Official Mysterious Arsenal - Greninja Information & AT Thread

[NinjaLink]

Greninja's Substitue, can be used for recovering too, if used creatively.
If someone tries to gimp you with projectiles or aerials, he can substitue towards the stage.



Also Substitue can move in 8 different directions, if anyone was curious.

I shown this in the video I recall. Its actually like fox so its more than 8 angles from what I tested :D

 

[True Blue Warrior]

So how good is Greninja apparently turning out? What is his biggest strengths?

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

So how good is Greninja apparently turning out? What is his biggest strengths?

I would say, his vast ability to do surprises and feints?

 

[NinjaLink]

His ability to fulljump aerial and fast fall auto cancel his aerials. Even if you miss youll land before the opponent does. Priority 1 is get them in the air.

 

[CarterParrish]

Oh, man, that is OP. We need to come up with a name for that. Ledge denial? Hydro push?

rejekkouga-ed?

Everything about gekkouga is something I like: Sheik-esque UAir, a slide for a dash attack, a projectile that's chargeable, a counter, some moves with disjointed hitboxes, speed, great gimping/ledgeguarding, and a great air game.

And the Water Shuriken is FAST

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

Rekt-kouga'd :V

 

[CarterParrish]

Rekt-kouga'd :V

Im liking your's more. I have an excuse to say "get rek't" whenever I whoop my friends

 

[Count Bleck]

Just thought I'd pop in and post this moment

 

[Chiroz]

Just thought I'd pop in and post this moment

This is exactly what I was talking about in this post:

I killed a Robin at 50% from the top with an Up-B. Basically I grabbed into Up-Throw, Robin double jumped and I Up-Bed upwards and then downwards (pushing her upwards) and it killed her.

 

[NinjaLink]

Yea it works. I was messing with this in training mode.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Just thought I'd pop in and post this moment

Which version of UpSpec is that?

 

[Count Bleck]

This was a For Glory ranked match, so the original one.

 

[Chiroz]

Yea it works. I was messing with this in training mode.

One question about the 3rd Up-Special custom (the one that is slower but more powerful). Does it still only have a windbox or does it trade the windbox for a hurtbox?

 

[NinjaLink]

One question about the 3rd Up-Special custom (the one that is slower but more powerful). Does it still only have a windbox or does it trade the windbox for a hurtbox?

Windbox is still there. Harder to control though.

 

[Chiroz]

Windbox is still there. Harder to control though.

Some more specific questions, if you're willing to test some things out for me of course. I understand if you don't have the time to test it though.



Does it still push about the same (as the standard) or does it push more/less? Does it still deal 2% damage per pump? Can it still be directed in >=16 directions? Lastly is the push still always upwards and away, and does angling the Up-B diagonally still shoot your opponent skyrocketing into the air?

 

[NinjaLink]

Some more specific questions, if you're willing to test some things out for me of course. I understand if you don't have the time to test it though.



Does it still push about the same (as the standard) or does it push more/less? Does it still deal 2% damage per pump? Can it still be directed in >=16 directions? Lastly is the push still always upwards and away, and does angling the Up-B diagonally still shoot your opponent skyrocketing into the air?

Doesnt do damage. Less reliable to push cause the hitbox that actually pushes isnt as active. It seems to push the same directions as the default. Angles are the same as well except if you're grounded and go sideways, the bubble that pushes doesnt seem to come out.

 

[Chiroz]

Doesnt do damage. Less reliable to push cause the hitbox that actually pushes isnt as active. It seems to push the same directions as the default. Angles are the same as well except if you're grounded and go sideways, the bubble that pushes doesnt seem to come out.

Interesting. I am going to take a wild guess and say the "pushing" hitbox is only active at the very beginning of each pump and it isn't as active because it's only 2 pumps (as opposed to the standard move which throws 4 pumps, 2 per each direction).

Is there any advantages to this recovery apart from more distance? It seems like a nerfed Up-B in every aspect but range, and honestly it isn't like Greninja's Up-B needs more range.

 

[NinjaLink]

If you look closely, theres a big bubble that does the push effect. Its good for ppl who dont care for the push and wants easier recovery. As for versatility, Default is best.

 

[Chiroz]

If you look closely, theres a big bubble that does the push effect. Its good for ppl who dont care for the push and wants easier recovery. As for versatility, Default is best.

If I may ask, what's your preferred counter as of now? It seems to me like Counter 1 and 3 are basically useless since any decent opponent can just shield it (if not punish it), even though Counter 3 breaks about 60% of the shield it isn't really worth committing to as the counter itself has such a tight timing and is hard to pull off. Counter 2 seems like it could have some use but I don't know yet.

 

[NinjaLink]

If I may ask, what's your preferred counter as of now? It seems to me like Counter 1 and 3 are basically useless since any decent opponent can just shield it (if not punish it), even though Counter 3 breaks about 60% of the shield it isn't really worth committing to as the counter itself has such a tight timing and is hard to pull off. Counter 2 seems like it could have some use but I don't know yet.

I thought the explosion was the only viable option but after finding out about the direction thing, my opinion changed. counter 3 has more counter frames than the default one, similar to marths counter frames. Its pretty large. default is impossible to punish at certain angles. Counter 3 is slightly more but thats only if they block but of course they lost over half of their shield. Its good against defensive players who decides to attack.

 

[Chiroz]

I thought the explosion was the only viable option but after finding out about the direction thing, my opinion changed. counter 3 has more counter frames than the default one, similar to marths counter frames. Its pretty large.

Oh, I didn't know Counter 3 has a wider window.

The problem I found with Counter (even though I didn't use customs as I was on a friend's 3DS and he hasn't unlocked any customs) is that no matter how unpredictable you are, it's so slow that your opponent can just shield it. It's easier to hit in the air since people will air dodge WAY before the hit (because its so slow) but I have a feeling that once people get used to Greninja's counter speed then they will start air dodging correctly too.

Basically this makes counter almost useless as an attack at least. You can still use it for recoveries and/or to gain stage control, but it's purpose as a counter is basically gone, it's more of an "avoidance". At least that's what I got from my 3 days of testing.

 

[NinjaLink]

Default is a free approach from any angle and has very little cooldown. If they were to airdodge and they are anywhere near the floor, depending on your angle to can punish. Even not being near the floor, if you were to go left/right it goes fast, but if you use diagonals you can have a meaty hitbox on them which should catch them airdodging or put you in a position to followup. Also from what I just tested, the counter tracks the initial position of the player who initiated the your counter, regardless of where they are. So If they throw a projectile and you counter, it'll track the person where they are once you do a successful sub, regardless if it was a physical hit or not.

 

[Chiroz]

Default is a free approach from any angle and has very little cooldown. If they were to airdodge and they are anywhere near the floor, depending on your angle to can punish. Even not being near the floor, if you were to go left/right it goes fast, but if you use diagonals you can have a meaty hitbox on them which should catch them airdodging or put you in a position to followup. Also from what I just tested, the counter tracks the initial position of the player who initiated the your counter, regardless of where they are. So If they throw a projectile and you counter, it'll track the person where they are once you do a successful sub, regardless if it was a physical hit or not.

But it isn't really a free approach because (if they are on the ground) they can just shield and they'll be able to drop their shield before you are out of end lag. Sure, they probably won't have time to punish you, but you aren't going to get a hit on them if they just shield.

I mean I fought against people who didn't even know Greninja HAD a counter and they were able to shield when I countered them because "it looked similar to Lucario's". This means they had enough time to see my counter, realize that the move was a counter and still react and shield to it before Greninja could reach them. It felt like any decent opponent will just shield every time you counter.

Note that I didn't test counter that much so I might not have as much information as you do. I think I was able to get around 7 counters in my 3 days of playing, mostly because I wasn't trying to land it at all because of how bad it seemed.

 

[MM720]

IDK if this is necessary, but here's the Greninja section of a SSB4 Guidebook (that also confirms the name of his Final Smash):

 

[Chiroz]

IDK if this is necessary, but here's the Greninja section of a SSB4 Guidebook (that also confirms the name of his Final Smash):

Secret Ninja Attack? Seriously?

 

[Spirst]

Secret Ninja Attack? Seriously?

Can't get any cornier than that. Mysterious Ninja/Night Slash were much better names.

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

I like Counter 1 for it's directional ability. It also works great for recovery.

Can't get any cornier than that. Mysterious Ninja/Night Slash were much better names.

Not so secret anymore, that technique eh? :V

 

[NinjaLink]

Hydro Pump should have honestly been called Aqua Jet.

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

Hydro Pump the strongest water move. Capable of penetrating steel.

In Smash, it pushes people away and deals chip damages.


Sakurai ur logik wird.

 

[Spirst]

Hydro Pump should have honestly been called Aqua Jet.

Yeah, though Greninja can't learn Aqua Jet. Unless they have some kind of weird promotion, "CONNECT YOUR GRENINJA AMIIBO TO POKEMON X OR Y AND RECEIVE THE AQUA JET MOVE FOR YOUR GRENINJA!"

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

Anyone else keep mistakenly using Shadow SNeak instead of Hydro Pump when recovering? :V

 

[Sosuke]

i think that's just a 3ds problem

 

[Chiroz]

Anyone else keep mistakenly using Shadow SNeak instead of Hydro Pump when recovering? :V

Yep, mostly 3DS problems. Happens to me a lot. It happens to ZeRo so much that he doesn't use Greninja, ever, just because he SDs all the time.

 

[momochuu]

i've seen that happen so often that i thought people were doing it on purpose lol.

i really hope the 3DS doesn't hinder controls so badly to the point where you can barely do B moves in the long run.

 

[Chiroz]

i've seen that happen so often that i thought people were doing it on purpose lol.

i really hope the 3DS doesn't hinder controls so badly to the point where you can barely do B moves in the long run.

You get used to it after a bit. The problem is the circle pad is sort of slippery of small or I don't know. When you try doing diagonal inputs at time you think it will read like a "Up-B to the right" and it reads as a "Side-B upwards". (This is why you will never see it happen to characters like Marth, Mario, Link, Megaman, etc. But it will happen a lot to characters like Greninja or Pikachu).

 

[OnFullTilt]

Anyone else keep mistakenly using Shadow Sneak instead of Hydro Pump when recovering? :V

Actually if I recall correctly that's how the term "BNF" was coined on Shofu's stream. Basically it's when you accidentally side B when trying to do an unusual up B, and Greninja's was the one that started it all. The term is becoming popular enough that I believe it's spreading even outside of Shofu's stream. What does BNF stand for? Well... uh...

 

[Sosuke]

not very relevant, but turning around after a shield roll forward and rolling again in the same direction is way better than just using the back roll

 

[Das Koopa]

Yep, been getting a million SDs. Had a huge loss streak due in part to it.

I'm liking spamming shurikens at the starts of the game then going up smash when they approach you. Works against a decent chunk of the cast and sets up for aerials nice and quick, though I've been having problems landing forward/back airs. Up air and down air are easy to connect and really good - just wish dair was a spike.

 

[Chiroz]

Yep, been getting a million SDs. Had a huge loss streak due in part to it.

I'm liking spamming shurikens at the starts of the game then going up smash when they approach you. Works against a decent chunk of the cast and sets up for aerials nice and quick, though I've been having problems landing forward/back airs. Up air and down air are easy to connect and really good - just wish dair was a spike.

D-Air is a spike in the first like quarter of a second of the attack.

 

[Das Koopa]

D-Air is a spike in the first like quarter of a second of the attack.

Ah, that's really useful. Will need to time it right. Reminds me a lot of Wario's spike in Project M (which I SD off of all the time lol)