My original fears of Nintendo balancing Smash are coming true.

[raymundoTheGod]

What needs to be patches is rolling,

Forreal. I can barely catch people who spam roll and stall until SD.

 

[LOGIA666]

Forreal. I can barely catch people who spam roll and stall until SD.

I find moves like Rob's down smash to be the kryptonite of rolls.

 

[Phantom High]

I find moves like Rob's smash to be the kryptonite of rolls.

sadly not every character has an answer to roll.

rolling needs to have a little bit more recovery.

 

[howbadisbad]

I'd much rather play the game it was ment to be played. Players need to have these potentially degenerate options taken away before they'll stop using them. *coughMKDSsnakingcough* Even if they're not that big, how do you think somebody who didn't know about the glitch would feel if he lost because of it? In case you haven't noticed, there's typically a strong aversion to glitches that give players an advantage. Firehopping in MK8 anyone? It barely makes a difference unless you're playing mushrooms only or something, and yet there was a pretty big comotion about it. Nintendo, a largely casual focused company, is interested in keeping the average Joe player happy over a hardcore one.

Keeping the average joe happy is nonsense, since the average joe will most likely never see tournament footage, or learn about any of the ATs present in smash games. Melee was a bestseller on the Gamecube, consumed by casuals and hardcores alike.

Nintendo is simply forcing you to play how they want you to play.

 

[Captain Norris]

rolls just need less invincibility frames. At least, that is the biggest problem. And not all rolls are great, as they vary from character to character. I would say that Palutena's and Rosaluma's should not change as they offer amazing mind games.

 

[LOGIA666]

sadly not every character has an answer to roll.

rolling needs to have a little bit more recovery.

Made a typo. That was meant to be "down smash", not just "smash"

I'm sure you still got the picture anyway, and you're right. Not everyone has the tools to deal with rolling.

Is it good in this game? Yes. Perhaps the best.
Is it broken? I'd say not. Just makes the game a tad bit more defensive is all.

 

[hariooo]

You're going to be disappointed if you think you can win Smash 4 games with no tech skill.

Also I feel like I'm the only one who watched the entire top 8 of KTAR roll to the ledge all game every game with no fear.

 

[MegaMissingno]

rolls just need less invincibility frames. At least, that is the biggest problem. And not all rolls are great, as they vary from character to character. I would say that Palutena's and Rosaluma's should not change as they offer amazing mind games.

I'll give you Palutena, but Rosalina? She already has one hell of an amazing defensive tool to keep the opponent out: the Luma. She doesn't need the roll on top of that. Especially since it ends up negating what's supposed to be her main weakness, whenever Luma dies she can just keep rolling until it respawns. She needs to be more vulnerable once that thing is down.

 

[LancerStaff]

this is the first generation where Nintendo is seriously doing dlc and patches. more likely than not, they have no clue on what to do.

i mean there fact the community had to find our own patch notes shows how behind Nintendo are.

Unless they didn't show them to prevent mass complaining. Which the Smash fanbase rather clearly would of.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You're going to be disappointed if you think you can win Smash 4 games with no tech skill.

Also I feel like I'm the only one who watched the entire top 8 of KTAR roll to the ledge all game every game with no fear.

People pointed this out multiple times, stage control is a thing.

Rolling to the ledge has your back against a wall.

 

[LancerStaff]

Keeping the average joe happy is nonsense, since the average joe will most likely never see tournament footage, or learn about any of the ATs present in smash games. Melee was a bestseller on the Gamecube, consumed by casuals and hardcores alike.

Nintendo is simply forcing you to play how they want you to play.

Melee was a bestseller, but there wasn't any complaining because Wi-Fi wasn't a thing yet. People would be calling Melee a glitchy piece of trash if they had to deal with a better player online. People did for MKDS.

Nintendo is trying to keep the most people happy as possible, and I can safely say that the people who want ATs are outnumbered by those who don't. Look around this topic: There's plenty of competitive players happy to see this stuff gone.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I've been hearing so much about the word AT here.
Are you guys referring to Assist Trophy or something else, just curious.

 

[Snowfin]

Please read my post and the article I linked to in my post please, rather than dismissing it offhand because it doesn't fit your preconceived notions.

The shortened version:
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win

Full book:
Web version here:
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw
and PDF version:
http://the-confederation.net/_fr/11/playingtowin.pdf

just let it be man.... he wont get it, a lot of them wont get it. Its just like when Brawl came out... They argue and disagree, but they dont even understand the problem.

 

[otter]

I've been hearing so much about the word AT here.
Are you guys referring to Assist Trophy or something else, just curious.

"Advanced Technique"

Nintendo is trying to keep the most people happy as possible, and I can safely say that the people who want ATs are outnumbered by those who don't. Look around this topic: There's plenty of competitive players happy to see this stuff gone.

Why can't scrubs just play how they want regardless of what's possible in the engine? Is it really that easy to convince yourself that your an equal player by making the game easier?

 

[LightLV]

People pointed this out multiple times, stage control is a thing.

Rolling to the ledge has your back against a wall.

Lol, please

 

[phoenixairs]

Why can't scrubs just play how they want regardless of what's possible in the engine? Is it really that easy to convince yourself that your an equal player by making the game easier?

Is it really that easy to convince yourself that you're a better player because you uses glitches the other person doesn't know about?

I do agree that most casual players could just complete ignore it and play the game exactly the same. Which brings us to the competitive scene:

The way I see it, if Nintendo really wanted Smash to be a competitive game, they'd probably want control over how it's played. It would be horrible (from their point of view) for them to host a tournament where people ask "why can the characters move like that?" and they realize it's some "Advanced Technique" that changes the look and feel of the game.

Removing ATs removes emphasis on physical button input and moves it to strategy and mind-games. For some people this will be less fun, for others it'll be more fun, so there's no dominant choice that makes everyone happy. But since removing them also lets Sakurai / Nintendo dictate how the game is played, that's the direction they'll go.

 

[-LzR-]

Removing ATs removes emphasis on physical button input and moves it to strategy and mind-games. For some people this will be less fun, for others it'll be more fun, so there's no dominant choice that makes everyone happy. But since removing them also lets Sakurai / Nintendo dictate how the game is played, that's the direction they'll go.

Here we go again, technical requirements lower the value of outplaying your opponents. Case closed.

 

[Strofirko]

The logic of this entire thread itself is:
"Fix what I don't like,but don't fix what I like"

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

"Advanced Technique"



Why can't scrubs just play how they want regardless of what's possible in the engine? Is it really that easy to convince yourself that your an equal player by making the game easier?

I would question what would make the game better for balance it not given what was added or removed.

 

[LightLV]

Removing ATs removes emphasis on physical button input and moves it to strategy and mind-games. For some people this will be less fun, for others it'll be more fun, so there's no dominant choice that makes everyone happy. But since removing them also lets Sakurai / Nintendo dictate how the game is played, that's the direction they'll go.

Removing ATs will only ever reduce the amount of strategy and mind-games. Whether it's a minor oversight with huge effects (bomb cancelling) or hilarious physics-shattering bug (wectoring), the thing that ATs bring to smash are OPTIONS, in a game that is increasingly about removing them. Smash has no actual system mechanics that allow for stuff like situational animation cancels.

That's why people like ATs, so they can feel like they have a reason to actually go into Training mode, or feel like there's more to learn about their character other than when to dodge, or when to press a button.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Removing ATs will only ever reduce the amount of strategy and mind-games. Whether it's a minor oversight with huge effects (bomb cancelling) or hilarious physics-shattering bug (wectoring), the thing that ATs bring to smash are OPTIONS, in a game that is increasingly about removing them. Smash has no actual system mechanics that allow for stuff like situational animation cancels.

That's why people like ATs, so they can feel like they have a reason to actually go into Training mode, or feel like there's more to learn about their character other than when to dodge, or when to press a button.

Or it removes options and depth, because it is superior to other options. Or it makes characters get locked into some dumb stuff like the Zss Robin infinite.

 

[Maki]

One of the biggest gripes I have about this game is how restricted dashes are, or approach options in general really. The most natural form of movement turns out to be the most terrible. You can dash attack, which sucks for a lot of characters. You can dashgrab, which is typically slow and punishable. You can up-smash, which usually doesn't hit a target directly in front of you. That's all you get. Dashdancing for better timing and positioning is gone. JC grabs to avoid ****ty dashgrabs are gone. Obviously there's no wavedashes to access your full standing arsenal either. And now there's no DACUS to get some better range that actually can hit what's in front of you.

Please, explain to me how this is somehow supposed to be a good thing.

It's excellent for bad players actually. You know when it takes a few minutes to take a stock from a guy who doesn't even knows his character because you have no tools to approach him? Even if he loses he'll think it was fun or something like that.

But, anyway, it seems Nintendo removed the barriers to the "Smash Sakurai always wanted". In Brawl we found ATs but Nintendo couldn't stop them. Now that patches are a reality, any "abuse of the system" will be removed to "keep the evironment fun and fair to all players".

This doesn't bothers me at all as I already had low expectations, but it'll hurt seeing people (like the first poster in this thread) promoting this game to Evo "because it's Smash", not realizing that Smash only got respect and grew thanks to Melee and all its ATs.

Unless they didn't show them to prevent mass complaining. Which the Smash fanbase rather clearly would of.

Every fanbase complains to balance patches. Are you saying that a company won't be transparent to avoid complaints? They aren't kids you know.

 

[Nobie]

It's a big mistake to think that Melee would not be anything without its advanced techniques. In the days before wavedashing was discovered, did people pick up the game and go, "Man, something about this game is missing. Where's my ability to move more quickly than walking while still having full access to all of my attacks?" It's only after people started doing it that they believed it was absolutely vital to the competitive success of the game. Nor does Melee become a slow, boring game without all of those advanced techniques. No L-canceling doesn't remove Sheik's f-tilt. No wavedashing doesn't suddenly make Fox fall more slowly or Reflector not activate in 1 frame. There's so much to Melee that to focus on the advanced techniques is to miss the forest for the trees.

Dashing is a limited option, yes, but it makes walking that much more important.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Dashing isn't really limited.

 

[Nobie]

Dashing isn't really limited.

I meant in the sense that it's intentionally designed to restrict certain actions, like smash attacks and tilts. It forces you to give up some versatility in favor of movement.

 

[hariooo]

People pointed this out multiple times, stage control is a thing.

Rolling to the ledge has your back against a wall.

And yet top 8 at KTAR had no problem with rolling to the edge anyway in spite of its alleged significant drawbacks.

The point is that the drawbacks exist but not nearly as severely as some people "I can tipper fsmash rolls on reaction" believe. I mean if that's true you should've gone to Rutgers last weekend and won $1k easy.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

And yet top 8 at KTAR had no problem with rolling to the edge anyway in spite of its alleged significant drawbacks.

The point is that the drawbacks exist but not nearly as severely as some people "I can tipper fsmash rolls on reaction" believe. I mean if that's true you should've gone to Rutgers last weekend and won $1k easy.

I referred to rolling into a player when I said that which, 90% of people were complaining about in this thread. Marth can easily punish rolls.

Stage control matters in every smash game. That's a fact.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

And yet top 8 at KTAR had no problem with rolling to the edge anyway in spite of its alleged significant drawbacks.

The point is that the drawbacks exist but not nearly as severely as some people "I can tipper fsmash rolls on reaction" believe. I mean if that's true you should've gone to Rutgers last weekend and won $1k easy.

I referred to rolling into a player when I said that which, 90% of people were complaining about in this thread. Marth can easily punish rolls.

Stage control matters in every smash game. That's a fact.

 

[hariooo]

I'm not sure how "Stage control matters in every smash game. That's a fact." contradicts "it matters but it apparently doesn't matter too much according to top players at KTAR". Based on available evidence we've seen rolling go significantly unpunished at major tournaments.

 

[TTTTTsd]

It could be that the WiiU version's been out for all of a week.

 

[BoldFish]

That's ridiculous. You talk about ATs as if no one else can learn them. Two high level players will usually know all of the relevant ATs for their character, and they'll be able to do them well. The game always comes down to strategy and the precise context in which you choose to make a particular action.

Do you not understand that some top players are more technical than others? I feel like that's a pretty well accepted concept...

 

[hariooo]

It could be that the WiiU version's been out for all of a week.

Well the 3DS version has been out a few months. Going from that to a controller should only increase your reaction speed. Let's not act no one is familiar with the engine.

And rolls in general have been out for 15 years. It's not some revolutionary concept people have to get used to. People know what rolls are and how to punish them. It's just overwhelmingly difficult to execute a significant punish (getting 7% off a tilt and resetting the game to neutral being not significant in this context).

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yes the controls are more precise but people gotta...well, throw away all the 3DS muscle memory they may have developed.

All I'm going to say is rolling away constantly is not a good idea in the long term and people are only gonna find ways to crush it hard if they haven't already. I'm not even gonna cite stage control, as people get better at this game doing this is gonna be a significantly worse option.

 

[otter]

Here we go again, technical requirements lower the value of outplaying your opponents. Case closed.

The problem is that technical requirements are a huge part of what makes fighting games interesting. From a competitive point of view, a castrated version of smash could never be as good as a Nintendo themed chess set. 20 years from now, melee with be seen as a competitive masterpiece, as Street Fighter 2 is today. Maybe way more than that depending on how early video games are seen by society. This hypothetical smash with no tech barriers Is rock/paper/scissors with an element of spacing, how is that supposed to stay interesting as long as melee or starcraft? Nintendo only wants it to stay interesting until the trailer for the next game is ready, but it's unlikely to even last that long.

on the topic of rolls, why is it that the same people who want to remove technical barriers from the game, also think it's a good idea to need super human reactions to punish rolls? I don't agree with taking all barriers from the game, but I get it. What I don't understand is being in favor of removing techs that 75% of the player base can do with a little work that makes their progress obvious and makes the game more fun for them, and replacing with techs that only 10% of the player base can do and makes them enjoy the game less.

 

[Zelder]

I'm not sure how "Stage control matters in every smash game. That's a fact." contradicts "it matters but it apparently doesn't matter too much according to top players at KTAR". Based on available evidence we've seen rolling go significantly unpunished at major tournaments.

This is a pretty good argument actually. All the top players, ever, in the world, were gathered at this one weekly that took place well into the game's lifespan. And think about this: his data has a sample size of one! It's pretty much irrefutable at this point.

 

[Nobie]

on the topic of rolls, why is it that the same people who want to remove technical barriers from the game, also think it's a good idea to need super human reactions to punish rolls? I don't agree with taking all barriers from the game, but I get it. What I don't understand is being in favor of removing techs that 75% of the player base can do with a little work that makes their progress obvious and makes the game more fun for them, and replacing with techs that only 10% of the player base can do and makes them enjoy the game less.

The flaw in your thinking is that you believe that reaction time is the key to defeating rolls, as if the process should be 1) the opponent rolls 2) I saw that he rolled 3) I can hit him as soon as he gets out of it. That's not what beats rolls, predicting the roll in advance and planning for it so that you meet them as their invulnerability ends is how you do it. Some characters might be able to defeat rolls on reaction, but others aren't, which shapes how characters are played. Just because Ganondorf's attacks are too slow to hit a roll on reaction doesn't mean he's bad at punishing rolls.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm not sure how "Stage control matters in every smash game. That's a fact." contradicts "it matters but it apparently doesn't matter too much according to top players at KTAR". Based on available evidence we've seen rolling go significantly unpunished at major tournaments.

Got vids?

If not or even if they rolled more than usual. It will tone down.

 

[BoldFish]

Is it really that easy to convince yourself that you're a better player because you uses glitches the other person doesn't know about?

I do agree that most casual players could just complete ignore it and play the game exactly the same. Which brings us to the competitive scene:

The way I see it, if Nintendo really wanted Smash to be a competitive game, they'd probably want control over how it's played. It would be horrible (from their point of view) for them to host a tournament where people ask "why can the characters move like that?" and they realize it's some "Advanced Technique" that changes the look and feel of the game.

Removing ATs removes emphasis on physical button input and moves it to strategy and mind-games. For some people this will be less fun, for others it'll be more fun, so there's no dominant choice that makes everyone happy. But since removing them also lets Sakurai / Nintendo dictate how the game is played, that's the direction they'll go.

ATs are actually one of the main ways to implement Mind Games...

 

[otter]

This is a pretty good argument actually. All the top players, ever, in the world, were gathered at this one weekly that took place well into the game's lifespan. And think about this: his data has a sample size of one! It's pretty much irrefutable at this point.

The trend has been pretty clear on streams, as well. Even so, why would you punish someone for refuting "here's my opinion, fact!" with clear evidence, even if little is available?

 

[|RK|]

Do you not understand that some top players are more technical than others? I feel like that's a pretty well accepted concept...

Yes, and? Even with no ATs at all (ATs being defined as unintentional aspects, so b-reversals, shorthops, combo strings, pivots and clever usage of established concepts are not included), a player that is more technical can still be more technical. If your worry is that people that are good because of sheer reflex and understanding where to use particular techniques won't be able to, then you shouldn't be.