Official Mysterious Arsenal - Greninja Information & AT Thread

[Funkermonster]

No one asked you to read anything. I know for a fact some of the stuff I posted was new to at least some people. This is supposed to be a thread for sharing info, and I know we would all rather sift through a few redundancies than open the thread to find nothing.

Don't dissuade people from posting just because you're too dumb to skim through things you already know, especially if you're not contributing anything.

Sorry for the immature gif, but your comment just made me chuckle my ass off!

 

[Alphamew17]

I also have found out that greninja's up smash has ten frames more end lag, making it slower and nerfing him even more. It's extremely frustrating. WHY U DO DIS NINTENDOH???

Sorry for the immature gif, but your comment just made me chuckle my *** off!

Your gif doesn't work, please try again (if you really feel like reposting it)

 

[Spirst]

I also have found out that greninja's up smash has ten frames more end lag, making it slower and nerfing him even more. It's extremely frustrating. WHY U DO DIS NINTENDOH???



Your gif doesn't work, please try again (if you really feel like reposting it)

This is known at this point. Before, he could input something like a jab or another upsmash before the animation entirely ended for the first one. Not the case anymore.

 

[Piggyman86]

Man im really bummed they hit greninja so hard with all these nerfs : /. I played Olimar since the beginning of brawl and greninja felt a lot like brawlimar to me. now he just feels like a pseudogood character

 

[KERO]

Well, we got frame data now (incomplete albeit):

Jab1
Hits on frame: 3.0
Hitboxes end: 7.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 2.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 30
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 60.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 70

Jab2
Hits on frame: 3.0
Hitboxes end: 5.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 1.6
Max Hitbox BKB: 50
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 48.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 70

Jab3
Hits on frame: 5.0
Hitboxes end: 10.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 3.5
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 210.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

unknown substate 0x55
Hits on frame: 4.0
Hitboxes end: 6.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 2.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 120
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 120.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 45

Dash Attack
Hits on frame: 9.0
Hitboxes end: 13.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 7.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 40
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 700.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 60

F-tilt (high)
Hits on frame: 10.0
Hitboxes end: 13.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 6.5
Max Hitbox BKB: 112
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 97.5
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

F-tilt (normal)
Hits on frame: 10.0
Hitboxes end: 13.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 6.5
Max Hitbox BKB: 112
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 97.5
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

F-tilt (low)
Hits on frame: 10.0
Hitboxes end: 13.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 6.5
Max Hitbox BKB: 112
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 97.5
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

U-tilt
Hits on frame: 9.0
Hitboxes end: 13.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 4.5
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 270.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 92

D-tilt
Hits on frame: 5.0
Hitboxes end: 7.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 7.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 40
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 420.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 70

F-smash release (normal)
Hits on frame: 13.0
Hitboxes end: 16.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 14.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 99
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 420.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

U-smash release
Hits on frame: 12.0
Hitboxes end: 22.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 14.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 103
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 420.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 90

D-smash release
Hits on frame: 16.0
Hitboxes end: 19.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 13.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 90
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 416.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 30

Nair
Hits on frame: 12.0
Hitboxes end: 17.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 11.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 95
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 330.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 60

Fair
Hits on frame: 16.0
Hitboxes end: 18.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 14.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 84
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 420.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 45

Bair
Hits on frame: 5.0
Hitboxes end: 17.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 4.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 120
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 240.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

Uair
Hits on frame: 7.0
Hitboxes end: 14.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 3.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 168
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 120.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 75

Dair
Hits on frame: 17.0
Hitboxes end: 46.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 8.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 95
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 160.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 270

Pummel
Hits on frame: 6.0
Hitboxes end: 7.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 2.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

F-throw
Hits on frame: 0.0
Hitboxes end: 0.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 5.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 45
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 50

B-throw
Hits on frame: 0.0
Hitboxes end: 0.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 8.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 60
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 140

U-throw
Hits on frame: 0.0
Hitboxes end: 0.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 5.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 120
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 93

D-throw
Hits on frame: 0.0
Hitboxes end: 0.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 6.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 50
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 65

Hits on frame: 17.0
Hitboxes end: 23.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 7.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 48
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 560.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 48

Hits on frame: 17.0
Hitboxes end: 23.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 7.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 48
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 560.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 48

Hits on frame: 22.0
Hitboxes end: 25.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 7.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 20
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 630.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 45

Hits on frame: 17.0
Hitboxes end: 23.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 5.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 50
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 300.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

Hits on frame: 30.0
Hitboxes end: 74.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 0.5
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 35.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 90

unknown substate 0x23a
Hits on frame: 6.0
Hitboxes end: 8.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 10.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 102
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 600.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 48

unknown substate 0x23b
Hits on frame: 6.0
Hitboxes end: 8.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 15.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 102
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 975.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 55

unknown substate 0x23c
Hits on frame: 6.0
Hitboxes end: 9.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 6.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 90
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 390.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 80

unknown substate 0x23e
Hits on frame: 6.0
Hitboxes end: 8.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 12.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 101
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 720.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 48

unknown substate 0x23f
Hits on frame: 6.0
Hitboxes end: 8.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 17.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 101
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 1105.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 55

unknown substate 0x240
Hits on frame: 6.0
Hitboxes end: 9.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 7.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 90
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 455.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 60

unknown substate 0x24a
Hits on frame: 6.0
Hitboxes end: 8.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 10.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 102
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 600.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 48

unknown substate 0x24b
Hits on frame: 6.0
Hitboxes end: 8.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 15.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 102
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 975.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 55

unknown substate 0x24c
Hits on frame: 6.0
Hitboxes end: 9.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 6.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 90
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 390.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 80

unknown substate 0x24e
Hits on frame: 6.0
Hitboxes end: 8.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 12.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 101
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 720.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 48

unknown substate 0x24f
Hits on frame: 6.0
Hitboxes end: 8.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 17.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 101
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 1105.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 55

unknown substate 0x250
Hits on frame: 6.0
Hitboxes end: 9.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 7.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 90
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 455.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 60

Not exactly sure what the unknown substates are, but I feel like the 30-74 frame attack is Explosion Attack at least. Will update as more information comes in.

 

[Alphamew17]

Can you provide a direct comparison to the frames from before the patch?

 

[KERO]

We don't have any solid numbers regarding frame changes from 1.0.3 to 1.0.4, but we have numbers regarding hitbox size/knockback strength/damage differences between the two versions.

(HIT 2) USMASH DAMAGE : 13% ⇒ 11%
DSMASH DAMAGE : 11% ⇒ 13%
LATE DSMASH DAMAGE : 9% ⇒ 11%
(HIT 1) USMASH HITBOX SIZE : 6 ⇒ 5
SWEETSPOT USMASH HITBOX SIZE : 7 ⇒ 6
DSMASH BASE KNOCKBACK : 93 ⇒ 90
FAIR BASE KNOCKBACK : 92 ⇒ 86
(HIT 6) UAIR BASE KNOCKBACK : 190 ⇒ 168
USMASH : Ending lag increased,
FAIR : Knockback reduced
UAIR : Final hitbox increased slightly, first hitboxes use weight based knockback
NEUTRAL B : Ending lag increased
UP B : Windboxes have reduced knockback
SIDE B : Aerial Shadow Sneak has less ending lag
BUGFIX : Greninja can no longer cancel aerial landing lag with Shadow Sneak

and
A few mystery misc lines deleted, though not many
U-smash hitbox size 6.5 -> 5.0
U-smash unknown operation following first hitbox changed: formerly changed -5.0 after 5 frames, now changes -4.0 after 3 frames.
U-smash 14% hitbox size reduced 7.0 -> 6.0
U-smash secondary hitboxes damage reduced 13% -> 11%
U-smash final hitbox damage reduced 11% -> 10%
D-smash damage increased 11%/9% -> 13%/11%
Fair base knockback reduced 0x5C -> 0x54
Uair structural changes including a new hitbox with a 0x55 angle following the normal 0x16E one
Uair final hit base knockback 0xBE -> 0xA8
Subactions 23A, 23E, 24A, 24E unknown parameter changed 1.0 -> 0.9
Subactions 23A, 23B, 23E, 23F, 24A, 24B, 24E, 24F hitbox (10%, angle 0x30) base knockback increased 0x64 -> 0x66
Unknown lines added to subaction 246, 252, 256

And for the people that didn't get that, here's a translation from ItsRainingGravy
U-smash hitbox size 6.5 -> 5.0
U-smash 14% hitbox size reduced 7.0 -> 6.0
U-smash secondary hitboxes damage reduced 13% -> 11%
U-smash final hitbox damage reduced 11% -> 10%
D-smash damage increased 11%/9% -> 13%/11%
Fair base knockback reduced 92 -> 84
Uair structural changes including a new hitbox with a 85 angle following the normal 366 one
Uair final hit base knockback 190 -> 168
Subactions 23A, 23B, 23E, 23F, 24A, 24B, 24E, 24F hitbox (10%, angle 48) base knockback increased 100 -> 102

 

[Alphamew17]

So what you're saying is greninja got wrecked. Time to petition Nintendo!

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Greninja didn't get wrecked. He's still viable. Just different. We just gotta adjust our playstyle.

 

[KERO]

I think that it's VERY important to note that the lack of vertical VI has greatly helped both our combo game and our ability to kill. Utilt to Uair is a guaranteed combo that kills at around 120ish percent or higher now (from what I can tell). Uthrow to Uair works longer, etc., So, while Greninja has been given a substantial amount of nerfs, the lack of VI is inadvertently a huge buff for him. I feel like we're going to have to learn to play Greninja quite a bit differently now, but he really isn't as bad off as we initially may have thought.

Edit: Note that Utilt both comes out faster than Usmash and much like Usmash, it has a disjointed hitbox, and much like 1.0.3 Usmash, it frame traps opponents airdodging into it due to having very little ending lag (those IASA frames), giving us at least a free jab.

 

[ArhyLis]

Anyone else keep mistakenly using Shadow SNeak instead of Hydro Pump when recovering? :V

The struggle with all Greninja players, lol.

 

[KERO]

But, the GC controller will hopefully remedy that =D

 

[Alphamew17]

Is it just me or does hydro pump move faster than pre-update? not to mention a bit harder to control than before, I can't get those precise hydro-push kills

 

[momochuu]

its not harder to control at all (thank god for real controllers). it does seem to move a bit faster, but honestly everything in the wii u version feels a little faster for some reason.

 

[TTYK]

Well, we got frame data now (incomplete albeit):

Jab1
Hits on frame: 3.0
Hitboxes end: 7.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 2.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 30
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 60.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 70

Jab2
Hits on frame: 3.0
Hitboxes end: 5.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 1.6
Max Hitbox BKB: 50
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 48.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 70

Jab3
Hits on frame: 5.0
Hitboxes end: 10.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 3.5
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 210.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

unknown substate 0x55
Hits on frame: 4.0
Hitboxes end: 6.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 2.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 120
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 120.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 45

Dash Attack
Hits on frame: 9.0
Hitboxes end: 13.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 7.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 40
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 700.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 60

F-tilt (high)
Hits on frame: 10.0
Hitboxes end: 13.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 6.5
Max Hitbox BKB: 112
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 97.5
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

F-tilt (normal)
Hits on frame: 10.0
Hitboxes end: 13.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 6.5
Max Hitbox BKB: 112
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 97.5
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

F-tilt (low)
Hits on frame: 10.0
Hitboxes end: 13.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 6.5
Max Hitbox BKB: 112
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 97.5
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

U-tilt
Hits on frame: 9.0
Hitboxes end: 13.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 4.5
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 270.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 92

D-tilt
Hits on frame: 5.0
Hitboxes end: 7.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 7.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 40
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 420.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 70

F-smash release (normal)
Hits on frame: 13.0
Hitboxes end: 16.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 14.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 99
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 420.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

U-smash release
Hits on frame: 12.0
Hitboxes end: 22.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 14.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 103
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 420.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 90

D-smash release
Hits on frame: 16.0
Hitboxes end: 19.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 13.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 90
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 416.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 30

Nair
Hits on frame: 12.0
Hitboxes end: 17.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 11.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 95
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 330.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 60

Fair
Hits on frame: 16.0
Hitboxes end: 18.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 14.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 84
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 420.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 45

Bair
Hits on frame: 5.0
Hitboxes end: 17.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 4.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 120
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 240.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

Uair
Hits on frame: 7.0
Hitboxes end: 14.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 3.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 168
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 120.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 75

Dair
Hits on frame: 17.0
Hitboxes end: 46.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 8.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 95
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 160.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 270

Pummel
Hits on frame: 6.0
Hitboxes end: 7.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 2.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

F-throw
Hits on frame: 0.0
Hitboxes end: 0.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 5.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 45
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 50

B-throw
Hits on frame: 0.0
Hitboxes end: 0.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 8.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 60
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 140

U-throw
Hits on frame: 0.0
Hitboxes end: 0.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 5.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 120
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 93

D-throw
Hits on frame: 0.0
Hitboxes end: 0.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 6.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 50
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 65

Hits on frame: 17.0
Hitboxes end: 23.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 7.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 48
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 560.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 48

Hits on frame: 17.0
Hitboxes end: 23.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 7.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 48
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 560.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 48

Hits on frame: 22.0
Hitboxes end: 25.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 7.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 20
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 630.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 45

Hits on frame: 17.0
Hitboxes end: 23.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 5.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 50
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 300.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

Hits on frame: 30.0
Hitboxes end: 74.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 0.5
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 35.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 90

unknown substate 0x23a
Hits on frame: 6.0
Hitboxes end: 8.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 10.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 102
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 600.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 48

unknown substate 0x23b
Hits on frame: 6.0
Hitboxes end: 8.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 15.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 102
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 975.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 55

unknown substate 0x23c
Hits on frame: 6.0
Hitboxes end: 9.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 6.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 90
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 390.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 80

unknown substate 0x23e
Hits on frame: 6.0
Hitboxes end: 8.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 12.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 101
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 720.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 48

unknown substate 0x23f
Hits on frame: 6.0
Hitboxes end: 8.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 17.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 101
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 1105.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 55

unknown substate 0x240
Hits on frame: 6.0
Hitboxes end: 9.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 7.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 90
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 455.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 60

unknown substate 0x24a
Hits on frame: 6.0
Hitboxes end: 8.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 10.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 102
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 600.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 48

unknown substate 0x24b
Hits on frame: 6.0
Hitboxes end: 8.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 15.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 102
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 975.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 55

unknown substate 0x24c
Hits on frame: 6.0
Hitboxes end: 9.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 6.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 90
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 390.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 80

unknown substate 0x24e
Hits on frame: 6.0
Hitboxes end: 8.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 12.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 101
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 720.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 48

unknown substate 0x24f
Hits on frame: 6.0
Hitboxes end: 8.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 17.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 101
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 1105.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 55

unknown substate 0x250
Hits on frame: 6.0
Hitboxes end: 9.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 7.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 90
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 455.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 60

Not exactly sure what the unknown substates are, but I feel like the 30-74 frame attack is Explosion Attack at least. Will update as more information comes in.

I've only been in the competitive community for so long, what does this mean?

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

I've only been in the competitive community for so long, what does this mean?

If I recall, it's information about how many frames each action takes, and on what frame an attack hits, or how long it lasts.

Considering the game runs on 60 frames per second, that's good info?

 

[Antonykun]

If I recall, it's information about how many frames each action takes, and on what frame an attack hits, or how long it lasts.

Considering the game runs on 60 frames per second, that's good info?

don't forget that a frame is about a 6oth of a second.

 

[DrSoussou]

I think that it's VERY important to note that the lack of vertical VI has greatly helped both our combo game and our ability to kill. Utilt to Uair is a guaranteed combo that kills at around 120ish percent or higher now (from what I can tell). Uthrow to Uair works longer, etc.

I feel like we're going to have to learn to play Greninja quite a bit differently now, but he really isn't as bad off as we initially may have thought.

Utilt->Uair is definitely not guaranteed at any percent, really. Your opponent just has to mix up buffering jump and airdodge to avoid it. It also kills much later than 120% now that multi-hit moves have been nerfed.

However, you're right about us exaggerating his nerfs. Greninja is still a very good character and he deserves our attention and exploration. For example, on the Wii U version, many of the blast zones on different stages have been made smaller, so we should learn which have the lowest ceilings and counter pick there to help Greninja's vertical game and net earlier KOs.

The biggest loss was falling shadow sneak, imo. It's very difficult to find uses for that move onstage now. Less cooldown makes recovery with it slightly easier though, especially if you do it by accident.

 

[bajisci]

counterpick to halberd

 

[momochuu]

Utilt->Uair is definitely not guaranteed at any percent, really. Your opponent just has to mix up buffering jump and airdodge to avoid it. It also kills much later than 120% now that multi-hit moves have been nerfed.

Actually, at mid percents its a true combo. I don't think at kill percents in 1.0.3 up throw to up air was a true combo anyway.

 

[Marilink]

I love Utilt's utility, but I'm having a hard time mixing it into my game plan. How do you guys usually land this move?

(Also, yes, counterpick to Halberd. The ceiling is super low.)

 

[bajisci]

ambiguous crossup nair if theyre shielding > utilt to punish their shield grab attempt works. nair > utilt sorta works low %

 

[MartinAW4]

Like bajisci said, Nair -> Utilt works well and is a true combo at low %. At around 6-20% you can even follow up with a sweetspot Usmash. Just be careful if they shield both the Nair and Utilt, they`ll be able to shield grab you without a chance to do anything about it.

Another situation where Utilt has a unique use is if you shield a laggy attack from behind like a smash attack, then immediately shield drop and Utilt because Utilt hits behind you as well. It`s good against smashes that cause forward movement like Sheik`s or Fox`s Fsmash because it puts them right into range of your Utilt.

 

[Piggyman86]

is jab/grab our only safe option oos? seems like all other moves are slow enough that they can shield. also how are you guys getting your nairs off onstage? seems likei always get shielded then grabbed.

 

[MartinAW4]

is jab/grab our only safe option oos? seems like all other moves are slow enough that they can shield. also how are you guys getting your nairs off onstage? seems likei always get shielded then grabbed.

You have to short hop and fast fall the Nairs for them to be safe. Because of Greninja`s extremely high short hop, if you don`t fast fall you will miss the opponent. It takes some practice to learn the timing, but it`s definitely worth it since Nair is one of Greninja`s best approach tools and combo starters.
It is also completely safe on shield if you follow it up with a Jab because the landing lag on Nair is so low that Jab comes out almost immediately after, preventing you from getting shield grabbed.

The oos option to choose depends on the lag of the attack you shielded. Grab, Jab and Dtilt are the fastest options for punishing hits with low lag, but Usmash is good too because its startup is as fast as before, only the end lag got increased. Utilt is also great if you get hit from behind and you can easily follow it up with an Uair.

 

[TTYK]

If I recall, it's information about how many frames each action takes, and on what frame an attack hits, or how long it lasts.

Considering the game runs on 60 frames per second, that's good info?

I know that, but does this data show he has good frames or bad frames? lol.

 

[Bedtimebuddy07]

I will be posting all my Greninja findings on my youtube page in HQ. Gimmicks, matchups.. the whole 9 (Bedtimebuddy07) (Cant post links)

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

I will be posting all my Greninja findings on my youtube page in HQ. Gimmicks, matchups.. the whole 9 (Bedtimebuddy07) (Cant post links)

Cool beans. Got any 1v1s on your channel?

 

[bigdog54]

I don't know if this has been found or not, but while messing around with Greninja, I found by rapidly using his up-b and then going down on the joystick, Greninja shoots out a single ball of water rather then his normal recovery. This ball does push other players like the normal recovery and can be sent in multiple directions.

I have a video but I'm not allowed to link anything on Smashboards yet so.... If you'd like to see it just search "GUYSofLNS Greninja Tech" on youtube and it's the latest video (I know its a stupid name).

 

[Spirst]

I don't know if this has been found or not, but while messing around with Greninja, I found by rapidly using his up-b and then going down on the joystick, Greninja shoots out a single ball of water rather then his normal recovery. This ball does push other players like the normal recovery and can be sent in multiple directions.

I have a video but I'm not allowed to link anything on Smashboards yet so.... If you'd like to see it just search "GUYSofLNS Greninja Tech" on youtube and it's the latest video (I know its a stupid name).

Link for the lazy.

As for the content itself, yes, this has been known. It's a matter of directing the hydro pump into the ground and can be useful for pushing people away who are falling to the ledge.

 

[bigdog54]

Link for the lazy.

As for the content itself, yes, this has been known. It's a matter of directing the hydro pump into the ground and can be useful for pushing people away who are falling to the ledge.

Thanks for posting the link (I needed 10 or more posts before I could do it). And cool, I just hadn't seen anyone talk about it and was curious, thanks for the clarification.

 

[NinjaLink]

I don't know if this has been found or not, but while messing around with Greninja, I found by rapidly using his up-b and then going down on the joystick, Greninja shoots out a single ball of water rather then his normal recovery. This ball does push other players like the normal recovery and can be sent in multiple directions.

I have a video but I'm not allowed to link anything on Smashboards yet so.... If you'd like to see it just search "GUYSofLNS Greninja Tech" on youtube and it's the latest video (I know its a stupid name).

I've been using it since release. Just one example here.

 

[Marilink]

I like to call it Dashwaving. It's situational, but I find myself being able to use it a lot.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

I've been using it since release. Just one example here.

Oh,yeah,I've done something similar twice to Yoshi Down-B,so satisfying,but it must be annoying for the Yoshi player.

How important would you say combos are for the `ninja?I don't use em really,other than Up-Throw to UAir.

 

[NinjaLink]

Very. You need to maximize damage as Greninja is an in-and-out character due to his moveset. Move in when they're scared and back off afterwards.

 

[Zalak]

Definitely combo where you can, but don't worry TOO much if you're not getting the most out of all your combos yet. Some of my most rad KOs have been when I ended a combo prematurely to mess with my opponent expectations, then hit them with a sneaky shadow sneak or a hydropump gimp, Nair, etc, depending on the situation. Greninja has a lot of ways he can almost force his opponent to try to guess what he'll do, especially off the edge. KEEP IN MIND THOUGH, I haven't been playing with hardcore players since like a week ago. Recently I've just been playing with my casualish brothers, so my advice might not be the best.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Hey guys I don't normally come here so sorry if this glitch has already been found out but I was messing around with Greninja in training mode and I found this minor but strange glitch with his shadow sneak.

Normally when you hold Shadow Sneak the shadow moves forward and after a bit you're forced to let go of the shadow sneak and teleport to the shadow. However for some reason when I'd start shadow sneak and instantly double jump and then immediately fast fall, I could hold the Shadow Sneak Indefinitely, it's pretty strange. I was able to do it pretty consistently too. Has anyone seen anything like this before? I should note that you still can't run, attack, ect, this just lets you hold it forever.

 

[NinjaLink]

Hey guys I don't normally come here so sorry if this glitch has already been found out but I was messing around with Greninja in training mode and I found this minor but strange glitch with his shadow sneak.

Normally when you hold Shadow Sneak the shadow moves forward and after a bit you're forced to let go of the shadow sneak and teleport to the shadow. However for some reason when I'd start shadow sneak and instantly double jump and then immediately fast fall, I could hold the Shadow Sneak Indefinitely, it's pretty strange. I was able to do it pretty consistently too. Has anyone seen anything like this before? I should note that you still can't run, attack, ect, this just lets you hold it forever.

 

[Mocha]

That looks like fun actually lol. inb4theypatchit

Also, can you do anything before you pop out of the shadow, other than moving around and taunting?

 

[Spirst]

That looks like fun actually lol. inb4theypatchit

Also, can you do anything before you pop out of the shadow, other than moving around and taunting?

Jumping, walking, crouching, taunting, and cancelling the shadow sneak altogether by grabbing the ledge.

If only it combined with running SS to give full running mobility with a delayed shadow. Tried it, didn't work.