Official Mysterious Arsenal - Greninja Information & AT Thread

[Lavani]

Yes. Perfect pivots forwards then does an ftilt in the direction he was dashing, so you don't see him turn around, but it is indeed a perfect pivot.

 

[Lemonade Candy]

So is it easier to bind c stick to attack? Im just trying to fill gaps in before I commit to hours of training. I havent done this since I wanted to learn how to float on a dime as peach.

 

[Lavani]

I don't have Wii U so I have to pretend I know what I'm talking about here, but if you set C-stick to tilts it should work something like this (same direction as that vine):

1.
2. Flick
3.

 

[Lemonade Candy]

Thanks Lavani

 

[Marilink]

^^I'll confirm that, you've got it right.

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

How does his Water Shuriken work in the air?

Sometimes I bounce when using it, and sometimes I don't. It's bull**** difficult to use ot acurately when I randomly bounces around. :v

 

[Space thing]

How does his Water Shuriken work in the air?

Sometimes I bounce when using it, and sometimes I don't. It's bull**** difficult to use ot acurately when I randomly bounces around. :v

I actually translated something from a Japanese gif on the previous page that answers this.

"Minor thing about Shuriken (I think), if you land after doing a floating neutral B, you won't float with Neutral B until you've landed again. But if you use something like nair or fair as you land, you will float the next time you use neutral B. Incidentally, you can grab items doing this."

Replace "float" with "bounce in the air" and you should have your answer.

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

I actually translated something from a Japanese gif on the previous page that answers this.

Replace "float" with "bounce in the air" and you should have your answer.

Hm. That sounds like it would explain things, aye.

But I must say. That's a really really odd design decision. Unless that's a bug.

 

[KERO]

Hm. That sounds like it would explain things, aye.

But I must say. That's a really really odd design decision. Unless that's a bug.

Actually, that is slightly inaccurate. Logically, you should get a bouncy shuriken the first time you use it in the air each time you jump. This includes from ledges, etc., However, for some reason, there is some strange coding error with Greninja's Water Shuriken (I can't imagine this being intentional). Basically, if you land during the Water Shuriken's animation or you do a grounded Water Shuriken, the next time you jump and do a Water Shuriken, you will not bounce. However, if you land normally (full jump, short hop, or any landing lag from airdodge/moves/non-WS special moves), you regain the bouncing shuriken when you jump unless you Water Shuriken on the ground again. Again, this only occurs if you land while in Water Shuriken's animation or you use it on the ground. If you Water Shuriken near the ledge and grab the ledge afterward, you still get the bounce when you jump.

Now, as mentioned, if you Nair/Bair/other aerial during Water Shuriken's IASA frames, you'll land with those moves (much like cancelling airdodge lag) instead of Water Shuriken, thus negating this bizarre quality.

I'm 80% sure this is a bug of some sort.

 

[Lemonade Candy]

How is he doing this?!

 

[FullMoon]

Whoa. I need to know how to do that right now this very instant!

 

[Shack]

How is he doing this?!

Isn't that the running Shadow Sneak? Dash and input Forward B as the sound from his dash happens(you'll have to play with the timing to get the feel for it). You'll slow down, but continue running while charging Shadow Sneak.

 

[Lavani]

Pretty sure he's referring to the part where he "stops" without stopping his run.

I get the feeling it's C-stick related somehow.

 

[Lemonade Candy]

Lavani I wish you had a wii u girl.

 

[MartinAW4]

Pretty sure he's referring to the part where he "stops" without stopping his run.

I get the feeling it's C-stick related somehow.

Yeah, it might be the C-stick. We can hear that he presses something just before he slows down and I`ve tested that it isn`t any direction on the circle pad or any other button on the 3DS. So that just leaves the C-stick or a combination of inputs.

Though I can`t really see how slowing down running SS would be useful. Isn`t the main point of using running SS to go faster? If we want more control and spacing with SS, we can just use the walking one instead of learning an AT within an AT that is already hard to perform as it is.

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

Slowing down a run seems like a dead give-away to me. Like, telling them to punish your jack'0. :V

 

[Lemonade Candy]

or maybe a way to punish whiffed moves?

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

I suppose. A lot can be used for mindgames. And a punish form Shadow Sneak mean potential death to the receiver.


But I must say. This guy got some good Vines.



Finally a good way to kill off Diddy. Though, in what world would I ever be able to land a NAir in such a close position without being shield punished?

 

[Shack]

I suppose. A lot can be used for mindgames. And a punish form Shadow Sneak mean potential death to the receiver.

It's more of a gimmick since anyone who has seen this knows to just block and wait for you to SS so they can punish because the run will always slow down and the shadow is still visible. Not really reliable against a skilled opponent.

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

I think it should work against charcaters like Bowser who likes to do FSmash.

Of course frontal assault won't work. You might want to dash dance a bit.

 

[maidson]

(first post! sorry i can't post links yet)

More from this guy with the amazing vine:
vine.co/v/ODWXZZzvzJB

I tried to do this for about an hour and couldn't. How is he getting positioned perfectly in the moments between the d-tilt and the footstool? I couldn't seem to initiate a dash that quickly out of d-tilt.

He has other vines with SHFF nair >> footstool >> dair and is also able to make the positioning work in between nair and footstool. Am I missing something or not trying hard enough?

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

Greninja uses a lot of footstooling itseems, to be considered somewhat effective. That's rough.


I'm more wondering, how are you ever goign to hit anyone with NAir so effectively that you can connect stuff like this? Most of the VInes starts with a NAir. :V

 

[Lemonade Candy]

Yeah his vines are awesome. Unfortunately DI isn't taken into consideration here. It makes the chase for u air a bit harder. I've managed to do some of his stuff unintentionally. It does work.

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

Whenever I manage to land in a DTilt, and follows up with a UThrow, my opponents are always jumping away form my FF UAir.

Pretty sure I did frame perfect jumping too. On Bowser and Sheik, two kind of easy targets. Wut I do wrung? :v

 

[MartinAW4]

Whenever I manage to land in a DTilt, and follows up with a UThrow, my opponents are always jumping away form my FF UAir.

Pretty sure I did frame perfect jumping too. On Bowser and Sheik, two kind of easy targets. Wut I do wrung? :v

There seems to be less hitstun in real matches compared to training mode, so Uthrow -> Uair is much harder to truly combo against some characters. But you can still land the Uair after Uthrow even if it doesn`t truly combo depending on how the opponent reacts to your Uthrow.

At low %, when you can reach them with a short hop Uair:
- if they usually jump, use full hop Uair to reach them anyway
- if they tend to air dodge, stay on the ground, charge a Dsmash and release it once they land with a lot of lag from air dodgeing into the ground
- if they DI away from you, use Bair instead of Uair

At high %, when you need to double jump to reach them:
- do a full jump and wait for their reaction, then either use your second jump to punish with an aerial or land and use Usmash

You just need to learn the habits of your opponent and then you`ll be able to land Uthrow -> Uair even at percents when it doesn`t truly combo.

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

So no true combos for Greninja yet, except for early %? :<

 

[Shack]

So no true combos for Greninja yet, except for early %? :<

https://vine.co/u/1135825187007569920

A lot of true combos in these vids.

 

[FullMoon]

Seeing those vines makes me wonder if I'll ever really master Greninja.

 

[HakuryuVision]

^
inspiring! : O
Really thought Greninja has been reduced to a character without any good combos (aside from early%), but these look great!

 

[MartinAW4]

So no true combos for Greninja yet, except for early %? :<

According to training mode, Greninja has a lot of combos even at high percents. You can see many great combos in the vine that Shack linked or you can find the list of all combos we`ve found so far against Sheik in the combo thread here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/greninjas-true-combos.375003/

But like I said, it seems that in real matches, hitstun lasts a bit shorter. So some of the combos that are barely possible in training mode like Uthrow -> Uair at higher percents do not seem to truly combo at all in a real match. Though this isn`t 100% confirmed yet, so it is also possible that my reaction time is just slower during a match or the lag on FG is messing up my timing slightly which makes it seem like the hitsun is lower when in reality it isn`t.

Here are some examples of true combos that also work in real matches (the % are against Sheik in training mode):
sourspot Nair -> Usmash at 60-100%
sourspot Nair -> Fair at 70-145%
Dash Attack -> Fair at 4-140%
Utilt -> Uair at 30-160%
Dtilt -> Uair at 120-320%
Dtilt -> Fair at 132-300%
Dair -> Dair -> Dair -> Dair/Nair at 120-166% if the opponent doesn`t tech
Uair spike -> Jab/Dtilt/Utilt/Usmash all work at any % from 0% to 999%
fully charged Water Shuriken -> grab also works at any %

Edit:
@ HakuryuVision
The only combos Greninja lost after the patch were Uair follow-ups from Usmash and some Water Shuriken combos (most of which still work at low percents). But the lowered knockback on Fair and Uair also made Uair and Fair combos work longer and more reliably, so Greninja`s combo game is still almost as good as before.

 

[Mocha]

According to training mode, Greninja has a lot of combos even at high percents. You can see many great combos in the vine that Shack linked or you can find the list of all combos we`ve found so far against Sheik in the combo thread here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/greninjas-true-combos.375003/

But like I said, it seems that in real matches, hitstun lasts a bit shorter. So some of the combos that are barely possible in training mode like Uthrow -> Uair at higher percents do not seem to truly combo at all in a real match. Though this isn`t 100% confirmed yet, so it is also possible that my reaction time is just slower during a match or the lag on FG is messing up my timing slightly which makes it seem like the hitsun is lower when in reality it isn`t.

Here are some examples of true combos that also work in real matches (the % are against Sheik in training mode):
sourspot Nair -> Usmash at 60-100%
sourspot Nair -> Fair at 70-145%
Dash Attack -> Fair at 4-140%
Utilt -> Uair at 30-160%
Dtilt -> Uair at 120-320%
Dtilt -> Fair at 132-300%
Dair -> Dair -> Dair -> Dair/Nair at 120-166% if the opponent doesn`t tech
Uair spike -> Jab/Dtilt/Utilt/Usmash all work at any % from 0% to 999%
fully charged Water Shuriken -> grab also works at any %

Edit:
@ HakuryuVision
The only combos Greninja lost after the patch were Uair follow-ups from Usmash and some Water Shuriken combos (most of which still work at low percents). But the lowered knockback on Fair and Uair also made Uair and Fair combos work longer and more reliably, so Greninja`s combo game is still almost as good as before.

Gonna try some more of this stuff out when I get home later today, thanks for the info. I know some of this has been mentioned in earlier posts/other threads, but it's still nice to bring them up again, so that both old/new Greninja mains don't have to dig up all this information.

I think one suggestion I would make to the original post is to have some gifs of Greninja's combos. We can use some of Vine's gifs too, can't we?

Seeing those vines makes me wonder if I'll ever really master Greninja.

I feel like this a lot in general, but tbh seeing attempted combos like this gives me all the more reason to try. Again and again.

 

[MartinAW4]

Gonna try some more of this stuff out when I get home later today, thanks for the info. I know some of this has been mentioned in earlier posts/other threads, but it's still nice to bring them up again, so that both old/new Greninja mains don't have to dig up all this information.

I think one suggestion I would make to the original post is to have some gifts of Greninja's combos. We can use some of Vine's gifs too, can't we?


I feel like this a lot in general, but tbh seeing attempted combos like this gives me all the more reason to try. Again and again.

Yeah, having gifs of all the combos or at least the more complicated ones would be awesome. The only problem is that I don`t have a way to record 3DS footage. But if someone who can make gifs was willing to help, that would be great.

 

[Marilink]

I can never seem to get Dtilt > Footstool to work--or any footsool combos, really. I'm just bad at footstooling, I think.

 

[MartinAW4]

I can never seem to get Dtilt > Footstool to work--or any footsool combos, really. I'm just bad at footstooling, I think.

Most of the combos he`s doing in the vines are extremely hard to perform and definitely took dozens of tries to make them work correctly. And that`s against an immobile CPU that doesn`t DI. It`s almost impossible to pull such combos off in a match where the opponent knows how to DI.
They`re more like works of art that look really cool and show off what Greninja is capable of, rather than something you`d want to learn to use in your gameplay.

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

My opponents just jumps away after a DTilt. Can't manage to follow up with FF UAir.

 

[MartinAW4]

My opponents just jumps away after a DTilt. Can't manage to follow up with FF UAir.

The hitstun on Dtilt is very low, so you have to perform Uair very fast for it to combo. And only use this combo at above 120%, below that Dtilt -> Usmash is better.

 

[Kikaioh]

I saw this video in one of the other threads https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-ts=1421914688&v=JhUnn_9KDuA&x-yt-cl=84503534, and I was wondering if anyone could explain how Greninja is able to do the weird short hop air reversal at 0:25, I'd never seen that before and it looks useful.

 

[MartinAW4]

I saw this video in one of the other threads https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-ts=1421914688&v=JhUnn_9KDuA&x-yt-cl=84503534, and I was wondering if anyone could explain how Greninja is able to do the weird short hop air reversal at 0:25, I'd never seen that before and it looks useful.

That`s a wavebounce. To do it you have to:
1) jump with your back facing the opponent
2) press B
3) immediately after step 2), press the circle pad towards your opponent

 

[Kikaioh]

@ MartinAW4 : Dude that's sick, thanks for the explanation, it's much appreciated.

 

[droughboi]

Edit: nvm, found it.