My thoughts on Evo2k8

[Harbinger631]

So essentially knowing your character perfectly (in terms of spacing, lag time, combos, recovery) is less important then being able to hit the smash ball twice (RoB hit it twice at max in the ken vs CPU vids) and hit B?

Im sorry but i highly disagree with that.

I think it's true. It's the reason I hate playing with smashballs.

 

[Harbinger631]

But Smash Balls are part of a selection of random item spawns, right? If a Smash Ball never appeared, this "skill at getting the Smash Ball" would never apply; is that lack of skill, or is it bad luck that the Smash Ball never spawned, when you spent time practicing to get it if it does spawn? How is reliance on the random spawn of a certain item out of many a measure of skill?

You know it'll eventually come. It's like if you're D3, and someone's camping, you just keep doing your over-b waiting for a Gordo. You don't know when it'll come, but you do know it'll come.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Harbinger631, please stop double posting. Just edit your last post.

It is perfectly fair to argue that CPU was superior over Ken at that particular "game" (items on, etc.), but SRK continues to ignore the fact that the community at large prefers another kind of smash! Why is this so hard to accept? Most (but not all) forms of randomness are detrimental to the game when making it more competitive.

 

[Harbinger631]

Sorry, I'm used to GameFAQs and am not familiar with posting controls. Can I delete a post?

 

[ubersaurus]

Harbinger631, please stop double posting. Just edit your last post.

It is perfectly fair to argue that CPU was superior over Ken at that particular "game" (items on, etc.), but SRK continues to ignore the fact that the community at large prefers another kind of smash! Why is this so hard to accept? Most (but not all) forms of randomness are detrimental to the game when making it more competitive.

Perhaps you missed Ponder's post on the previous page?

 

[Kel]

Can I do the commentary for MVC and Street fighter next year? I have no clue what's going on in either of these games in a competitive sense, but I enjoy screaming at stuff that looks cool.

One of EVO's arguments is that they don't want to deviate from how the game was meant to be played- so they kept items on. How can you make a sound decision to use items with that logic, but then find only banning certain items feasible? You can't say "this item is good in my eyes, but this one isn't". It's all or nothing to me.

 

[Ponder]

Can I do the commentary for MVC and Street fighter next year?

No.

One of EVO's arguments is that they don't want to deviate from how the game was meant to be played- so they kept items on. How can you make a sound decision to use items with that logic, but then find only banning certain items feasible? You can't say "this item is good in my eyes, but this one isn't". It's all or nothing to me.

I'm really trying to get beyond this. Please read this post: http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5139154&postcount=114

Thanks.

 

[AfroQT]

I'd attend Evo 2k9 definitely if they fixed the ruleset.
I dont have any less respect for Evo after this year, they wanted to try their own thing, thats call in my eyes.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Sorry, I'm used to GameFAQs and am not familiar with posting controls. Can I delete a post?

vBulletin is capable of letting users do that, but SWF here doesn't allow it. (short answer = no)

 

[BearsAreScary]

My thoughts on Evo 2k8: who the heck is everyone that won lolz

 

[theONEjanitor]

1st match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWWfOD9Cupw&feature=PlayList&p=7A6CAEC28C945DDC&index=0

Ken: b-air edgeguard 164%
CPU: u-throw 180% after missing a few kill opps
Ken: up-b out of shield 132%
CPU: nair 232% (damage built primarily with final smash)
Ken: up-b 133%

other notes: ROB missed many many opportunities to kill Marth. All of his kills are at incredibly high damages
@ 3:17 ROB activated his final smash in the middle of marth's combo, which results in Marth taking over 120% damage.
Many times, Marth unsuccesfully tries to attack ROB during his final smash, so he has to resort to running away for the duration of the attack.
@ 4:08 Marth's final smash is dodged.

Conclusions:
1. CPU was outplayed in this match, he missed opportunitys for easy kills, and played very one-dimensionally, rarely even attempting kill moves. Both of his kills were at particularly high damage. I would assume from this match that Ken is clearly the better player.



2nd Match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlU6hcmeXYQ&feature=PlayList&p=7A6CAEC28C945DDC&index=1



Ken: b-air 80%
CPU: 108% Ken dies after being knocked off the stage (with a random f-smash that most likely would have been punished if the hammer weren't there) while holding a Hammer
Ken: 52% Ken activates his final smash and makes up for the lame death earlier
CPU: 57% But it doesn't matter, because he is Skyworld'd a few moments later
CPU: 90% CPU gets a smashball, and there is little marth can do to delay in the inevitable.

Other notes:
1. @ 0:05: marth has a good opening for a f-smash, but the stage hitboxes interrupt the attack giving ROB time to spot dodge and counterattack.

2. CPU didn't really have to do much in terms of tacticaly play to win this match, he really just downsmashed a lot and let items and skyworld do the rest. Ken pull off his final smash once but he couldn't overcome the disadvantage.


3rd match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFcnnPtUhGw&feature=PlayList&p=7A6CAEC28C945DDC&index=2

CPU: 74% ROB picks up a smash ball. The rest is hitory.
CPU: 77% ROB kills marth with a bumper.
Ken: 96% Ken up-bs after a poorly spaced fair from CPU
Ken: 109% CPU foolishly throws a superscope at Ken, Ken picks it up and charges it a little before killing CPU with it
CPU: Ken makes a crucical mistake causing him to be edgeguarded.

other notes:
1. The match is basically even, until ROB gets a smash ball, which gives him a stock. Since he still has the smash ball activated even after Marth's invincibility has expired, the necessary momentum-reset after a stock is nullified, and rob still has the momentum to quickly take another stock (which he was able to do at low damage, because he used an item). Once the momentum is reset, Ken easily takes a stock due a mistake by CPU.

2. @ 1:58 Ken misses his easily dodged final smash once again.
---------------
Total kills:
Ken: bair, up-b, up-b, bair, smashball, up-b, superscope
CPU: up-throw, nair (damage built with smashball), hammer SD, Skworld stage spike, smashball, smashball, bumper, SD

WINNER: CPU


NOTES

1. Ken clearly was the better player overall. He spaced his attacks better and made lot of predictions on the one-dimensional CPU. Ken mixed up his attacks and paid attention to move decay. CPU's main strategy consisted of spot-dodging a lot and down smash/d-tilt. He rarely attempted any kind of edgeguarding, and he rarely attempted any killing moves. CPU made many more tactical errors than Ken.

2. All of CPU's kils except 2 (count them, 2 out of 8) involved an item or a stage).

3. Items other than the smashball, with the exception of the super scope, the hammer, and the bumper; didn't seem to affect the match other than the just get in the way.

4. Marth's final smash is much much harder to connect with than ROB's.

5. Finals smashes can be activated in situations where no other attacks could normally be performed, such as during "combos".


CONCLUSIONS

1. Items, and Smashballs ESPECIALLY, give the worse player an advantage, in this case, it gave CPU the overall win and the first place prize.

2. It's fairly evident that with the absense of items and smashballs (and Skyworld) Ken would have won this match.

3. Skyworld is not a suitable stage for competitive play. Marth lost his match in part because he was gimped by the stage.

 

[theONEjanitor]

1. Yes

2. Yes

3. Yes. With smashballs being on, a HUGE part of the game, much, much more important than being able to string together hits, space, approach, etc, is getting the smashball. CPU was far superior at that than Ken, and thus was better at the game they were playing.

AND you honestly think this makes for a fair, competitively viable game set up?

To be honest, considering your explanations, there is no way you can answer "yes" to this question.

ANYONE can sit around and hit the smashball and press b. which means ANYONE can win a tournament under this ruleset. Which means, this RULESET IS NOT COMPETITIVE.

and he's wasn't "far superior" to Ken. the smashballs were "far superior" at spawning and bouncing to locations convenient for CPU.

 

[Harbinger631]

AND you honestly think this makes for a fair, competitively viable game set up?

Somewhat. It's just a lot less interesting in my opinion, because in order to be better than your opponent, you mostly need to be able to grab the smashball consistently more, like what CPU did to Ken. Top tier characters are also very important, maybe critical with this, as ROB would be top tier, and Marth being probably high to mid tier.

Even though smashballs appeared randomly, with every smashball appearance that I saw in the EVO matches, both players had an opportunity to grab it, so luck isn't that big of an issue. Still, to balance it, I would increase the stock from 3 to 5.

 

[theONEjanitor]

Somewhat. It's just a lot less interesting in my opinion, because in order to be better than your opponent, you mostly need to be able to grab the smashball consistently more, like what CPU did to Ken. Top tier characters are also very important, maybe critical with this, as ROB would be top tier, and Marth being probably high to mid tier.

Even though smashballs appeared randomly, with every smashball appearance that I saw in the EVO matches, both players had an opportunity to grab it, so luck isn't that big of an issue. Still, to balance it, I would increase the stock from 3 to 5.

Both players do not have an opportunity. In fact in most scenarios only one person has an opportunity. Just because Marth hit the smashball once, doesn't mean he had an opportunity to get it. In most situations the smashballs randomly bounced or spawned to places convenient to CPU. He did nothing that Ken didn't do in terms of trying to get smash balls, except let them be randomly knocked right above his head.

increasing the stock from 3 to 5 would make the tournament last like three days.

 

[Harbinger631]

Both players do not have an opportunity. In fact in most scenarios only one person has an opportunity. Just because Marth hit the smashball once, doesn't mean he had an opportunity to get it. In most situations the smashballs randomly bounced or spawned to places convenient to CPU. He did nothing that Ken didn't do in terms of trying to get smash balls, except let them be randomly knocked right above his head.

increasing the stock from 3 to 5 would make the tournament last like three days.

Match 1: Smashball 2:09- Spawns closest to Ken. Ken and ROB fight while SB flies high to the right. ROB manages to throw Ken, clearing his way to the smash ball. (Ken's fault for getting grabbed)

Smashball 3:08- Spawns equal distance from Ken and ROB. Ken KOs ROB and has 3 seconds to grab smashball. Smashball floats high, making it difficult for Ken to reach. ROB spawns, does dsmash in invincibilty. Ken fails to shield and gets knocked away. ROB grabs smashball. (Ken's fault for failing to dodge dsmash, and for choosing a character who has trouble reaching high places, as opposed to Wario, Pit, or ROB. Marth could be low tier in smashball matches)

Smashball 4:01- Spawns closer to Ken. ROB knocks Ken away and fsmashes ball. Fsmash sends the ball to Ken, who breaks it with nair.


As you can see, both players had an opportunity to grab all 3 smashballs in the first match. I could do the next matches if you wanted.

As for 5 stock matches lasting too long, the average match time of the Evo2kvideos was 2:42, meaning the average stock length was 54 seconds, meaning average length of a 5 stock match would be 4:30, which sounds close to the time most tournament matches last with SBR rules, doesn't it?

 

[AfroQT]

It doesnt even matter because marth has a crappy Final smash while Rob's is ridiculously good.
Im pretty sure RoB can break the ball faster then Marth can as well.

Still final smashes tilt the game so much in one persons favor i dont see why it should be on as opposed to 2 people fighting with no items, with nothing except the players.

 

[Beeble]

I somewhat understand that with SRKs roots in arcades, where rules are given to you and you play that particular game, that they would want games to stay as close as possible to their original incarnations.

My question is, what is the SRK/EVO stance on random elements in games? Out of the games at EVO2K8, which had random elements besides brawl?

The closest thing I can think of is Faust's item toss, but GGAC was dropped which means, to the best of my knowledge (and I am originally an SRKer), EVO has no previous background on random elements (save the one previously mentioned).

Also, what was wrong with the ruleset from evo last year? While brawl/melee are different games, they are the same series with the same fundamentals. Shouldn't evo have been looking to recreate the turnout and hype of 2007, rather than create a different experience? The rules from each GG or Tekken incarnation have not changed this dramatically from year to year, and neither has been the #2 attended game of the tournament.

 

[Harbinger631]

I think so too, but I wonder what the tier list would be with smashballs (and I don't think Sonic would be automatically top, because getting the smashball is much more important than the FS itself, and there are characters much, much better at camping for a SB and then getting it.)

 

[Dastrn]

So, I am interested. It's been said many times. yourself included, that "we know for a fact it is non-competitive." I wonder, how was this determined? I've not heard a single thing about any items being used in tournaments. I know why they were ALL disabled in Melee (explodey stuff), and I'll agree with the reasoning there. But the same thinking doesn't really apply to Brawl.

There's some commentary that "top players determined this in the back room," but I want to know their methodology. How did they test this? Did they run their own private tournaments with items, and then cut out the ones they found overpowering, until they reached a total of zero? Or did they just pull them at the get go because they were so used to no items in melee, they didn't want to go through the trouble of testing these things in Brawl?

I think if the SRK people know exactly WHY the SB folks are against it other than the excuses of "it's random" and "it evens the playing field," both of which are not, by themselves, strong enough arguments, a consensus would be easier to reach.

Here's the thing: We made all of that available to Mr. Wizard a few months ago. We don't know who you are and we don't need to justify ourselves to random people. The right people had the right information in time to do something good with it, and they refused.

I don't think a consensus can be reached. Honestly, the SRK people should stop trying to convince the SWF people of the merits of items. They do not like them in a tournament setting and you will not convince them otherwise. They have been moving away from items for years and are not just going to turn around and go back because you say so. Continuing to argue will just create more ill-feelings on both sides which doesn't benefit either community.

The only open question in my mind is where to go from here with respect to Evo. We have a mountain of evidence that there is no room in the Brawl community for an items-format tournament sub-community. With that in mind, I'm interested in learning more about the Smash tournament scene at a national/international level to try to figure out where we fit in, if at all. I've played Smash for years (see registration date), but never competitively. I'd appreciate anything you could tell me about long-running tournament series for Smash, big upcoming tournaments for '09, or anything you think is relevant. I'd also like to hear if people would attend a no-item, 3 Stock, 7-minute, etc. tournament in Evo '09 Vegas tournament.

Feel free to reply to this thread or e-mail me directly at tony.cannon@gmail.com. Thanks.

We should chat on gmail. I'll add you to my contacts.

 

[theONEjanitor]

srry double post

 

[theONEjanitor]

Match 1: Smashball 2:09- Spawns closest to Ken. Ken and ROB fight while SB flies high to the right. ROB manages to throw Ken, clearing his way to the smash ball. (Ken's fault for getting grabbed)

LMFAO, ken's fault for getting grabbed right as the smashball RANDOMLY decided to float near ROB. Ken had no chance at getting this smash ball at any point. because of the randomly places it spawned and floated. He was in a shield while it spawn, and then he was attacked out of position. He had an opportunity to hit it once, which wouldn't have busted it.

Smashball 3:08- Spawns equal distance from Ken and ROB. Ken KOs ROB and has 3 seconds to grab smashball. Smashball floats high, making it difficult for Ken to reach. ROB spawns, does dsmash in invincibilty. Ken fails to shield and gets knocked away. ROB grabs smashball. (Ken's fault for failing to dodge dsmash, and for choosing a character who has trouble reaching high places, as opposed to Wario, Pit, or ROB. Marth could be low tier in smashball matches)

Again, Ken had NO chance of getting this smash ball. Rob's d-smash is INCREDIBLY hard to dodge. It's not Ken's "fault for failing to dodge" that's aboslutely ludicrous. I have no idea why Ken got hit by the downsmash, but LOL @ you compeltely ignoring the fact that the smashball's randomness is playing a HUGE role in who gets it. Jesus christ. It's the smashball's fault for RANDOMLY floating to places where Ken can't get it.

Smashball 4:01- Spawns closer to Ken. ROB knocks Ken away and fsmashes ball. Fsmash sends the ball to Ken, who breaks it with nair.

Ken finally gets lucky, like CPU did the previous two times.

As you can see, both players had an opportunity to grab all 3 smashballs in the first match. I could do the next matches if you wanted.

I don't think you should because I think we're watching different matches lol

As for 5 stock matches lasting too long, the average match time of the Evo2kvideos was 2:42, meaning the average stock length was 54 seconds, meaning average length of a 5 stock match would be 4:30, which sounds close to the time most tournament matches last with SBR rules, doesn't it?

Well actually you might be right, i'm used to playing without smashball insta kills.

 

[theONEjanitor]

I somewhat understand that with SRKs roots in arcades, where rules are given to you and you play that particular game, that they would want games to stay as close as possible to their original incarnations.

My question is, what is the SRK/EVO stance on random elements in games. Out of the games at EVO2K8, which had random elements besides brawl?

The closest thing I can think of is Faust's item toss, but GGAC was dropped which means, to the best of my knowledge (and I am originally an SRKer), EVO has no previous background on random elements (save the one previously mentioned).

Also, what was wrong with the ruleset from evo last year? While brawl/melee are different games, they are the same series with the same fundamentals. Shouldn't evo have been looking to recreate the turnout and hype of 2007, rather than create a different experience? The rules from each GG or Tekken incarnation have not changed this dramatically from year to year, and neither has been the #2 attended game of the tournament.

SRK hated Melee, they didn't have any top Melee players within their ranks. Even though Smashers came to Evo and were completely civil and not to mention provided arguably the most entertaining event at the whole thing. Brawl came out and they wanted to usurp the game as their own based on years of anamosity against the Smash community. So they created a tourney ruleset specifically different from the ones the Smash community holds to "prove" that they were right about the Smash community all along and to further separate themselves. If we played with items, their tournament would have been items off, period. They'll of course deny it, but there are members of the srk community who feel this is the truth as well.
There's absolutely no other logical reason why they would completely ignore the views and ideas of hundreds of people who know more about competitive smash than they do. Like, they didn't take ANYTHING whatsoever into account. A small group of SRK people decided that they knew more about Smash than hundreds (or maybe thousands) of people who have been Smashing for decades, including people who have remained civil and reasonable with them over the years, such as Alpha Zealot, PC Chris, and others.

 

[BigRick]

Like, they didn't take ANYTHING whatsoever into account.

counterpick system anyone?

 

[Kel]

I'm really trying to get beyond this. Please read this post: http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5139154&postcount=114

Thanks.

I'm really not trying to argue. I'm just asking for the logic behind deeming some items unsuitable for competitive play while others aren't, when any items are being used at all.

No arguing, just asking. Sorry if I came off hostile.

 

[jchensor]

SRK hated Melee, they didn't have any top Melee players within their ranks. Even though Smashers came to Evo and were completely civil and not to mention provided arguably the most entertaining event at the whole thing. Brawl came out and they wanted to usurp the game as their own based on years of anamosity against the Smash community. So they created a tourney ruleset specifically different from the ones the Smash community holds to "prove" that they were right about the Smash community all along and to further separate themselves. If we played with items, their tournament would have been items off, period. They'll of course deny it, but there are members of the srk community who feel this is the truth as well.
There's absolutely no other logical reason why they would completely ignore the views and ideas of hundreds of people who know more about competitive smash than they do. Like, they didn't take ANYTHING whatsoever into account. A small group of SRK people decided that they knew more about Smash than hundreds (or maybe thousands) of people who have been Smashing for decades, including people who have remained civil and reasonable with them over the years, such as Alpha Zealot, PC Chris, and others.

Dude, didn't I tell you to stop this sh*t?!? Who says SRK hates Melee? If we did, why the hell did we add it last year in the first place? And THEN bring back Brawl this year? We LOVED Melee from last year and were very happy with it. And we've already told you WHY we chose items: because our community is not used to banning things immediately, only things that are completely obviously broken. Since Brawl was new and nobody knows FOR SURE that items are broken, we felt like we wanted to test it out. The game isn't even a year old. How could you know 100% for sure items were unfair? Trust me, if you guys played with items on, we would have ran our tournament exactly the same way. Stop trying to think we're trying to stick it to the Smash Community.

Look, your post analysing the matches was a good post. Stick to that sort of constructive thing, please. Stop this relentless stupidity of claiming you know what the heads of Evo are thinking and claiming that we are some biased group of people plotting to SPECIFICALLY include AN ENTIRE GAME into our 6-game lineup, wasting our time running AN ENTIRE TOURNAMENT for the sole purpose of pissing off the SMASH COMMUNITY. Yes, that's really what we want to do. How logical is that?

- James

 

[clowsui]

Just because it is a new game, it doesn't mean that the mechanics have changed to an incredible degree.

The logic is similar to something like Halo 2 and Halo 3 - although weapons have slightly different properties in both games and you use different techniques in both games, the fundamental structure is the same. For example, BR in both games is still the predominant weapon.

With Melee and Brawl, items have not changed to a degree where they are any less random, unbalanced and uncompetitive. Do we need to test this? If so, then why?

 

[<π]

I hate this "You can't have a competitive game with random argument." It is just flat out wrong random has been injected into smash games since melee, that is fact. It has been made even more promident in brawl. Many characters have attacks with flat out random effects, just about every character can not randomly initiate a trip with some given move. But since we all know no one melee, oh I mean smash community takes brawl seriously I'll regress back to good old melee slight but definitely there aspects.

I'd go into how you start the match by picking a random stage but, I'll give you guys that one, instead I'll talk about Peach, Luigi and GaW. Three characters that are inherently random. I don't know about you guys but when I lost the game to a nine hammer which could have been a one or a miss fire I didn't cry and complain about the contents of the game and ***** and moan. I got up shook the guys hand and played my next match.
For me with items it's the same way with items they spawn while I'm off stage ****... I should have been better so I could of had them off stage in my place, thats how I see it. And when you think about how it's possible for every item spare the bumper to be avoided while off the stage it makes you question exactly why you are complaining.
Melee had random stage elements like shy guys and wind blowing , etc. No one complained when they missed an attack or died because of these, well the few who did got "no johns." tossed back at them.
Really how are these moments of oppertunity and different than a star rod or even a smash ball that different.

I watched the EVO matches honestly I enjoyed them, I thought they were exciting, lol. And this is coming from a guy who's been playing melee competitively before there were tournements avalible. Ken got just as many smash balls as CPU but CPU avoided his 1 shot attacks more than once. Ken on the other hand failed to do the same.

I also find it Ironic that a lot of teh same people who call people who main low tier scrubs go to an item on tourney and will say they lost because thier character didn't have a good final smash. The hell man... pick a better charater.

I don't know, overall the when I hear people whining about this crap it sounds very hypocritical to me. If you are going to complain about random aspects and then play brawl or even melee, you are slapping yourself in the face.

 

[clowsui]

We are complaining about random elements which we can REMOVE, not the ones that are beyond our CONTROL. If we could control the rate/circumstances by which a 9 appeared, a stitchface appeared, shy guys appeared, wind blowed, etc. then we would certainly make an effort to control it but the fact is that we can't control those.

For me with items it's the same way with items they spawn while I'm off stage ****... I should have been better so I could of had them off stage in my place, thats how I see it. And when you think about how it's possible for every item spare the bumper to be avoided while off the stage it makes you question exactly why you are complaining.

So you're saying that because you weren't skilled enough to remain on the stage at all times of the match, your opponent deserves a tool that grants him an even greater advantage over you in a situation where he has already a considerable advantage? If we continue this line of thinking, is it tough luck for you that when you get your opponent in the exact same situation you aren't granted that same advantage? What makes it so that your opponent deserves the uncontrollable, advantageous circumstance more than you do? If such circumstances are exclusive to one player, then doesn't that make a game less competitive and less balanced?

I watched the EVO matches honestly I enjoyed them, I thought they were exciting, lol. And this is coming from a guy who's been playing melee competitively before there were tournements avalible. Ken got just as many smash balls as CPU but CPU avoided his 1 shot attacks more than once. Ken on the other hand failed to do the same.

You couldn't have played it competitively before tournaments were available because tournaments are the things that help establish a competitive scene -_-
Also Ken certainly got as many Smash Balls but that's not the question at hand; the questions are

1. Were those Smash Balls distributed by skill/stage control?
2. Was it more difficult for one person to obtain the Smash Ball than the other?
3. Was it easier for one person to lose the Smash Ball than the other?

Ease is a major factor simply because CPU possessed a superior FS to Marth - a 20 second continuous hit with 20% chance of a strong, high knockback attack that kills from the center of BF at 50-60% easily with edgeguarding that is impossible to dodge without long invincibility (i.e. respawn). Comparing Marth's to ROB's...you have a one hit Final Smash whose KO ability can be obstructed by walls but otherwise is a one-hit KO and has no potential to kill after being used once. If both players were not able to access such a weapon at an equal level of ease (i.e. hits to break), then it was detrimental to the competitiveness of the game simply because the game demonstrated a bias. The game is supposed to remain objective and is supposed to remain a slate for the better player to write on with his name.

 

[Jam Stunna]

I must respectfully disagree, James. All of the random elements you listed can be controlled for by either 1) not picking the character that has random effects, or 2) not picking a stage that has random effects. Besides, the character random effects that you listed still required user inputs; Peach doesn't randomly pull out a Doom Turnip on her own.

On the other hand, if a Golden Hammer appears on the left side of the stage, where your opponent is, and you are on the right side, how is that fair or competitive? You are now at a disadvantage because of where an item randomly spawned. That's pretty much the antithesis of competitive play.

 

[Dark Hart]

The game isn't even a year old. How could you know 100% for sure items were unfair? Trust me, if you guys played with items on, we would have ran our tournament exactly the same way. Stop trying to think we're trying to stick it to the Smash Community.

Trust you? Trust you? Why would we trust you when it come to Smash? Why would we trust SRK when it comes to Smash? Trust the SBR. Trust this community, the Smash community. Trust us.

We kept saying, "Don't use items," and you used items. Items are banned in 64 and Melee, and they are no different in Brawl. While it is a new and different game, it is still Smash therefore items are still unfair. They will always be unfair, no amount of arguing or "testing" you or any people do. You tell me, how can they be fair? How can one use items in competitive play so that the worse player doesn't have an advantage?

Now I'm not going to rant about the whole "item cause randomness which takes away competitiveness" because while it is true, you've heard it a thousand times and don't need to hear it once more.

But, I will say this: Whether you meant it or not, using items at EVO offended the Smash community as a whole. Majorly offended. If you want the best of the best to come to EVO2K9 for Brawl, if you want a good turnout at all, I suggest taking them out and never thinking about them again.

 

[theONEjanitor]

Dude, didn't I tell you to stop this sh*t?!? Who says SRK hates Melee? If we did, why the hell did we add it last year in the first place? And THEN bring back Brawl this year? We LOVED Melee from last year and were very happy with it. And we've already told you WHY we chose items: because our community is not used to banning things immediately, only things that are completely obviously broken. Since Brawl was new and nobody knows FOR SURE that items are broken, we felt like we wanted to test it out. The game isn't even a year old. How could you know 100% for sure items were unfair? Trust me, if you guys played with items on, we would have ran our tournament exactly the same way. Stop trying to think we're trying to stick it to the Smash Community.

Look, your post analysing the matches was a good post. Stick to that sort of constructive thing, please. Stop this relentless stupidity of claiming you know what the heads of Evo are thinking and claiming that we are some biased group of people plotting to SPECIFICALLY include AN ENTIRE GAME into our 6-game lineup, wasting our time running AN ENTIRE TOURNAMENT for the sole purpose of pissing off the SMASH COMMUNITY. Yes, that's really what we want to do. How logical is that?

- James

Sorry Dad. I'll follow the instructions of a random poster on a board he doesn't frequent from now on.

Look, stop bull****ting me. I've been viewing SRK forums for years, and it was obviously what the consensus about the Smash community was. All you have to do is read the posts. The overwhelming majority of posters there strongly considered Melee inferior to the other games Evo supports, and they vocalized this opinion very often. If you guys loved Melee so much how come you didn't play it. How come you never came to any of OUR tournaments? If I felt like it I could find specific posts like "Stop whining because we didn't like your old ****ty game and now we're taking over your new game"
and tons of posts of that nature. THESE ARE ACTUAL POSTS. I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP. SRKers write **** like that all the time.

Why did you guys ban items and stages in Melee? If your "community doeesn't ban things immediately"?

We know for sure that items are unfair because its a basic fact about competitive play that anyone with any kind of common sense can figure out. Random = favors the worst player = non-competitive. Period. Period. Period. Period. Period. Period. Period. Period. Period. It's fundamental, provable, logical, simple, and doesn't take years of playing to figure out. Period. Period. Period. Period. Period. Period. It's objective 100% fact, no debate. Period. Period. Period.

And even if it WASN'T completely obvious. Only a vindictive ******** or an idiot would choose to ignore people who know more about the game than them when deciding the rules for that game. As mentioned before, you guys HAVE NO EXPERIENCE with a non-traditional fighting game, so you arbitrarily made a move set based on nothing except the fact that you wanted to spite the Smash community and prove you could take over their game. There's no possible way you would adopt our game and then change the rules to something completely ******** that you KNOW we wouldn't support. That's stupid on who ever runs EVO's part. The ONLY possible reason (besides you guys just being complete *******) is that you wanted to spite us. Like, there's no other possible reason from a Tournament Operator's standpoint.

Don't say "we dont ban stuff", because you banned stuff IN YOUR FIRST Melee tournament. You did because for some reason, you trusted the SMASH community about rules for a SMASH game. How crazy! Also, you don't ban stuff because you DON'T PLAY GAMES THAT HAVE SIMILAR THINGS YOU CAN TURN ON OR OFF. The whole "we don't ban stuff" is such a bull**** argument that I'm surprised any one in this thread is taking it seriously.

And it's a fact as well that your community doesn't know much about Smash, so don't try that angle either. Again this can be proved by looking at your posts. Your forum is filled with horribly incorrect, misleading, and otherwise ******** information about both Melee and Brawl.

Again, just quit bull****ting me. It's old and immature.

I'll give you guys that one, instead I'll talk about Peach, Luigi and GaW. Three characters that are inherently random. I don't know about you guys but when I lost the game to a nine hammer which could have been a one or a miss fire I didn't cry and complain about the contents of the game and ***** and moan. I got up shook the guys hand and played my next match.

I already discussed this. For one, if we could change those things, we definitely would. Secondly, with Peach's, you're already prepared for her random stitchface. You know exactly what situations she can pull it out, you know exactly how long it takes her to pull it out and throw it, you know exactly how big the hitbox is, and it always does the same damage.
A smashball however, spawns randomly, moves randomly, and takes a random amount of damage to break it, there's no way to prepare for it advance, Theres no way to be ready for it, and in many cases theres no way for you to stop the opponent from getting it. CAN YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE??!

For me with items it's the same way with items they spawn while I'm off stage ****... I should have been better so I could of had them off stage in my place, thats how I see it. And when you think about how it's possible for every item spare the bumper to be avoided while off the stage it makes you question exactly why you are complaining.

LMFAO. It's not just off the stage. you both could be ON the stage in perfect position and a good item spawns right behind your opponent. How good you are has nothing to do with it lmfao. You're just making situations up to back up your point and not looking at the big picture.

Melee had random stage elements like shy guys and wind blowing , etc. No one complained when they missed an attack or died because of these, well the few who did got "no johns." tossed back at them.
Really how are these moments of oppertunity and different than a star rod or even a smash ball that different.

PEOPLE DID COMPLAIN. ALL THE ****ING TIME.
Shy guys saved lives all the time, and the wind killed people ALL THE TIME, and WE HATE IT and wish we could turn it off.

I also find it Ironic that a lot of teh same people who call people who main low tier scrubs go to an item on tourney and will say they lost because thier character didn't have a good final smash. The hell man... pick a better charater.

lmfao again. First of all, no one who is good at Smash calls anyone else a scrub unless they suck, it has nothing to do with character. Secondly, no one who is good at smash goes to an items tourney. I suspect the only reason Ken went to evo is because he felt he could take some money from the inevitable amount of scrubs that would actually attend such a dumb tournament. Unfortunately, the skill gap wasn't wider than CPU'S luck could overcome.

 

[Overswarm]

I think you're taking things a bit too seriously, here.

I don't think you're taking them seriously enough.

That's your argument, really?

I want to know, really. I'm curious. What is it that you hope to gain?

You had attendance numbers that are downright embarrassing, the name EVO is now thrown around as a joke, the prize payouts were incredibly small, there is no prestige. The players that went here gained NOTHING but a small amount of cash; hell, if CPU goes to a real tournament and attempts to get better and actually does start winning, this will still be a joke brought up.

So what is it that you have gained? EVO has shown that they are dedicated to doing the opposite of what the smash community wants, but I'm not sure why. They get lower numbers, zero big names, and a whole slew of jokes made in their name. EVO has fallen from the status of "that one 2D fighter tournament thing" to "joke".

Is it the competitive nature? Are you really so hardcore into the idea of competition that you will go out of your way to distance yourself from an entire community and remove money from your events simply because you feel you can make the game better than we have when we've been playing it for over a decade (yeah, people played smash64 competitively; no items there either)?

If you are convinced you are doing the right thing for the game of smash, you're blind and I suggest you do your research. If you are convinced that items will bring in more players... well, you didn't look at your past tournament results.

I am completely perplexed by EVO's attitude and actions. They had the opportunity to hold the single largest smash event for Brawl of the summer; we were excited about it and went out of our way to make SURE it was a good tournament.... and Mr. Wizard, being the grumpy man that he is, ignored all of us and banned Norfair because it was "95% lava".

Your attendance in all games? Dwindling. Our local events get higher turnouts than your national tournaments, and you ignore us? I wonder where that will get you...

 

[Vayseth]

What Ken should have figured by the finals is that if he wanted to play Smash Bros in this setting, it would have to include hunting the ball. And I saw the ROB holding his own in those vids when there weren't items...maybe he wasn't as good as the Marth player, but he was no slouch.

I'm not sure you even realized what was happening in those videos. R.O.B. is a character who gets a lot of benefits from glide tossing and has a great keep away game and quick approaches via this move. We know the kid wasn't a complete slouch because he glide tossed EVERY SINGLE THING he got in his hands. He used reverse ones to get spacing and set up bumpers, he used it to get in position for smash balls, he knew what he was doing. We're not doubting the kid's ability, I mean, he WON, it's more like allowing R.O.B. to have more items that can use his glide toss kind of makes him more powerful than he already is, especially when glide tossing a bat or bumper leads to early K.O.s. You guys just simply didn't understand what was even going on in the matches. We can see it and understand exactly what inputs are happening in these matches. You guys just see stuff flying everywhere.

So, I am interested. It's been said many times. yourself included, that "we know for a fact it is non-competitive." I wonder, how was this determined? I've not heard a single thing about any items being used in tournaments. I know why they were ALL disabled in Melee (explodey stuff), and I'll agree with the reasoning there. But the same thinking doesn't really apply to Brawl.

There's some commentary that "top players determined this in the back room," but I want to know their methodology. How did they test this? Did they run their own private tournaments with items, and then cut out the ones they found overpowering, until they reached a total of zero? Or did they just pull them at the get go because they were so used to no items in melee, they didn't want to go through the trouble of testing these things in Brawl?

I think if the SRK people know exactly WHY the SB folks are against it other than the excuses of "it's random" and "it evens the playing field," both of which are not, by themselves, strong enough arguments, a consensus would be easier to reach.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164675
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=147012

Jack has done a ton of work with items and I suggest you go with his ISP (Item Standard Play) rule sets if you are THAT concerned about items. He gives more than ample explanation for everything that is on there and any questions you have should be answered there. Note that none of us think items in general are illegitimate and Jack has done a fantastic job. It's more than EVO's rule set in particular lacked the research and findings that Jack has, or that the SBR has done in terms of stages. I would look at the SBR rule set for stages and Jack's threads for ISP. They're both highly researched.

Im on your side here, but thats false, Faust in Guilty Gear can throw random items, that im pretty sure are apart of his main strategy, some items being completely useless while others doing huge chunks of health to your opponent, as well as completely changing the pace of the game. Yet its completely random.

(not tryin to sound like a pro guilty gear player or anything)

Gotta look at Dedede for example. He throws out waddle dees, waddle doos, or gordos and they're all random but they're the same move. The point here is that in both cases this is controlled. An input is done and that's what causes the item to come into play, like turnips or Diddy's bananas. Not random chance. But, you know this =P

The only open question in my mind is where to go from here with respect to Evo. We have a mountain of evidence that there is no room in the Brawl community for an items-format tournament sub-community. With that in mind, I'm interested in learning more about the Smash tournament scene at a national/international level to try to figure out where we fit in, if at all. I've played Smash for years (see registration date), but never competitively. I'd appreciate anything you could tell me about long-running tournament series for Smash, big upcoming tournaments for '09, or anything you think is relevant. I'd also like to hear if people would attend a no-item, 3 Stock, 7-minute, etc. tournament in Evo '09 Vegas tournament.

Honestly, I don't know anyone but Jack who has been looking into items that much. We know that items are found in Japanese doubles play but strictly banned in singles play. I'm not sure where EVO fits in and I almost guarantee that you will get the best players if you play with some variation of the SBR recommended rule set.

I'd go into how you start the match by picking a random stage but, I'll give you guys that one, instead I'll talk about Peach, Luigi and GaW. Three characters that are inherently random. I don't know about you guys but when I lost the game to a nine hammer which could have been a one or a miss fire I didn't cry and complain about the contents of the game and ***** and moan. I got up shook the guys hand and played my next match.

I watched the EVO matches honestly I enjoyed them, I thought they were exciting, lol. And this is coming from a guy who's been playing melee competitively before there were tournements avalible. Ken got just as many smash balls as CPU but CPU avoided his 1 shot attacks more than once. Ken on the other hand failed to do the same.

I don't know, overall the when I hear people whining about this crap it sounds very hypocritical to me. If you are going to complain about random aspects and then play brawl or even melee, you are slapping yourself in the face.

I will agree with a lot of what you said. I think the finals were fun to watch. However, I will also point out that it's more EVO's rule set which was the problem. If they wanted items, they could have used Jack's set, which is researched, or they could have used the standard stage lists that most of us have been using for a while but they didn't. They went with their own stuff at their discretion, which is why everyone is so crazy right now. If they want items, fine, but I wouldn't expect "smash pros" to show up to it because most top players find items unappealing. That's all.

If you noticed, most of us use the stage strike system to remove randomness, we removed that hypocrisy a while back. Also, as I posted to Afro, the fact that you do an input and the move property itself leads to random items, is just from that move property, and is part of the game and no one is going to complain as long as it's not too broke (if it were, the character would be banned). But the fact that you entered an input which then brought the item into play means that you controlled when the item came into play, where and in all places the player and opponent can react accordingly. Items randomly spawn, which is unknown to both players which leads to the randomness leading to early/unfair deaths everyone is talking about.That's the key difference.

 

[Harbinger631]

Ease is a major factor simply because CPU possessed a superior FS to Marth - a 20 second continuous hit with 20% chance of a strong, high knockback attack that kills from the center of BF at 50-60% easily with edgeguarding that is impossible to dodge without long invincibility (i.e. respawn). Comparing Marth's to ROB's...you have a one hit Final Smash whose KO ability can be obstructed by walls but otherwise is a one-hit KO and has no potential to kill after being used once. If both players were not able to access such a weapon at an equal level of ease (i.e. hits to break), then it was detrimental to the competitiveness of the game simply because the game demonstrated a bias. The game is supposed to remain objective and is supposed to remain a slate for the better player to write on with his name.

Do you believe in tiers? With SBR rules, Captain Falcon has little chance of beating a Meta Knight if the players have similar abilities. In fact, a CF, even though he has superior technical ability to the MK, can still lose.

Similiarly, some characters are better at getting smash balls than others. The difference in FS powers doesn't really matter (unless you play Samus) because as long as you have it, you won't be up against their final smash, it can never hurt to try to hit with your FS, and even if you miss, you can still overcome your opponent with more conventional means.

From the matches I saw, both players had a chance to crack the smashball. Some people disagree, thinking it was literally impossible for Ken to grab certain smash balls, and vice versa, something I disagree with. I think with intelligent play, play that will come after increased familiarity with smashballs, people will be able to consistently crack them, as cpu was doing.

Regardless, you have to consider the tier list for the particular rule set you're playing, and choose your character accordingly, or you WILL be fighting an up-hill battle. This is true no matter what rule-set you have.

Also, to make up for an instance where a smash ball does, in fact, completely and utterly favor one side (something I think would be a rare occurance, since I didn't see one in any EVO matches on youtube), stock should be set to five. This way, adequate time would be given for luck to even out.

 

[Jam Stunna]

I don't think you're taking them seriously enough.

That's your argument, really?

I want to know, really. I'm curious. What is it that you hope to gain?

You had attendance numbers that are downright embarrassing, the name EVO is now thrown around as a joke, the prize payouts were incredibly small, there is no prestige. The players that went here gained NOTHING but a small amount of cash; hell, if CPU goes to a real tournament and attempts to get better and actually does start winning, this will still be a joke brought up.

So what is it that you have gained? EVO has shown that they are dedicated to doing the opposite of what the smash community wants, but I'm not sure why. They get lower numbers, zero big names, and a whole slew of jokes made in their name. EVO has fallen from the status of "that one 2D fighter tournament thing" to "joke".

Is it the competitive nature? Are you really so hardcore into the idea of competition that you will go out of your way to distance yourself from an entire community and remove money from your events simply because you feel you can make the game better than we have when we've been playing it for over a decade (yeah, people played smash64 competitively; no items there either)?

If you are convinced you are doing the right thing for the game of smash, you're blind and I suggest you do your research. If you are convinced that items will bring in more players... well, you didn't look at your past tournament results.

I am completely perplexed by EVO's attitude and actions. They had the opportunity to hold the single largest smash event for Brawl of the summer; we were excited about it and went out of our way to make SURE it was a good tournament.... and Mr. Wizard, being the grumpy man that he is, ignored all of us and banned Norfair because it was "95% lava".

Your attendance in all games? Dwindling. Our local events get higher turnouts than your national tournaments, and you ignore us? I wonder where that will get you...

I'm almost certain that EVO went out of its way to try to make Brawl (and the entire Smash community by extension) look like a joke. It's the only reasonable explanation.

EDIT- No, I AM certain.

 

[Meleeruler]

Me and <3 were talking on AIM and I thought our conversation was pretty cool. Check it out. And if you are going to flame, flame nicely ;_;


Craigswf (9:01:27 PM): it seems you are on evo'
Craigswf (9:01:30 PM): s side?
Craigswf (9:01:40 PM): i was readin the evo thread
ThanThree (9:01:43 PM): yes and no...
Craigswf (9:01:57 PM): hmmm
ThanThree (9:02:31 PM): I want to see how items stand up in compedetive play that much is true
ThanThree (9:02:50 PM): I don't think any items are really all that game breaking, that is also true
ThanThree (9:03:27 PM): But all that said I'm cool with no items as well
Craigswf (9:03:44 PM): well at least you stand by your opinion
ThanThree (9:04:45 PM): If I got a reason other than "Random destroys compedetive games!" then I'd be fine with no items I'd be for it but thats all I get.
ThanThree (9:05:29 PM): Um... if there was an item that once picked up won you the match I'd be agianst items.
ThanThree (9:07:16 PM): there is nothing that can't be avoided... whats the word I'm looking for... avoided practically. by that I mean it is easily within human grasp to avoid anything thrown at you in brawl (and melee for that matter) but what ever the comunity wins. majority rules and I'm fine with that.
ThanThree (9:07:27 PM): But I'm still going to voice my views.
Craigswf (9:08:28 PM): well thats respectable
ThanThree (9:09:33 PM): yeah... I was kinda pro items in melee but I didn't really care that much. I was hoping with brawl things would start completely fresh like melee did
ThanThree (9:09:44 PM): but whatever its a game its not that big a deal.
ThanThree (9:09:54 PM): whats your stance on the whole thing?
Craigswf (9:13:07 PM): well, im anti items. i too sadly am one of the ones opposed to items due to randomness. i 100% agree that when you or an opponent has an item its completely possible to avoid. my problem lies in random spawning. lets say an item spawned by me. in my opinion that gave me an unfair advantage. now lets say intead, the item spawned by my opponent. if you ask me, the item spawning by him will give completely different results than if it spawned by me, and the fact that the point where the item spawns can in theory give an advantage to a player doesnt sit well with me.

and i find final smashes overpowered : D
Craigswf (9:13:48 PM): and my argument in melee of course was the random exploding capsules
ThanThree (9:14:04 PM): yeah that kind of won me over for melee... kind of...
ThanThree (9:14:35 PM): honestly my friends don't like items so I don't play with them as often as I'd like so I'm not sure if it;s true for brawl.
ThanThree (9:14:44 PM): but melee items spawn at set points
ThanThree (9:14:59 PM): if you avoid these point you avoid sudden deaths.
ThanThree (9:15:33 PM): once I found that out I never died to a bomb or capsle ever again, lol.
ThanThree (9:15:43 PM): but I understand that argument.
ThanThree (9:16:02 PM): In my mind all items do is give you a new often times limited moveset
Craigswf (9:16:27 PM): well thats definitely true in some cases
ThanThree (9:16:32 PM): so in my mind it isn't an advantage
ThanThree (9:17:46 PM): final smashes take away my nuetral B, lol I hate that!
ThanThree (9:17:51 PM): for shiek I need needles
Craigswf (9:18:30 PM): well although items make your moves limited i think most of the time they easily make up for it in thier effects
ThanThree (9:18:35 PM): but yeah thats basically what I mean by that nothing comes without a price
ThanThree (9:19:14 PM): I remember when I first got the game I was going samus every single time I got a smash ball I died hit or miss with her final smash
ThanThree (9:19:51 PM): she has like a good 10 15 seconds of I'm don with my shot animation before she can move
ThanThree (9:20:06 PM): a whole second or so of that she is open to attack.
ThanThree (9:20:17 PM): lame...
ThanThree (9:21:16 PM): *shrugs* I don't know in my experinces it kind of balances out. not is too rediculously powerful the things that are are very limited. like marth final smash that was dodge what 3 out of the four times he got it?
Craigswf (9:21:46 PM): i didnt watch all the matches but yeah probably
Craigswf (9:23:15 PM): if you ask me, final smashes are over powered because one tiny mistake can cost you a stock even at 0%. although what is and what isnt overpowered isnt definite, i believe it is so
ThanThree (9:23:29 PM): thats true in smash regardless
ThanThree (9:23:48 PM): one tny mistake agianst a fox or math (in melee) would cost you a stock.
Craigswf (9:23:54 PM): well
Craigswf (9:24:41 PM): true, but to actually get a stock off them you had to use instense amounts of well timed and thought out skill, whislt a final smash doesnt usually require even remotely that much skill and preparation and timing
Craigswf (9:25:06 PM): in general anyway
Craigswf (9:25:09 PM): not evertime
Craigswf (9:25:12 PM): aka shinespike
ThanThree (9:25:24 PM): yeah, okay I'll give you that.
ThanThree (9:27:10 PM): I have a whole big philosophy about fighting games. I think the amount of technical skill it takes to acomplish something isn't important if you can do it consistently. walking and short tap speed slides are both forms of moving then the level of difficulty doesn't really matter between the two they both get the same job done.
ThanThree (9:28:40 PM): That stems from friends of mine who'd say. "With marth it's hard to tipper so it makes him more balanced." If it can be done consistently who cares how complex it is.
ThanThree (9:29:37 PM): needs to tipper a kill at 60 pikachu can upsmash a kill at 60 which is the better kill move?
ThanThree (9:29:46 PM): it doesn't matter they both get the job done
ThanThree (9:30:10 PM): those numbers are way off and you'd take range and speed etc into account but you get my drift I hope, lol.
Craigswf (9:31:43 PM): well i can definitely see what you mean, -broom material edit-my stance is if you can pull it off consistantly, then you deserve the reward; it makes you that much better than those that can't, widening the skill needed to compete. but thats just me
ThanThree (9:34:48 PM): Thats cool too, the player should be rewarded for hard to pull of combos.
Craigswf (9:35:19 PM): ok question time; would you want evo2k9 to have sbr rules or keep their current rules?
ThanThree (9:36:11 PM): the biggest turn out
Craigswf (9:38:32 PM): explain. i think i get what you mean but just to make sure
Craigswf (9:45:00 PM): lol you have a brain fart?
ThanThree (9:45:29 PM): which ever of the two would get the largest turn out. I enjoy (good) items on matches and item free matches a lot so either or
ThanThree (9:45:46 PM): If I was going I'd perfer items off actually just because right now thats where I'm more experinced
ThanThree (9:45:57 PM): I also think that will get the largest turn out.
Craigswf (9:46:01 PM): i agree
Craigswf (9:46:14 PM): lol heres an idea; you wanna post this discussion in the thread? lol
ThanThree (9:47:18 PM): sure, yeah.
Craigswf (9:47:23 PM): lol ok

 

[jchensor]

Trust you? Trust you? Why would we trust you when it come to Smash? Why would we trust SRK when it comes to Smash? Trust the SBR. Trust this community, the Smash community. Trust us.

Keep up with the conversation, Turbo. theONEjanitor said if the Smash Community played with items, Evo would play WITHOUT them just to spite you guys. My statement was in response to that. "Trust me, if the Smash community DID play with items, we would have ran our tourney the exact same way." In other words, we didn't do anything in particular just to piss anyone off. The statement was in no way a proclamation of what rules were better. It was a response to the claim that we supposedly made our decisions JUST to be opposite.

- James

 

[jchensor]

Look, stop bull****ting me. I've been viewing SRK forums for years, and it was obviously what the consensus about the Smash community was.

I get what you are saying now. You are saying SRK hates Smash. I've seen as many Smash hating posts as you have, I thought you were referring to Evo when you were talknig about SRK. Believe me, plenty of people on SRK have gotten mad at what Evo has done as well. They aren't equatable. Just because SRK hates Smash doesn't mean Evo will try to run it in a way to spite you guys. Again, it's such a waste of time and effort to run a tourney for the specific purpose of spiting someone. Believing that is what is actually immature.

Why did you guys ban items and stages in Melee? If your "community doeesn't ban things immediately"?

Melee was a five year old game at that point. Brawl is brand new. We banned Akuma in Super Turbo. When HD Remix comes out, which is an upgrade to Super Turbo, should we ban Akuma right away just because he was banned in the previous version? Or should we try him out and see if he is fair now?

We know for sure that items are unfair because its a basic fact about competitive play that anyone with any kind of common sense can figure out. Random = favors the worst player = non-competitive. Period. Period. Period. Period. Period. Period. Period. Period. Period. It's fundamental, provable, logical, simple, and doesn't take years of playing to figure out. Period. Period. Period. Period. Period. Period. It's objective 100% fact, no debate. Period. Period. Period.

There are tons of random factors in a lot of games. Random doesn't automatically = unfair. Do you think, then, that a game like Tetris DS isn't worthy of competitive play? If we ran a tournament for that game, would the best player not win most of the time? Is there a reason why the better professional Poker players still perform the best every year in Poker tournaments?

The ONLY possible reason (besides you guys just being complete *******) is that you wanted to spite us. Like, there's no other possible reason from a Tournament Operator's standpoint.

Again, just quit bull****ting me. It's old and immature.

Mmm-hmm. Just ask anyone reading your posts and my posts and have them say who is being immature.

- James

 

[Dastrn]

Do you believe in tiers? With SBR rules, Captain Falcon has little chance of beating a Meta Knight if the players have similar abilities. In fact, a CF, even though he has superior technical ability to the MK, can still lose.

Similiarly, some characters are better at getting smash balls than others. The difference in FS powers doesn't really matter (unless you play Samus) because as long as you have it, you won't be up against their final smash, it can never hurt to try to hit with your FS, and even if you miss, you can still overcome your opponent with more conventional means.

From the matches I saw, both players had a chance to crack the smashball. Some people disagree, thinking it was literally impossible for Ken to grab certain smash balls, and vice versa, something I disagree with. I think with intelligent play, play that will come after increased familiarity with smashballs, people will be able to consistently crack them, as cpu was doing.

Regardless, you have to consider the tier list for the particular rule set you're playing, and choose your character accordingly, or you WILL be fighting an up-hill battle. This is true no matter what rule-set you have.

Also, to make up for an instance where a smash ball does, in fact, completely and utterly favor one side (something I think would be a rare occurance, since I didn't see one in any EVO matches on youtube), stock should be set to five. This way, adequate time would be given for luck to even out.

It appears that you have not carefully read my posts.

Smashballs tend to hover towards the player who is behind. It's not a blatant difference that you would have been able to deduce from such a small amount of data as watching one tournament (you wouldn't even notice a 20% difference, because it all looks random to you.) If I remember correctly, they even break earlier for whoever is behind.

We have not done significant testing to determine if other item spawns do the same thing, but given Sakurai's interviews, it wouldn't surprise me if he designed normal items to work that way as well.

 

[Harbinger631]

It appears that you have not carefully read my posts.

Smashballs tend to hover towards the player who is behind. It's not a blatant difference that you would have been able to deduce from such a small amount of data as watching one tournament (you wouldn't even notice a 20% difference, because it all looks random to you.) If I remember correctly, they even break earlier for whoever is behind.

We have not done significant testing to determine if other item spawns do the same thing, but given Sakurai's interviews, it wouldn't surprise me if he designed normal items to work that way as well.

That is a legitimate concern, but in any of those matches from Evo did you think it was literally impossible for one player to grab the smashball? Which one? There are some characters who are really good at catching smashballs, even if they might drift towards the losing player, like Pit, ROB, Zelda, Pikachu, Lucas, and Ness. As long as it's possible for both players to grab the smash ball, it can be a decent competitive game (albeit a boring one, in my opinion).

If it does turn out that grabbing smashballs are often literally impossible for one side, then smashball play should be dropped competitively.