Multiple beams...?

[MagnesD3]

Have any of you heard of this character called gen, he is a pretty cool guy...

 

[Vashimus]

Have any of you heard of this character called gen, he is a pretty cool guy...

Except Gen's Mantis and Crane stances were integral parts of his playstyle since day 1, and he's balanced around them accordingly. Samus has never had something like this, which is why it's unneeded and could potentially need to problems in design later on. Giving Samus a Fair hitting as hard as Ganon's Fair just doesn't sit right with me.

 

[MagnesD3]

Except Gen's Mantis and Crane stances were integral parts of his playstyle since day 1, and he's balanced around them accordingly. Samus has never had something like this, which is why it's unneeded and could potentially need to problems in design later on. Giving Samus a Fair hitting as hard as Ganon's Fair just doesn't sit right with me.

I know I'm just trying to show its not the worst thing ever. Yes it was probably unnessary but if it turns out to make her gameplay more interesting while retaining balance and not going too crazy I see no problem with it. I do think it is a bit random of an addition but I am hype regardless (and expect more beam types if ice beam stays).

 

[Strong Badam]

Giving Samus a Fair hitting as hard as Ganon's Fair just doesn't sit right with me.

Well then, it's a good thing it doesn't.

 

[l3thargy]

I was watching a vgbootcamp stream the other day and I'd like to announce you can taunt cancel into and out of the new stance

 

[Vashimus]

Well then, it's a good thing it doesn't.

That's not what I heard on the stream or what I've seen looking at gameplay. But hey, you're PMBR.

 

[br8k]

If I had to guess about the beams/missiles I'd say that the missiles won't freeze characters but I Bet it will have some hit lag to emulate being frozen or slowed down from the ice. It would be a good substitute for being frozen since frozen mechanics in PM are really really strange and broken. If there is a fire beam/missile I'd imagine it would simply be more explosive and do a little more damage. We'll just have to see though.

Ice Beam doesn't affect the Charge Shot or missiles at all. It only changes the A moves that have Samus firing short-range explosions from her arm cannon (down-tilt, side-smash, up-smash, f-air).

 

[roymaster803]

@br8k: Ok sounds more balanced like that anyway.

 

[DrinkingFood]

That's not what I heard on the stream or what I've seen looking at gameplay. But hey, you're PMBR.

I hope you don't always take the commentary for it's word; only like half of the time they do they have P:MBR on there when there's a P:M stream going, the rest of the time they are way misinformed or underinformed.

 

[ph00tbag]

But it's not taking away focus from her game! Her game plan has not been changed by the inclusion of a stance change. Her moveset and its effects are achieving the same thing. Her having a few additions to that moveset is not a distraction or a shift of focus. You're also making insane comparisons. These are moves that interact with her ability to control space. They are cannon friendly as they integrate smoothly into her strategy. Their is no taking away from her core game by adding to it. That fundamentally doesn't make sense. It's not like giving Marth a command grab or Jiggs a DP because it is relevant to what she wants to be doing.

I'm not saying anything was removed. I'm saying something was added, and that that's the problem. Instead of just saying you don't understand why it's a problem, try to look at it from the perspective of someone who has been thinking about the competitive Samus metagame, and has grown deeply attached to it over the course of seven years. Keeping stance in mind has nothing to do with the Samus playstyle I fell in love with, but now that it's a part of the character, that will be a part of playing her. There is nothing wrong with finding that problematic, and there's nothing wrong with voicing that disapproval.

For the record, I have nothing against stance change characters. I've been a proponent of giving Olimar more robust line management tools since P:M began, because I think he has great potential to be a very deep and compelling stance change character. The difference here is that Olimar is designed to be played that way from the ground up.

You're terribly far gone at this point. Things can be high minded and fun. I think that the stance change hasn't strayed too far into that realm because it's fun, as it is a robust addition to the characters tools. Not unnecessary. Not distracting. An addition. ,,,. Since it's some added utility, and wanted by the people the project is being made for, it's inclusion makes more sense than it's exclusion because in your eyes it moves to far into the realm of silly additions. P:M is highminded, a very well thought out project, that is made by fans for fans. That's its magic. I already perfectly articulated the wonder of a game having shows of affection and inside perspective in its design.

Ultimately this discussion is useless for you because you're so wrapped up in the professionalism of this project that you preclude the inclusion of fun. Fighting games are made for the competitive play in most instances, but they all have these little touches, bits of character, that give them things to like that aren't just the raw game. The personalities of the characters. The reasons behind stages, or taunts, or any of that. You don't enjoy that, as you see an excess of it as an attack on the games ability to be functionally professional and viable. You're straying towards not liking this project because it's finally including all of the withheld fun. All the little bits and pieces that were kept out in favor of raw matchups and viability in earlier patches is finally making it in and giving this mod its soul and you feel like that detracts too much from the entire experience.

Ummm, bull****? I have never said anything along these lines ever. I fully support the unique stages, alternate costumes, and new taunts. In the case of characters that needed complete overhauls, I in many cases been overwhelmingly pleased with the results. I've already praised the designs of Zelda and Bowser, for instance. I have seen many of the potential clone engine characters, and the excitement over the ones I've seen is so huge that it is physically painful not to talk about any of them on these boards. This is what I mean when you're making a strawman of my position. You have cast me in your mind as someone who cares nothing for anything the PMBR is doing here. That couldn't be further from the truth.

On the other hand, I am very disappointed in what has been done with Samus in this one specific instance, which I have stressed multiple times brings nothing Samus truly needed. And again; that is a valid concern. My hope has always been that this perspective would be given at least as fair a shake as the perspective that it must all be redone, and nothing is sacred.

I drew a comparison to another change to her that I always felt was really stupid, but have always just grudgingly accepted because it won't actually have any impact on her competitive gameplay; that certainly happened. Maybe I should have left my minor gripe about SWD out of this, because everyone seems totally up in arms that someone would dare to think the SWD was a silly addition that could easily have been left out entirely and no one wouldshould have been disappointed. Let me be clear on this. I don't think the SWD's inclusion is a deal breaker. But the fact that everyone acts like the glitch is a fundamental part of Samus's character design has always irked me since I first learned that it was a thing. It's inclusion is certainly salt in that particular wound, but really, I'd rather people not focus on it when the thing I'm really trying to criticize is the stance change.

He wasn't directing this at you, but to JRC LSS on the first page. You should know, since you liked the post.

Well, then there's a disconnect of reading comprehension there. JRC LSS's concern was that the cost of switching would far outstrip the benefit, which is a valid concern, actually. That's why I liked it. Granted, with the reveal that the change taunt can be taunt-canceled, it looks like it's not going to happen, which only exacerbates my own concern that the stance change will become a commonplace part of playing Samus.

 

[DrinkingFood]

so basically your complaint about samus is "bcuz melee"
k

 

[ph00tbag]

so basically your complaint about samus is "bcuz melee"
k

You don't really know why that argument was disparaged in the first place, do you?

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

Something was added, and that that's the problem.

 

[DrinkingFood]

doesn't matter people are liking my post and not yours
therefore I am right
umustbjelly

 

[GeZ]

You don't really know why that argument was disparaged in the first place, do you?

I think he makes a good point though. Project M is its own game with its own meta. It would make sense for Samus to have her own distinct new feeling in this new game. If you are so attached to the melee playstyle and mentality for Samus, then play another character. Or play melee and play her.

 

[Fortress]

I get what Phoot is saying, and it's a fair enough point on its own; Samus had her own meta in Melee (despite barely being tournament viable), and the point should be to build on that instead of changing it completely. That makes enough sense, and in a way, I do agree with it. BUT, what reason is there that this new mechanic can't be a part of her old meta, enhancing it and making her that much better of a character? I mean, Samus was so bad in previous titles, that her own meta felt shallow and difficult to penetrate. I don't see this change as anything but something that's going to help her in the long run, and open more possibilities for her than she had available in Melee.

 

[GeZ]

That's basically how I've felt about the whole thing. The block we keep running into is that the stance changes are detracting or moving focus away from the rest of her playstyle, which I think is a bit much considering it's not incredibly hard to keep in mind what stance your in, especially when they look and function completely differently.

 

[GeZ]

Ice Beam doesn't affect the Charge Shot or missiles at all. It only changes the A moves that have Samus firing short-range explosions from her arm cannon (down-tilt, side-smash, up-smash, f-air).

You're right about the charge shot but the missile is something being currently worked on. It's inclusion in 3.0 is still up in the air but it will make it in eventually.

 

[br8k]

You're right about the charge shot but the missile is something being currently worked on. It's inclusion in 3.0 is still up in the air but it will make it in eventually.

Eeenteresting. On that note, I wonder how/if the homing missiles were improved.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

not a samus main but i greatly enjoy using samus in melee, even though i can't do any of the specific techs like that platform missile canceling, but still i really like to use her, at the same time whenever i use her i feel like she's shallow, obviously not in the technical or anything else having to do with gameplay, instead it feels like she's missing something from her character, and considering samus actually has tons of moves from her games to work with, the design was just kinda meh in melee.

But PM samus is ****ing amazing, i can't begin to describe how awesome changing beams is, not only that i feel like the PMBR are doing a very well done job in having that special samus flavor that i've always wanted (same goes for snake) its just great, plus it really legitimizes PM in the eyes of loooooooooootsssssss of people, hell even the nofunalllowed creatures in /v/ actually shut the **** up when they realized samus can change beams haha, i guess it somes down to sticking to the roots of the character to a certain point, and then adding on what could be canon and balanced at the same time, if anything i think samus is gonna be a strong contender for high-tier, not to mention the amount of crazy meta-**** we're gonna see in the next few months

and again to anybody who doesn't like the supposed samus design in PM, you can always pop in melee and use melee samus, its true that she probably didn't need to change beams to be viable, but then again why shouldn't she have it, considering its faithful to the series and all.

again, not a samus main but i'm sure almost everyone cried/cheered/fist-pumped when they saw the beam change haha

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I really can't defend one side or the other on this debate...because I haven't gotten a chance to play her yet, and I don't know much about the character to begin with, so theory crafting is out lol. Keep in mind however that 3.0 is not the final product, its close, but there are too many, "what ifs", in the potential meta to say its done. With 3.0, its the best time to get data against the whole cast to see if something needs to be tweaked, so nothing is set in stone yet, and this samus stance change thingy should be no exception.

 

[jtm94]

If anything changes her meta is is the ability to switch from Samus to Zero Suit Samus at will.

 

[Vickyboi]

I hope that's intentional!

If you can do that in the public version of 3.0 I'm maining Zss again and secondary-ing Samus!

 

[GeZ]

Course it's intentional. It's just a neat easter egg deal by inputting a command on the taunt pad. Don't remember the thing exactly but you can just look it up. Only catch is that it doesn't work in reverse. Once Samus becomes ZSS there's no going back.

 

[jtm94]

Course it's intentional. It's just a neat easter egg deal by inputting a command on the taunt pad. Don't remember the thing exactly but you can just look it up. Only catch is that it doesn't work in reverse. Once Samus becomes ZSS there's no going back.

You can go from Zero Suit Samus to Samus again as well, I guess I neglected to be specific. I apologize.

 

[ph00tbag]

it's not incredibly hard to keep in mind what stance your in, especially when they look and function completely differently.

But it's a change in playstyle, nonetheless. It's not really something trivial, from a character design standpoint, even if it's just one more boolean for the player to keep in mind.

And remember, I say all this as someone who dabbled a lot in Olimar in Brawl. I do enjoy this playstyle, just not in Samus.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Samus has other buffs too ya'know. It's not like you have to use the beam swap to have access to an improved Samus for P:M; the grey thing about smash is the freedom to develop your own style for any character. All I'm really seeing this come down to is preference, and like Shanus (or shadic?) said, game design has a lot of grey areas- there's no "perfect" samus build. There's gonna be ones some people like but others dislike, and some others like but those first people dislike. Get in line, bro. If you think Samus should have a whole mechanic removed from her, get behind me while I wait for ROB's 2.1 side-b (certainly not asking much), cause I'm still in line behind on the upset sonic mains. You won't be alone, I'm fairly sure there'll be a few Ivy mains right behind you. Granted, I don't want to equalize everyone's complaints, because I understand some changes, especially the sonic ones and maybe Ivy's changes, are needed to avoid a really toxic gameplay style that's completely opposite the spirit of smash. The point is that as far as I can tell, P:MBR treats all complaints about character changes the same.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

and like Shanus (or shadic?) said, game design has a lot of great Gray areas.

 

[Mr.Random]

I REALLY wonder if that stage will be playable or not. I can see it being a PERFECT Wi-Fi practice stage. I wonder if that is what it is, though. It looks sick. (Or maybe it's just for show...)

Maybe they can turn the sandbag into a cpu fox also so we can actually practice combos. Just a dream though

 

[DrinkingFood]

and like Shanus (or shadic?) said, game design has a lot of great gray GREY areas-

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

don`t blame me, it`s 6 in the morning!

 

[br8k]

don`t blame me, it`s 6 in the morning!

Grey and Gray are the American and British spellings, I believe. Your comment makes sense if you're British only at six in the morning, though.

 

[lukifer]

Wow, I read that post as, "do you" instead of "you do". That's what I get for scrolling so quickly

Scratch that, in the VGBC stream the other day it was taunt-cancellable. Methinks it's best to just wait until the demo is released since they're still tweaking things.

 

[GeZ]

You can go from Zero Suit Samus to Samus again as well, I guess I neglected to be specific. I apologize.

The hell? How? That'd be a pretty neat addition, albeit a bit of a useless one.

But it's a change in playstyle, nonetheless. It's not really something trivial, from a character design standpoint, even if it's just one more boolean for the player to keep in mind.


And remember, I say all this as someone who dabbled a lot in Olimar in Brawl. I do enjoy this playstyle, just not in Samus.

I mained Olimar in Brawl. Loved the character to death, but I think you may also be treating the stance change as something larger than it is. In the case of Gen from streetfighter, it changes literally almost all of his tools, and the character is balanced around that.
Samus is not stance change centric now. Some of her tools change, but they work with her old game plan of spacing, as they act as tools to space differently/ place your opponent in a way different from her regular moves. Along with that the stance change leaves what she wants to do, as well as all but the strictly changes tools, the same so that she can operate as she does normally, just with a slightly altered tool set.

I think this comes down to a matter of preference. You do not like the stance change because you feel it takes focus from the rest of her game and is unnecessary. I feel that it's a cool addition that gives her meta more depth and strengthens her options in some situations. I'm really not one to use the "everyone has their own opinions" argument, because I consider it very zero sum and lame, but that is really what it comes down to in this instance.

 

[jtm94]

The hell? How? That'd be a pretty neat addition, albeit a bit of a useless one.

I don't think it's super useless, it covers some areas where ZSS could struggle.
during a stream the player changed from ZSS to Samus and back again about 2/3 times over in a match without any exceedingly difficult operations.

 

[GeZ]

I don't think it's super useless, it covers some areas where ZSS could struggle.
during a stream the player changed from ZSS to Samus and back again about 2/3 times over in a match without any exceedingly difficult operations.

The reason I'd say it won't be super useful is because competitively, the only edge it would give you is making your opponent adjust to the new character. If ZSS does better in a certain match up, then you would just pick her. Same goes for Samus. Switching would simply force your opponent to figure out how to deal with your interactions with your character again, rather than give you any inherent advantage you wouldn't otherwise have by just picking the other Samus. On top of that, I don't see it being used much in competitive play anyway, because the advantage it gains you is very meta, and would take a very smart player to implement it as I've stated.

 

[Time/SpaceMage]

Interesting debate. I can appreciate being worried that Samus's most effective playstyle is being changed unnecessarily. Heck, I main Ganon and it was weird getting used to Flame Choke with a Melee moveset. It is odd to see a taunt affecting a moveset, though I'm still very interested in seeing how she plays with more technical variety added.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

Interesting debate. I can appreciate being worried that Samus's most effective playstyle is being changed unnecessarily. Heck, I main Ganon and it was weird getting used to Flame Choke with a Melee moveset. It is odd to see a taunt affecting a moveset, though I'm still very interested in seeing how she plays with more technical variety added.

Toon Link`s milk taunt, Lucario`s aura taunt, there are tons of taunts that affect gameplay

 

[Time/SpaceMage]

Toon Link`s milk taunt, Lucario`s aura taunt, there are tons of taunts that affect gameplay

I'll give you the aura taunt since it also affects multiple moves, but it's to a much smaller degree than Samus's. You need to use it multiple times to gain an aura charge. Also, neither his nor Tink's taunts can be taunt-cancelled to gain their effects. Luigi and Snake's are situational attacks. Samus's changes 4 moves.

Not that I think she should lose the taunt cancel, I think it's amazing. It's just rather odd to have a taunt have that much of an effect on a moveset, that's all.

 

[PastLink]

Toon Link`s milk taunt, Lucario`s aura taunt, there are tons of taunts that affect gameplay

just adding what i've discovered to this list since i played around with it. but here we go
luigi: you all already know this one.
zelda: that ball of fire she holds in her hand? yeah it's a hit box
bowser: when he does all those bites? 20 % damage
Tink: his wind waker music taunt has a VERY small push back when it makes the noise, and they have to be standing right next to you, so it's useless, period, i even tried to see if it would push someone off the ledge if they were holding it, nothing.
snake: the box has a hitbox and clashes with projectiles once he throws it off. if you wanna troll it could be used for gimping at the edge of a stage