Ness and Lucas aren't screwed now.

[Yuna]

F
We need to keep this distinction clear. A chain grab is no big deal, and infinite grab IS.

And please, don't say "Just don't get grabbed" because you'll be playing against a player who is doing nothing but trying to grab you so they can infinite grab you to death.

How is an infinite grab such a big deal. How? When the chaingrabs that end serve the same purpose as the infinite grabs since some of them do not require you to move forward and will end in a KO eventually?

The stalling aspect will be banned by default, keep this in mind.

Chaingrabs (like Dedede's on all the characters he could do it to except 5) only work for about 3-4 throws, then he'll reach the end of the stage, and you'll be able to do something again. The infinites actually are infinite, as in you can do it to 999% as long as you don't **** it up, no matter what your opponent does.

What aboutthose 5, then?

And again, this is irrelevant since you will be prohibited from using this to stall. DeDeDe's chaingrab on those 5 characters serve the exact same purpose as this Grab Release infinite.

You can avoid being jab locked just by playing well. Most competitive players will tech before they hit the ground from a slamming attack. However, you're overestimating yourself if you think you can go an entire match without being grabbed.

Anyway, *notices the topic title has been changed* I see some hope has popped up, but it's still a bleak situation. We'll just have to see how it works from here on.

"Just don't get into a situation where this can happen"... well we're only human. Someday, in a tournament somewhere, someone is gonna screw up at the wrong time... and I'm pretty sure it'll happen a lot.

Does this mean it's fair for them to then eat an infinite? Getting grab is just screwing up, only it's easy to scrub up like this.

I don't like people saying this somehow makes Brawl a game that isn't competitive. Even if Ness and Lucas join Ganondorf in the not-appropriate-for-tourneys list (still fine for friendlies), Brawl's roster of viable characters is still larger than Melee's. And Melee had a pretty big roster of tourney viable characters for a fighter.

What orintemple said.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Am I like the only person who plays more than 1 character or something?

If you don't want to get grab infinited, play someone other than Ness or Lucas vs. Marth and Pokemon Trainer. I know for a fact that they have other bad enough matchups without the infinite to warrant having a secondary anyway...

 

[Andromeda]

Well, I was against this first, but now I'm sure it won't be banned.

If you don't want to get grab infinited, play someone other than Ness or Lucas vs. Marth and Pokemon Trainer.

What he said.

 

[Yuna]

But It seems rather broken. It render a lot of the cast useless and others overpowered. Wouldn't it be better to remove it and return to balance.

We can't ban everything that imbalances the game even slightly. We can only ban things when they imbalance the game so greatly everyone would have to play as said character in order to even stand a chance of winning.

You did, you did. I was simply a skeptic after the first video release teaser, I actually started being pessimistic after the first very limited gameplay demo, the E For All I knew for sure this game was bad.

But we share common principles, so I'll be a nice guy and give you the title of grandmaster anti-brawl, since you certainly do the most work around here shutting brawl noobs up

Yes! All shall fear me! Fear me I say!

 

[SiegKnight]

I would wish this was inescapable, all of it except for 1 frame of jump imput where you could put the button in to get out of it, because I'd put all day into learning it and thus have an advantage with Lucas over everyone.

Cept, Smash community is full of whiners and would ban it if it had a 2/60 frame escape rate purely because some of them are sore losers and want to be on an equal and fair ground to people better than them.

Kidding. Thats honestly how it feels like, though I get the idea this probably has no jump escape frames at all.

Actually, would you ban it if that was the only way to get out of it?

 

[Luigi player]

So, what's the reason only Marth and PT can do it now? Was something found to escape it?

 

[Sundown]

it wont be banned, and ill alway switch to marth if i have to play a ness or lucas players.

Of course now ill have to at least get decent with marth but hey... its an advantage, why not just use it.

 

[BZZL]

So, what's the reason only Marth and PT can do it now? Was something found to escape it?

Look around page five or page six for the big red text.

Apparently, if you DI backwards as you're released from the grab, there IS enough time for you to jab, spot dodge, or whatever needed. I checked it out against a few characters and it does seem to work. Can't get it 100% of the time yet, but it's better than nothing.

 

[Luigi player]

Look around page five or page six for the big red text.

Apparently, if you DI backwards as you're released from the grab, there IS enough time for you to jab, spot dodge, or whatever needed. I checked it out against a few characters and it does seem to work. Can't get it 100% of the time yet, but it's better than nothing.

Oh, ok, thanks. I guess it's hard to time it right, but at least there is something. I'm glad Ness and Lucas aren't that screwed now, even if I don't like them too much.

 

[Twin Dreams]

Can't you still jump escape grabs? (Too lazy to read)

 

[Ills]

I guess not.

I mean I don't think the infinite is going to be that gamebreaking

People aren't gonna be deterred from playing Ness or Lucas at all. There's a thing called a counterpick. Taking into effect like, the stages and stuff it may not give the same results.

And apparently there were only Marth and PT that can do it, but I think that it won't be banned.

People didn't ban wobbling because only one character could do it, not to mention the enormous imput and difficulty that went into the infinite. Now, there are only two characters that can do it to Marth and only one that can do it to Lucas. Not to mention that it's not like the infinite isn't hold down one button and instarape.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Counterpicks look big in the future of Ness and Lucas players. And by the way, I re-checked this, and Lucas can also infinite himself. Lucas is also particularly vulnerable against Bowser, who has the smallest grab slide time and may as well have the ability to use an infinite due to how slowly you progress across the stage. Marth is the same, since against Lucas, he needs to take a step forwards to catch Lucas.

Ness still has it pretty bad though.

 

[thesage]

Wait, which characters can do it to Ness and which characters can do it to Lucas. I would like a definite list.

 

[choknater]

Hahah, I main Ice Climbers in both Melee and Brawl, people talking about banning infinites don't know anything about the game.

 

[Conda]

Poor chokonater.

 

[choknater]

In short, most infinites are not game-breaking.

I realize the question of whether or not they are game-breaking will always be perpetuated.

I already know why they are not, and I'd rather not get into it. The debate is pretty dumb.

I'm not the 'poor' one, buddy. And jeez, spell my name right.

 

[Conda]

Alright, we'll see how grabbing ends up in the metagame and whether or not it's much easier to grab in brawl than in melee. Cause I guess that's kind of hard to realize right now.
Otherwise, chain grabs in brawl should be treated the same as chain grabs in melee.

 

[Yuna]

Alright, we'll see how grabbing ends up in the metagame and whether or not it's much easier to grab in brawl than in melee. Cause I guess that's kind of hard to realize right now.
Otherwise, chain grabs in brawl should be treated the same as chain grabs in melee.

Didn't you say "What are you an idiot?! Stop bringing Melee chaingrabs up! This is not Melee!" and "This should be banned! Banned! Banned! Banned!"?

And you do know that no chaingrab in Melee was banned, right? Thus, you just defeated your own argument.

 

[Ulevo]

Alright, we'll see how grabbing ends up in the metagame and whether or not it's much easier to grab in brawl than in melee. Cause I guess that's kind of hard to realize right now.
Otherwise, chain grabs in brawl should be treated the same as chain grabs in melee.

You do realize Chain Grabs were perfectly legal in Melee, right?

 

[Jazriel]

This is stupid.

You should all realize how insanely difficult it is to pull off a wobble. Compare that to a simple grab -> mash A a lot -> dash grab with Marth. Not hard at all.


Think of it like this:

If there was a "cheat in the game" where if you pressed A then B then X then Y and Z for one frame and one frame after each other, it wouldn't be banned. Why? Because it's impossible to pull off.

If there was a "cheat in the game" where all you had to do was suicide and press L and R at the same time that you died, it would be banned asap. Why? Because that would be pathetically easy to do.


Any easy, non-technical, infinite should be banned. Other wise why don't we all go play a fighting game where whoever holds A the fastest at the start of the match wins? That's pretty easy and "infinite".

 

[ROOOOY!]

It should be banned, but it won't be at all. I think the pro players would happily let any competitive aspects of these two characters die, at tournaments anyway. I know it's 'play to win' and all that, but I don't regard it as at all fair. I mean, the Ness/Lucas player could be actually very good, but they get slaughtered by a fairly poor Marth who knows what he's doing.
And people say don't get grabbed, but chances are that you won't be able to avoid being grabbed if you're playing a semi-decent player at competitive level...
Meh.

 

[Conda]

You guys were reading my post wrong. Sorry for the confusion.
I said that we'll see if grabbing is easier to do in Brawl (cause it is) in order to see if chaingrabbing is more effecting and harder to avoid (which it is). I never said anything about chaingrabs being banned in melee. They weren't as effective in melee largely due to grabs being easier to avoid in melee than in brawl, where shieldgrabs are easy as pie to execute.
The advice "Don't get grabbed" is poor advice for skilled brawl players (assuming they don't camp).

 

[Lezard]

now that this is discover marth may have a chance againts my lucas. Just remember if you focuse your attention on one thing you ignore the rest, if you think u can depent on just infinate crab to you are a fool

 

[Yuna]

This is stupid.

You should all realize how insanely difficult it is to pull off a wobble. Compare that to a simple grab -> mash A a lot -> dash grab with Marth. Not hard at all..

How many times must I say this?

How hard it is to do (technically) is of no consequence to Competitive play. As long as it's humanly possible to do, it doesn't matter if it's just pressing Z or doing whatever ICs do to Wobble!

The end results are still the same. How often do you see really skilled IC-players mess up Wobbling? Almost never, that's how often. They learned it because it wasn't banned. They do it because it isn't banned. This being easier does in no way warrant it to be banned if it's not even as good as Wobbling (though Wobbling has more requirements).

Whether something should be banned or not should only be based on how broken it is, not ease to do!

Stuff

Read up on Competitive play and why we ban things, please. Ease of performance plays no part in the matter.

 

[br4n]

bottomtierlol

 

[br4n]

also , everything yuna says is win.

 

[Conda]

How many times must I say this?

How hard it is to do (technically) is of no consequence to Competitive play. As long as it's humanly possible to do, it doesn't matter if it's just pressing Z or doing whatever ICs do to Wobble!

The end results are still the same. How often do you see really skilled IC-players mess up Wobbling? Almost never, that's how often. They learned it because it wasn't banned. They do it because it isn't banned. This being easier does in no way warrant it to be banned if it's not even as good as Wobbling (though Wobbling has more requirements).

Your logic is perfectly fine, but a little misplaced.
Not a lot of players (if any) who didn't main/secondary IC chose them to wobble for a good matchup. The difficulty of the technique made it possible to do consistently with hardly any chance of error if you were very good at melee or if you mained/secondaried ICs.
Don't compare wobbling to pressing Z and A. One can do Marth's/PT's chaingrab with no chance of error with hardly any practice at all, which could possibly result in everyone switching to Marth/PT when they are against a Ness.

By the way, in other topics you seem to think I'm still for an exclusive ban on this chaingrab. I'm not. I'm only for it if other infinite/semi-infinite tier-affecting chaingrabs get banned. Grabbing is way too easy in brawl and chaingrabs shouldn't be treated the same way as chaingrabs in melee.

 

[Zereberus]

Um....this may be a noob post but I was playing against someone who grabs a lot, and I just keep wiggling out of it. I think the weird thing is that my ness jumps while he is evading. Do you all know about this? It stops the consistant grab. I will keep testing it though.

 

[The_NZA]

People who are drawing parallels to IC's Wobbles, let me just make a CLEAR point. In Melee, everyone was more or less using Fox and Falco, so many of the techniques that weren't banned often affected the cast that weren't these two characters. That kind of bias was severely prominent. But even further, you cant draw these kinds of parallels between the two games since the techniques and physics between the two games were so different. Sure, say all you want "JUst dont get grabbed. Thats what we did against the ICs", but remember, that was a different game. For all of you fox and falco players, dair->Lcancel->shine->dair were great ways to not get grabbed. Those same skills dont exist in brawl. Never being grabbed in a match is near impossible if your opponent is marth and is intent on grabbing you. But even further, what I feel like is that the many who are saying "No" to a ban are simply clinging to their characters unsympathetic to the whims and desires to Lucas and Ness players. Lucas and Ness are GOOD characters in this game. They shouldn't be rendered so obsolete.

 

[The_NZA]

Fine! If we have to defend every infinite out there to get some credence, let me start the list.

1. Wobbles from Melee:
a. Different game, different physics. Falco and Fox had an easy time lcanceling, and the stress on an offensive game made it possible to never get get grabbed. Never being grabbed was MUCH more possible. Even further, the rules were different. You had 4 stock, not 3, so losing a stock to a good grab game due to a mistake was more replenisheable, not to mention almost every melee character had an equal amount of infinite combos on their opponents.

b. Nana and Popo are SEPARATE CHARACTERS. Kill Nana and you wouldn't get wobbled. In the ness marth scenario, it doesn't matter what situation marth is in. All it takes is a grab.

c. Many tourneys DID ban Wobbling. As for the person saying there were melee counter pick stages with perma-walls. Just go back to the stage legality topic for melee and look at the melee select screen that is highlighted based on legality. Corneria is half yellow AND half red. Princess's castle is half yellow AND half red. These could be considered banned at major tourneys, depending.

2. Jab Locking/Laser Locking:
These are FAR more situational than simply never being grabbed. A player has to miss a tech, and a falco player has to start up the lasers fast enough for the player to not roll. AND EVEN THEN it isn't an infinite. There is an end of the stage. This is a chain. Maybe it deals too much damage. So fine, let this be a place where we can put a nail into the coffin of all infinties. Ban Laser locking. Its certainly possible.

As far as Jab locking goes. Beyond the situational nature, it doesn't do that much damage. Most characters who can do it still have a decent amount of knock back with their initial a move. It does maybe 50-60%, and even that is super situational.

3. Chainthrows against a wall:
a. Many of the stages where there are walls aren't perma walls. They go away after a while.
b. Many stages with perma walls are banned
c. I'm willing to ADVOCATE for not allowing infinite throws against walls, since I personally think stages like Shadow Moses have a lot of skill to showcase on behalf of the players. Having a solid tech game and an ability to kill only vertically is in my opinion, fair grounds to counter pick. Infinites/Chain throwing against a wall should be banned.

I can do more, just throw them out at me, and for those who care, they should also feel free to add to the list. And btw, those who say it "couldnt' be enforced", lighten up. Not every rule needs to be approached in a Machiavellian State based manner. It isn't a "I SAW YOU DO IT ONCE, WE ARE GOIN TO BAN YOU!". The point is, once you put something into law, people feel obligated to follow it. Especially if there is their money on the line. A Ban will deter people from doing it. Not banning it wont do jack. I bet you though, if you ban it, we will hear far less about this then we will if you decide not to, and if that becomes the case, a marth player will have no qualms with repeatedly doing it. At least if it were banned, they would be forced not to be so obvious about it.