My biggest pet peeve of most Olimar mains

[RichBrown]

What in the world is your logic for using forward, back, and upthrow for anything other than a KO??? Upthrow I can sorta understand: sometimes at those mid percents, if you grab with a white, an upthrow can lead to a nice upB, or a uair, or whatever, since they usually DI it weird.

But Fthrow and Bthrow? Really? There are a couple scenarios in which these throws are acceptable even if they aren't used for killing, which I will go over in a sec. But overall, they should almost NEVER be used in place of downthrow.

Some of you might protest that these throws are good for getting characters off stage and setting up gimping opportunities. Well I'm here to tell you, I've been watching a LOT of you guys play on youtube lately, and very rarely do your fthrows and bthrows lead to anything whatsoever. In fact, sometimes it puts you guys in even worse position, meanwhile diminishing the power of your throws.

Dthrow is always the better option. Yeah, I know, the second argument is that the throws are used for the extra damage. But wouldn't you rather get the damage from the dthrow+follow up damage? And if you use Dthrow a lot, it gets diminished, so even at high %s you can still follow up. And it's sooooo much easier to follow up a dthrow than it is uthrow, fthrow, and bthrow, which have no follow ups.

Times when it's ok to use fthrow or bthrow:

The Rich Brown Snake gimp: grab a snake at the ledge, fthrow or bthrow to get him off the ledge, then Fsmash him. They almost always jump into it, then you can spike them.

Doubles: I use all my throws in doubles, since I can throw them into my team mate, or their team mate, or if I need to get rid of them quickly because their team mate is gonna hit me.

Pokemon stadium walls: There are some cool follow ups you can do.

And honestly, that's about it for me.

So PLEASE everyone, start using dthrow from now on and stop wasting your forward, back, and upthrows. I cringe every time I see this in your videos, and it got so bad that I finally felt compelled to make an entire topic about it. I hope you've all been enlightened. If you ever wanna talk Oli, just contact me on AIM. My SN=RichBrPWN. Now go out and start ******, our character is capable of so much more than what he is doing right now.

Edit: any throw is acceptable against ice climbers, just make sure you use the right one for the right situation. Maybe ill think of more later, it's almost 4 in the morning here...

 

[IcyLight]

you shouldn't have to worry about stale moves with olimar unless vs. mk, because we usually camp with sideb most of the time regardless with keeps most of our moves pretty fresh. i'v never had an issue really where my fthrow/bthrow/uthrow were too stale to get a kill at the right %'s, and i use those throws a lot =/

my biggest annoyance is how much most of us roll. i can't help it myself, and most of us do it a lot :X

 

[BOB SAGET!]

lol, ive seen a lot of oli mains bthrow to get the foe to the edge.

 

[Dnyce]

Discussion Input.

Problem:
Use of Olimar’s forward-throw and back-throw.

Assessment:
=Using forward-throw or back-throw can be beneficial in regaining breathing room or space.
=->Perhaps when being pressured, needing to establish stage control or trying to disrupt the opponent’s stage control.
=Acknowledging that you can also use down-throw in a similar situations, using down-throw can put your opponent near Olimar’s weak spot.
=->Additionally, using primarily down-throw you become more predictable and follow-ups happen less.
=*=Upon further analysis, there are situations upon which a down-throw will also lead to nothing as your opponent will have counter-options due to position. In this way follow-ups are not as safe.

=Getting the opponent offstage grants an opportunity to establish stage control.
*To avoid conflict with this notion, I must add that this tactic is heavily influenced upon the opposing character.
=Setting up gimping opportunities: from personal experience (limitation error) it is a mechanism of racking damage than assuming Olimar can gimp the other character’s recovery.
=->A comparison being Marth pressuring towards the ledge. While Marth excels in gimping, contrary to Olimar, he knows that even getting you to the edge is going to result in dealing damage.
=*= any damage given to the opponent as a result of them trying to get back is a follow-up from the forward-throw or back-throw.

Character dependancy variables: Take any character with limited recovery options or poor ledge-to-stage options. Using a forward-throw or back-throw to get them off stage is taking advantage of the opposing character’s weaknesses. In the end, is that not what the game is about?

Conditional Test: Consider the percent that foward-throw and back-throw will kill reliably.
=Reliably - estimating average directional influence kill percent. For forward-throw and back-throw, holding up and momentum canceling is basic reaction (assumption error).
=Assume playing text-book Olimar as IcyLight suggested.
=Even back-throwing a Marth around 80-90% leaves your throw fresh by KO percent.
=There are three character that tie with Marth and twenty that die later than Marth from a blue Pikmin back-throw.

Solution:
While down-throw should be Olimar’s go-to throwing option, there are other variables to be considered. Forward-throw and back-throw and just as viable but situational. Using forward-throw and back-throw can be beneficial given such situations while, for the most part, not having to worry about stale-moves.

I digress, this is theory crafting and opinion based. Varying error in logic is to be expected. This is more food for thought.

 

[Pyronic_Star]

thank you dite, for allowing me to be lazy, and thus i don't have to respond

 

[Noa.]

Dite, you can really say all that needs to be said.

Bthrow is most useful for breathing room against certain characters, and there are certain percents where followups on dthrow don't work, no matter how stale.

 

[RichBrown]

Ugh you guys don't get it

Dthrow gives you just as much breathing room as any of the other throws. You don't need that much time to think. Instead, you should be thinking about following up. If I wasn't so tired I'd go through and find all the examples of you guys where you wasted the throw, it either led to absolutely nothing or you got hit almost immediately after, and/or later in the match you used the throw, and it woulda killed had you not staled it.

Your theories sound good on paper, but are very impractical.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Agree with Rich. I cringe every time I see someone use a yellow/red/white back/forward throw. Follow ups don't just have to be immediately attacking the opponent right after the throw. Following their DI, punishing their approach, these are all ways to take advantage of the opponent being in the disadvantageous position of being forced to land. Backthrow has it's times, yes.

One that I like, that you missed Rich, was when you're facing a diddy that has bananas out, using a b/fthrow will get the diddy off stage long enough for you to get control over the bananas, while a dthrow will not, usually. The diddy will have to worry about getting back on stage while not being able to protect the bananas. If I need to use the throw for damage (if my dthrow is stale) I'll use uthrow. Yellow uthrow deals 11 damage which is much more than dthrow, uthrow kills are quite rare, most of the time. More so than back/forward throws at least.

Also, Olimar's juggle game and his ability to punish landings is incredible. Dthrow sets up for it amazingly well.

 

[o-Serin-o]

Fthrow exists for Olimar mains?

 

[IcyLight]

Fthrow exists for Olimar mains?

actually fthrow is one of my kill moves. also sets up for a pseudo combo

 

[o-Serin-o]

...Who lets you kill them with fthrow?

 

[RichBrown]

If you grab someone with a blue at the edge and immediately throw them before giving them a chance to properly DI, you can get a LOT of kills.

Hilt: I actually don't do that, but that's a great idea. Definitely a good time for those throws.

 

[IcyLight]

...Who lets you kill them with fthrow?

let's say you are versing someone who isn't snake or dk and live to 200%. You can fthrow them completely across the stage, and they will di into it and still die. They di that way ebcause they think you are going to bthrow off behind you, in which they would probably live. Can use uthrow the same way, and screw with them and get a kill

 

[RichBrown]

Oh, f and bthrow are **** against climbers

I actually use those throws almost exclusively

 

[Karcist]

...Who lets you kill them with fthrow?

Blue pikmin kills at reasonable percentages near the edge for f throw (150-ish)

 

[Today]

So is it better to f-throw/b-throw or d-thrown? I just d-thrown a lot, but Dite's statements makes sense..

 

[Noa.]

Sometimes in a match, Ill be doing extremely well. Then suddenly my opponent starts wrecking me. If I can land a grab, I bthrow or fthrow, so I can get a three second breather and put my head back on.

 

[IcyLight]

So is it better to f-throw/b-throw or d-thrown? I just d-thrown a lot, but Dite's statements makes sense..

completely situational.

 

[Today]

@Draco, I think I only did that once in my life of Olimar. I had a brain freeze so I fthrew/bthrew the character until I could concentrate right.. so yeah! Maybe I should do that more if I'm having little brain issues. But that normally doesn't happen since dthrow to whatever usually just auto happens.

 

[RichBrown]

You guys wanna know something hilarious

I played DEHF today, and he was beating me. I grabbed him with a yellow at the edge, and I accidentally Fthrew him. But because he was mashing to get out, he fastfalled a nair because yellows have no hitstun at all on their throws. He tried to upB back but he was too far away, and he died at 43%. I went on to win the match

I lost the set though, very close game 3 =(

 

[Today]

XD!! so I guess it has its good points!

 

[Noa.]

See, fthrow and bthrow are useable at low and mid percents.

It's all about the mindgames Rich.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

at certain percents dthrow will make them fly up high which will give u enough time to breathe and pluck pikmin if your low. Though it also really depends what stage your on. I know throw KOs arent that likely but you'll want to keep your number of killing options higher if your usual upsmash killing won't really work because of the high ceiling on certain stages.

 

[*_Echo_*]

i agree with rich. Dthrow and sometimes Upthrow sets up for more regarless of %. Its gets them in the air so u can A)Upair B) wait to punish their landing C) pluck pikmin and other things. I usually Dthrow for most of the match but if i grab with a purp or white i usually just Upthow and go for Upairs or piviot grabs and or if possible a Fair or Bair

 

[Tin Man]

Back and forward throw to get the opponent to the edge, and Uthrow for those weird combos.

 

[RichBrown]

I almost always use Uthrow if I latch a white on them at early percent. It's his longest lasting throw, so it gives the white more time to do damage.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

k, i dunno much at all about the ROB matchup but wouldn't upthrowing more often at around mid percents be better than dthrow since he ends up right above u and ROB can't do **** when he's above us. Aswell as what rich said, since ROB has a tough time getting rid of the pikmin already wouldn't upthrow with a pikmin get you some even more guaranteed damage?

 

[Zori]

What are you talking about, we want rob above us @-@

 

[BOB SAGET!]

Thats what i said.

 

[Zori]

i should never read amd drive again

 

[RichBrown]

Ok I take some of this back

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hbk9NaPJUFc

2:13

He bthrows the snake with a weak little yellow

and then the snake rolls back into him

He didn't punish the roll, but what he coulda done was do the Bthrow, walk forward a little to make it look like he was gonna do something, then charge a dsmash. omg **** I'm gonna look into this

Also, ya know how yellows have no hitstun on their throws? Use this on mashers when they are at the ledge, maybe you'll get lucky and they'll fastfall a nair like Larry did against me a couple weeks ago lol

OTHER THAN THAT DTHROW IS USUALLY THE BEST OPTION, I STILL SEE YOU GUYS USE THE OTHER THROWS FOR NO REASON!!!!

 

[Denti]

Im raging. up throw is our longest throw and it's our throw that does the most damage. i up throw when pikmin is all over my opponent because up throw gives more hit stun and a longer throw on your opponent so there is more time for the (preferably white) pikmin to deal damage. Plus it's predictable they're going to do an attack to get the pikmin off so punish with our priority attack Uair and after Uair you can up B.

if you stick a white pikmin on an opponent and grab them then pummel once (to hurt and make more time) then up throw at 0% they'll be at 50-60%, if you have a 2 whites and you do that, their past 100%. if you have 2 normal pikmin on them and pummel up throw you generally give 35-40%. plus their predictable as hell after that. am i the only olimar that does this? not to mention it helps keep **** fresh

I use back and forward throw to put my opponent on the stage in a much more pressured situation, but rarely i do this. It's MU dependent, damage dependent and stage dependent.

i f throw heavy characters (between 10-25%) into an f smash into a grab when i predict their going DI away from an expected down throw.
example: versus fox, falco, or wolf. if you grab them at 0% with a white blue or red pikmin you can down throw and re grab always, follow with F throw into f smash into grab into down throw and predicting someone after mind ****ing them like that is easy so follow up with. 70% combo, maybe even finish them from 0% to death


edit: F and B throw makes the ledge look attractive so with the MLG rule saying you can't grab the ledge more than 35 times or you lose the WHOLE match f and B throw start seeming like a good idea. it pressures well especially against falcos and marths who re grab the ledge several times when trying to get back on the stage VS olimar.

 

[Noa.]

I also use fthrow and bthrow against characters that have a hard time approaching and are at an uncomboable percent.

 

[Geddan]

how much hitstun does yellow uthrow do? yellow throws have no hit stun right?

 

[Hai Im Fearless]

I fthrow and bthrow at mid percents against snake if he's by the ledge because they always immediatly jump and try to nair and get put in a position where they can get spiked.

I'll use uthrow once in a while like when I have a few latched like the previous post said. If I have a yellow immediatly next after I throw, I'll usually up throw because it sets up a sick positioning on your yellow up air and leads to more combos.

 

[RichBrown]

Im raging. up throw is our longest throw and it's our throw that does the most damage. i up throw when pikmin is all over my opponent because up throw gives more hit stun and a longer throw on your opponent so there is more time for the (preferably white) pikmin to deal damage. Plus it's predictable they're going to do an attack to get the pikmin off so punish with our priority attack Uair and after Uair you can up B.

if you stick a white pikmin on an opponent and grab them then pummel once (to hurt and make more time) then up throw at 0% they'll be at 50-60%, if you have a 2 whites and you do that, their past 100%. if you have 2 normal pikmin on them and pummel up throw you generally give 35-40%. plus their predictable as hell after that. am i the only olimar that does this? not to mention it helps keep **** fresh

I use back and forward throw to put my opponent on the stage in a much more pressured situation, but rarely i do this. It's MU dependent, damage dependent and stage dependent.

i f throw heavy characters (between 10-25%) into an f smash into a grab when i predict their going DI away from an expected down throw.
example: versus fox, falco, or wolf. if you grab them at 0% with a white blue or red pikmin you can down throw and re grab always, follow with F throw into f smash into grab into down throw and predicting someone after mind ****ing them like that is easy so follow up with. 70% combo, maybe even finish them from 0% to death


edit: F and B throw makes the ledge look attractive so with the MLG rule saying you can't grab the ledge more than 35 times or you lose the WHOLE match f and B throw start seeming like a good idea. it pressures well especially against falcos and marths who re grab the ledge several times when trying to get back on the stage VS olimar.

I agree with Uthrowing if they have a butt**** of pikmin on them. Like I said before, I usually Uthrow if they have a white latched. They usually DI weird too so you can hit them again.

I disagree with pummeling when they have a white on them, because a good masher will break out instantly. Instead, if they are at low % I like to latch the white, then throw them immediately and fair them before the white has done a lot of damage. That way the white is doing damage all the way from the moment it latches, to when the hitstun wears off from the fair. Plus you get the fair damage. Way better than pummeling once, risking them breaking out, and then not being able to follow up.

If you're getting follow ups from Fthrow, your opponents must have poopoo DI. I was beating up a lvl 3 Falco for a while last night, and I was trying to follow up Fthrows, and nothing happens. It's much smarter do just use Dthrow, there are soooo many different combos you can do out of that already, there's no point in risking another throw that's too hard to follow up.

As for that ledge grab rule, 35 ledge grabs isn't a lot. So Cal has had a ledge grab rule for a very long time, and it doesn't scare any one. To this day I have yet to see someone lose a match due to the ledge grab rule.

And also, I have some videos posted recently where I use fthrow and bthrow sometimes, I just wanna say that most of those were mistakes, I was screwing up for some reason lol. Fearless, your tidbit about throwing snakes off the ledge then Fsmashing is real good. I do that too, and for some reason they almost always jump into it.