Official Mysterious Arsenal - Greninja Information & AT Thread

[ZeroWhiteRei]

Trust me, this is a technique people could use. I could easily see people SS'ing out of shield during a tournament. I should try applying it to a battle and upload a vid of it later.

Check this:
*sorry about the bad quality :B*

I couldn't belive it killed that early lol! now i guess it can be pretty solid punish for laggy moves

Now with ATs! 9 ATs have been added to the Mysterious Arsenal OP.

I added quite a few Shadow Sneak ATs, UAir Spiking, Hydro Bubble and SHFF Nair for this first batch!

Thanks for that.
btw, can you update the information about out of shield SS? It turned out that you can perform SS out of shield without running too.
All you have to do inside your shield is to press left or right + B at the same time very quickly (Or just slide the C-Stick left or right if it's assigned to special moves). The video above shows it.

 

[NinjaLink]

Check this:
*sorry about the bad quality :B*

I couldn't belive it killed that early lol! now i guess it can be pretty solid punish for laggy moves




Thanks for that.
btw, can you update the information about out of shield SS? It turned out that you can perform SS out of shield without running too.
All you have to do inside your shield is to press left or right + B at the same time very quickly (Or just slide the C-Stick left or right if it's assigned to special moves). The video above shows it.

I was gonna make a Tech Vid right now for the rest of the SS ATs. I'm tryin to get the timing for the running SS now. Its very strange.

 

[Gunla]

Check this:
*sorry about the bad quality :B*

I couldn't belive it killed that early lol! now i guess it can be pretty solid punish for laggy moves




Thanks for that.
btw, can you update the information about out of shield SS? It turned out that you can perform SS out of shield without running too.
All you have to do inside your shield is to press left or right + B at the same time very quickly (Or just slide the C-Stick left or right if it's assigned to special moves). The video above shows it.

It has been updated; I also placed an embed to your post (the one I am quoting) for those who like a video.

 

[IcyFlamz96]

Any tips on getting the shorthop/fast fall d/nair stuff down? What order should I be doing everything exactly? I'm new to trying to use short hops and fast falling in general, so any general nuances I should know about it? Like for one, I noticed if you are already on a descent, you only have to press down once to fast fall, but if you're still ascending, then you have to do it twice.

Also I have no Idea how to fight ZSS

 

[MartinAW4]

Any tips on getting the shorthop/fast fall d/nair stuff down? What order should I be doing everything exactly? I'm new to trying to use short hops and fast falling in general, so any general nuances I should know about it? Like for one, I noticed if you are already on a descent, you only have to press down once to fast fall, but if you're still ascending, then you have to do it twice.

Also I have no Idea how to fight ZSS

There are 3 steps to perform a SHFF Nair:
1) Short Hop: Press the jump button for a very short time. If you let go of the button fast enough, you will jump about half as high compared to your full hop.
2) Nair: Press the attack button at the apex of your short hop.
3) Fast Fall: Immediately after performing the Nair, hold down on the circle pad. It always activates after you to press down only once, but the earliest you can start the fast fall is after reaching the apex of your short hop. You cannot fast fall while still rising during a jump.

If you perform these steps with the correct timing, the result will be you jumping about one character height, the Nair hitbox will appear at the apex of your jump and will last throughout the rest of the jump until you land on the ground where it autocancels very quickly and allows you to repeat it again. It is so fast that it even truly combos into itself at around 50-80% as well as Usmash, Utilt, Fair, Uair and almost every other move Greninja has.

A good way to practice it is to play against a lv.9 CPU using only SHFF Nair until you can beat it easily every time. Then you can try to incorporate it into your gameplay (shouldn`t be hard, it is in my opinion Greninja`s best approach tool) and test it against human opponents.

 

[IcyFlamz96]

Ok I've been practicing quite a bit. I beat a level 9 fox once with only using it so far lol.

 

[MartinAW4]

Ok I've been practicing quite a bit. I beat a level 9 fox once with only using it so far lol.

Good job! Lv.9 CPUs don`t know how to deal with SHFF Nair approaches, so you can spam them until you win. If you beat a lv.9 fox with it, I think you`ve mastered the technique well enough to use it against human opponents. Just be careful in For Glory matches because the lag often messes up your timing.

 

[Ekans647]

Good job! Lv.9 CPUs don`t know how to deal with SHFF Nair approaches, so you can spam them until you win. If you beat a lv.9 fox with it, I think you`ve mastered the technique well enough to use it against human opponents. Just be careful in For Glory matches because the lag often messes up your timing.

I want to learn this as well, so should I use the jump button, or tap up on the circle pad?

 

[Alphamew17]

I want to learn this as well, so should I use the jump button, or tap up on the circle pad?

Jump button. You can just slide off it, that's what a lot of people tend to to do (although I prefer quickly pressing it). Tap jump messes with your ability to do up-tilt, which can be crucial for some characters. I highly recommend turning it off.

 

[wizardto1]

Is it just me or could you hit your opponent with the log /doll when it's flying away. I could have sworn I did this when I hit it with a smash attack?

Edit: Yay, 500th post!

 

[Makani]

So I don't know if this is common knowledge at this point, but i've found you can get a better timing for Sprinting Shadow Sneak by Foxtrotting atleast once. I've been able to do it more consistently out of a Foxtrot than just doing it on an initial dash.
So the input would be: (dash) + (before the initial dash startup ends, and hold) +

I like to call it FooTSieS (FTSS).

 

[IcyFlamz96]

Good job! Lv.9 CPUs don`t know how to deal with SHFF Nair approaches, so you can spam them until you win. If you beat a lv.9 fox with it, I think you`ve mastered the technique well enough to use it against human opponents. Just be careful in For Glory matches because the lag often messes up your timing.

Yup I've used it a bit against humans. I tend to mess up a LOT more often, normally by doing full jumps instead of short hopping, but a few games I've been on with it and it definitely helps.

So I don't know if this is common knowledge at this point, but i've found you can get a better timing for Sprinting Shadow Sneak by Foxtrotting atleast once. I've been able to do it more consistently out of a Foxtrot than just doing it on an initial dash.
So the input would be: (dash) + (before the initial dash startup ends, and hold) +

I like to call it FooTSieS (FTSS).

I think i'm doing it, but I'd need to see a demonstration to be sure. What's the practicality though? What do you mean by better timing?

 

[Makani]

I think i'm doing it, but I'd need to see a demonstration to be sure. What's the practicality though? What do you mean by better timing?

You'll be able to run while shadow sneaking. Without it, you can only walk during shadow sneak.

 

[Lavani]

Meant to bring this up at least a month ago but forgot about it; fsmash (and I think fair, but I have no evidence of it) whiffs close range against certain characters in certain states. As far as I've found, it only whiffs when Greninja is facing right, which strikes me as rather odd considering he always starts his swing from the foreground regardless of facing.

Some examples:
Robin facing left (Greninja still hits if facing left himself, and does so for all these examples)
Lucina landing
Lucina facing right
Lucina using Counter while facing right
Zelda facing right

 

[NinjaLink]

Meant to bring this up at least a month ago but forgot about it; fsmash (and I think fair, but I have no evidence of it) whiffs close range against certain characters in certain states. As far as I've found, it only whiffs when Greninja is facing right, which strikes me as rather odd considering he always starts his swing from the foreground regardless of facing.

Some examples:
Robin facing left (Greninja still hits if facing left himself, and does so for all these examples)
Lucina landing
Lucina facing right
Lucina using Counter while facing right
Zelda facing right

This pissed me off to no end. This happened so much im thinking wtf do I do?! Dsmash also has this issue also of whiffing through people.

 

[KERO]

I know that if Rosalina is facing backwards against Greninja and he uses Fsmash right up next to her, it whiffs her entirely somehow. The dead spot is the most irritating thing in the world to me lol. Honestly, I feel that Dsmash works better for characters falling into you.

 

[Lavani]

Didn't take long in training to figure out fair has an even worse blind spot than fsmash.

Looking at the data, fsmash has a hitbox on Greninja's hand while fair's are strictly on the blade, so I guess it makes sense.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Well, you just gotta practice spacing it correctly then.

 

[IcyFlamz96]

So how do you even do that reverse water shuriken thing that I always hear about

 

[Alphamew17]

So how do you even do that reverse water shuriken thing that I always hear about

Reverse B: after entering neutral b, IMMEDIATELY enter the direction you're not facing. A lot of characters get some movement out of this, like lucario and Mario.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

Just finished reading through the four pages during which I was inactive. Whew! After giving up Greninja for a bit and going to the promised Elysian fields of Sheik and Diddy Kong, I came back after finding such claims not right for me. I basically came back because I feel that Greninja's playstyle as described by Kero is perfect. I use him as an elusive shadow that darts back and forth, testing his opponent with shurikens while baiting the foolhardy move to land a punishing slap of water to the face.

Essentially, I find Greninja's playstyle to be based around punishes. My goal throughout any game is to annoy the hell out of the opponent until they overreact. If they don't, I make them eat damage anyways. My gameplan is to use Jab and Dtilt to poke at the opponent while throwing out well-timed shurikens to cut the opponent's approach short. Using shurikens too much and predictably is often a Greninja's death because it has annoying ending lag and can't be spammed too often. However, I find it very demoralizing to be hit by a random shuriken and be placed in the situation where I have to watch out for the next one without knowing where it'll come from. After a while of pulling the heartstrings, I charge in with a SHFF Nair -> Jab -> Grab -> etc to land a solid combo and continue to make the opponent weep. Mix that in with a well-timed SS and you'll get a sweet kill on your opponent while furthering the uncertainty factor.
tl;dr Don't be afraid to play like a *****.

 

[Lavani]

Thumbing through data out of boredom and some testing to confirm in-game has led me to discover that, strictly in terms of reach and not counting tether grabs, we have the #1 #2 ranged standing and dash grabs and #4 pivot grab, outranged by Bowser DK and Villager, in that order.

The poor frame data on Greninja's standing and pivot grabs makes sense now...but our dash grab is just straight-up amazing.

EDIT: I jumped the gun a bit, Villager's standing grab barely outranges Greninja's. Still a huge grab range.

 

[MartinAW4]

Thumbing through data out of boredom and some testing to confirm in-game has led me to discover that, strictly in terms of reach and not counting tether grabs, we have the #1 #2 ranged standing and dash grabs and #4 pivot grab, outranged by Bowser DK and Villager, in that order.

The poor frame data on Greninja's standing and pivot grabs makes sense now...but our dash grab is just straight-up amazing.

EDIT: I jumped the gun a bit, Villager's standing grab barely outranges Greninja's. Still a huge grab range.

The dash grab is awesome. It might be the best in the game when you couple it with Greninja`s great speed. But I would have preferred a shorter and faster standing grab since with 14 frames of start-up it`s hard to shield grab some moves with low lag.

 

[FullMoon]

Maining Greninja makes playing with other characters a bit harder to get used to just because of how good Greninja's dash grab is compared to the rest =P

 

[MartinAW4]

I took a closer look at Greninja`s grabs compared to the other characters` grabs and I noticed something very interesting. It seems that Sakurai accidentally switched the frame data for Greninja`s standing and dash grabs. There are 2 main reasons which make me think this:
1) Greninja is the only character in the game aside from Yoshi whose standing grab is slower than his dash grab.
2) Greninja`s standing grab is arguably the worst grab in the game in terms of start-up lag/range ratio while his dash grab is arguably the best in the game. But if their frame data got switched, they would both be around average.

I also noticed that Greninja has the second weakest Ftilt in the game, only stronger than Sheik`s which deals only 4 damage. But because of its great combo-ability, you never actually land Sheik`s Ftilt alone, so it`s basically an extra 4 damage to any move you can combo out of it.
So overall, it seems that Greninja has the worst Ftilt in the game with high start-up lag (same as Ganon`s and Bowser`s Ftilt), huge end lag (almost as much as its Fsmash), extremely low damage (6.5%) and at low % it can even be punished on hit.

And Greninja`s Nair has the third highest start-up lag in the game (12 frames). Only Shulk`s (13 frames) and Rob`s (18 frames) Nairs are slower, but their range is much better.

So if Sakurai decides to release another patch, I think these are the main moves he should focus on aside from the obviously malfunctioning ones like Uair and Usmash that need their hitboxes fixed:
- Standing Grab should become frame 9 as most likely originally intended.
- Ftilt should get a 2% damage buff to 8.5 damage and the end lag should be 5 frames shorter from 40 to 35 frames.
- Nair should get its start-up lag reduced by at least 3 frames from 12 frames to 9 frames.

 

[Lavani]

I'm pretty sure his grab frame data is intentional. Greninja overall has poor defensive options and strong offensive options, so a terrible standing grab but S tier dash grab makes sense.

Ftilt is booty though, I certainly wouldn't mind that getting buffed.

 

[AlexAnthonyD]

Maining Greninja makes playing with other characters a bit harder to get used to just because of how good Greninja's dash grab is compared to the rest =P

Not if one of your alternates is Captain Falcon who's Dash Grab is just ridiculous. It makes Greninja look like a snail not a frog.

 

[MartinAW4]

I'm pretty sure his grab frame data is intentional. Greninja overall has poor defensive options and strong offensive options, so a terrible standing grab but S tier dash grab makes sense.

Ftilt is booty though, I certainly wouldn't mind that getting buffed.

I`m not so sure. There are many other characters with bad defensive and strong offensive options and none of them have a slower standing grab than dash grab. And actually Greninja`s defensive options other than OoS options aren`t that bad at all. He has a good projectile in Water Shuriken, Hydro Pump for safe landings, Shadow Sneak for safely returning to the stage, a counter for situations when shielding won`t help and good spacing aerials with disjointed hitboxes in Fair and Nair.

There`s also the fact that the frame difference between dash grab and pivot grab is between 0-2 frames for every single character in the game except Greninja who has a difference of 6 frames (frame 9 dash grab and frame 15 pivot grab) which would only be 1 frame if dash grab and standing grab had their frame data switched.

 

[AlexAnthonyD]

Meant to bring this up at least a month ago but forgot about it; fsmash (and I think fair, but I have no evidence of it) whiffs close range against certain characters in certain states. As far as I've found, it only whiffs when Greninja is facing right, which strikes me as rather odd considering he always starts his swing from the foreground regardless of facing.

Some examples:
Robin facing left (Greninja still hits if facing left himself, and does so for all these examples)
Lucina landing
Lucina facing right
Lucina using Counter while facing right
Zelda facing right

I would never have thought to go for a FSmash at those distances before. This is grab/jab/tilt territory. Add a bit of space and you won't have this issue and you will be using FSmash properly as well. His hit boxes have more launch closer to the tip anyway.

 

[Lavani]

I`m not so sure. There are many other characters with bad defensive and strong offensive options and none of them have a slower standing grab than dash grab. And actually Greninja`s defensive options other than OoS options aren`t that bad at all. He has a good projectile in Water Shuriken, Hydro Pump for safe landings, Shadow Sneak for safely returning to the stage, a counter for situations when shielding won`t help and good spacing aerials with disjointed hitboxes in Fair and Nair.

There`s also the fact that the frame difference between dash grab and pivot grab is between 0-2 frames for every single character in the game except Greninja who has a difference of 6 frames (frame 9 dash grab and frame 15 pivot grab) which would only be 1 frame if dash grab and standing grab had their frame data switched.

That isn't exactly what I meant by bad defensive options. He doesn't have quick options out of shield, and he doesn't have fast aerials like Luigi's nair that can be used to poke out of juggles. At neutral he can certainly play a defensive game well, he just doesn't have those quick tools to deal with pressure.

Which I feel reinforces the point that his standing grab is supposed to be slow.

His hit boxes have more launch closer to the tip anyway.

Hitbox_026(ID=0x0, GID=0x0, Bone=0x19, Damage=14.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x63, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x1E, Size=3.500000, Z=0.000000, Y=-6.500000, X=0.000000, Element=0x2, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0, 0x2, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0xA, )
Hitbox_026(ID=0x1, GID=0x0, Bone=0x19, Damage=14.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x63, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x1E, Size=3.500000, Z=0.000000, Y=-2.500000, X=0.000000, Element=0x2, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0, 0x2, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0xA, )
Hitbox_026(ID=0x2, GID=0x0, Bone=0x17, Damage=14.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x63, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x1E, Size=3.000000, Z=0.000000, Y=-1.500000, X=1.000000, Element=0x2, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0, 0x2, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0xA, )

I can promise you that isn't true.

 

[AlexAnthonyD]

I believe you that what you say is true. But care to translate that from code to English?

 

[Spirst]

Those are the hitboxes for fsmash which, if you see, have the same values for knockback growth (KBG)/base knockback (BKB). This makes it uniform throughout the move rather than the tip having more launch power.

 

[MartinAW4]

@ Lavani
Yeah, I agree that having a slow standing grab fits Greninja`s style, but a frame 9 standing grab isn`t exactly fast either. Most characters` grabs are frame 6, and having a frame 9 standing grab would still put Greninja among the bottom 10 characters in terms of grab speed (including characters with tether grabs). So Greninja would still have a slow standing grab, it just wouldn`t be the horrible tether grab level start-up lag without the range which we have now.

Not if one of your alternates is Captain Falcon who's Dash Grab is just ridiculous. It makes Greninja look like a snail not a frog.

Greninja`s dash grab has the same start-up but more range than Captain Falcon`s so I`d say Greninja`s dash grab is the superior one.

 

[AlexAnthonyD]

Those are the hitboxes for fsmash which, if you see, have the same values for knockback growth (KBG)/base knockback (BKB). This makes it uniform throughout the move rather than the tip having more launch power.

Thank you sir, I appreciate the explaination. It must have been anecdotal memories of playing to have made me think otherwise.

@ Lavani
Yeah, I agree that having a slow standing grab fits Greninja`s style, but a frame 9 standing grab isn`t exactly fast either. Most characters` grabs are frame 6, and having a frame 9 standing grab would still put Greninja among the bottom 10 characters in terms of grab speed (including characters with tether grabs). So Greninja would still have a slow standing grab, it just wouldn`t be the horrible tether grab level start-up lag without the range which we have now.


Greninja`s dash grab has the same start-up but more range than Captain Falcon`s so I`d say Greninja`s dash grab is the superior one.

You really think so? Once again as i've already shown I am quite anecdotal in how I view things. But whenever I play against a CF they seem to be able to grab me at will and I can never return the favor, I feel like his (once again I am just assuming) superior foot speed really gives him the edge especially in short range dashes. Whenever I pick up CF as he is one of my favorite alternates I always seem to grab TOO SLOWLY and end up whiffing entirely, I find I must hit the grab button faster at shorter distances than with Greninja to actually nail the grab.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I am sure this is known but I see no mention of this in the Original Post But Greninja can slow his fall speed if you input a fast fall while charging Shadow Sneak during his first or second jump. Since you can do it and keep your double jump (if using it from your initial jump), you can use it to stall and wait for that moment to surprise an off stage opponent. I've found it useful for that purpose. The decrease in fall speed is very significant.

 

[Spirst]

Yeah, it gives a fall speed akin to Rosalina's. You used to be able to FF the shadow sneak and when done, Greninja would reappear on the stage below rather than in the air but that was patched out.

 

[Opana]

I am sure this is known but I see no mention of this in the Original Post But Greninja can slow his fall speed if you input a fast fall while charging Shadow Sneak during his first or second jump. Since you can do it and keep your double jump (if using it from your initial jump), you can use it to stall and wait for that moment to surprise an off stage opponent. I've found it useful for that purpose. The decrease in fall speed is very significant.

I literally saw this yesterday and came to post this lol.

 

[Lavani]

Yeah, it gives a fall speed akin to Rosalina's. You used to be able to FF the shadow sneak and when done, Greninja would reappear on the stage below rather than in the air but that was patched out.

I miss this so much. FF shadow sneak as an air-to-ground punish vs things like PK Thunder was so good.

 

[Marilink]

Lavani, think you can give some details in the OP about the Foxtrot setup for Sprinting SS?

 

[Lavani]

Certainly.

So Running Shadow Sneak seems to happen in the transition from dash to run, which is normally likely a 1 frame window. However, if you foxtrot into it, you can start the next dash at any time during the skid and press B at the same time for a much more lenient timing.

Regarding other SS techs mentioned in the OP, Delayed Sneak seems to just involve doing a full jump at a certain time with no other inputs required. The current theory is to be landing when the teleport would've happened. Oddly doesn't work with a shorthop.

Sneak during shield is weird, I'm not even sure why this works but I feel like it might have to do with the minimum required shield hold time. I can say for sure that you don't need to be moving to do it though, it works from a standstill.