Official Mysterious Arsenal - Greninja Information & AT Thread

[Rakurai]

It should be noted that Greninja's Substitute Ambush custom will actually track the opponent's position to a certain degree, unlike the standard version.

If they're anywhere within a little over half the length of Final Destination when the counter triggers, it'll target where they were when their attack connected, meaning it can be used to threaten someone who's using projectiles. It's pretty much impossible to land the upward or downward version of the counter on someone, though, as if they walk even slightly to the side, it'll whiff.

 

[Erionn]

I think i'll be taking exploding down B and pulling neutral B..

maybe Strong down B...

I'm a big fan of Special 3 for Shuriken. The uncharged version is pretty short range but it basically combos into anything at any percent.

 

[Ookami Hajime]

It should be noted that Greninja's Substitute Ambush custom will actually track the opponent's position to a certain degree, unlike the standard version.

If they're anywhere within a little over half the length of Final Destination when the counter triggers, it'll target where they were when their attack connected, meaning it can be used to threaten someone who's using projectiles. It's pretty much impossible to land the upward or downward version of the counter on someone, though, as if they walk even slightly to the side, it'll whiff.

I land upward substitute very often. It's good in the air if they have low aerial mobility too

 

[Sosuke]

http://puu.sh/cshmr.mp4

weird shadow sneak glitch

 

[DrSoussou]

Great writeup, I don't incorporate shadow sneak in the air almost at all. I can definitely see how it can both protect you when recovering and provide solid mixups, I'll have to try it out. Do you have any clips of you pulling off upthrow/ to aerial shadow sneak kills? That sounds super stylish (and tough) but also practical because your opponent cannot see it charged. never thought to try it

Yes, I do have a few replays that I saved because I was able to net midair SS KOs, although I'm not sure if any of them result from an Up-throw. Generally, there are better options for Greninja to use after Up-throw so I don't go for that often, but I've had great success using SS as a KO option chasing people offstage.

@ Opana No, unfortunately SS can't be used to break combos. Even using an Instantly-released SS, Greninja still has some startup on the move that can be attacked, and the move will thereafter be interrupted. If the combo in question is something true, like a jab combo, then definitely not. If the combo is loose, and your opponent is relying on reads of your actions, then maybe.

@CyBer_Hurricane No, you didn't Hydro Push his invincibility. The Mario jumped from the ledge. When a player uses ledge-jump, they forfeit their invincibility frames. Hydro Pump's effects correlate with the amount of damage sustained by the player getting pushed, so if you have a ton of damage, even one hit from Hydro Pump can really launch you and sometimes net a KO.

@Szion Not sure what you were talking about but I love your avatar #Lucario

@ Spirst and @ Ookami Hajime those are great techs that are important to mix up so as not to become predictable.


So I wanna talk about Hydro Pump next but I'm not sure if I have the time now. I'll do a write-up about it later, because it's my favorite move ever and I wanna spend a fair amount of time on it.

Meanwhile, if you guys are keeping up on my channel you'll see I posted a new video yesterday of my Greninja getting bodied by a Marth I played against during a Nintendodojo Ranked Ladder match named Mr. E (clever name lol). I was able to win the set by abusing the reasons for which I believe the Greninja vs Marth matchup to be significantly in Greninja's favor (namely, Water Shuriken), but I think its important to realize how bad it can be to allow melee/swordsmen characters to get too close to Greninja. I get destroyed in less than a full minute. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_a8gHGJhPg

When facing an opponent who is forced to attack you (because if they dont, they take damage from projectiles and inevitably lose) it is important to remember that the space between the two of you is your biggest asset. Yes, you should definitely be strong enough as a player to go toe-to-toe with any character at CQC (close-quarters-combat), but there are plenty of matchups where doing that too much will prove to be your downfall. Against DK for example, you would be foolish to stay too close for long, because any amount of hits you gain will be offset by a single one of his moves. Greninja is also a lot lighter than DK, and will be KO'd far earlier. However, if you stay away and play more defensively by spacing him with Water Shurikens (always mix up the extent to which you charge and release, dont be predictable) and force him to approach, you'll find that matchup to be one of the easiest in the game. I have a video of me 2-stocking Will, the best DK, in a ranked match by doing just that. I'll upload it to my channel eventually.

That's all I have time for right now, but I'll be back to talk to you guys about Hydro Pump later ~

 

[bajisci]

@ Opana No, unfortunately SS can't be used to break combos. Even using an Instantly-released SS, Greninja still has some startup on the move that can be attacked, and the move will thereafter be interrupted. If the combo in question is something true, like a jab combo, then definitely not. If the combo is loose, and your opponent is relying on reads of your actions, then maybe.

This is partially incorrect as shadow sneak can interrupt and punish both ZSS and LINK fsmashes after the first hit. Also when you SS hitstun-cancel, greninja pops upward a bit meaning you could theoretically dodge some follow up with it.

 

[DrSoussou]

A true combo is one in which the moves/attacks performed will always connect, one after the other, as long as the inputs are performed correctly and in the correct timing. Generally, this is because the hitstun inflicted on Player 2 from Player 1's first attack lasts longer than both the cooldown from Player 1's first attack and the startup from Player 1's second attack. Neither of the attacks you mentioned is a true combo. In fact, you can stand in front of ZSS while she uses Fsmash and the second kick will often completely miss Greninja because its so high and Greninja is so short. It always wiffs if you crouch.

As I said, SS can avoid and punish some combos that are not "true" combos, but a "true" combo will hit Greninja before SS can begin.

If you have a video or some type of evidence that SS has glitchy qualities that allow it to interrupt true combos like Marth's UpB, PLEASE let me know. That would be amazing!!!

 

[bajisci]

A true combo is one in which the moves/attacks performed will always connect, one after the other, as long as the inputs are performed correctly and in the correct timing. Generally, this is because the hitstun inflicted on Player 2 from Player 1's first attack lasts longer than both the cooldown from Player 1's first attack and the startup from Player 1's second attack. Neither of the attacks you mentioned is a true combo. In fact, you can stand in front of ZSS while she uses Fsmash and the second kick will often completely miss Greninja because its so high and Greninja is so short. It always wiffs if you crouch.

As I said, SS can avoid and punish some combos that are not "true" combos, but a "true" combo will hit Greninja before SS can begin.

I don't think you understand what I mean, SS cancels any and all (low amount) of hitstun and therefore the "true combo" definition does not apply to him. There are other moves with this histun-cancel property, the best example of which being megamans rush-canceling, and TL/link/peach down-b-canceling. Megaman can up-b out of many multihit moves (including greninja's u-air if not spaced perfeclty or not a rising u-air) and other "true combos". Obviously, SS is not as fast as megaman's up b or TL/link/peach's item throw so it cant get you out of everything but, some things it can.

TL;DR this game is ****ing bad and some characters have ways out of "true combos"

 

[PsychicHero]

Don't know if this has been posted yet( too lazy to recheck 6 pages of analysis) but I think I found some combos.

This one was found on accident on a for glory match against a robin.

Fully charged WS>sliding Usmash. In practice the game counts this as a combo and it's really easy once you get the hang of it.

A variation on this is Full charged WS>SS. Your timing has to be perfect and you must land the SS a half a second before the enemy gets launched by the WS or you'll miss

EDIT: just found another version Fully charged WS>sliding Utilt>Usmash>Uair does around 45%. Done on a roll happy Little Mac on For Glory, again done on accident because I was trying to Usmash but did a tilt instead.

Yet another EDIT: When holding right or left while charging WS will remove the knock back from the last hit of WS allowing you to combo into it at high %.( Whoops my bad its when you are at point blank range. Your opponent is basically kissing you range. Can probably be used to punish those Pits/DPs who spam their side B) Tested out on practice dummy Ganondorf

This one is trickier and probably doesn't work on all characters.

Utilt> Utilt>Usmash>Uair this is really hard to pull off and just like with the Up throw>Usmash doesn't work with most opponents

 

[DrSoussou]

@ PsychicHero I think many of those combos you're discovering are really good, but they all rely on you reading your opponent. Most of those you mentioned are not true combos, they can be air-dodged or attacked (I always think of Yoshi's Nair, if it could come out at any point, your combo is not true). However, those are all really good things to be practicing. I think Greninja's Up-throw is his best throw by far because it can lead into so many of those follow-ups, all of which are able to beat one escape option or another with a rock-paper-scissors effect. For example, if you up-tilt or up-throw your opponent above you at mid-percent, and they airdodge immediately without jumping, you get a free charged up-smash while they fall back down to you. If they don't airdodge, you get a free short-hop up-air. If they airdodge late, you get a lot of stuff (double-jump nair or dair, full-hop ffalling upair spike, double-jump back-air if you read their DI left or right). Know that all of these are potential follow-ups and never stick to just one because it worked one time. Read your opponent and punish accordingly.

Its time for Hydro Pump

To quickly summarize, Hydro Pump (Greninja's UpB) is godlike. It is similar to Pikachu's UpB (quick-attack) in that it has two separate movements, each of which can be controlled by a different directional input in a cardinal or semi-cardinal direction (North, S, SW, NE etc). It differs from Pikachu's UpB in that Greninja's can travel twice in the SAME (semi)cardinal direction, e.g. HP twice in the up direction, and covers slightly less distance than Quick Attack. However, Hydro Pump ALSO has a secondary effect of using the water that Greninja shoots behind him to push opponents away. I believe the boards have uniformly accepted the term "Hydro Push" to describe this effect. It is also worth noting that each of Greninja's pumps has, at the end of the stream of water, a hitbox that deals a small amount of damage (2%?), which is what enables KOs off the top of the screen if you push your opponent high enough. For the rest of the post, I'll describe "Hydro Pump" simply as "HP", and "Hydro Push" as "HPS".

The uses of this move are countless. It recovers, it KOs, it spaces your opponent away, it deals damage, it helps in camping, it aids mobility, it gimps your opponent, it stalls their options, it has bubble for anti-air (i'll get to that), and its flashy as hell, i love it.

The problems are, it can be risky, you can SD using it, it has a tad too much startup lag for use in CQC, it can get predictable, it falls to better options that Greninja has in a lot of scenarios, 3DS makes it hard to control, and it can be airdodged.

Like I did with Shadow Sneak, I think I'll just talk about when I've found this move to be most effective in high-level play.

1. Gimps
More of you need to learn to gimp with this move. I can't even tell you how many KOs HPS has earned me, and in a game that no longer has edge-hogging and gimps are increasingly more rare, this move is a godsend. HPS outright destroys the UpB recovery of the following characters: Ness, Ike, Shulk, Kirby, Lilmac, PacMan. For any other character, UNLESS they use a recovery move and immediately snap to the ledge, they can be put into free-fall and HPS can knock them away from the stage to their demise. This works on everyone EXCEPT: Yoshi, BowserJR, G&W, DK, Lucario (sorta), Villager (sorta), Olimar (sorta), Megaman and Sonic. Most of these resist HPS because their UpB allows them to keep doing moves, which can interrupt you or enable them to recover in other ways anyway. The "sorta" characters are able to avoid HPS most of the time, and if they get hit, can most of the time still recover. If you connect perfectly, however, they will still die. The basic recipe for a HPS gimp KO is to wait at the edge for your recently-launched opponent to use a move to recover. Either hop offstage with them and use HP to get yourself back, shooting water at them in the process, or wait at the edge of the stage and do a single HPS away from the edge with perfect timing to catch their recovery as they use it. Enjoy the free stock and fill your shurikens with your opponent's tears.

2. KO
Launch your opponent above and away from the stage with an attack. Chase them into the upper corners close to the blast zone. Use your first burst of HP to get even higher and closer to them in the corner. This will usually elicit an airdodge from your opponent if they haven't done so already. Use your second burst to HPS them into the upper blast zone, where your hitbox will KO them. THE ONLY WAYS FOR YOUR OPPONENT TO SURVIVE THIS ARE WITH AIRDODGE OR MOMENTUM CANCEL OF SOME KIND...or if you just miss. If you connect with HPS and they're high enough, they will die. The reason this became a habit of mine is because it is almost 100% safe. Your second burst of HP will always be pointed up, meaning Greninja will be sent down. While your opponent is busy either dying or trying to dodge HPS, you will already be on your way back to the stage. Unless they are able to hit you between your two bursts of HP (unlikely, you shouldn't be THAT close), you'll be fine. It has never happened to me.

3. Recovery
Obviously, this is what the move was meant for, but it is far more complex at high level than just "UpB to the ledge". That may always be your safest option, and it is a very good one, but sometimes your opponent will try very hard to cover it so you will have to get more creative to recovery safely. The first alternative that comes to mind is to recover over the stage. Usually, this is a no-no, but with HPS, it becomes completely viable. If your opponent is standing at the edge and waiting to guard you, and their offstage game makes you question the option of recovering low, then RECOVER THROUGH THEM. This may only trick your opponent once, but that may be all you need to win the set. You HP into your opponent or above and past them, and your second HP should push them away as you land, making it NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO PUNISH. Use the angles available to your HP to mix up this option, and use the second HP to mix up where you land. Imo, SS is still a safer recovery option, but it requires more forward-thinking. If you didn't start charging SS while you were recovering, HP over the stage could be your safest last-second option (assuming the ledge is unsafe).

4. Bubble
I haven't found a consistently reliable scenario in which to use this, but I'll explain it first and maybe you guys can help me find one. If Greninja is on the ground, you can use HP, but not twice unless the first one is into the air. In other words, you can't HP on the ground forward and then again backwards without your feet leaving the stage. You can, however, HP away once and stay grounded. Another option is to use Bubble, which won't send you far away like a single HP would. To do this, input UpB and then any variation of the direction "down" immediately afterwards. Greninja will always turn to face towards the direction you sent the bubble if he wasn't already, and only travel a small distance across the floor. Taking 90 degrees to be straight up, there are 7 approximate directions to send a bubble: 25°, 45°, 65°, 90° (up), and then around the opposite way aka -65°, -45°, -25°. If you try to bubble at 0° in either direction (right/left aka East West) you will do the single HP away that I mentioned before. To clarify, all of this is only possible with a single UpB input from the ground aimed DOWN (plus an angle). Please help me find a use for this, its awesome. So far, its only a decent anti-air move to be used defensively. The range on Bubble is the only thing that even makes it worth it. Without that, there is probably a better option for Greninja to do every time.

There's honestly a ton of other uses for this move, but they're very situational. If anything, the reason I'm posting this is because I think there is more to be discovered and I want to encourage all of you to employ HP and HPS heavily and diversely into your arsenal if you haven't already. Only then can we find out everything it can do.

TL;DR: Use Hydro Pump a lot, its amazing.

 

[TKOWL]

Don't know if this has been brought up yet but is it possible to use a downward-angled Forward Smash on a ledged opponent and/or is it any good as ledge blocking? I swear I've had a few times where I've been able to hit opponents on the edge with it, but I've had a very hard time replicating it. Does it have to be on a very specific frame or was I just missing something?

 

[Accidental]

I don't think this has been brought up yet, but Greninja and Sheik both have "pseudo-chain grabs". Basically, they can use a down-throw/up-throw to send an opponent up, SHFF an u-air (making sure to not land the last hit), and re-grab them as they hit the ground. Apparently, not landing the last hit causes the opponent to be spiked downwards. Alternatively, this can be used as a much safer spike than Dair. You are welcome to test it yourself.

 

[Erionn]

I don't think this has been brought up yet, but Greninja and Sheik both have "pseudo-chain grabs". Basically, they can use a down-throw/up-throw to send an opponent up, SHFF an u-air (making sure to not land the last hit), and re-grab them as they hit the ground. Apparently, not landing the last hit causes the opponent to be spiked downwards. Alternatively, this can be used as a much safer spike than Dair. You are welcome to test it yourself.

Up-air spiking has been known about for quite awhile, within a few days of the game being out in Japan.

 

[Accidental]

Up-air spiking has been known about for quite awhile, within a few days of the game being out in Japan.

Oh alright, I don't think I saw it in this thread. By any chance, do you know who can do it?

@ PsychicHero I think many of those combos you're discovering are really good, but they all rely on you reading your opponent. Most of those you mentioned are not true combos, they can be air-dodged or attacked (I always think of Yoshi's Nair, if it could come out at any point, your combo is not true). However, those are all really good things to be practicing. I think Greninja's Up-throw is his best throw by far because it can lead into so many of those follow-ups, all of which are able to beat one escape option or another with a rock-paper-scissors effect. For example, if you up-tilt or up-throw your opponent above you at mid-percent, and they airdodge immediately without jumping, you get a free charged up-smash while they fall back down to you. If they don't airdodge, you get a free short-hop up-air. If they airdodge late, you get a lot of stuff (double-jump nair or dair, full-hop ffalling upair spike, double-jump back-air if you read their DI left or right). Know that all of these are potential follow-ups and never stick to just one because it worked one time. Read your opponent and punish accordingly.

Its time for Hydro Pump

To quickly summarize, Hydro Pump (Greninja's UpB) is godlike. It is similar to Pikachu's UpB (quick-attack) in that it has two separate movements, each of which can be controlled by a different directional input in a cardinal or semi-cardinal direction (North, S, SW, NE etc). It differs from Pikachu's UpB in that Greninja's can travel twice in the SAME (semi)cardinal direction, e.g. HP twice in the up direction, and covers slightly less distance than Quick Attack. However, Hydro Pump ALSO has a secondary effect of using the water that Greninja shoots behind him to push opponents away. I believe the boards have uniformly accepted the term "Hydro Push" to describe this effect. It is also worth noting that each of Greninja's pumps has, at the end of the stream of water, a hitbox that deals a small amount of damage (2%?), which is what enables KOs off the top of the screen if you push your opponent high enough. For the rest of the post, I'll describe "Hydro Pump" simply as "HP", and "Hydro Push" as "HPS".

The uses of this move are countless. It recovers, it KOs, it spaces your opponent away, it deals damage, it helps in camping, it aids mobility, it gimps your opponent, it stalls their options, it has bubble for anti-air (i'll get to that), and its flashy as hell, i love it.

The problems are, it can be risky, you can SD using it, it has a tad too much startup lag for use in CQC, it can get predictable, it falls to better options that Greninja has in a lot of scenarios, 3DS makes it hard to control, and it can be airdodged.

Like I did with Shadow Sneak, I think I'll just talk about when I've found this move to be most effective in high-level play.

1. Gimps
More of you need to learn to gimp with this move. I can't even tell you how many KOs HPS has earned me, and in a game that no longer has edge-hogging and gimps are increasingly more rare, this move is a godsend. HPS outright destroys the UpB recovery of the following characters: Ness, Ike, Shulk, Kirby, Lilmac, PacMan. For any other character, UNLESS they use a recovery move and immediately snap to the ledge, they can be put into free-fall and HPS can knock them away from the stage to their demise. This works on everyone EXCEPT: Yoshi, BowserJR, G&W, DK, Lucario (sorta), Villager (sorta), Olimar (sorta), Megaman and Sonic. Most of these resist HPS because their UpB allows them to keep doing moves, which can interrupt you or enable them to recover in other ways anyway. The "sorta" characters are able to avoid HPS most of the time, and if they get hit, can most of the time still recover. If you connect perfectly, however, they will still die. The basic recipe for a HPS gimp KO is to wait at the edge for your recently-launched opponent to use a move to recover. Either hop offstage with them and use HP to get yourself back, shooting water at them in the process, or wait at the edge of the stage and do a single HPS away from the edge with perfect timing to catch their recovery as they use it. Enjoy the free stock and fill your shurikens with your opponent's tears.

2. KO
Launch your opponent above and away from the stage with an attack. Chase them into the upper corners close to the blast zone. Use your first burst of HP to get even higher and closer to them in the corner. This will usually elicit an airdodge from your opponent if they haven't done so already. Use your second burst to HPS them into the upper blast zone, where your hitbox will KO them. THE ONLY WAYS FOR YOUR OPPONENT TO SURVIVE THIS ARE WITH AIRDODGE OR MOMENTUM CANCEL OF SOME KIND...or if you just miss. If you connect with HPS and they're high enough, they will die. The reason this became a habit of mine is because it is almost 100% safe. Your second burst of HP will always be pointed up, meaning Greninja will be sent down. While your opponent is busy either dying or trying to dodge HPS, you will already be on your way back to the stage. Unless they are able to hit you between your two bursts of HP (unlikely, you shouldn't be THAT close), you'll be fine. It has never happened to me.

3. Recovery
Obviously, this is what the move was meant for, but it is far more complex at high level than just "UpB to the ledge". That may always be your safest option, and it is a very good one, but sometimes your opponent will try very hard to cover it so you will have to get more creative to recovery safely. The first alternative that comes to mind is to recover over the stage. Usually, this is a no-no, but with HPS, it becomes completely viable. If your opponent is standing at the edge and waiting to guard you, and their offstage game makes you question the option of recovering low, then RECOVER THROUGH THEM. This may only trick your opponent once, but that may be all you need to win the set. You HP into your opponent or above and past them, and your second HP should push them away as you land, making it NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO PUNISH. Use the angles available to your HP to mix up this option, and use the second HP to mix up where you land. Imo, SS is still a safer recovery option, but it requires more forward-thinking. If you didn't start charging SS while you were recovering, HP over the stage could be your safest last-second option (assuming the ledge is unsafe).

4. Bubble
I haven't found a consistently reliable scenario in which to use this, but I'll explain it first and maybe you guys can help me find one. If Greninja is on the ground, you can use HP, but not twice unless the first one is into the air. In other words, you can't HP on the ground forward and then again backwards without your feet leaving the stage. You can, however, HP away once and stay grounded. Another option is to use Bubble, which won't send you far away like a single HP would. To do this, input UpB and then any variation of the direction "down" immediately afterwards. Greninja will always turn to face towards the direction you sent the bubble if he wasn't already, and only travel a small distance across the floor. Taking 90 degrees to be straight up, there are 7 approximate directions to send a bubble: 25°, 45°, 65°, 90° (up), and then around the opposite way aka -65°, -45°, -25°. If you try to bubble at 0° in either direction (right/left aka East West) you will do the single HP away that I mentioned before. To clarify, all of this is only possible with a single UpB input from the ground aimed DOWN (plus an angle). Please help me find a use for this, its awesome. So far, its only a decent anti-air move to be used defensively. The range on Bubble is the only thing that even makes it worth it. Without that, there is probably a better option for Greninja to do every time.

There's honestly a ton of other uses for this move, but they're very situational. If anything, the reason I'm posting this is because I think there is more to be discovered and I want to encourage all of you to employ HP and HPS heavily and diversely into your arsenal if you haven't already. Only then can we find out everything it can do.

TL;DR: Use Hydro Pump a lot, its amazing.

I know this has been mentioned somewhere, but Hydro Pump sends the target up and away from you. If you use it at the start of, say, Link or Robin's recovery, they will die. Reason being, it adds a separate velocity to their current one.

 

[DrSoussou]

Oh alright, I don't think I saw it in this thread. By any chance, do you know who can do it?

Greninja does not have a true combo with this technique. If you go to the Greninja video thread, you will see clips of people doing just that, but it is always based on a read of their opponent's airdodges or something. Greninja can't follow up with anything really after a down throw or forward through beyond low percent.

DDD actually has the same property on his down air. His is not a true combo either, but he can do the same tech after up throw at low percent and then down throw at mid/high percent.

Sheik may actually have a true combo on hers. Down-throw to short-hop, fast-fall up-air spike into re-grab and repeat. Not sure what percent this goes on to, but it starts at 0%.

Rob and Samus have similar spinning up-airs with multiple hits, but I'm not sure if their moves have a spike hitbox. Need to test those as well as Pikachu back-air and a couple other moves.

 

[Accidental]

Greninja does not have a true combo with this technique. If you go to the Greninja video thread, you will see clips of people doing just that, but it is always based on a read of their opponent's airdodges or something. Greninja can't follow up with anything really after a down throw or forward through beyond low percent.

DDD actually has the same property on his down air. His is not a true combo either, but he can do the same tech after up throw at low percent and then down throw at mid/high percent.

Sheik may actually have a true combo on hers. Down-throw to short-hop, fast-fall up-air spike into re-grab and repeat. Not sure what percent this goes on to, but it starts at 0%.

Rob and Samus have similar spinning up-airs with multiple hits, but I'm not sure if their moves have a spike hitbox. Need to test those as well as Pikachu back-air and a couple other moves.

I've done a bit of testing myself, and down throw and forward throw do not work for this. However, up throw will work, up to around 50%. Sheik's works up to 90%, as far as I know.

 

[DrSoussou]

This is partially incorrect as shadow sneak can interrupt and punish both ZSS and LINK fsmashes after the first hit. Also when you SS hitstun-cancel, greninja pops upward a bit meaning you could theoretically dodge some follow up with it.

So I've experienced a bit of this and seen it in a couple videos, and I now understand what you were talking about. Seems like there are a couple of frames surrounding initial hitstun where SS can start and cancel knock back...

I don't see this being easy to master consistently, but if it works on any move at any percent...we could theoretically never die lol. I'm gonna try really hard to test this but I probably won't have smash all weekend so we'll see

 

[bajisci]

So I've experienced a bit of this and seen it in a couple videos, and I now understand what you were talking about. Seems like there are a couple of frames surrounding initial hitstun where SS can start and cancel knock back...

I don't see this being easy to master consistently, but if it works on any move at any percent...we could theoretically never die lol. I'm gonna try really hard to test this but I probably won't have smash all weekend so we'll see

It only works with non-tumble hitstun.

 

[Jmacz]

@ DrSoussou if I'm understanding you that "bubble" technique you are talking about can used to push characters off the stage during certain moves. I've hit it on D3's up b, and Bowser's down b. I'm also pretty sure Raykz has a video of him hitting a Yoshi with it during his down A.

 

[DrSoussou]

@ DrSoussou if I'm understanding you that "bubble" technique you are talking about can used to push characters off the stage during certain moves. I've hit it on D3's up b, and Bowser's down b. I'm also pretty sure Raykz has a video of him hitting a Yoshi with it during his down A.

Correct, its basically just the ending hitbox of Hydro Pump taken into isolation. It retains the properties of Hydro Push and deals a tiny bit of damage as well.

 

[Jmacz]

Correct, its basically just the ending hitbox of Hydro Pump taken into isolation. It retains the properties of Hydro Push and deals a tiny bit of damage as well.

Ahh okay I misunderstood your post, I thought you didn't know you could do it but now I assume that is what you were talking about when you said, "its only a decent anti-air move".

Edit to avoid Double post:

Not sure if this is already known but on stages like Guar Plain Shadow Sneak can be used off-stage to stage spike. I know that people have been using back air for this but for whatever reason I suck at it. I was facing a Link that kept recovering really low so I ran off the ledge did a quick shadow sneak behind me without charging and it spiked him at like 98%.

 

[Gnarok]

I just came here to post about the "bubble" as well. Some initial testing in training mode suggests that it does 2% damage every time and a small-moderate amount of horizontal knockback.

One other thing to note - it seems like Greninja doesn't need to start on the ground to "bubble". I'm not 100% certain on this, but it looks like you can use the 1st part of HP to land on the ground, and the 2nd part as an anti-air bubble by inputting down like you would to bubble while standing. I'm not sure if that changes all that much, but it seems like it has good mind game potential.

 

[Opana]

2 things, sorry if old:

-Using Shadow Sneak at the ledge makes it stop, but jumping makes it act like it's been extending and teleport you there

-Wall jumping into shadow sneak allows you to land on the ledge and hit them

 

[Funkermonster]

This has probably already been known and has likely been in the past Smash games, but I thought I'd point it out anyway just in case isn't:

When standing on a platform in Battlefield, I accidentally somehow did a Dair on a platform without jumpin or fastfalling, and I was still standing on the same platform. I had Tap Jump completely off and I don't know the exact input on how to do it, but I usually pushed the circle pad upwards then downwards pressing the A button finally, and I got a Grounded Dair around half the time (the other half led to accidental Usmashes and Dsmashes, or sometimes fastfallen Nairs). Does not work if you are standing on the stage itself, but still has a hitbox active. I was able to hit (my training dummy) with it sometimes and I think I remember got a meteor sound effect when it happened. I'm just going to call this a Tiger Knee Dair

I'm not seeing much competitive practical use for this given Dair's cooldown and short-horizontal range, but maybe someone here can help me test this, might prove me wrong. Haven't tried it with his other aerials, but I doubt they work. Maybe other characters with stall-then-fall dairs could do it too....

 

[Accidental]

This has probably already been known and has likely been in the past Smash games, but I thought I'd point it out anyway just in case isn't:

When standing on a platform in Battlefield, I accidentally somehow did a Dair on a platform without jumpin or fastfalling, and I was still standing on the same platform. I had Tap Jump completely off and I don't know the exact input on how to do it, but I usually pushed the circle pad upwards then downwards pressing the A button finally, and I got a Grounded Dair around half the time (the other half led to accidental Usmashes and Dsmashes, or sometimes fastfallen Nairs). Does not work if you are standing on the stage itself, but still has a hitbox active. I was able to hit (my training dummy) with it sometimes and I think I remember got a meteor sound effect when it happened. I'm just going to call this a Tiger Knee Dair

I'm not seeing much competitive practical use for this given Dair's cooldown and short-horizontal range, but maybe someone here can help me test this, might prove me wrong. Haven't tried it with his other aerials, but I doubt they work. Maybe other characters with stall-then-fall dairs could do it too....

It may have been that the game registered it as falling through the platform, but some weird thing with hitboxes caused the game to recognize you as being ABOVE the platform, not below. Just my two cents.

 

[KERO]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but I'm sure we're all familiar with how annoying it is to bounce off from a ledge when you Hydro Pump at it. It takes away your double jump and your Up-B, leaving no way to recover... for the most part. However, there are certain stages where it is still possible.

On the block Omega stages and Yoshi's Island (sadly, not Tomodachi Life as the ledge is too close to the blast zone), if you bounce off the ledge trying to grab it, immediately hold the control pad/stick toward the stage to eventually get to the wall and wall cling. Then, simply press whatever button you have assigned to jump to do a double jump off the wall, and you will barely grab the ledge. Now, this is not exactly an ideal situation to be forced into, but it's better than having no way back at all. Admittedly, this is actually pretty hard to do on Yoshi's Island (you need to bounce off the upper half of the ledge to be able to wall cling high enough for the double jump to reach), but the omega stages aren't too bad.

Edit: So, now that I've gotten to mess around quite a bit more, some other things I've figured out. His dash attack canceled grab will be useful for continuing things that combo into grab a bit longer, and it's really hard to mess up and only do a dash attack, so that's neat.

I've also found that once Uthrow throws characters up high enough, you can safely jump, double jump, and Up-B. I've found that a silly but surprisingly effective way to get early kills is to Uthrow at around 80+%, jump and double jump toward wherever they are going, and then Up-B at an angle toward them and then straight down. Alternatively, you can Up-B straight up and then at an angle downward so that the stream goes toward where you think they'll go if you need more height. It's especially useful against floaties.

More stuff I decided to put into this bloated post. Shadow Dash (Idk about Shadow Sneak) seems to have a property where if you start it when Greninja's body is about half ways (visually) above a platform and your destination would put you on that platform, even though you fall below that height as you initiate the move, you'll teleport to the platform's top.

Speaking of Greninja's body, I really feel that he has a really strange landing hitbox. It seems to be lower than his entire extended body. I say this because his full hop clearly goes above the top platform of BF, but even Uairing can't get you to land on it in a single full hop. This would also explain why Greninja is so easily able to get out of a ton of jabs as he is actually able to land in between a lot of jabs, and a lack of landing lag allows him to shield immediately. This has probably already been discussed, but the first part of this post already has useful information, so I may as well post other musings that may or may not already be known.

 

[EndgameN]

I just got back from the Gamestop event and I'm not sure where to post this so I figure here is good as any?

While playing I noticed that Greninja can NO LONGER cancel dair into shadow sneak. That is all.

 

[Funkermonster]

I just got back from the Gamestop event and I'm not sure where to post this so I figure here is good as any?

While playing I noticed that Greninja can NO LONGER cancel dair into shadow sneak. That is all.

That,s kinda old news but thanks forthe confirmationt

 

[MoosyDoosy]

@ PsychicHero I think many of those combos you're discovering are really good, but they all rely on you reading your opponent. Most of those you mentioned are not true combos, they can be air-dodged or attacked (I always think of Yoshi's Nair, if it could come out at any point, your combo is not true). However, those are all really good things to be practicing. I think Greninja's Up-throw is his best throw by far because it can lead into so many of those follow-ups, all of which are able to beat one escape option or another with a rock-paper-scissors effect. For example, if you up-tilt or up-throw your opponent above you at mid-percent, and they airdodge immediately without jumping, you get a free charged up-smash while they fall back down to you. If they don't airdodge, you get a free short-hop up-air. If they airdodge late, you get a lot of stuff (double-jump nair or dair, full-hop ffalling upair spike, double-jump back-air if you read their DI left or right). Know that all of these are potential follow-ups and never stick to just one because it worked one time. Read your opponent and punish accordingly.

Its time for Hydro Pump

To quickly summarize, Hydro Pump (Greninja's UpB) is godlike. It is similar to Pikachu's UpB (quick-attack) in that it has two separate movements, each of which can be controlled by a different directional input in a cardinal or semi-cardinal direction (North, S, SW, NE etc). It differs from Pikachu's UpB in that Greninja's can travel twice in the SAME (semi)cardinal direction, e.g. HP twice in the up direction, and covers slightly less distance than Quick Attack. However, Hydro Pump ALSO has a secondary effect of using the water that Greninja shoots behind him to push opponents away. I believe the boards have uniformly accepted the term "Hydro Push" to describe this effect. It is also worth noting that each of Greninja's pumps has, at the end of the stream of water, a hitbox that deals a small amount of damage (2%?), which is what enables KOs off the top of the screen if you push your opponent high enough. For the rest of the post, I'll describe "Hydro Pump" simply as "HP", and "Hydro Push" as "HPS".

The uses of this move are countless. It recovers, it KOs, it spaces your opponent away, it deals damage, it helps in camping, it aids mobility, it gimps your opponent, it stalls their options, it has bubble for anti-air (i'll get to that), and its flashy as hell, i love it.

The problems are, it can be risky, you can SD using it, it has a tad too much startup lag for use in CQC, it can get predictable, it falls to better options that Greninja has in a lot of scenarios, 3DS makes it hard to control, and it can be airdodged.

Like I did with Shadow Sneak, I think I'll just talk about when I've found this move to be most effective in high-level play.

1. Gimps
More of you need to learn to gimp with this move. I can't even tell you how many KOs HPS has earned me, and in a game that no longer has edge-hogging and gimps are increasingly more rare, this move is a godsend. HPS outright destroys the UpB recovery of the following characters: Ness, Ike, Shulk, Kirby, Lilmac, PacMan. For any other character, UNLESS they use a recovery move and immediately snap to the ledge, they can be put into free-fall and HPS can knock them away from the stage to their demise. This works on everyone EXCEPT: Yoshi, BowserJR, G&W, DK, Lucario (sorta), Villager (sorta), Olimar (sorta), Megaman and Sonic. Most of these resist HPS because their UpB allows them to keep doing moves, which can interrupt you or enable them to recover in other ways anyway. The "sorta" characters are able to avoid HPS most of the time, and if they get hit, can most of the time still recover. If you connect perfectly, however, they will still die. The basic recipe for a HPS gimp KO is to wait at the edge for your recently-launched opponent to use a move to recover. Either hop offstage with them and use HP to get yourself back, shooting water at them in the process, or wait at the edge of the stage and do a single HPS away from the edge with perfect timing to catch their recovery as they use it. Enjoy the free stock and fill your shurikens with your opponent's tears.

2. KO
Launch your opponent above and away from the stage with an attack. Chase them into the upper corners close to the blast zone. Use your first burst of HP to get even higher and closer to them in the corner. This will usually elicit an airdodge from your opponent if they haven't done so already. Use your second burst to HPS them into the upper blast zone, where your hitbox will KO them. THE ONLY WAYS FOR YOUR OPPONENT TO SURVIVE THIS ARE WITH AIRDODGE OR MOMENTUM CANCEL OF SOME KIND...or if you just miss. If you connect with HPS and they're high enough, they will die. The reason this became a habit of mine is because it is almost 100% safe. Your second burst of HP will always be pointed up, meaning Greninja will be sent down. While your opponent is busy either dying or trying to dodge HPS, you will already be on your way back to the stage. Unless they are able to hit you between your two bursts of HP (unlikely, you shouldn't be THAT close), you'll be fine. It has never happened to me.

3. Recovery
Obviously, this is what the move was meant for, but it is far more complex at high level than just "UpB to the ledge". That may always be your safest option, and it is a very good one, but sometimes your opponent will try very hard to cover it so you will have to get more creative to recovery safely. The first alternative that comes to mind is to recover over the stage. Usually, this is a no-no, but with HPS, it becomes completely viable. If your opponent is standing at the edge and waiting to guard you, and their offstage game makes you question the option of recovering low, then RECOVER THROUGH THEM. This may only trick your opponent once, but that may be all you need to win the set. You HP into your opponent or above and past them, and your second HP should push them away as you land, making it NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO PUNISH. Use the angles available to your HP to mix up this option, and use the second HP to mix up where you land. Imo, SS is still a safer recovery option, but it requires more forward-thinking. If you didn't start charging SS while you were recovering, HP over the stage could be your safest last-second option (assuming the ledge is unsafe).

4. Bubble
I haven't found a consistently reliable scenario in which to use this, but I'll explain it first and maybe you guys can help me find one. If Greninja is on the ground, you can use HP, but not twice unless the first one is into the air. In other words, you can't HP on the ground forward and then again backwards without your feet leaving the stage. You can, however, HP away once and stay grounded. Another option is to use Bubble, which won't send you far away like a single HP would. To do this, input UpB and then any variation of the direction "down" immediately afterwards. Greninja will always turn to face towards the direction you sent the bubble if he wasn't already, and only travel a small distance across the floor. Taking 90 degrees to be straight up, there are 7 approximate directions to send a bubble: 25°, 45°, 65°, 90° (up), and then around the opposite way aka -65°, -45°, -25°. If you try to bubble at 0° in either direction (right/left aka East West) you will do the single HP away that I mentioned before. To clarify, all of this is only possible with a single UpB input from the ground aimed DOWN (plus an angle). Please help me find a use for this, its awesome. So far, its only a decent anti-air move to be used defensively. The range on Bubble is the only thing that even makes it worth it. Without that, there is probably a better option for Greninja to do every time.

There's honestly a ton of other uses for this move, but they're very situational. If anything, the reason I'm posting this is because I think there is more to be discovered and I want to encourage all of you to employ HP and HPS heavily and diversely into your arsenal if you haven't already. Only then can we find out everything it can do.

TL;DR: Use Hydro Pump a lot, its amazing.

Nice write up and all, but have you read these threads at all? I know people are going to 100% call me out as a douchebag, but it makes me mad to see someone posting **** everyone knows already and someone's researched already, not to mention it's super redundant and annoying to parse through stuff every time someone decides to make a super long post about "awesome" finds.

 

[Sosuke]

just wait until the Wii U version is out and people are taking the game more seriously

 

[Spirst]

I wonder how flooded this board is going to be once the Wii U version drops. Greninja seems to be a popular character for the 3DS so I can only see it increasing for the Wii U.

 

[TTYK]

@ Gunla Where are the AT's?

 

[Gunla]

@ Gunla Where are the AT's?

With the upcoming balance patch and whatnot, I've been juggling ideas on how I want to do it. Apologies to all you folks as my schedule has delayed this update.

As it stands, I think the best option is just suggestion and agreement from others in the thread.

That being said, suggest away!

 

[Alphamew17]

SO did you guys know that you can fast fall during Greninja's Side-b, making you warp on a downward angle and hitting people sooner than expected?

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

SO did you guys know that you can fast fall during Greninja's Side-b, making you warp on a downward angle and hitting people sooner than expected?

Yes.

 

[Alphamew17]

Yes.

Ok then.

 

[EndgameN]

HOLY MACKERAL WAIT TILL YOU SEE THIS. Greninja can possibly infinite his upair by not getting the last hit in for minimal knockback. Tested it on Bowser at 999% in training and it still combos into itself. Video soon.

 

[Alphamew17]

The new update just killed some moves on greninja. No more (effective) U-air spike, no D-Air into Side-b, no Fastfall Side-B...

 

[Sabaca]

The important part of the sideb cancel remove is not the D-Air stuff , the dair stuff ist useless anyway because side b is laggy as hell too and the dair stuff only worked against players with no experience against it. That you can't get out of some attacks with canceling the hitstun is the real nerf. e.g. i cannot avoid the strong hits of diddys smashes anymore.

 

[DrSoussou]

Nice write up and all, but have you read these threads at all? I know people are going to 100% call me out as a douchebag, but it makes me mad to see someone posting **** everyone knows already and someone's researched already, not to mention it's super redundant and annoying to parse through stuff every time someone decides to make a super long post about "awesome" finds.

No one asked you to read anything. I know for a fact some of the stuff I posted was new to at least some people. This is supposed to be a thread for sharing info, and I know we would all rather sift through a few redundancies than open the thread to find nothing.

Don't dissuade people from posting just because you're too dumb to skim through things you already know, especially if you're not contributing anything.