Official Mysterious Arsenal - Greninja Information & AT Thread

[momochuu]

yeah i'm SDing like hell right now but i'll get over it. my hydro pump antics kinda suck too. :<

 

[Sosuke]

im ready for the Wii U buff to Greninja that makes his recovery work every time

 

[Spirst]

I swear, attempting to hydropump gimp on the 3DS is so frustrating. Either I miss it or I do a shadow sneak instead.

 

[Chiroz]

I swear, attempting to hydropump gimp on the 3DS is so frustrating. Either I miss it or I do a shadow sneak instead.

You'll get used to it. I had the same problem the first times I played but now I am gimping left and right, seriously.



- Still I can't wait for an actual controller with a secondary stick. Being able to control his Up-B and Side-B properly plus also being able to do retreating F-Airs and Back-Airs is going to be huge for Greninja's spacing and approach game.

 

[Chiroz]

By the way, does anyone else have Greninja's "strong" counter? I am testing in practice mode and it doesn't seem to be even slightly stronger. I kill Bowser from the middle of Omega at exactly the same % with regular counter and with strong counter (Edit: Also tested on Mario and Jigglypuff, same %s for all of them). I tested horizontal, vertical and diagonal, all knockbacks are exactly the same.

What's the point of this custom? A counter with a wider counter window but shorter attack range and huge delay (that hits harder on shield)? If that's it then it's incredibly bad.




I actually found a use for the single-pump pulse Hydro Pump, it's actually veeeery good. It's even better than regular Up-B against characters like Link and Little Mac with very predictable recoveries. The reason being that the whole water pillar is a hitbox and it does actual knockback, not only that but the knock is ALWAYS in the direction Greninja is facing. This means that you can go outside, drop a little below the edge and then Up-B to create a literal wall of knockback away from the stage that your opponent can't cross for a full second.



Up-B 2 and Regular Up-B share the exact same properties in pushing. I've tested for the last 40 minutes and in every example I could think of they had the same reaction. It seems the difference is just that Up-B 2 is slower but has more range, it also deals no damage (default deals 2% but this is hardly noticeable).

It's good to note that even the size of the wind box seems to be the exact same. At first I was missing all my Up-B's and never pushing anyone when I switched to Up-B 2 because I was aiming the "graphical" representation towards my opponent. Then I started aiming it like if it was default Up-B and all of the sudden I was hitting every push, didn't miss one. So it seems its the same windbox size.

Basically I would never recommend Up-B 2, the extra range is kind of nice, but honestly Greninja doesn't need it. Since the properties are the exactly the same it's basically a question of: can I sacrifice speed for a little extra distance. The Up-B being slower is much more of a problem than lacking that little range. It will make your recoveries much more predictable and easier to catch even when unpredicted, also it will make gimping harder as it's going to be slower and the opponent will have more time to react (plus you won't be able to get some "clutch" gimps with slower speed).

 

[Eji1700]

So i'm not totally certain how to get the second one to come out, but it seems shadow sneak has two attacks. The normal backflip for 10%, and a backwards kick for 12% and what seems like more knockback. I feel it's kinda like when you flip a falcon/warlock punch, but i've had some issue reproducing in match. Either way, something people might want to know.

 

[Chiroz]

So i'm not totally certain how to get the second one to come out, but it seems shadow sneak has two attacks. The normal backflip for 10%, and a backwards kick for 12% and what seems like more knockback. I feel it's kinda like when you flip a falcon/warlock punch, but i've had some issue reproducing in match. Either way, something people might want to know.

Just press back after Greninja has already disappeared.



Also there's a way to aim the kick forward. (Or do the flip backwards) Do Shadow Sneak, release the B button and instantly press back just as Greninja is disappearing, then press forward once Greninja is reappearing.

If done right will kick forward instead of backwards. This move has about 20-25% more knockback.


If you want to perform the flip backwards then don't press forward again on the previous input.




I just made an awesome discovery about Neutral B btw. I'll post it in a bit.

 

[UnicornDemon]

Does anyone else find Greninja's up tilt to be underwhelming? That one move seems to be the weakest in his arsenal, although maybe I just haven't gotten it down yet.

 

[TTYK]

Anyone else keep mistakenly using Shadow SNeak instead of Hydro Pump when recovering? :V

Shofu calls it: B****, ***** fingers.

 

[momochuu]

yeah greninja's up tilt is like his only bad normal.

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

Does anyone else find Greninja's up tilt to be underwhelming? That one move seems to be the weakest in his arsenal, although maybe I just haven't gotten it down yet.

Well, U-Tilt can net you a aerial follow up, I guess, but only at a specified %. :V

 

[CHOMPY]

Depending on where the opponent DI's, you can do a bair. However, if they are directly above Greninja, you can follow that up with a Uair.

The best part of the Utilt is it comes really quick as an OoS option, then like T-skjorte Ninja said, you can follow it up with either bair or uair

 

[Sosuke]

the problem with Utilt is that it doesn't serve much of a purpose since Usmash exists imo

 

[CHOMPY]

Another thing I like to do on a lot of players at early percentage is uthrow to usmash. If you anticipate that your opponent will jump out of a uthrow, then follow it up with a uair. Patience is the key to virtue and the reward pays off beautifully.

the problem with Utilt is that it doesn't serve much of a purpose since Usmash exists imo

It comes out quicker. Sure it may not have as much range and damage, but the fact that the hitstun along with barely any knock back is so good at early percentage you can do a lot of crazy antics with Greninja.

 

[UnicornDemon]

Hmm... Greninja feels really good. His smash attacks come out very fast and are potent kill moves (particularly the up smash). His sliding dash attack is really good for punishing just about everything. He has a great projectile. His edgeguarding game seems to have a bright future ahead of him with hydro pump. I'm really excited for my pokebro. Greninja is probably my favorite Pokemon (the only other one who competes is Bulbasuar), and I am very happy with what I've seen of him thus far.

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

I don't feel like his smashes comes out fast enough to punish anyone, though. It's horrendeously difficult to kill with him if I don't do a Hydro Pump or manage to land a Shadow Sneak at high %.

 

[Funkermonster]

Best way to approach? Besides tossing a shuriken and then running after it.

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

Best way to approach? Besides tossing a shuriken and then running after it.

Try approaching with a short-hop FAir or reversed BAir, then a Shadow Sneak for surprise attack?

 

[Spirst]

I don't feel like his smashes comes out fast enough to punish anyone, though. It's horrendeously difficult to kill with him if I don't do a Hydro Pump or manage to land a Shadow Sneak at high %.

A sweetspot u-smash works wonders if you can flip them up with a hydro pump.

 

[momochuu]

fsmash is pretty fast and has good range and KO power.

Best way to approach? Besides tossing a shuriken and then running after it.

running short hopped fast falling NAir is good for approaching. it even kills some projectiles.

 

[Shog]

Sorry if already known, but a Taunt(the¯\_(ツ)_/¯from Greninja) has knockback and does 2% damage. You can use it while shadow sneaking, comboing into it. Well. Kinda. Eh atleast you have it as an option.

 

[Spirst]

Sorry if already known, but a Taunt(the¯\_(ツ)_/¯from Greninja) has knockback and does 2% damage. You can use it while shadow sneaking, comboing into it. Well. Kinda. Eh atleast you have it as an option.

Does it kill at 300%? If so, best way to end a sudden death.

 

[Shog]

It kills Robin at 600% Otherwise that would be an awesome kill move. So the only use for the taunt is shadow sneak combo. BUT who uses a taunt for combos anyways?

 

[Sosuke]

It comes out quicker

i actually don't really think it does x:

the¯\_(ツ)_/¯from Greninja

lol i'm trying so hard right now to make that my down taunt online right now

http://puu.sh/bZXmD.jpg

this is the closest i got, if anyone has a better way please let me know

freaking \ is on the keyboard, but it's grayed out and doesn't let you use it

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

I don't understand how you can combo that taunt. You can use a taunt during Shadow Sneak, sure, but that's it? The water sport kind of takes a long time to activate.

 

[CHOMPY]

Lately, I've been using the nair to jab for safe approach. So far, its been working wonders for me when your trying to combo someone at early percentage (I'm not positive on what the highest it will work up to), but the fact that Nair comes out so quickly. The only thing about it is nair barely has any range, but if you manage to hit them, you can follow up with either a grab or a jab.

 

[T-block]

Are you fighting characters with slow grabs? I get shield grabbed all the time when I approach with n-air.

 

[Sosuke]

i only approach with nair once in a blue moon tbh, it's not very safe

 

[CHOMPY]

There are times I do get shield grabbed. No aerial you make is going to be safe whenever your opponent puts up their shield. The only way to avoid gettting grabbed is to probably nair them when they're facing the opposite direction, so you have no way of getting shield grabbed. For example, if you anticipate your opponent is going to put up your shield, do your best to land behind them when you FFNair, and then do a turnaround grab. If not, then just do the bread and butter combo with a simple FFNair and jab combo.

 

[Chiroz]

There are times I do get shield grabbed. No aerial you make is going to be safe whenever your opponent puts up their shield. The only way to avoid gettting grabbed is to probably nair them when they're facing the opposite direction, so you have no way of getting shield grabbed. For example, if you anticipate your opponent is going to put up your shield, do your best to land behind them when you FFNair, and then do a turnaround grab. If not, then just do the bread and butter combo with a simple FFNair and jab combo.

N-Air will get shield grabbed most of the time. Both F-Air and B-Air are safe from shield grab if spaced correctly. F-Air lags too much though and will probably get punished anyways. B-Air is a very safe aerial, if only the 3DS allowed you to space things properly :'(.

 

[momochuu]

i've never payed any attention to it, but is BAir lagless on landing?

 

[TTYK]

i've never payed any attention to it, but is BAir lagless on landing?

not sure lo.

 

[Chiroz]

i've never payed any attention to it, but is BAir lagless on landing?

Basically.

 

[Sosuke]

isn't it around the same as Nair though

 

[Chiroz]

isn't it around the same as Nair though

Yes, but you can't space N-Air like you can B-Air. N-Air has very little lag too.




According to my record. 55% of my kills are smashes, 20% are aerials and 25% are specials (Throws are sub 1% and I have never spiked anyone with Down Aerial). That means almost 1/4th of my kills are done with Up-B gimping (I say almost because there must be at least 1-2% of those kills which is done with Shadow Sneak). Up-B is so OP.

 

[TTYK]

Oh i just got wrecked by some guy with Megaman, I couldn't approach because he was spamming all of his projectiles. I wish I was more comfortable in the air...

 

[momochuu]

just confirmed for myself that up throw into up air is a true combo if you jump fast enough. nifty.

 

[Chiroz]

just confirmed for myself that up throw into up air is a true combo if you jump fast enough. nifty.

It is after a certain % (Because Greninja short hops too high). Before that certain % up-throw into up-smash is a true combo though :3.

 

[momochuu]

at what percent are they true combos?

 

[Sosuke]

probably like 20% right?

below that i usually usmash or utilt