Official Mysterious Arsenal - Greninja Information & AT Thread

[momochuu]

combo counter isnt hitting 3 so i'm probably going too slow

 

[Chiroz]

at what percent are they true combos?

Depends on the opponen'ts weight and fall speed, we would have to make a list for every character individually.

As long as you can't Up-Air them (because Greninja short hops too high) then Up-Smash is a true combo. Once Up-Smash is not a true combo then they are high enough where a well timed SH-Up Air is a true combo.

There's no escaping our Up-Throw comboes .

 

[momochuu]

i was trying it on mario and it didnt work

 

[Spirst]

I wouldn't approach with nair. It doesn't have much in the way of range, I don't think the hotbox lingers long, and is easily shield grabbed. I find that a good approach with Greninja is to be very reactionary. I usually go in to bait an attack, shield grab>u throw, then read their DI with an uthrow. Uthrow to uthrow is very character dependent. The floater ones seem to be able to air dodge just fine. At that point, it's best to just fast fall then utilt to get them up.

 

[Chiroz]

i was trying it on mario and it didnt work

What didn't work? I just tested it like 15 times with a level 9 CPU Mario on training on both "Jump" and "Run" and it works 100% of the time. They might VI/DI slightly to the right or the left. The only time I missed it was because Mario was too far to the left because he VI/DI left and I stayed put, but as long as you step slightly in that direction it always works (All tests were done on sub 10% damage).

 

[momochuu]

huh...maybe i'm just too slow. the combo counter is saying 3 too?

 

[Chiroz]

huh...maybe i'm just too slow. the combo counter is saying 3 too?

The combo counter says 2, it's a sweetspotted U-Smash. It says "1" when I throw and then 2 when I land the U-Smash.

 

[momochuu]

but sweetspot up smash is still two hits...

watch the combo counter. it resets. up air is six hits. when i do up throw into up air it says seven.

 

[Chiroz]

but sweetspot up smash is still two hits...

watch the combo counter. it resets. up air is six hits. when i do up throw into up air it says seven.

I can't see it reset because both hits hit at the exact same time, it just goes 1 to 2. Anyways it doesn't really matter. Even if it isn't a true combo by "training mode" standards your opponent can't even double jump out of it or dodge out (a level 9 CPU is frame perfect).

Maybe 1 frame attacks might be able to interrupt it if it isn't a "true" combo, but those are very few in the game and most of them would either not help your opponent avoid the hit anyways or place him in a worse position.


Edit: Actually I will test it vs a Megaman Up-B. It is known that Megaman has a 1 frame Up-B summon, so if we want a 1 frame escape Megaman is our man (You could also Down-B with Pikachu).

 

[momochuu]

i see what you mean now by the no airdodging or jumping thing. i'm testing it on bowser and he can airdodge the up smash, but mario can't. time to test this on everyone else...

 

[Chiroz]

i see what you mean now by the no airdodging or jumping thing. i'm testing it on bowser and he can airdodge the up smash, but mario can't. time to test this on everyone else...

You are right, wtf. Why can Bowser dodge out of it I wonder. Maybe heavy weights have less hitstun since they are launched less? Well, I guess it might not be an assured combo after all on some characters. Plus it only works at very low %. Until now I had never failed that follow up whenever I tried to land it (which is whenever I grab someone below like 5% damage, AKA almost never). CPU Bowser is the first ever able to do that.

 

[momochuu]

list so far:

mario - yes
luigi - no
peach - no
bowser - no
yoshi - no
rosalina - yes, but hard
bowser jr. - yes
wario - no
mr. game and watch - no
dk - no
diddy - no
link - no
zelda - no
sheik - yes, but hard
ganondorf - no

 

[T-block]

Basically.

Am I missing something? B-air seems to have significant landing lag when I do it x.x

Still a decent poke because of its range, but it's not even close to n-air in terms of landing lag.

 

[Chiroz]

Am I missing something? B-air seems to have significant landing lag when I do it x.x

Still a decent poke because of its range, but it's not even close to n-air in terms of landing lag.

B-Air does has more lag than N-Air but it isn't that much. At least that's what it seems like to me when I play (I don't know any frame data or anything). I don't like to N-Air approach a lot because it can be easily shield grabbed or jabbed after shield. B-Air has enough range and the lag is low enough where it's relatively safe from most common punishes if spaced.

I do however N-Air into my opponent sometimes but it depends on my opponent's playstyle and what I notice about him/how he reacts.

 

[Spirst]

I find that the multi-hit of the b-air is a good trade-off for the slightly more landing lag in comparison to n-air.

 

[Chiroz]

I find that the multi-hit of the b-air is a good trade-off for the slightly more landing lag in comparison to n-air.

It's more about the safety in the range. But yea multi-hit is nice. The only problem I have with B-Air is that sometimes I mistime it and land before the final hit which means my opponent doesn't get knocked back or hit stunned and punishes me. But this is all my fault and honestly it happens rarely.

That and the fact that I can't properly space B-Air's or do retreating back airs with correct spacing. Can't wait for the Wii U version.

 

[Spirst]

It's more about the safety in the range. But yea multi-hit is nice. The only problem I have with B-Air is that sometimes I mistime it and land before the final hit which means my opponent doesn't get knocked back or hit stunned and punishes me. But this is all my fault and honestly it happens rarely.

That and the fact that I can't properly space B-Air's or do retreating back airs with correct spacing. Can't wait for the Wii U version.

I'm not sure about the exact frames, but I think the multi-hit is generally safer as opposed to the quicker n-air in case they drop their shield too early in anticipation. I feel like n-air ends too quickly to be of real use in actual approaches. I can't wait until the Wii U version either. It's tough doing a number of shorthopped aerials with just a circle pad. I use Jigglypuff too and she's dependant upon quick shorthopped aerials so it's a huge pain in the ass.

 

[Gunla]

Anyone who has the names of Greninja's custom moves, please send them to me via PM.

I'm currently working on finishing the moveset in the OP, and I only have a few of his customs.

 

[Chiroz]

Posting this here so no one misses it.

Ok guys some new discoveries I've made over the past few days:

I was wrong about neutral B, charging it doesn't make its range shorter or speed slower actually this is what happens. Apparently there's 2 different versions of neutral B.

1-) Fully charged shuriken
2-) Not fully charged shuriken.

Fully charged shurikens have less range and travel slower than not fully charged shuriken, it also has different properties being a multi-hit transcendent hitbox that drags opponents.

Non-full charged shurikens all share the exact same range and speed, no matter how much you charge them. As long as it's not fully charged it will travel the same distance and speed. Here's the cool thing though, distance is measured from Greninja's hand to the center of the shuriken. What exactly does this mean? Well it means that the bigger the shuriken the more range it has if only by very little. The center of the shuriken reaches the same exact spot but because the shuriken is slightly bigger it reaches very slightly farther.

This means that learning to charge the shuriken just enough to gain that little amount of range (and damage) might actually be worth it. I tested it out and uncharged shuriken has many stages.

S1-) 3%
2-) 4%
3-) 5%
4-) 6%
5-) 7%

There might be more stages but I forgot if they were, will recheck soon.




Side-B has 2 variants as most of you know. A flip and a backwards kick. The backwards kick actually does around 20-25% more damage and knockback but doesn't cover as much vertical area around Greninja. Normally the attacks are auto-homed on your opponent, which means Greninja will attack in the direction your opponent resides. But you can directly control which attack you want.

If your opponent is going to end up in front of you then turn around just before releasing B. You can turn around as close to releasing B as you want it just has to be before (Turning around closer to releasing B doesn't let your opponent know you turned around). Sometimes though when the input is to close to the release of B, or when Greninja is very close to max range (of the attack) or if you keep holding the direction then Greninja will just do the flip attack backwards and completely miss your opponent. In order to avoid this happening I recommend holding the direction you want your attack to hit right as Greninja reappears.

With this technique you can always control which of the 2 attacks you want to perform. Whether it be the flip for the hitbox on the top area of Greninja or whether you want the kick for higher damage and knockback, you can always choose which one you want.






Still unconfirmed stuff:

Being able to run while charging Shadow Sneak. Until now this seems to just happen randomly. I still have no idea why sometimes you can run while charging Shadow Sneak when most of the times you can't.




Bouncing from the ledge when Hydro Pumping: (@ Sosuke )

I have a good theory about this. I was testing this theory but there's no 100% way to prove this so, for now, it's just a theory.

The ledge only has a snap on the bottom of it. If you are falling from the top and stay close to the edge you won'y actually snap until you are at its level or lower (unlike coming from the bottom which auto snaps you). The ledge also has a little bit of an "invisible wall" right on top of it, I am sure you've all clinger by mistake to the ledge at least once. Why does this cling happen instead of you grabbing the ledge? Simply put your character (Greninja/Sheik/etc) is slightly above the snap range but is low enough range where the invisible wall stops him. It's basically a "sweetspot" on the ledge (or sourspot really as it's normally bad for us$) that doesn't allow you to snap on it but does allow your character to recognize that there's a wall there.

If you hit this spot when Up-Bing towards the ledge then you will bounce and fall to your death just like if you had hit a wall.

I wasn't able to test this "spot" with the Up-B, but I was able to test it with jumps. I was able to consistently jump and "cling" onto the ledge instead of regrabbing it. If you want to learn this sourspot then just keep trying to cling onto the top of the ledge (aim for a little above the ledge instead of the ledge itself) until you understand where this spot relies.

It's good to note that this is a theory and not a fact. So the reason why Up-B bounces could be completely different, but until now this is all I got.





I have another cool fact about Greninja's ledge game and returning to the stage from the ledge that I will post later tonight. It's something apparently unique to Greninja.

Anyone who has the names of Greninja's custom moves, please send them to me via PM.

I'm currently working on finishing the moveset in the OP, and I only have a few of his customs.

I got them all. I'll PM you with them.

 

[AlexAnthonyD]

This was being discussed almost a page back but just for approaching with Greninja's Nair I feel like the goal is to basically land right in front of your opponent so you can start a jab combo/grab not necessarily to hit them directly with the Nair. The function of the air attack is more to protect yourself incase someone decides to attack out of shield, the true value comes in the immediate follow up which is granted due to zero landing lag.

 

[Erionn]

@ Chiroz I posted in your other thread about the running Sneak Shadow. I was able to get it consistently playing at 1/4th speed frame by frame in training mode, it is a specific small frame window that you have to input Side-B to run while using it. I cannot get it at all playing at normal speed though.

On another note, I hate Omega stages that don't have walls to cling onto.

EDIT: I did some more testing and figured out exactly when you have to input Side-B to keep running. If you notice in Greninja's run animation, he initially does a small leap with both feet off the ground, and a couple of frames later, his left foot touches the ground first. If you input Side-B after he starts to put his left foot down, but before it touches the ground, he will continue running.

I'm able to consistently get it on 1/4 and 1/2 speeds, maybe 50% of the time on 2/3, but it's still incredibly hard to do at full speed.

 

[bubbaking]

Hey guys! Even before the game came out, Greninja looked like the coolest character to me, so I figured I'd try my hand with him. I already have all of Greninja's custom specials, and as I initially suspected, they really do make him a lot better. Now I really hope custom specials are legal. Here's what I've figured out so far:

[collapse=Specials]Neutral B: #1 - Decent projectile.

#2 - Greninja throws a shuriken which HOVERS in place where he threw it. It looks like a really good anti-approach tool. He takes slightly longer to throw the shuriken than he does for #1, but the shuriken is always larger in return. The longer he charges the shuriken (aka the larger the shuriken is), the longer it stays out, and he can move while the shuriken is still out after he's placed it. Since the shuriken hovers wherever he threw it, he can even place it offstage, such as in front of the ledge. It may also be able to remove projectiles heading his way. This variation looks like it might be a very good option in some MUs.

#3 - This flat-out seems to be the worst shuriken variation. If you tap B, he throws a slow Shuriken that only goes a short distance. If you hold B, he throws a fast Shuriken that goes a long distance. The two options have the same start-up and lag (which admittedly isn't much), but I'm afraid I'd rather use #1 or #2 in most MUs.

Side B: #1 - Seems like it could be useful in teams but not in Singles.

#2 - This variation is slower than #1 in nearly EVERY way (shadow moves slower and Greninja goes into a longer teleport start-up animation). The move is stronger (seems like it can even kill), but it's not worth the increased start-up, IMO. Even the teleport itself seems slow enough to react to, and it still has the same lag.

#3 - Probably the absolute best of the sideB variations. Greninja instantly teleports a set distance in front of him and attacks. The teleport is pretty fast, so it seems unlikely that anyone could just react to it without prior warning. The move itself is weak, though, and it has the same lag as all the other side B variations. More stuff on teleports later.

Up B: #1 - Great recovery or get-away move.

#2 - Slower than #1, but pretty much double the distance. Seems incredible both at recovery and getting away from the opponent (can traverse the entire stage) but its decreased speed could be a problem.

#3 - Greninja quickly shoots himself (only) upwards about the same distance as #2. He can drift left and right as he falls down but not very quickly, so he doesn't cover much horizontal distance. This move seems great for vertical recovery and it's fast, but honestly, #1 is still a good recovery choice while being just as fast, and #2 covers the same distance and offers more mix-up options (can change directions and such), so why ever use #3? Will go over that later.

Didn't extensively test down B yet because everything here was done in the customization 'test' mode against Sandbag, so there was no way for me to trigger the counters. However, down B #2 seems interesting because it's not a counter. Early into the move, Greninja disappears (don't know if he's intangible, though) and then quickly reappears with an explosion. It also appeared strong enough to kill at high %'s, making it potentially a good counterattack option.[/collapse]

[collapse="More on teleports"]Obviously Greninja can cross up his opponent with any variation of sideB. However, he can ALSO turn around at any point during the teleport before he reappears. Right as (or before) Greninja 'poofs', press the other direction and Greninja will turn around out of the teleport and attack, usually with a different attacking animation. Therefore, Greninja can cross-up his opponent and hit his backside with the move. Definitely makes it more useful, especially in teams.

I'm interested in testing whether Greninja is actually invincible during the full duration of the movement phase of his teleport, because it would mean that Greninja could sideB (probably #3) on reaction to projectiles or ranged attacks to hit an opponent. I'm imagining it as a sort of tool he could use to get past Luma and punish Rosalina in specific instances.[/collapse]

[collapse="UpB and a potential reason to use #3"]You may have noticed that the move is called Hydro Pump (or a variation of that) because Greninja shoots the pump in the opposite direction of the control stick in order to propel himself. This water is a far-reaching hitbox with varying effects depending on the upB variation.

#1 - The water hitbox can obviously be angled, has the least range out of all the variations, and does minimal damage while pushing the opponent a tiny bit, but it causes no hitstun.

#2 - The water hitbox, which can still be angled, has a lot more range than #1 and it still pushes the opponent away, but it does not give damage nor does it cause hitstun.

#3 - This water hitbox (only goes straight down) seems to have the most range out of all the variations. I could be at full double jump height above Sandbag (Greninja jumps extremely high, almost to the upper blastzone) and the hitbox would still hit him. This hitbox does the most damage and actually causes real hitstun.

So now I'm thinking, what if Greninja could just jump offstage and use his upB as a gimping tool the way Sonic would do in Brawl (and P:M)? #1 can be angled and actually does damage, and #2 has much more range than #1 while also being angle-able, but only #3 actually causes hitstun while still having an incredible amount of vertical range. This could be a great tool against certain types of recoveries and would be a big reason to use #3 over #1 or #2.[/collapse]

I apologize if any of this info is redundant.

 

[Chiroz]

Hey guys! Even before the game came out, Greninja looked like the coolest character to me, so I figured I'd try my hand with him. I already have all of Greninja's custom specials, and as I initially suspected, they really do make him a lot better. Now I really hope custom specials are legal. Here's what I've figured out so far:

[collapse=Specials]Neutral B: #1 - Decent projectile.

#2 - Greninja throws a shuriken which HOVERS in place where he threw it. It looks like a really good anti-approach tool. He takes slightly longer to throw the shuriken than he does for #1, but the shuriken is always larger in return. The longer he charges the shuriken (aka the larger the shuriken is), the longer it stays out, and he can move while the shuriken is still out after he's placed it. Since the shuriken hovers wherever he threw it, he can even place it offstage, such as in front of the ledge. It may also be able to remove projectiles heading his way. This variation looks like it might be a very good option in some MUs.

#3 - This flat-out seems to be the worst shuriken variation. If you tap B, he throws a slow Shuriken that only goes a short distance. If you hold B, he throws a fast Shuriken that goes a long distance. The two options have the same start-up and lag (which admittedly isn't much), but I'm afraid I'd rather use #1 or #2 in most MUs.

Side B: #1 - Seems like it could be useful in teams but not in Singles.

#2 - This variation is slower than #1 in nearly EVERY way (shadow moves slower and Greninja goes into a longer teleport start-up animation). The move is stronger (seems like it can even kill), but it's not worth the increased start-up, IMO. Even the teleport itself seems slow enough to react to, and it still has the same lag.

#3 - Probably the absolute best of the sideB variations. Greninja instantly teleports a set distance in front of him and attacks. The teleport is pretty fast, so it seems unlikely that anyone could just react to it without prior warning. The move itself is weak, though, and it has the same lag as all the other side B variations. More stuff on teleports later.

Up B: #1 - Great recovery or get-away move.

#2 - Slower than #1, but pretty much double the distance. Seems incredible both at recovery and getting away from the opponent (can traverse the entire stage) but its decreased speed could be a problem.

#3 - Greninja quickly shoots himself (only) upwards about the same distance as #2. He can drift left and right as he falls down but not very quickly, so he doesn't cover much horizontal distance. This move seems great for vertical recovery and it's fast, but honestly, #1 is still a good recovery choice while being just as fast, and #2 covers the same distance and offers more mix-up options (can change directions and such), so why ever use #3? Will go over that later.

Didn't extensively test down B yet because everything here was done in the customization 'test' mode against Sandbag, so there was no way for me to trigger the counters. However, down B #2 seems interesting because it's not a counter. Early into the move, Greninja disappears (don't know if he's intangible, though) and then quickly reappears with an explosion. It also appeared strong enough to kill at high %'s, making it potentially a good counterattack option.[/collapse]

[collapse="More on teleports"]Obviously Greninja can cross up his opponent with any variation of sideB. However, he can ALSO turn around at any point during the teleport before he reappears. Right as (or before) Greninja 'poofs', press the other direction and Greninja will turn around out of the teleport and attack, usually with a different attacking animation. Therefore, Greninja can cross-up his opponent and hit his backside with the move. Definitely makes it more useful, especially in teams.

I'm interested in testing whether Greninja is actually invincible during the full duration of the movement phase of his teleport, because it would mean that Greninja could sideB (probably #3) on reaction to projectiles or ranged attacks to hit an opponent. I'm imagining it as a sort of tool he could use to get past Luma and punish Rosalina in specific instances.[/collapse]

[collapse="UpB and a potential reason to use #3"]You may have noticed that the move is called Hydro Pump (or a variation of that) because Greninja shoots the pump in the opposite direction of the control stick in order to propel himself. This water is a far-reaching hitbox with varying effects depending on the upB variation.

#1 - The water hitbox can obviously be angled, has the least range out of all the variations, and does minimal damage while pushing the opponent a tiny bit, but it causes no hitstun.

#2 - The water hitbox, which can still be angled, has a lot more range than #1 and it still pushes the opponent away, but it does not give damage nor does it cause hitstun.

#3 - This water hitbox (only goes straight down) seems to have the most range out of all the variations. I could be at full double jump height above Sandbag (Greninja jumps extremely high, almost to the upper blastzone) and the hitbox would still hit him. This hitbox does the most damage and actually causes real hitstun.

So now I'm thinking, what if Greninja could just jump offstage and use his upB as a gimping tool the way Sonic would do in Brawl (and P:M)? #1 can be angled and actually does damage, and #2 has much more range than #1 while also being angle-able, but only #3 actually causes hitstun while still having an incredible amount of vertical range. This could be a great tool against certain types of recoveries and would be a big reason to use #3 over #1 or #2.[/collapse]

I apologize if any of this info is redundant.

Sorry to disappoint but most (if not all) of this info is already on my thread. Welcome to the Greninja boards though. Greninja is an awesome character :D.



By the way Shuriken 3 is the best of the 3 customs as long as you don't need to camp an opponent out. The non-charged one combos into any aerial that you want and at mid-high % the charged one true combos into Up-Smash without any DI/VI possibility for your opponent. Basically after about 70-100% (depending on your opponent) it's an 100% assured kill move that has an incredible amount of range. Not only that but it's better than any kill move Greninja has currently taking into account it does 7% damage and allows you to charge an Up-Smash about 1/3rd of the way through.

The only reason why I wouldn't pick #3 is because I might need to camp or harass my enemies with shurikens (and thus would need #1) which is something #2 can't do either.



Also while Hydro Pump 3 does help against recoveries like Link and maybe some other obvious ones, default Hydro Pump has so many uses and possibilities on stage as well as offstage that it's not really worth changing it, IMO. Hydro Pump is literally Greninja's best move in the game (This is without taking into consideration that Hydro Pump 3 makes your recovery extremely easy to gimp and makes your recovery path extremely predictable, both of which will lead to opponents abusing this to get early kills on you).



Greninja is invincible while he is invisible (Side-B) and also has a very, very small window of super armor when he disappears/reappears.

I do use Side-B a lot to go through projectile spammers. Its awesome. Specially Rosalina and Luma. I've punished a lot of Rosalina's who mindlessly just throw Luma away. Not only do you go through Luma and punish Rosalina but Rosalina is now also without Luma making it easier for you to combo her. And if you get the chance you can easily kill Luma with one Smash (since Luma just falls when separated from Rosalina).

 

[Erionn]

Hey guys! Even before the game came out, Greninja looked like the coolest character to me, so I figured I'd try my hand with him. I already have all of Greninja's custom specials, and as I initially suspected, they really do make him a lot better. Now I really hope custom specials are legal. Here's what I've figured out so far:

[collapse=Specials]Neutral B: #1 - Decent projectile.

#2 - Greninja throws a shuriken which HOVERS in place where he threw it. It looks like a really good anti-approach tool. He takes slightly longer to throw the shuriken than he does for #1, but the shuriken is always larger in return. The longer he charges the shuriken (aka the larger the shuriken is), the longer it stays out, and he can move while the shuriken is still out after he's placed it. Since the shuriken hovers wherever he threw it, he can even place it offstage, such as in front of the ledge. It may also be able to remove projectiles heading his way. This variation looks like it might be a very good option in some MUs.

#3 - This flat-out seems to be the worst shuriken variation. If you tap B, he throws a slow Shuriken that only goes a short distance. If you hold B, he throws a fast Shuriken that goes a long distance. The two options have the same start-up and lag (which admittedly isn't much), but I'm afraid I'd rather use #1 or #2 in most MUs.

Side B: #1 - Seems like it could be useful in teams but not in Singles.

#2 - This variation is slower than #1 in nearly EVERY way (shadow moves slower and Greninja goes into a longer teleport start-up animation). The move is stronger (seems like it can even kill), but it's not worth the increased start-up, IMO. Even the teleport itself seems slow enough to react to, and it still has the same lag.

#3 - Probably the absolute best of the sideB variations. Greninja instantly teleports a set distance in front of him and attacks. The teleport is pretty fast, so it seems unlikely that anyone could just react to it without prior warning. The move itself is weak, though, and it has the same lag as all the other side B variations. More stuff on teleports later.

Up B: #1 - Great recovery or get-away move.

#2 - Slower than #1, but pretty much double the distance. Seems incredible both at recovery and getting away from the opponent (can traverse the entire stage) but its decreased speed could be a problem.

#3 - Greninja quickly shoots himself (only) upwards about the same distance as #2. He can drift left and right as he falls down but not very quickly, so he doesn't cover much horizontal distance. This move seems great for vertical recovery and it's fast, but honestly, #1 is still a good recovery choice while being just as fast, and #2 covers the same distance and offers more mix-up options (can change directions and such), so why ever use #3? Will go over that later.

Didn't extensively test down B yet because everything here was done in the customization 'test' mode against Sandbag, so there was no way for me to trigger the counters. However, down B #2 seems interesting because it's not a counter. Early into the move, Greninja disappears (don't know if he's intangible, though) and then quickly reappears with an explosion. It also appeared strong enough to kill at high %'s, making it potentially a good counterattack option.[/collapse]

[collapse="More on teleports"]Obviously Greninja can cross up his opponent with any variation of sideB. However, he can ALSO turn around at any point during the teleport before he reappears. Right as (or before) Greninja 'poofs', press the other direction and Greninja will turn around out of the teleport and attack, usually with a different attacking animation. Therefore, Greninja can cross-up his opponent and hit his backside with the move. Definitely makes it more useful, especially in teams.

I'm interested in testing whether Greninja is actually invincible during the full duration of the movement phase of his teleport, because it would mean that Greninja could sideB (probably #3) on reaction to projectiles or ranged attacks to hit an opponent. I'm imagining it as a sort of tool he could use to get past Luma and punish Rosalina in specific instances.[/collapse]

[collapse="UpB and a potential reason to use #3"]You may have noticed that the move is called Hydro Pump (or a variation of that) because Greninja shoots the pump in the opposite direction of the control stick in order to propel himself. This water is a far-reaching hitbox with varying effects depending on the upB variation.

#1 - The water hitbox can obviously be angled, has the least range out of all the variations, and does minimal damage while pushing the opponent a tiny bit, but it causes no hitstun.

#2 - The water hitbox, which can still be angled, has a lot more range than #1 and it still pushes the opponent away, but it does not give damage nor does it cause hitstun.

#3 - This water hitbox (only goes straight down) seems to have the most range out of all the variations. I could be at full double jump height above Sandbag (Greninja jumps extremely high, almost to the upper blastzone) and the hitbox would still hit him. This hitbox does the most damage and actually causes real hitstun.

So now I'm thinking, what if Greninja could just jump offstage and use his upB as a gimping tool the way Sonic would do in Brawl (and P:M)? #1 can be angled and actually does damage, and #2 has much more range than #1 while also being angle-able, but only #3 actually causes hitstun while still having an incredible amount of vertical range. This could be a great tool against certain types of recoveries and would be a big reason to use #3 over #1 or #2.[/collapse]

I apologize if any of this info is redundant.

I would never, ever use anything other than default Hydro Pump. The gimps are far too good to pass up for anything else.

 

[Sosuke]

http://puu.sh/c3UwJ.mp4

so how about that little mac guys

 

[Erionn]

http://puu.sh/c3UwJ.mp4

so how about that little mac guys

That's pretty much every game I have against Mac.

 

[mightychir]

http://puu.sh/c3UwJ.mp4

so how about that little mac guys

Definately gonna try that hahah

 

[Chiroz]

That's pretty much every game I have against Mac.

Yea but did you notice that you can push him after he has already landed and he's still in helpless mode. Mario and Greninja will not have a blast against Mac. Specially Mario who can FLUDD from half a stage away. Just make him use his side-B as recovery, bam, instant KO.

 

[Erionn]

Yea but did you notice that you can push him after he has already landed and he's still in helpless mode. Mario and Greninja will not have a blast against Mac. Specially Mario who can FLUDD from half a stage away. Just make him use his side-B as recovery, bam, instant KO.

Yeah. Someone streaming the Japanese version a week or two ago did the same thing, it was up on reddit somewhere.

Definitely feel bad for poor Mac.

 

[Chiroz]

So apparently Greninja can "slow fall". He also can instantly teleport Shadow Sneak to the ground.

So if you try to fast fall while charging Shadow Sneak then Greninja will go into a "slow fall". He will start to fall about the same as Jigglypuff's normal fall speed.

Now there's 2 things you can do from this point, you can either release the Shadow Sneak whenever you want which will make Greninja instantly teleport the height of his full jump downwards before performing Shadow Sneak.

Yes, you heard correctly, just by pressing down before releasing Shadow Sneak Greninja will instantly teleport to the ground (or just downwards if you are so incredibly high up in the air)!

The 2nd thing is cancelling the "instant downwards teleportation". I am sure you can cancel the instant downwards teleportation and do a normal Shadow Sneak upon releasing the charge. I still don't know how this is done because I only tested this for 5 minutes. I expect it to be something as simple as pressing upwards.

Being able to cancel this downwards teleportation allows you to use the "slow fall" part of the technique by itself without having to worry about dropping 10 feet into the ground.



I will post videos of this soon!



Edit:

The only way to cancel it seems to be by jumping which is a bummer as you will be required to save your second jump if you want to cancel it.

On other news you can also fast fall BEFORE performing Shadow Sneak and it also works.

If you instantly release side-B without charging it Greninja will actually Shadow Sneak downwards (he will teleport downwards with the attack) allowing you to punish opponents who air dodge one of your aerials by instantly dropping to the ground next to them. You can also punish people charging a Smash or something similar by dropping to their backs instantly.

 

[Sosuke]

i think i had something happen with moving upwards during shadow sneak, might have to do with inputting a jump during it

 

[Spirst]

So apparently Greninja can "slow fall". He also can instantly teleport Shadow Sneak to the ground.

So if you try to fast fall while charging Shadow Sneak then Greninja will go into a "slow fall". He will start to fall about the same as Jigglypuff's normal fall speed.

Now there's 2 things you can do from this point, you can either release the Shadow Sneak whenever you want which will make Greninja instantly teleport the height of his full jump downwards before performing Shadow Sneak.

Yes, you heard correctly, just by pressing down before releasing Shadow Sneak Greninja will instantly teleport to the ground (or just downwards if you are so incredibly high up in the air)!

The 2nd thing is cancelling the "instant downwards teleportation". I am sure you can cancel the instant downwards teleportation and do a normal Shadow Sneak upon releasing the charge. I still don't know how this is done because I only tested this for 5 minutes. I expect it to be something as simple as pressing upwards.

Being able to cancel this downwards teleportation allows you to use the "slow fall" part of the technique by itself without having to worry about dropping 10 feet into the ground.



I will post videos of this soon!



Edit:

The only way to cancel it seems to be by jumping which is a bummer as you will be required to save your second jump if you want to cancel it.

On other news you can also fast fall BEFORE performing Shadow Sneak and it also works.

If you instantly release side-B without charging it Greninja will actually Shadow Sneak downwards (he will teleport downwards with the attack) allowing you to punish opponents who air dodge one of your aerials by instantly dropping to the ground next to them. You can also punish people charging a Smash or something similar by dropping to their backs instantly.

This is actually pretty interesting. I can see this being used as a "trick" edgeguard of sorts. If you jump off high when the other player is recovering low, you can anticipate this and do the downwards shadow sneak to reappear right at the ledge and do a kick to send them back to the blastzone. I swear, new stuff keeps appearing to make me love this character even more.

 

[DakotaBonez]

So, is using Shadow Sneak on stages without shadows (PAC-Maze, Pictochat) an advantage or a disadvantage?

 

[Sosuke]

unquestionably an advantage

 

[Spirst]

So, is using Shadow Sneak on stages without shadows (PAC-Maze, Pictochat) an advantage or a disadvantage?

Needs a little more internalization of how his shadow sneak moves but overall, an advantage.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

Can we have a "Greninja Strategy Discussion" thread or something? Right now we have one for impressions and one for movesets and general information, but no strategy thread. Anyway moving on.

I feel that SHFF (short hop fast fall) Nair is actually legitimate as an approach. First of all, it's very easy to dismiss Nair with the argument that its range is terrible and it doesn't do much knockback. The goal IS NOT knockback. While short hop Nair has a very high chance of missing from a dash, you can pretty much aim where you want to go with the fast fall. AND Nair has very little lag when it lands. This means we can input an attack immediately after landing for a nice combo. Let me list some various situations (with little to no percentage on the opponent).

Ideal Situation: You SHFF Nair and hit the opponent. From here you can input any move, preferably Dtilt to pop them into the air. From there, you can do Utilt / Usmash -> Uair. If they opponent has no damage at all, it is also possible to grab them after the Dtilt for more percentage.

Shield Situation: You SHFF Nair and the opponent shields. From here you input Dtilt. Dtilt because most opponents will try to commit to 1. grab 2. jab 3. smash. 1 – The crouch you input from the Dtilt means that you will most likely be lower than their grab range. Grabs also don't have super armor in Smash 4, so Dtilt has priority over grabs that can reach Greninja as well (like Pikachu's). 2 – Jab is probably the safest option for the opponent as it has high speed for most characters. This is the only really viable option for the opponent OoS against SHFF Nair. 3 – Dtilt is faster than pretty much any smash, so there is very little to no risk of being hit by a smash.

Neutral Situation: You SHFF Nair and the opponent rolls or moves away. Because of the little to no lag of Nair, you are able to shield or spotdodge any attempted counterattack and respond in turn. You can also dodge or jump away to reset the situation.

In Conclusion: I feel that SHFF Nair (-> Dtilt) is a legitimate approach option for Greninja. Mixed in with his high speed and Water Shurikens, the move becomes incredibly potent due to the mind game factor.

 

[T-block]

What characters are you playing against that can't grab you after n-air? I'm pretty sure most characters will just grab you before the d-tilt can come out... and it's not like n-air affords you much room to space with its small range.

 

[TehSharpie]

I've mostly been using SHFF Nair to punish spot dodges and acts a bonus if I catch them in early %'s due to the combo potential.

In addition, if you SH and Nair behind them then they can't shield grab out of it. Nair definitely has potential

 

[Kunai KazeKun]

Someone made a huge mistake of the Damage Output of Greninja. I tested a lot and find out the follow damage:

Just to correct you guys:

Tilts:

Fitilt does 6,5% damage
Uptilt does 4,5% damage


Nair does 11% and if the attack is longer out it does 6% damage.

Uair does 14% if all hits connect

Standard Version:
Shadow Sneak deals 10% if you attack from the front and 12% if you attack with the back kick from Greninja.

Counter is really tricky to test, you have 5 different angle to attack.

Right and Left deals 11%
Down to Up deals 14%
and diagonal kick deals 13% doesnt matter from right or left.


That are some which are incorrect. Maybe I will give you a full list next time. Just test it if i´m correct. For example use Ftilt to Uptilt it will deal 11% Damage not 10%.

So Far
Kunai KazeKun

 

[Chiroz]

Someone made a huge mistake of the Damage Output of Greninja. I tested a lot and find out the follow damage:

Just to correct you guys:

Tilts:

Fitilt does 6,5% damage
Uptilt does 4,5% damage


Nair does 11% and if the attack is longer out it does 6% damage.

Uair does 14% if all hits connect

Standard Version:
Shadow Sneak deals 10% if you attack from the front and 12% if you attack with the back kick from Greninja.

Counter is really tricky to test, you have 5 different angle to attack.

Right and Left deals 11%
Down to Up deals 14%
and diagonal kick deals 13% doesnt matter from right or left.


That are some which are incorrect. Maybe I will give you a full list next time. Just test it if i´m correct. For example use Ftilt to Uptilt it will deal 11% Damage not 10%.

So Far
Kunai KazeKun

Yea, the numbers on the thread are from the E3 demo. Greninja probably got a "balance" pass before the final build. This thread should probably be updated.