Multiple beams...?

[PastLink]

I'll give you the aura taunt since it also affects multiple moves, but it's to a much smaller degree than Samus's. You need to use it multiple times to gain an aura charge. Also, neither his nor Tink's taunts can be taunt-cancelled to gain their effects. Luigi and Snake's are situational attacks. Samus's changes 4 moves.

Not that I think she should lose the taunt cancel, I think it's amazing. It's just rather odd to have a taunt have that much of an effect on a moveset, that's all.

well it was either that, or get rid of a special move.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

just adding what i've discovered to this list since i played around with it. but here we go
luigi: you all already know this one.
zelda: that ball of fire she holds in her hand? yeah it's a hit box
bowser: when he does all those bites? 20 % damage
Tink: his wind waker music taunt has a VERY small push back when it makes the noise, and they have to be standing right next to you, so it's useless, period, i even tried to see if it would push someone off the ledge if they were holding it, nothing.
snake: the box has a hitbox and clashes with projectiles once he throws it off. if you wanna troll it could be used for gimping at the edge of a stage

adding to the list:
Mario: his taunt where he plays with a fire ball in his hand, it has a hitbox.

 

[PastLink]

adding to the list:
Mario: his taunt where he plays with a fire ball in his hand, it has a hitbox.

ok THAT one i didn't know

 

[Vashimus]

Are we seriously comparing Samus' ice beam change taunt to other taunts' affects? Because they really aren't comparable.

Imagine if you took Ganon's sword taunt and instead of him putting it away, you go into sword mode, and he uses the sword for his fair, down tilt, forward smash, and up smash, changing their properties. It's canon because he uses the sword in Twilight Princess, so why not give him the option of switching between his sword and his fists, right? Anybody can say "it gives him more options and adds to his gameplay, so it's perfectly fine". The question being posed is, is it something really necessary to be added and is it right for Ganon in the long run?

 

[ph00tbag]

You do not like the stance change because you feel it takes focus from the rest of her game and is unnecessary. I feel that [it] ... gives her meta more depth and strengthens her options in some situations.

When it comes down to it, taking any subjective terms out of it, you've pretty much nailed it. I guess we can agree to disagree. But when it comes down to it, I reserve the right to say it's the height of stupidity. To the point where I certainly won't be playing Samus seriously, and that's the thing that frustrates me the most, because up until a few months back, when I first heard that they were messing around with the change, I was really excited about all of the things Samus was getting.

Edit: Oh Vash, now here we are right back at the beginning. For what it's worth, I certainly agree with you.

 

[Burning Boom]

The reason I'd say it won't be super useful is because competitively, the only edge it would give you is making your opponent adjust to the new character. If ZSS does better in a certain match up, then you would just pick her. Same goes for Samus. Switching would simply force your opponent to figure out how to deal with your interactions with your character again, rather than give you any inherent advantage you wouldn't otherwise have by just picking the other Samus. On top of that, I don't see it being used much in competitive play anyway, because the advantage it gains you is very meta, and would take a very smart player to implement it as I've stated.

Well, if they're matchups are very different, it could lead to mid-match counter-picking. Ie.
1. Start of set (character strong against S but weak against ZSS (1)) vs. ZSS ZSS wins
2. The first guy switches to someone strong against ZSS, weak against Samus (2) vs. ZSS ZSS player switches to Samus mid-match, giving him a big advantage, allowing him to take the match and set.

 

[GeZ]

When it comes down to it, taking any subjective terms out of it, you've pretty much nailed it. I guess we can agree to disagree. But when it comes down to it, I reserve the right to say it's the height of stupidity. To the point where I certainly won't be playing Samus seriously, and that's the thing that frustrates me the most, because up until a few months back, when I first heard that they were messing around with the change, I was really excited about all of the things Samus was getting.

Edit: Oh Vash, now here we are right back at the beginning. For what it's worth, I certainly agree with you.

Well I'm sorry about that man. For all that's been said, I'd hate to have a character I like changed into some iteration that was undesirable to me. Hope you end up unexpectedly surprised and end up liking her again.

Well, if they're matchups are very different, it could lead to mid-match counter-picking. Ie.
1. Start of set (character strong against S but weak against ZSS (1)) vs. ZSS ZSS wins
2. The first guy switches to someone strong against ZSS, weak against Samus (2) vs. ZSS ZSS player switches to Samus mid-match, giving him a big advantage, allowing him to take the match and set.

I thought about that though and I'd guess their matchups cross over a lot just because they're both pretty campy/ spacing dependent.

 

[Deleted member]

I reserve the right to say it's the height of stupidity. To the point where I certainly won't be playing Samus seriously

So despite the fact that she retains all of her Melee attributes and you can probably play her just as you did in Melee, you're going to stop playing her because they added something completely optional, i.e. you never, ever have to use it, to her moveset. Whatever man. You're reserving the right to be irrational. Pat yourself on the back.

And referring to it as "the height of stupidity" is laughable hyperbole. Despite the fact that PM was designed around competitive play, this is still a video game featuring Nintendo's all-stars. Many people want their characters to pay as much homage as possible to the original franchise, and in her games, Samus has a much more varied array of weapons including ice attacks, so trying to find a creative way to incorporate that into her moveset is far from "stupid."

Since you've already made up your mind about this character (even though 3.0 hasn't even been released yet), why don't you stop trying to rain on everybody else's parade and leave already.

 

[GeZ]

So despite the fact that she retains all of her Melee attributes and you can probably play her just as you did in Melee, you're going to stop playing her because they added something completely optional, i.e. you never, ever have to use it, to her moveset. Whatever man. You're reserving the right to be irrational. Pat yourself on the back.

And referring to it as "the height of stupidity" is laughable hyperbole. Despite the fact that PM was designed around competitive play, this is still a video game featuring Nintendo's all-stars. Many people want their characters to pay as much homage as possible to the original franchise, and in her games, Samus has a much more varied array of weapons including ice attacks, so trying to find a creative way to incorporate that into her moveset is far from "stupid."

Since you've already made up your mind about this character (even though 3.0 hasn't even been released yet), why don't you stop trying to rain on everybody else's parade and leave already.

Lets not be harsh dude, Phootbag is just voicing opinions over the state of the changes. And referring to the beam switching to the height of stupidity is from a metagame perspective versus a cannonic perspective.
The arguments about the impact on the meta are valid and I think it was good to hash out that conversation here. It let people discuss an issue some players are split on and everyone (not including myself in one instance) handled it in a pretty civil manner. In the spirit of keeping it that way, don't make heavy handed toxic posts without fully understanding the conversation.

 

[Deleted member]

I find referring to it as "the height of stupidity" to be insulting as well as lacking any concrete evidence considering 3.0 isn't released yet. How anybody could possibly make such an extreme accusation at this point in time is beyond me. That, to me, is toxic.

And the "I'm not going to play her anymore cuz I don't like this one thing" statement is, in fact, irrational. If Samus can do all the things she could do in Melee and retained her playstyle, why can't he just not press the taunt button and use her exactly like Melee Samus? That would be like me saying I'm not playing Zelda anymore because I don't like the fact that she can transform into Sheik, even though I can (and do) just ignore Sheik by never pressing Down B.

I do fully understand the conversation, and silly hyperbole doesn't contribute to the conversation at all.

 

[GeZ]

I find referring to it as "the height of stupidity" to be insulting as well as lacking any concrete evidence considering 3.0 isn't released yet. How anybody could possibly make such an extreme accusation at this point in time is beyond me. That, to me, is toxic.

And the "I'm not going to play her anymore cuz I don't like this one thing" statement is, in fact, irrational. If Samus can do all the things she could do in Melee and retained her playstyle, why can't he just not press the taunt button? That would be like me saying I'm not playing Zelda anymore because I don't like the fact that she can transform into Sheik, even though I can (and do) just ignore Sheik by never pressing Down B.

I do fully understand the conversation, and silly hyperbole doesn't contribute to the conversation at all.

A lot of people have played the current build early or played earlier builds where they were testing these features and have a grasp on them already based on that.
I thought of that too, but it's more that Ice has become a core part of Samus' game. It gives her tools that she needs. You couldn't not play with it because, unlike Zelda and Shiek, the character is being balanced around all of her tools, and not playing with it would leave you handicapped.

 

[Deleted member]

It can only be a core part of her game if they choose to use it. By not using the taunt button, you're left with an improved Melee Samus with no ice attacks. If people loved Melee Samus so much, then there is no reason why they should have a problem with not using the taunt.

 

[KariteSama]

It can only be a core part of her game if they choose to use it. By not using the taunt button, you're left with an improved Melee Samus with no ice attacks. If people loved Melee Samus so much, then there is no reason why they should have a problem with not using the taunt.

The point is without the ice attacks Samus is still left with attacks that are simply not viable with Fair and Usmash. They gave her other buff but the main adjustment to make her competitive is the ice attacks and that just goes contrary to what the character was in melee. She is probably going to be viable now but she also could have remained viable to without such a significant change.

However, I think there is another aspect to this that has been overlooked. I get that people who loved Samus in melee may be upset by this partly because of how much work the put into the character. Personally, I would never do more than troll people with Samus in melee because she just didn't click with me. I think this change has potential to make her a much more accessible character for A.) people who don't play competitively and B.) people who want to use her as a secondary but may not have the time to put into her that is needed to make her tournament viable.

I think its a give and take and frankly PMBR can't please everyone! Every decision they make is bound to upset someone so they went with the choice that they thought would be best for more people. It sucks though for anyone who played her competitively before though but hey, maybe she will still be a great character you can fall in love with again. I wouldn't want to just give up on her personally but that's just me.

 

[Deleted member]

The point is without the ice attacks Samus is still left with attacks that are simply not viable with Fair and Usmash.

Fair had some use, and I doubt they allowed Usmash to remain in its ridiculously terrible Melee state.
But even if they didn't do anything to those moves, the people who are upset about the ice attacks should be happy about that! She retained her Melee attacks.

They gave her other buff but the main adjustment to make her competitive is the ice attacks and that just goes contrary to what the character was in melee. She is probably going to be viable now but she also could have remained viable to without such a significant change.

I would consider the ice attacks to be more of an addition rather than a "change" since they don't take away anything from the character. She has all of her Melee stuff (barring being able to tether to walls and extended grapple, but those weren't going to be in 3.0 regardless), so I don't see how any of this goes contrary to what she was in Melee considering she has all the same attacks and attributes.

On the topic of things she received to keep her competitive, ice attacks aren't the only things that were done to her. She has Brawl Zair. She can crawl. She has a crawl attack. She can charge the Charge Shot in the air. Her Fsmash might have increased range thanks to the explosion. She has better rolls. Plus I'm sure some of her other attacks were tweaked to function better. Those are some nice buffs to a character who wasn't considered awful in Melee.
...Hmm, sounds like if they just ignore that one taunt, they'll actually be playing a superior version of Melee Samus, which is what they wanted, right? What's the problem again?

Unless somebody wants to argue that the ice attacks will make her OP, which nobody could possibly know yet and which I personally doubt will be the case, or argue that without using the ice attacks she'll be unviable, which again I personally doubt, I'm not seeing any validity to the complaints in this thread.

 

[MVP]

Remember when metakinght was released? everyone was like "meta sucks" "buff Meta". now the opinion is much different. When the metagame developed, he's now contending in the high tier category.

 

[KariteSama]

I would consider the ice attacks to be more of an addition rather than a "change"

I feel like this is the core of the argument and honestly I don't think we can know until its released.

 

[ph00tbag]

So despite the fact that she retains all of her Melee attributes and you can probably play her just as you did in Melee, you're going to stop playing her because they added something completely optional, i.e. you never, ever have to use it, to her moveset. Whatever man. You're reserving the right to be irrational. Pat yourself on the back.

If it turns out this winds up having even the remotest impact on successful Samus play, then I'd be doing myself a competitive disservice by not using this tool. On the other hand, using this tool would be an implicit endorsement of its implementation. So playing her when I intend to play my best is a philosophical catch 22. I'd rather focus on playing my best with a character that I think was given more responsible thought, like ZSS.

And referring to it as "the height of stupidity" is laughable hyperbole. Despite the fact that PM was designed around competitive play, this is still a video game featuring Nintendo's all-stars. Many people want their characters to pay as much homage as possible to the original franchise, and in her games, Samus has a much more varied array of weapons including ice attacks, so trying to find a creative way to incorporate that into her moveset is far from "stupid."

Samus can actually switch beams in only 3 of her nine games. Only in two of them is that function a requisite gameplay mechanic to master, and those two games aren't even strictly speaking canon, and even then only in one of them did the switching mechanic actually matter in end-game combat. In the first two games of the series, she can only change her beam by having to literally go out and re-find them in the world.

Beam switching is a niche property of Samus's toolset in her games. In most games, including one (two if you count the Annihilator as a stacked beam) of the three where she can switch, stacking is actually the preferred implementation of the tool. The "game reference" argument is somewhat lost in this sense.

Since you've already made up your mind about this character (even though 3.0 hasn't even been released yet), why don't you stop trying to rain on everybody else's parade and leave already.

Why don't you man up and learn to read an opposing viewpoint without just telling them to leave. I want the PMBR know I think they've ****ed up. This is the venue where I can do that. What good is this forum if no one can let the devs know what they think? By no means should this forum ever become a place for P:M sycophants to drool mindlessly over the game. Stern critique ought to be welcomed, not spurned.

 

[GeZ]

I agree with that. I don't think the P:M team ****ed up but I definitely think these forums shouldn't become a dwelling of soulless vapid agreement masturbation.

 

[MVP]

I agree with that. I don't think the P:M team ****ed up but I definitely think these forums shouldn't become a dwelling of soulless vapid agreement masturbation.

i also agree. but i think we all can express our opinions without unnecessary negative comments.

 

[Deleted member]

Why don't you man up and learn to read an opposing viewpoint without just telling them to leave. I want the PMBR know I think they've ****ed up.

I admittedly shouldn't have made that statement, and for that I apologize. However, I will say that I find it to be obnoxious how you've managed to formulate such a staunch opinion on something that hasn't even been officially released yet, something that also just so happens to be the generator of much excitement. Frankly, it comes off as if you are afraid of the idea that this might actually be an interesting, positive addition to her moveset in the long run.

Samus was far from perfect in Melee. The reason she was so high on the tier list had less to do with her actually being a great character and more to do with everybody else simply being bad. I think there's a lot of room for experimentation. Just because she was passable in Melee does not mean that she should be forced to follow a strict blueprint. This incarnation of Samus looks as if she will play the same as Melee, but with another option at her disposal. If you hate that option so much, you should be willing to just not use it (leaving you with a perfectly usable, improved version of Melee Samus) instead of attempting to get it removed from everybody else's game. If she retains the same Melee playstyle and isn't overpowered, what reason could you possible have (other than fear of change) for this not to be included?

 

[DrinkingFood]

these forums shouldn't become a dwelling of soulless vapid agreement masturbation.

I agree with that.

i also agree.

why is that so ****ing funny

 

[ph00tbag]

However, I will say that I find it to be obnoxious how you've managed to formulate such a staunch opinion on something that hasn't even been officially released yet, something that also just so happens to be the generator of much excitement. Frankly, it comes off as if you are afraid of the idea that this might actually be an interesting, positive addition to her moveset in the long run.

Because mine is a philosophical disagreement rather than a functional one. If you're going to give a stance change mechanic to a footsies/zoning character that has never been balanced around a stance change, and who has a very robust gameplan to start with, then you need a much better reason than "it's what the people want." This argument has nothing to do with whether Samus will be good or not. This is about what it means to play Samus on a fundamental level, and I'm saying this has nothing to do with that. I'm all for making Samus better--but how that's done is just as important as getting it done.

 

[Qzzy]

I also don't trust whether the beam change is completely optional. If it were completely optional, we could very well say it's unnecessary... But if it's something that's considered a real part of her tools, like ph00tbag said, we can't just play her like her melee self and expect to play her optimally. It'd be like refusing to use missles or up-B, since they're usage is also optional.

 

[U+5384]

Samus's up-smash does not give Samus any upward KO ability, but at the same time is useful for comboing. Changing it to have more KO ability would sacrifice its ability to continue combos, but keeping it the same would leave Samus without the ability to KO upwards. Therefore, I see the addition of the stance change system as a logical third option, as it allows the preservation of the old abilities while still giving Samus an improved array of options.

From what I've seen, the extra knockback in ice mode may be used for easier KOs, but at the same time, it may be used for a better keep away game that befits a zoning character. (Theory crafting: ) Since Ice!D-tilt knocks opponents horizontally, it can be easily followed up with a super missile, or it may be used to pressure/punish by knocking opponents into an already fired super missile, or even on a platform, a homing missile followed by a drop-down super missile. One thing I have noticed is that super missiles completely miss short characters, and Fire!U-smash (most likely) completely misses them on ground. Ice!U-Smash is a scoop from the feet up, meaning that it can hit shorties, which may be used in conjunction with a DACUS as a punish for ducking a super missile (or maybe scoop them into said super missile). So logically, Samus does not have to be balanced around the stance system if the stance system is already balanced around Samus.

But then again, I have no Smash experience whatsoever, nor have I even played Project M yet, so if it appears I have no idea what I'm saying, I apologise. *bows deeply*

Lastly, I would like to ask, is it possible to crawl-tilt during a SWD? I can foresee its usage for some momentum mind games.

 

[GeZ]

why is that so ****ing funny

Eh, I feel like we were being agreeable in that instant, and not what my aforementioned post was depicting, though I do see and appreciate the irony.

 

[Deleted member]

This is about what it means to play Samus on a fundamental level, and I'm saying this has nothing to do with that.

First you say that what the people want is irrelevant, and then you make a statement like this. If we took a poll and the majority of people wanted to find a way to incorporate the stance change into her game, then how can you possibly say that that shouldn't be taken into consideration when deciding how she plays on a fundamental level? Why should only you and the people who agree with you get to decide how Samus should be played? Your argument basically boils down to "I don't think that's how Samus should be played, and therefore nobody else should be allowed to play her that way either. Also, my argument is more valid even though I may be in the minority because Samus couldn't do that in Melee."

...Or they could make everybody happy and include the stance change. The people who want to use it can, and the people who don't want to use it don't.

The position you're taking is like an older individual buying a cell phone, but they don't agree with the ability to text because it goes against how they believe a phone should be fundamentally used. "That's not the way phones worked back in the day - phones are meant for talking, not writing messages!" And then instead of just using the phone how they want and ignoring the feature they don't like, leaving them with a still perfectly usable product, they start a petition to remove the ability to text from all cell phones.

 

[Vashimus]

Remember when metakinght was released? everyone was like "meta sucks" "buff Meta". now the opinion is much different. When the metagame developed, he's now contending in the high tier category.

I don't remember anyone here saying Meta Knight was terrible on release, and most people considered him really good from the get-go. Unless you're going off Youtube comments from random casuals.

 

[abcool]

As a Samus main in Melee, I also have to agree with Phoot. When I saw the trailer and saw Samus I didn't get hyped. She isn't what she used to be in Melee and everyone that keeps saying barely viable....Hugs, Plup and Duck aren't beating good players because they are better than them, it's because Samus had tools that were viable and useful. Every weakness she had in Melee were already buffed in PM even without the Beam change. New roll, better fair/upair and usmash. I even heard a slightly bigger SWD window (2-frames). I'll just use someone else in P:M and let all the scrubs that couldn't use her in Melee finally use in P:M and just exploit her air mobility like they tried to do to me. Sweet, sweet revenge.

 

[KariteSama]

I don't remember anyone here saying Meta Knight was terrible on release, and most people considered him really good from the get-go. Unless you're going off Youtube comments from random casuals.

I thought Meta Knight was terrible...now I feel dumb...

 

[Strong Badam]

Because mine is a philosophical disagreement rather than a functional one. If you're going to give a stance change mechanic to a footsies/zoning character that has never been balanced around a stance change, and who has a very robust gameplan to start with, then you need a much better reason than "it's what the people want." This argument has nothing to do with whether Samus will be good or not. This is about what it means to play Samus on a fundamental level, and I'm saying this has nothing to do with that. I'm all for making Samus better--but how that's done is just as important as getting it done.

I don't mean to get involved in this discussion by any means, but I'd just like to point out that Samus, until Project M 3.0, has literally never been intentionally balanced around anything, stance change or not. Her playstyle in Melee wasn't designed, it was simply a culmination of quick, low endlag attacks that have relatively low reward on a heavy character who (comparatively) isn't punished very hard for getting hit. Her PM playstyle is designed to incorporate everything that made Melee Samus attractive to her mains and then some, including the stance change system. Sorry you don't like one or two of those ideas, but that's just inevitable.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

As a Samus main in Melee, I also have to agree with Phoot. When I saw the trailer and saw Samus I didn't get hyped. She isn't what she used to be in Melee and everyone that keeps saying barely viable....Hugs, Plup and Duck aren't beating good players because they are better than them, it's because Samus had tools that were viable and useful. Every weakness she had in Melee were already buffed in PM even without the Beam change. New roll, better fair/upair and usmash. I even heard a slightly bigger SWD window (2-frames). I'll just use someone else in P:M and let all the scrubs that couldn't use her in Melee finally use in P:M and just exploit her air mobility like they tried to do to me. Sweet, sweet revenge.

no offense dude, but when i think of those players (and any other non-top tier player) i truly believe its the other way around, as in, they win bc of thier skill and their expertise in their character, they simply have to fight an uphill battle compared to lets say m2k using shiek

i mean, thats like saying gimpyfish has won not bc of him using a (crappy) character to its full potential but instead the character has tools to that were viable and useful

in regards to samus, i just don't understand, i just don't

you as a player DO NOT have to change to the ice stance, you do not have to do this. EVER. Just use her how you normally would, but BETTER

 

[abcool]

An some people like the game that way, not every character is meant to be the best at everything, it detracts away from being THAT player that makes it happen. Imagine if Armada never went to the USA and never won with Peach at events, people would still think she was a scrub character. Sometimes it takes certain players to bring out a characters true potential. I have to admit Samus does have some stupid match-ups, but it's quiet thrilling to out-play the other guy. It's whatever with P:M to me; game changed way to much for me to stick with it in the past. I can always just play Melee, but some Bahamians love it, so I'll host it.

 

[ph00tbag]

Her playstyle in Melee wasn't designed, it was simply a culmination of quick, low endlag attacks that have relatively low reward...

That's kind how footsies characters work in general. In fact, that's practically the definition of a footsies character. Maybe she wound up with a plethora of those kinds of attacks purely by accident, maybe it wasn't pure coincidence. Either way, just about all of her moveset was actually pretty darn self-complimentary, and the playstyle is pretty darn cohesive. So you can't really argue that she needed her game to be so upended.

First you say that what the people want is irrelevant, and then you make a statement like this. If we took a poll and the majority of people wanted to find a way to incorporate the stance change into her game, then how can you possibly say that that shouldn't be taken into consideration when deciding how she plays on a fundamental level? Why should only you and the people who agree with you get to decide how Samus should be played? Your argument basically boils down to "I don't think that's how Samus should be played, and therefore nobody else should be allowed to play her that way either. Also, my argument is more valid even though I may be in the minority because Samus couldn't do that in Melee."

I'm talking about the decision to add it in the first place. The question should have been asked, "even if people want it, is it worth the effort to rebalance her around the way it will change her gameplan?" If the answer is no (and IMO it is), then it shouldn't have been added. So if we're talking about what I want, then I can point you to that question. I want that to be asked when stuff like this is proposed.

...Or they could make everybody happy and include the stance change. The people who want to use it can, and the people who don't want to use it don't.

How much of my post did you read, exactly? Now the people who don't want to use it are underplaying. Do you think they're happy, now?

The position you're taking is like an older individual buying a cell phone, but they don't agree with the ability to text because it goes against how they believe a phone should be fundamentally used. "That's not the way phones worked back in the day - phones are meant for talking, not writing messages!" And then instead of just using the phone how they want and ignoring the feature they don't like, leaving them with a still perfectly usable product, they start a petition to remove the ability to text from all cell phones.

That's a terrible analogy. Primarily because the question I would have designers ask cannot possibly contain all of the technical and ethical hurdles that must be considered when talking about technological innovation.

 

[Deleted member]

It's a fine analogy. Just because you don't like that you are analogous to the silly anti-text messenger does not make it wrong.

I did read your post, and your logic is the only thing that's flawed. You choosing to play without the stance change has the exact same effect on how you play Samus as not having the stance change in the game at all. The only difference is that other people will have the choice to use the stance change in the former situatuion and not the latter. The fact that you might have some type of player's remorse over personally choosing not to use one of your character's options would be your issue and your issue alone. The same applies to my cell phone analogy - whether text messenging is banned altogether or you simply choose not to use the feature, your experience with the phone will be the same. The only difference is that, in the former, you've taken away the option from everybody else as well.

Strong Bad already said that her playstyle from Melee is completely preserved. This is not a change to how she fundamentally plays. This is an addition. There is a big difference between the two.

 

[GeZ]

This conversation needs to be laid down to rest. It was pursued to its logical extremity a while ago, and it's now being jumped on by half the forum without people actually reading ANY OF IT (SmashFromThePast non inclusive). Lets move the conversation on to literally anything else. For instance, how do you guys like the visual effect of the beam? Do you think it was well done, or the ice could use some work? And, did you know that the Ice Dtilt hits 3 times, and the Fsmash can it 2 times if they're close enough?

 

[Vashimus]

It's a fine analogy. Just because you don't like that you are analogous to the silly anti-text messenger does not make it wrong.

I did read your post, and your logic is the only thing that's flawed. You choosing to play without the stance change has the exact same effect on how you play Samus as not having the stance change in the game at all. The only difference is that other people will have the choice to use the stance change in the former situatuion and not the latter. The fact that you might have some type of player's remorse over personally choosing not to use one of your character's options would be your issue and your issue alone. The same applies to my cell phone analogy - whether text messenging is banned altogether or you simply choose not to use the feature, your experience with the phone will be the same. The only difference is that, in the former, you've taken away the option from everybody else as well.

In that case, when Zelda had jump-cancelable Din's Fires in 1.0 and you criticized it, I could say your logic was flawed as well, since as you put it, the jump cancels "seemed silly on what should be a graceful and elegant character". In other words, it didn't fit your ideal version of Zelda. (Correct me if I'm wrong on this, because I'll gladly find quotes on here or on the Smashmods archive) You've never played 1.0, but let's imagine that mechanic stayed and a ton of people liked it. Oh, but you don't HAVE to jump cancel if you don't want to. Other people can have the choice to jump-cancel their Side-B in ways that could benefit their gameplay with Zelda. But you don't like it, so don't use it.

You can already see how ridiculous that sounds and yet you keep bringing it up. If a character is given a new useful tool, even if they don't like it, it's in a person's best interest to use it. Whether it's Samus using her Ice Beam, Ganon being able to use his sword, Falcon getting a laser, whatever. If it benefits my character and their chances of winning, I'm handicapping myself by not using it. And if this forced design decision is something I don't agree with, then I don't see anything wrong with complaining about it. Just as you've gotten touchy in past with Zelda changes and no one batted an eye, ph00tbag is allowed to be just as passionate as well.

Even if you said you disagree with ph00tbag simply because you like the concept of switchable beams and he doesn't, at least you're being honest about it. But please, don't give the half-*ssed "if you don't like it, don't use it" fallacy argument, because that's what it is. A cop-out. It holds no ground on its own and does nothing to support your stance on why it should be in the game.

 

[Burning Boom]

This conversation needs to be laid down to rest. It was pursued to its logical extremity a while ago, and it's now being jumped on by half the forum without people actually reading ANY OF IT (SmashFromThePast non inclusive). Lets move the conversation on to literally anything else. For instance, how do you guys like the visual effect of the beam? Do you think it was well done, or the ice could use some work? And, did you know that the Ice Dtilt hits 3 times, and the Fsmash can it 2 times if they're close enough?

I think that the visual effect of the beam is really COOL (Ba-dum-tish). Seriously though, it looks nice, and really distinct. Also, what does the Ice D-tilt's purpose, what are the three hits, how powerful are they?

 

[MVP]

i'm curious too about the hitboxes of the ice beam attacks. supposedly d-tilt has a downward trajectory?

 

[Sarix]

This conversation needs to be laid down to rest. It was pursued to its logical extremity a while ago, and it's now being jumped on by half the forum without people actually reading ANY OF IT (SmashFromThePast non inclusive). Lets move the conversation on to literally anything else. For instance, how do you guys like the visual effect of the beam? Do you think it was well done, or the ice could use some work? And, did you know that the Ice Dtilt hits 3 times, and the Fsmash can it 2 times if they're close enough?

Yeah this topic is just going around in circles imo. Being able to shoot blue trails on missiles is pretty lol. I didn't know that Dtilt and Fsmash (how I label fire and ice mode) had multiple hits, that's pretty cool though. Originally I assumed Ice would be the more combo and pressure friendly mode just because of the logic of ice lol, but it seems like I was wrong on that one. Her combo game looks like it might have a little higher execution requirements than most characters at least from what I saw in the trailer. I actually wouldn't mind a character with more timing-based execution in their combos as opposed to raw speed.

Either way Samus is going to be an amazing character when she comes out with 4 useful mobility options: her long Wavedash, Bomb Dashing, Crawl Tilt, and Super Wave Dash, along with her strong zoning pressure and mix-up game.

 

[Tlock]

She isn't what she used to be in Melee and everyone that keeps saying barely viable....Hugs, Plup and Duck aren't beating good players because they are better than them, it's because Samus had tools that were viable and useful. Every weakness she had in Melee were already buffed in PM even without the Beam change. New roll, better fair/upair and usmash.

Are you really saying that Samus didn't need the buffs she has received? In melee she only has/had a small handful of mains that did/do decent at best with her in tourneys. How many Samus's have been in the top 3 in large (100+ entries) regionals in the past 5 years? I'm really curious at that number. I'd be really surprised if it was more than 5. Samus needed the buffs she received to have an actual chance at winning large tournaments.