Multiple beams...?

[GeZ]

i'm curious too about the hitboxes of the ice beam attacks. supposedly d-tilt has a downward trajectory?

I used the Dtilt as a good ranged option on shield as it would push them too far away to punish. I can't remember the knockback of it though. The Fsmash throws them pretty far away unless both hits connect. Then it'll keep them pretty close to you.

 

[Obskore]

does anyone know if her high-jump still works like in Melee? (it's like an AGT without any item in hand, gaining upwards momentum while zair comes out)

 

[MonkUnit]

Yes, that still works as long as you're not close enough to a ledge to grapple to it.

 

[ph00tbag]

It's a fine analogy. Just because you don't like that you are analogous to the silly anti-text messenger does not make it wrong.

Sorry, but no. They're completely different contexts with totally different philosophical questions that need to be asked. I've set out the philosophical questions I would have asked by game designers when adding new mechanics. But when talking about about cell phone features, it's more important to ask questions about right to privacy and the commodification of personal data. That is a very different question from mine. Further, there are no winners or losers in the question of how a cell phone is used. There are cell phone users and there are cell phone users. Considering playing to win is a pretty major component of why I take issue with the "if you don't like it don't use it" argument, this contextual difference shoots a pretty huge hole in your analogy. I reject your analogy on this basis. It may convince others who are inclined to agree with you anyway, but when you write these posts, you set out to convince me of your correctness, not them. So you're going to have to do more than a one-sentence hand-wave.

I did read your post, and your logic is the only thing that's flawed. You choosing to play without the stance change has the exact same effect on how you play Samus as not having the stance change in the game at all. The only difference is that other people will have the choice to use the stance change in the former situatuion and not the latter. The fact that you might have some type of player's remorse over personally choosing not to use one of your character's options would be your issue and your issue alone.

But you're the one telling me I should underplay in the first place. It is you're issue, because you're the one who stipulated the situation. You, not I, said, "if you don't like it, don't use it." You created the hypothetical situation of me underplaying in a match I intended to win. My argument in my last post precludes your argument here, because I'm saying that "if you don't like it, don't use it," stipulates a lose-lose situation as the solution to taking issue with the change. On the other hand, if this had not been added, there would have been little, if any complaint--most people would not even know the mechanic had been considered.

For clarification purposes, I don't intend to use this tool ever. But I won't feel remorse for it, because I won't be trying to win with Samus, the same as I don't really give a **** if I win when I play Lucas or Lucario, because I think they possess stupid mechanics that were very irresponsibly added to the game, and I don't use those mechanics. What I do feel remorse for is that now I can't take my favorite character seriously, unless I also want to take Lucas and Lucario seriously. I'm now basically abandoning this character because of this change. And well, if people choosing to play one character or another is the sole measure of a character's success, then you can't really say that me picking a different character counts for nothing. Because it does; it counts for at least one lost Samus main--one who incidentally played her to the exclusion of all other characters in Melee. This is all true even if you exclude how upset am I about having to quit playing Samus seriously.

Strong Bad already said that her playstyle from Melee is completely preserved. This is not a change to how she fundamentally plays. This is an addition. There is a big difference between the two.

Strong Bad said no such thing. He said that Samus had no intended playstyle in Melee. I've already responded to that by suggesting that believing that would require me to take a lot of stock in the power of coincidence. In other words, I think that the confluence of footsie type moves and options in Samus's repertoire is just a bit too convenient for it to have been totally unintentional.

(For context, both Strong Bad and I agree that for all of Melee's strengths, there are some mechanics that are just plain dumb. SB takes this to it's logical extreme by stipulating that the devs for the game simply had no clue what anything they did would entail, and got lucky with about a 1:2 success ratio. I take a more moderate approach and say they had some idea of the fundamental concepts at play, but were only able to extrapolate so far, since something like this had literally never been done, so there was no data about what works and what doesn't.)

 

[Thor]

Sorry to be completely random, but I hope there's some way to switch beams in mid-air, maybe like aerial taunt or something, so that she might have a shot of changing beams in the heat of things by jumping away and taunting (or something like that). Of course they probably already balanced her knowing she won't get to change it except during a KO, after being KO'd, or else at an edgeguard time, but I hope the shift quicker than it looks right now, or else I might not switch beams more than like 3 times a battle.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

Sorry, but no. They're completely different contexts with totally different philosophical questions that need to be asked. I've set out the philosophical questions I would have asked by game designers when adding new mechanics. But when talking about about cell phone features, it's more important to ask questions about right to privacy and the commodification of personal data. That is a very different question from mine. Further, there are no winners or losers in the question of how a cell phone is used. There are cell phone users and there are cell phone users. Considering playing to win is a pretty major component of why I take issue with the "if you don't like it don't use it" argument, this contextual difference shoots a pretty huge hole in your analogy. I reject your analogy on this basis. It may convince others who are inclined to agree with you anyway, but when you write these posts, you set out to convince me of your correctness, not them. So you're going to have to do more than a one-sentence hand-wave.



But you're the one telling me I should underplay in the first place. It is you're issue, because you're the one who stipulated the situation. You, not I, said, "if you don't like it, don't use it." You created the hypothetical situation of me underplaying in a match I intended to win. My argument in my last post precludes your argument here, because I'm saying that "if you don't like it, don't use it," stipulates a lose-lose situation as the solution to taking issue with the change. On the other hand, if this had not been added, there would have been little, if any complaint--most people would not even know the mechanic had been considered.

For clarification purposes, I don't intend to use this tool ever. But I won't feel remorse for it, because I won't be trying to win with Samus, the same as I don't really give a **** if I win when I play Lucas or Lucario, because I think they possess stupid mechanics that were very irresponsibly added to the game, and I don't use those mechanics. What I do feel remorse for is that now I can't take my favorite character seriously, unless I also want to take Lucas and Lucario seriously. I'm now basically abandoning this character because of this change. And well, if people choosing to play one character or another is the sole measure of a character's success, then you can't really say that me picking a different character counts for nothing. Because it does; it counts for at least one lost Samus main--one who incidentally played her to the exclusion of all other characters in Melee. This is all true even if you exclude how upset am I about having to quit playing Samus seriously.



Strong Bad said no such thing. He said that Samus had no intended playstyle in Melee. I've already responded to that by suggesting that believing that would require me to take a lot of stock in the power of coincidence. In other words, I think that the confluence of footsie type moves and options in Samus's repertoire is just a bit too convenient for it to have been totally unintentional.

(For context, both Strong Bad and I agree that for all of Melee's strengths, there are some mechanics that are just plain dumb. SB takes this to it's logical extreme by stipulating that the devs for the game simply had no clue what anything they did would entail, and got lucky with about a 1:2 success ratio. I take a more moderate approach and say they had some idea of the fundamental concepts at play, but were only able to extrapolate so far, since something like this had literally never been done, so there was no data about what works and what doesn't.)

As a Lucario and Lucas main I can`t agree with you that their mechanics are stupid but I can see why you would feel that way about them. I feel that if you really like how Samus plays, then you shouldn`t let one small change 180 your opinion. Why don`t you just try out this new mechanic and see if you do like it? I don`t see why your just going to throw away your favorite character over a mechanic that you haven`t even gotten your hands on yet. Just play some matches with Samus and if you find that you like this change, good for you. If you find that you hate this change, good for you. I`m not going to go on a tangent on if this change is good or bad because in the end that`s up to personal opinion.

 

[Burning Boom]

Strong Bad said no such thing. He said that Samus had no intended playstyle in Melee. I've already responded to that by suggesting that believing that would require me to take a lot of stock in the power of coincidence. In other words, I think that the confluence of footsie type moves and options in Samus's repertoire is just a bit too convenient for it to have been totally unintentional.

(For context, both Strong Bad and I agree that for all of Melee's strengths, there are some mechanics that are just plain dumb. SB takes this to it's logical extreme by stipulating that the devs for the game simply had no clue what anything they did would entail, and got lucky with about a 1:2 success ratio. I take a more moderate approach and say they had some idea of the fundamental concepts at play, but were only able to extrapolate so far, since something like this had literally never been done, so there was no data about what works and what doesn't.)

Actually, I disagree with both of you in regards to the intentions of Samus's moveset. If you look at most of the trophy info on Samus, where you could see the devs trying to tell players what they assumed the character would play like, there's a lot of focus on her projecties. They tended to stress them as an important part of her game, and selling Samus as a campy/zoning character. From this perspective, it can be guessed that most of her close range attacks are "get off me" or escape moves. They have low-end lag, so Samus has time to escape (remember, they had no idea how deep comboing or the offensive Melee game in general would get), have decent knockback, and keep the opponent stunned for a bit. Many of these moves were probably just added to give Samus a chance to retreat, the playstyle that developed out of these attacks was just another example of the competitive community finding a better use for tools than the designers intended.

 

[ph00tbag]

I've already outlined why I don't think this change is all that small; it shifts the focus of the player from spacing and poke options to what tools are available based on the stance. I've also already written about why it doesn't really matter whether I enjoy the change; I find the change to be incompatible with my feelings on what makes a character feel professionally designed.

(It goes into why I find Lucas's JC Magnet and Lucario's OHC to be stupid; they aren't functionally bad mechanics, and they've overall been popular, but the changes they've incurred in both characters playstyles have been detrimental to certain aspects of the characters. In Lucas's case, he feels less unique because he has a Spacie tool, so his playstyle actually coincides with a lot of Spacie playstyle concepts. In Lucario's case, I think he just doesn't feel like a smash character at all, and he really doesn't even feel like a Street Fighter character--he feels like a Marvel character, which is something no serious fighting game designer should aspire to.)

Actually, I disagree with both of you in regards to the intentions of Samus's moveset. If you look at most of the trophy info on Samus, where you could see the devs trying to tell players what they assumed the character would play like, there's a lot of focus on her projecties. They tended to stress them as an important part of her game, and selling Samus as a campy/zoning character. From this perspective, it can be guessed that most of her close range attacks are "get off me" or escape moves. They have low-end lag, so Samus has time to escape (remember, they had no idea how deep comboing or the offensive Melee game in general would get), have decent knockback, and keep the opponent stunned for a bit. Many of these moves were probably just added to give Samus a chance to retreat, the playstyle that developed out of these attacks was just another example of the competitive community finding a better use for tools than the designers intended.

Fair enough. But for what it's worth, camping and zoning with projectiles are actually extremely effective strategies against a lot of characters, so it's not like those intended properties didn't play out.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

In Lucario's case, I think he just doesn't feel like a smash character at all, and he really doesn't even feel like a Street Fighter character--he feels like a Marvel character, which is something no serious fighting game designer should aspire to.)

Agreed, especially that last part.

 

[GeZ]

ANY OTHER CONVERSATION. THIS IS GETTING NOWHERE SO WE SHOULD START ANY OTHER CONVERSATION. Pretty please?

 

[Burning Boom]

ANY OTHER CONVERSATION. THIS IS GETTING NOWHERE SO WE SHOULD START ANY OTHER CONVERSATION. Pretty please?

Do you guys think Samus would read: A Song of Ice and Fire?

 

[Thor]

he feels like a Marvel character

WHAT'S NOT FANTASTIC ABOUT BEING THIS AWESOME? (trollollollol)

Soooooo... other conversations... aerial taunting please? Would love to shift beams while retreating or if I've almost been KO'd off the top (can jump and taunt to switch the beams). Anybody agree?

 

[Burning Boom]

WHAT'S NOT FANTASTIC ABOUT BEING THIS AWESOME? (trollollollol)

Soooooo... other conversations... aerial taunting please? Would love to shift beams while retreating or if I've almost been KO'd off the top (can jump and taunt to switch the beams). Anybody agree?

I think it'd be cool, and would hopefully give you more freedom on when you want to leave yourself very vulnerable.

 

[Shadic]

Yeah, I'm just gonna have to say.

Please stop the massive tangent of "ph00t vs. everybody who disagrees with him," because it's really gotten old. Clearly he dislikes it and will continue to do so no matter what you say.

Any continuation of this stubborn conversation is gonna result in mean moderation action.

Carry on.

 

[GeZ]

WHAT'S NOT FANTASTIC ABOUT BEING THIS AWESOME? (trollollollol)

Soooooo... other conversations... aerial taunting please? Would love to shift beams while retreating or if I've almost been KO'd off the top (can jump and taunt to switch the beams). Anybody agree?

Air taunt has never been a thing, and will never be a thing. The stance change is cancellable on an edge, which is good enough. It's supposed to be a utility tool that takes a second to get activated. Making it aerial wouldn't serve any purpose because you couldn't keep a combo/ harass going by virtue of its long startup and cooldown. It's good as it is right now, we should discuss the uses of each stance and what situations they flourish in.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Please stop

Carry on.

you're playin' with mah heart shadic

 

[roymaster803]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRY-ZeY8Tjs Notice the missiles, The "ice" super missiles don't freeze but have a much more forward angle. Looks like they will be great for sniping.

 

[KariteSama]

i'm curious too about the hitboxes of the ice beam attacks. supposedly d-tilt has a downward trajectory?

Does that mean d-tilt could be used similarly to foxes shine in terms of ledgeguarding options? obviously onstage but still. Sounds like easy kills on C.Falcon to me.

Also, will there be a way to start matches with the ice beam? O.o

 

[drsusredfish]

This may be slightly off topic but this question doesn't need a whole new thread.
Why does Samus have that little jumping side step as her roll? Couldn't she have the same backflip roll animation as Zero Suit Samus? I mean that would pay more homage to other M and it would look more like something a newer samus would do. I mean it is still Zero Suit samus in the suit so the back flip would also link to that fact. The side step roll just doesn't look satisfying to see.

 

[Obskore]

Her new roll is based in Metroid Prime's Scan-Dash (which can be seen from a second-third perspective in Metroid Prime 2)
it's said that samus had a sense-move dodge in earlier builds, but now we see she doesn't (still, she seems to have a new victory animation based on that sense-move, striking a pose known from Other M at the end)
still, a Zamus roll would look "too much" for her heavy armor imo

 

[ph00tbag]

Samus is more agile with her armor on than off.

I'm not really sure why the Metroid Prime dash was used instead of Sense Move. The latter is so much more fluid and cool looking. She looks way too robotic now.

 

[Burning Boom]

Samus is more agile with her armor on than off.

I'm not really sure why the Metroid Prime dash was used instead of Sense Move. The latter is so much more fluid and cool looking. She looks way too robotic now.

If I recall correctly, perhaps I'm wrong, the suit doesn't increase her flexibility, it just doesn't limit it much, and she has a higher jump due to (insert technobabble here). If her mobility was only increased by the suit, I think that she would be able to actually crawl in it (don't ask me to explain the morph ball).

 

[ph00tbag]

She can crawl, technically. But the morph ball is more mobile, and can drop bombs. It's clearly superior.

As far as mobility and such, given that the suit is a construct of Samus's will, it kinda lets her do just about anything she needs it to, as long as the software exists to manifest the ability.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

She can crawl, technically. But the morph ball is more mobile, and can drop bombs. It's clearly superior.

As far as mobility and such, given that the suit is a construct of Samus's will, it kinda lets her do just about anything she needs it to, as long as the software exists to manifest the ability.

 

[MVP]

the problem with that video is it doesn't adress all her samus' abilities in morph ball state.

-boost ball
-morph ball bombs
-she moves faster in morph ball state then walking/running
-power bombs

plus they don't show clips from metroid prime: corruption, or metroid hunters where the size is clearly shown in comparision to other hunters.

Morph ball is clearly far supiror then her crawling.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

-morph ball bombs
-power bombs

Couldn`t she? Oh I don`t know, throw those?

-she moves faster in morph ball state then walking/running

Yes, but the morph ball is primarily used to fit through small places as curling up in a ball won`t do you much good in the heat of battle, crawling would be much, MUCH, more effective but the only possible comparison you can make between crawling and balling is Project M 3.0 so we`ll just have to keep our photoshops on stand-by until December 9th.

 

[MVP]

i personally believe that samus' morph ball is suppose to be intended as it will be in PM3.0. Where she can use it in the heat of battle for mobility and positioning and using bombs for damage/confusion.

Samus in 3.0 will be heaven for me

EDIT: pretty much everything i wanted and suggested for samus since smashmods.com the PMBR have implimented into 3.0

i'm so happy

 

[ph00tbag]

Asinine pontificating video.

Yes, because Samus would move faster crawling on her belly than she would in the morph ball.

Really that video is more about why it's actually not that impressive how Samus fits in it. And he has a point--fitting in the morph ball is not that difficult. He doesn't really address how she avoids motion sickness from all that rolling around, though, or whether her abilities in the morph ball are superior to crawling.

 

[Strong Badam]

Been kinda busy with releasing PM but FWIW I never stated that Melee was a complete accident. Since like 2010 I've held the belief that Melee had a pretty solid direction behind its design, although some characters felt that more than others, Samus not being one of them.

 

[The Depths]

^Agreed. I also just wanted to say that I can definitely relate to ph00ts sentiments at some level. As a melee samus player, I feel she has definitely gone in a different direction than a "footsies" character. Samus was a very....unique character in melee (mostly having to do with her feeling somewhat imcomplete), with a cognitive and intuitive playstyle that fit a particular niche within how the game is played. She operates at a different pace from other Melee characters, are I actually think a lot of samus players enjoy her limited tools to some degree because they facilitate a style that is largely based completely off of fundamentals and good spacing. A part of me doesn't like these new changes because while they undeniably improve samus and add depth, they don't really expand on what was already samus and what I feel samus play "should" be. That being said, these feelings are all products of my personal attachments to Melee Samus. I'm not saying that the changes are "good" or "bad", just that they may be unappealing to samus players who share similar sentiments in regards to how they feel the character should play. Whatever the case, I'm still really looking forward to getting to play Samus in PM for the first time today. Buffed Samus still has all the old stuff we loved about her, and honestly I'm just glad she has a new roll That was literally all it took to sell me on her. I do believe its rather early to criticize the changes though, because we can only speculate as to how they will impact her. For all I know, samus may very well play a lot like Melee, and these changes may do nothing but help us play the old style that we've come to admire.

Aaaaaanyway, does anyone know what buffs she got to her old moves? All I really know is that she has a new roll and new fsmash hitbox? Were any of her other ground moves tweaked? (not including new moves of course)

 

[Naraku]

What is the difference between normal Missie and Ice Missie other then appearance?

 

[cmart]

Ice smash missiles accelerate faster, have a lower top speed, expire faster, have significantly more hitlag and are notably less powerful
Ice homing missiles never decelerate, stop homing, or expire, and hit twice for more damage and hitlag.

These sentences were atrocious.