NC Brocator Thread: **** Smash.

[DJRome]

aight guys. anyone is free to come over all day tomorrow after 11:30. im free all day after that.

and as a side note: sheik on the phone spells 74345 which is contained in the digits of pi starting with the 64405th decimal place. 64405 is contained in the digits of pi starting with the 21075th decimal place. 21075 is contained in the digits of pi starting with the 62823rd decimal place. 62823 spells ncube on the phone. clearly sheik is the best character in melee

edit: the first instance of xbox on the phone occurs at the 1474th decimal place. and it repeats every 15000-25000 places. gamecube doesn't start until the 38,394,642nd decimal place. playstation doesn't exist. this is why gamecubes now are rarest of the three

 

[theAPExp]

with your previous arguments
that validates ganon being the best in the game
but
we all knew that

anyway i'll be in boone this weekend for all the random boone area people who play smash and lurk these threads but never post

 

[DJRome]

so many rare candies.

my tier list as of today:

fox-10.0
jiggs-9.7
falco-9.2
marth-9.0
sheik-8.7
peach-8.6
ganon-8.5
ics-8.49
falcon-8.3

 

[lord karn]

it's funny how much I agree with that.

 

[-ACE-]

Fox Falco Jiggs Sheik Marth Falcon Peach Ganon Samus ICs Doc :>

Brocating: So who's coming to the beach to play smash today?

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i'll be in wilmington packing ?

as for the broboro bro's, i'm coming back tomorrow. behr, just be ready for a lot of spaced bairs all up on that pokemon's face.

i'ma shove that pocket monster RIGHT IN MY BACK POCKET. where it belongs.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Falco is sooooooo bad. =p

Rawfuls, I'm giving you a call about smashing at Seven's today.

 

[ZIO]

Maybe I should just start readin . . . but I don't wanna. Sheik and Martha are pretty low. I was always in the mindset Marth was a good character to play against Fox, of any of the spacies. The only thing with Falco is his lasers, but a bad laserer, you have, like three options to get around them.

And ganondorf is so **** high. I wanna know why you put him up there, so high.

 

[lord karn]

Well, I think puff beats falco, and falco also loses to peach, I think. I think Puff's only true bad matchup is fox, but doc and marth can be annoying, I suppose.

1. Fox
2. Puff
3. Falco
4. Marth
5. Sheik
6. Peach
7. Captain Falcon
8. Ice Climbers
9. Ganon
10. Doc
11. Samus
12. Doesn't matter

edit: fixed

 

[stingers]

falco beats puff?

poor pp

 

[lord karn]

Oops, that was supposed to be the other way around.

 

[DJRome]

well, my theory is that only the top 6 really matter at all. but ganon goes 55-45 at most with peach, fox, falco, jiggs, marth. maybe loses to falco a little more but not much. and loses to sheik about the same as cf. and cf loses to sheik and falco by even more than ganon and loses to fox more than ganon. and ics lose without wobbling to all high tiers except sheik is around even

 

[-ACE-]

Don't even try preaching about Ganon's matchups, lol.

 

[ZIO]

Maybe I'm just think at it the wrong way. just because Marth is 4 spots down doesn't mean the battle is almost as even as it is with fox. Just that there's a SMALL marginal difference, giving them their spots.

But Ganon? Although he has such great power and whatnot, don't you think he has too much going against him to be up there? How ever you look at it, Ganon is one of the slower characters in that list, and here we are talking about a character in their best performance. People still miss the L-cancel at times (PP done it, too, when he came to RM).

But hey, I don't know enough of Ganondorf to be making ANY judgments.

 

[stingers]

ganon loses to fox like 40-60
and even with falco
and even with marth
loses to shiek like 45-55
loses to peach like 45-55
even with falcon

from what i know from jim?

 

[-ACE-]

Ganon's worst matchup is Sheik or a top level Fox.
Ganon loses to Falco, Falcon, Puff
Even with Peach, and close to even with Marth.
Chars that do very good against Ganon but still lose: the marios, luigi, link, IC's, samus, and a few others

 

[lord karn]

Fox beats puff, goes even with falco (loses on maybe one level), even with marth (loses on a couple levels), beats sheik, beats peach, beats cf, beats ics, beats ganon, beats doc, beats samus.

Puff loses to fox, beats falco, even with marth, beats sheik, even with peach, even with cf, even with ics, even with ganon, loses (maybe) to doc, beats samus

Falco goes even with fox (level dependent), loses to puff, even with marth (level dependent), beats sheik, loses to peach, ***** cf, even with ics, beats ganon, beats doc, beats samus

Marth goes even with fox (level dependent), goes even with puff, goes even with falco (level dependent), loses to sheik, beats peach, goes even with cf, beats ics, even with ganon, ***** doc, ***** samus

Sheik loses to fox, loses to puff, loses to falco, beats marth, beats peach, ***** cf, even with ics, ***** ganon, ***** doc, ***** samus

Peach loses to fox, even with puff, beats falco, loses to marth, loses to sheik, even with cf, ***** ics, even with ganon, beats doc, beats samus

Captain falcon loses to fox, goes even with puff, gets ***** by falco, goes even with marth, gets ***** by sheik, beats ics, beats ganon, even with doc, beats samus

Ics lose to fox, go even with puff, go even with falco, loses to marth, go even with sheik, get ***** by peach, lose to captain falcon, beat ganon?, beat doc, go even with samus

Ganon loses to fox, goes even with puff, loses to falco, goes even with marth, gets ***** by sheik, goes even with peach, loses to cf, loses to ics, even with doc?, beats samus

 

[Dr Peepee]

Wut da hayulllll @ some of those, Stongers.

I have no idea what Falco vs Puff is. I'll probably have a number after Pound.

Doc, Fox, Marth, and Y Link all give puff trouble.

After that, it just depends on what one wants to consider when making a tier list.

Edit: I thought ICs lost to Puff?

I thought Ganon lost to Puff?

I believe Falco slightly loses to Marth.

 

[stingers]

i'm no expert on ganon matchups, just what i know from playing jim @.@

 

[lord karn]

Also, my list is made with the primary criterion as ability to win a tournament; it does not correlate perfectly to placing after that. If that were the case, puff would be lower than falco and marth.

Hbox has said before that chudat is one of the people he is most worried about in tournaments. I'm sure it's a matchup that ics have to play really differently, which is why so many ics might think it's terrible.

I would put puff vs ylink and doc and marth in that category as well. Those matches are really difficult or weird for the puff to play, but if the puff plays them right I think they are even or in puff's favor.

I don't really know about puff vs. ganon, honestly, but it seems like it would be even to me. It seems like upair can can combat bair spamming from puffs, so the approach for either should be able to be forced into a guessing game.

Falco just has to play really carefully against marth. Definitely much more risk:reward for falco than for marth, but I think it's even. However, I think marth wins on fd, yoshi's, and fod. Falco wins on dreamland and PS. Even on battlefield.

 

[Dr Peepee]

"Ability to win a tournament"? You're going by character potential then?

Just because Hbox said that doesn't mean it's bad for Puff. I had an example after this point but it seemed silly. I guess it's whatever.

M2K and Mango both say Marth vs Puff is even but it's a patience match.

Supposedly both Ganon and Puff just need to Bair each other. Dunno what it should be though. I'm just figuring Puff can maneuver her quick moves in on Ganon's slower moves sometimes.

I guess you can think Falco vs Marth is even if you want. It's fairly close anyway.

 

[stingers]

jiggs bair outranges ganons, also jiggs bair has a bigger disjoint on the end (though they're both pretty small)

 

[lord karn]

Yeah, character potential. For instance, if you have an even number of players with all characters and they are all at the top level of play, the character who has the 'greatest chance of winning the tournament' should be the one that is the best. After Peach, I don't think any of those characters have real potential to actually win a big tournament with other character representation. Fox is the obvious choice for best. The other characters below him until falcon have no fundamentally bad matchups; so they all have a chance to win and I think my list sets them up in order of the best chance. You can also think of it as a list that organizes the characters in order of how beneficial it is to be able to play them. Say you theoretically are playing a character with a random assortment of good and bad matchups (IE a character outside of the metagame). If that was the case, picking up fox would always be statistically the best choice to cover as many matchups as possible (with the matchups scaled in importance according to the tier list), with puff always being the next, etc.

However, there can never be such a hypothetical character that has random matchups. Still, thinking in such a way, as if you are trying to select the best character to second without knowing what the original main is, is the only way to create a standard of value in such a system. However, after the system has been established and fox is the best, you can re-evaluate the system and say that in terms of character potential that whoever covers fox's bad matchups is the second best, and so on, because the highest potential would be a player who mained fox and seconded character b, etc. However, it only gets more complicated and stupid from here so I'll stop now.

It doesn't mean that, but if you think about the matchup I can think of ways the ics could get hits on puff. A lot of ics think it's hard because of the difficulty. However, if wobbling is legal it's still a kill off a grab, and I'm pretty sure they have other guaranteed grab combos but they're just really hard to do, like alt grabbing and some of the other weird stuff fly amantia does probably works, too.

 

[stingers]

you know whats scary?

there are a lot of people who just know lozr as dr.pp's teammate.

 

[Criosphinx]

That's sad truth, Stingers.

Lozr is gonna place so well people are gonna piss.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

bl@ckchris has no bad matchups.

he ***** ALL WHO OPPOSE HIM.

next discussion.

 

[DtJ SmithZzz]

Besides me.

 

[Ocean]

I'm going to be in ashville this weekend.

 

[DJRome]

i think the best way to determine a tier list based on matchups is for accurate matchup matrix to be created. then, each total is redone with weighting and that process is looped until the matchup list no longer moves

 

[Lightsyde]

In my opinion:

Falcon goes even with Ganon. This is just my personal experience. There are very few videos (none that I can recall right off hand) that show any differently. Falcon's combos are devastating though Ganon survives knees fairly well with good DI, and wizard kicks and the giant UpB range make it hard for Falcon to stop Ganon in any kind of typical/safe fashion. Additionally, Falcon's speed can overwhelm Ganon. Ganon however has a lot of really good tech chase options and amazingly effective edgeguarding (Uair, Dair, Fair). Ganon's jab also makes approaching drastically more difficult. There's more to add but I've already rambled to much on this. 50/50

Falcon loses to IC's. Match cited: Darkrain vs Wobbles http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dn0Dnq5gLg8
To be fair, Darkrain got FoD as the neutral but he only won the second match because IC's suck on Rainbow Cruise. At the end of the set, Darkrain switches to Fox, which says a lot. The chain grab is too good because of Falcon's weight and edge guarding is easy due to Falcon's awful recovery. Additionally, Dsmash ***** Falcon. Falcon's saving graces in the matchup are SideB's and stomps but without a grab game (grabbing typically gets punished if Nana is still alive) and Nairs (pokes typically involve getting grabbed in the matchup) Falcon tends to be limited until he gets an opening, which is true for most of his matchups but especially bad in this one. I say that because in most of his other matchups, a grab can lead to either death or a lot of damage (Fox, Falco, Marth, Peach). It's true you have to play very differently, and it's not an impossible matchup but I'd say 55/45 at best in IC's favor, and 60/40 at worst.

K, I'm done.

EDIT: Adam and I are playing today. Hopefully going to get ***** a little less than usual or (more likely) a lot more because he's hyped for Pound.

 

[~Twitch~]

That's sad truth, Stingers.

Lozr is gonna place so well people are gonna piss.

dr peepee's patients.

 

[Ocean]

dr peepee's patients.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urology

 

[~Twitch~]

ewww, it's talking about urine, that's yucky.

 

[-ACE-]

Falcon goes even with Ganon. This is just my personal experience. There are very few videos (none that I can recall right off hand) that show any differently. Falcon's combos are devastating though Ganon survives knees fairly well with good DI, and wizard kicks and the giant UpB range make it hard for Falcon to stop Ganon in any kind of typical/safe fashion. Additionally, Falcon's speed can overwhelm Ganon. Ganon however has a lot of really good tech chase options and amazingly effective edgeguarding (Uair, Dair, Fair). Ganon's jab also makes approaching drastically more difficult. There's more to add but I've already rambled to much on this. 50/50

It's hard to go off vids, but Kage vs Darkrain MM and Linguini vs Hax friendlies come to mind, both of which show Falcon getting the slight upper hand on Ganon. Not to mention that those are the undisputed 2 top Ganons in the world, and both of which are BEAST vs Falcon (I believe those 2 Ganons are closer to being "Falcon slayers" than any Falcon is to being a "Ganon slayer"). I also don't know if Kage has ever beat Hax in tournament, and I know Hax has beat Kage more than once.

With edgeguarding it's pretty simple, either character in the matchup is dead as soon as they are offstage (unless they are really high up). If you make it back, your opponent either fell for a simple mindgame or they flat out messed up. I can elaborate upon request.

Ganon does have great techchasing options vs fastfallers, but he doesn't have something automatic like Falcon has on Ganon (uthrow + knee starting around 80%).

Ganon's jab is pretty ****, but it doesn't always do the trick on a well spaced Falcon nair, and trading hits with the knee is baaaad lol. ftilt is just as good as jab or better.

Basically Falcon's nair is an insanely good approach and Ganon is one of the easiest chars in the game to combo lol.

My take = Falcon wins like 57/43... lol

 

[AlcyoNite]

It's hard to go off vids, but Kage vs Darkrain MM and Linguini vs Hax friendlies come to mind, both of which show Falcon getting the slight upper hand on Ganon. Not to mention that those are the undisputed 2 top Ganons in the world, and both of which are BEAST vs Falcon (I believe those 2 Ganons are closer to being "Falcon slayers" than any Falcon is to being a "Ganon slayer"). I also don't know if Kage has ever beat Hax in tournament, and I know Hax has beat Kage more than once.

With edgeguarding it's pretty simple, either character in the matchup is dead as soon as they are offstage (unless they are really high up). If you make it back, your opponent either fell for a simple mindgame or they flat out messed up. I can elaborate upon request.

Ganon does have great techchasing options vs fastfallers, but he doesn't have something automatic like Falcon has on Ganon (uthrow + knee starting around 80%).

Ganon's jab is pretty ****, but it doesn't always do the trick on a well spaced Falcon nair, and trading hits with the knee is baaaad lol. ftilt is just as good as jab or better.

Basically Falcon's nair is an insanely good approach and Ganon is one of the easiest chars in the game to combo lol.

My take = Falcon wins like 57/43... lol

A solid argument. I approve.

 

[Lightsyde]

I'm going to do something I rarely do and accept that Falcon has one decent high tier match up. Good ****, Dave.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Ganon isn't high tier though, so you're still in the clear, Josh.

 

[-ACE-]

<3 Josh

 

[~Twitch~]

hey crystal...i've never seen you before, we should play sometime,

 

[Lightsyde]

Hahahaha YES, thanks Kevin. I was ever so worried for a minute.

And <3 Dave. Come to something soon buddy. We gotsta play.

And Theo, team with me at the next Duke Biweekly.