MU discussion: Sheik

[Delta-cod]

Linking results is as easy as copying the link to wherever they're posted and pasting it in a reply here.

 

[YoHeKing]

Linking results is as easy as copying the link to wherever they're posted and pasting it in reply here.

No clue were there posted as these were local tourneys. Half of the players were bad though and stoped going. If anyone of you guys play sheik I would love to demonstrate on you why I think its a even MU and see what you think of this style of play.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

No clue were there posted as these were local tourneys. Half of the players were bad though and stoped going. If anyone of you guys play sheik I would love to demonstrate on you why I think its a even MU and see what you think of this style of play.

Hit up the Sheik boards and find a good Sheik to spar with. Now with replay-sharing, you can send it around.

 

[YoHeKing]

Hit up the Sheik boards and find a good Sheik to spar with. Now with replay-sharing, you can send it around.

Awesome. Theres good sheiks there I hope. Ill probably fight sheiks there and post the results and replays to see what you guys think. Ill do this on saturday most likely!

 

[Chrisgopher]

Now with replay-sharing, you can send it around.

How exactly does that work? Is the sharing restricted to within the Wii U only, or can you view it replays online from a computer somehow?

 

[YoHeKing]

How exactly does that work? Is the sharing restricted to within the Wii U only, or can you view it replays online from a computer somehow?

Sharing replays dont work on computer. Its fine anyways. I have a capture card so no worries.

 

[Nikes]

How exactly does that work? Is the sharing restricted to within the Wii U only, or can you view it replays online from a computer somehow?

Replays are just data that tells the game what to do so it's not possible to view it on a computer, at least at this point. The new patch lets you send replays to friends I believe. (finally)

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yes you can send replays to friends now.
Even though most recording methods is just using twitch broadcasts, if there happens to be a set not on the recording set up they can send to the uploader maybe long as they write a comment on who was in the match since it doesn't show their tags.

 

[YoHeKing]

Lol could some of you add me so I dont have to record so much? Also Ihave a disrespect replay of sheik vs my yoshi in freindlys. I read his bouncing fish twice and one of the times I used lick and he fell to his death. Still a good replay though.

How do I contact the sheik community players? Which forum.

 

[HoboJoe]

So it's pretty much established that Yoshi is at a huge disadvantage against sheik, and I get that, but can we discuss on what we should be doing in the neutral should the matchup come up? In our tourney scene we have a Sheik currently dominating every tourney, and I had the luxury to play this sheik player in Grand Finals a good month back and I just didn't know what to do. Sheik is just too fast, spacing F-airs wasn't working, his F-air, B-air, and N-air beats our N-air, and camping out with eggs just doesn't work because of how long it actually takes for the eggs to come out, jump cancel slide away egg toss just ended up getting me cornered. It seems the only advantage we have over Sheik is that Yoshi is especially hard to kill for Sheik. One of the games we played in our set I managed to get to 244% before he was able to kill me, and the other games I was usually above 150% before he got the kill.

I also want to ask what stages we should take Sheik to if the matchup comes up? My closest match was on Halberd which seemed to be best, but I was absolutely destroyed on going Lylat the following 2 matches. I think Lylat might be better for Sheik than it is for us, but I'd like to hear more opinions on it, since I'm not entirely convinced, despite the losses.

 

[YoHeKing]

Yeah she really has a hard time killing yoshi sence he has enough controll not to be edgaurded. Seriously though a good yoshi kills at around 100% most of the time. While sheik kills at like 150% most of the time. Sheiks pretty vulnerable above yoshi.

I dont use eggs at all in this MU anyways.
I wanted to show you guys some replays of me vs good sheiks on smashboards to see if I could change my own mind or your minds. I dont know how to contact any and none of you bothered to answer me.

 

[Yikarur]

the amount of pessimism in this thread is insane. It's like super theory bros. presenting only the negative way.

 

[YoHeKing]

Im not good at explaining how I play and why I think the MU is a certain way when basicly everything is disagreed. This is why I want to show so some1 else can explain. Nobody really answers my latest questions though and ive tried google. No clue were to find the sheik players of smash boards that will accept my request. Could some1 help me out?
I honestly am the only yoshi here(i think) that sees the hope in the MU and thinks its even.

 

[Delta-cod]

Hit up the Sheik boards and find a good Sheik to spar with. Now with replay-sharing, you can send it around.

@ YoHeKing You got an answer. If the Sheiks aren't answering you, don't blame us. For your convenience:

Sheik Social thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/sheik-general-discussion-social-narutos-little-sister.324217/
Sheik MU thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/ninja-clan-here-we-stand-sheik-match-up-thread.371918/

 

[YoHeKing]

Delta cod to the rescue! Thanks man! I wasnt blaming anyone I just wasnt sure if I was posting to the right places. Ill go try to get some opponents now. Ill post the battles of multiple sheiks when I fight enough.

 

[HoboJoe]

@ YoHeKing That would be great, I have a replay from the tourney still if any of you want to critique it or see what could have been done better. I was pretty on point most of the match, made a few mistakes here and there and I wasn't aware of some Yoshi tech around the time we had the tourney, but was still thoroughly destroyed. I just have no way of uploading it here due to lack of capture card. That said, I'd still like some advice on how to handle the neutral, since I'm pretty stumped on just what to do against Sheik. I'm afraid I'll have to move away from the lovable dino and finally learn to pick up a secondary just for this matchup.

 

[YoHeKing]

Add me and send it.
Maybe its just me that agrees with the MU even but I might be the most experienced(meaning I've played longer) yoshi here? 200 hours of battle time for yoshi. Over 20,000 kills with yoshi. Idk tho

 

[Sinister Slush]

Playing Yoshi a bunch in smash 4 on for glory or kills really doesn't matter.
Even more so if somebody was to delete your name and now all that data is gone.

Also pretty sure everyday has played Yoshi since 64, competitively 2010 and under most likely the past 6+ years.

 

[YoHeKing]

Playing Yoshi a bunch in smash 4 on for glory or kills really doesn't matter.
Even more so if somebody was to delete your name and now all that data is gone.

Also pretty sure everyday has played Yoshi since 64, competitively 2010 and under most likely the past 6+ years.

Yeah but I mean sm4sh 4. Im sure all of you have more of a life then me xD
But ive only played for glory about 100 times? Im mostly in rooms for some awesome battles with my crew or people I know. Alot of streamers respect me so im on twict alot to. For glory is basicly For Scrubs. Not offending any of you. I respect all yoshis because Yoshi is awesome. Im just talking about most of the people on there.

 

[HoboJoe]

@ YoHeKing I'll friend you and send it when I get a chance (probably tomorrow morning). I'm relatively new to competitive smash I only started attending tourneys since December, and I've had some good results in my region, would be great to get some advice outside of my region, my internet is garbage so I only really learn from people I play locally (which lucky for me I'm able to do daily).

 

[Sinister Slush]

Everyone*
I'm still in relaxation mode, will work on important-ish threads tomorrow or Saturday. Don't take Sheik to anything but T&C first game. 2nd game can be whatever stage is least like a flat stage with platforms, so skyloft kongo wuhu etc.

MU maybe -1 after playing it a bit more differently and Sheik bair nerf so now needing to land raw Usmash bouncing fish or vanish to kill us.

 

[YoHeKing]

Its the upsmash that gets us on BF. To get hit by a bouncing fish or vanish is very well not noob like but its kinda hard to get hit like that. Really easy to just evade it or jump around it. Mistakes are made though!

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I played Mr. R a few times, but he mostly went Falcon. He actually think the MU is really knowledge-dependent. He said a Sheik that doesn't know Yoshi well will lose, which seems kinda obvious to me, but he doesn't seem to think it's that bad of a MU for Yoshi.

I don't think he knows much about Yoshi, but he does know probably more about Sheik than anyone else we've talked to on the Sheik side of things.

I played Ganondorf against his Sheik more than Yoshi, which is an even worse MU.

 

[YoHeKing]

Well from all the yoshis I see fighting sheiks always go for the unsafe sheild, eggs, weak edgaurds and try to nair in air.
It seems like yoshis hitboxes are bigger then sheiks or is it just me?

Currently trying to get the sheik boards to battle!

 

[DunnoBro]

Since sheik was considered DHD's worst mu I've been using yoshi to counter them. I never lost to a sheik with yoshi so I'm confused why people say he gets wrecked by sheik.

Just don't play her on BF. FD's not great either.

 

[YoHeKing]

Since sheik was considered DHD'serst mu I've been using yoshi to counter them. I never lost to a sheik with yoshi so I'm confused why people say he gets wrecked by sheik.

Just don't play her on BF. FD's not great either.

Yes im not alone! Also ive been fighting sheiks online 1 by 1 and so far they have all been 2 stockes... Only 3 ive fought. I need more videos though.

Ive founds that eggs do not help in this MU at all and good spaced fairs are almost impossible to punish.

 

[DragN]

Yes im not alone! Also ive been fighting sheiks online 1 by 1 and so far they have all been 2 stockes... Only 3 ive fought. I need more videos though.

Ive founds that eggs do not help in this MU at all and good spaced fairs are almost impossible to punish.

Nice to see some more optimism here. We need to stay positive. Personally, I agree i think we don't struggle with Sheik as much as everyone else says. Zamus and Rosalina are the ones that give me trouble

 

[YoHeKing]

Nice to see some more optimism here. We need to stay positive. Personally, I agree i think we don't struggle with Sheik as much as everyone else says. Zamus and Rosalina are the ones that give me trouble

Rosalina is the one you spam eggs till lumas dead or almost dead. Rosalina cant pressure yoshi if you know what ur doing. Rosalina is helpless without luma because she has like no defensive option without luma.. Sheik is alot diffrent though. I find agression and baiting playstyles good againt sheik.

Heres a link to me fighting an okay sheik. I plan on uploading a ton more of the sheik VS Yoshi MU and I dont want them all having me win. I want to post the first two sets of a sheik player ive never played before so im not uploading any videos of my crew members.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KMAFFwberOY
He left after game 1. :/

 

[DragN]

That was an epic up air you got on him. I've only ever done that on a grounded opponent once. :D Nice F smash read too!

 

[ipoopeggs]

That Sheik was awful. The match was a bunch of button mashing on both sides.

 

[ReturningFall]

Either YoHeKing has just figured out how to out wall out Sheik with Fair or we just saw why you usually benefit from making more moves than your opponent. Honestly, some of the stuff Sheik was doing makes me wonder if there was some kind of lag. Yoshi beats Sheik in sufficient lag as we get hard to punish and Sheik's lack of kill power hurts her badly--especially against mid-heavies like Yoshi.

On a personal note, I finally played a Sheik who (sorta) knew what he was doing. Definitely not in our favor. I managed to win, but only because it was a first tournament and he kept making bad inputs (cough, dair, cough) that let me score some solid kills. Haven't felt that helpless against a wall in a looong time...

 

[YoHeKing]

The game had like a normal .1 second delay like most online matches.

Also you have no idea how many times I get called unsafe, button masher or brain dead till they fight me. I have a extremely difficult to punish approach. I dont just throw out fairs. I use them at certain distances and my opponents current state. People think they catch on but when you see them running, charging a smash or using an attack its a easy 2nd jump away, B reversal away or egg hope away. With yoshis momentum speed a fair full hoped is completly safe as long as your not doing it above opponents or really close. It's complex kinda. I feel like if I explained it to the max it would make me look like a scrub. Its a mind game. People try to go for the punish but dont get it or even worst. I do it all the time along with many other approaches. It varies on MU tho. This just basiclly makes you look predictable and easy to punish when it actually dosnt. Probably a reason why I find it really good because they would expect a full hop fair to another aireal not a short hop.

Smashboards mobile is so bad for my phone so sorry if theres errors. Ill try to fix thethem.

And yes its basicly a wall of fairs. Im not having any good from the sheik boards and everyone ive fought are just decent and no worth even posting the games. Is there somewhere with easier better MUs? I want to fight way more then 5 sheiks.

 

[GSM_Dren]

Sheik
Back Air 11%/10% -> 8%/7%
Down Tilt 7.5% -> 5%

Revisiting the discussion, Sheik still comes out as our worst matchup after the patch at -2 for us. Her most significant change is of course Bair's reduced killing power. Ledge trump bair is less of a threat so she has to rely on her other kill moves (Usmash, bouncing fish, uair) to secure the kill.

I was playing smash with a couple of my crew last night. Void is our top player in Hawaii, and arguably is one of the best shieks in the nation according to Larry. From my experience, Yoshi does not get shutdown completely, but it is quite the uphill battle. As pessimistic as it sounds, we cannot compete in neutral against a highly skilled shiek. Her frame data means we get fair'd across the stage, her tilts incorporated along with perfect pivots make approaching difficult, empty jumps into anything means we may often commit to a move and get punished quickly for it.

Egg toss is a very valuable tool for us when used correctly. We cannot afford to throw it close-mid range because of her ground and aerial speed. Nair also helps us to break combos, but do not be too predictable with it or else it'll get shielded->punish. Bouncing fish invincibility is on frame 2-3, so challenging it with Fair/nair is difficult for us. We really have to respect seemingly the entirety of sheik's moveset, because if we do get a string of attacks, we will often time get punished if we over-commit.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I still think this MU is annoying for us. Nerfs or no nerfs she's still strong in that she can shut us down in our already abysmal neutral and our advantageous state against her still feels like a disadvantage almost always.
I'm sad my 2-0 against an up and coming Sheik in my state didn't get recorded due to poor management from the recording people, but this feels like a MU where stages (except smashville, don't ever go there) don't matter one bit and we just have to simply camp her and avoid as many hits as possible so we can never get into Usmash kill range or get to a % where being needled/fair chained can lead into her bouncing fish.

I still think it's silly that her fthrow, no matter how you DI at low %, will always make you get hit by her bouncing fish.
It's hard to say where I want to put this, on one side I'm beating decent sheik main(s). On the other hand they're not top level and even tho I'm beating them I'm struggling against them still.

Karna has been beating people like trela fliphop and I think Denti etc. in my state recently, while the Sheik in my city isn't bringing anything to the table, but just cause it's Sheik I still feel overwhelmed and feel like I'm unable to do anything to her. -2 honestly, -1 doesn't feel right even if the player is bad, -3 it'd feel like if you went up against someone like say Zero or Rain.

You can tell the inexperience of the character is there when he doesn't bouncing fish during fthrow, and his main move while fishing for kills (no pun intended) is using Usmash.

 

[YoshiStar5000]

I would also say it's in Sheik's favour. It sucks even more that we're pretty heavy and that she has very little landing lag for us to punish. Eggs and spaced Fairs I would say are the best to moves against her.

 

[GSM_Dren]

VoiD (#1 on HI PR)
WSF
LF

Shiek the destroyer of dreams. These sets were from the most recent tournament and show how good she is against yoshi. We play friendlies a lot so I win a game every once in a while, but I've never taken a set. Definitely yoshi's toughest matchup.

 

[YoHeKing]

Yeah pretty bad sheik. I remember that I was honestly just messing around. Ive been fighting alot of great sheiks lately and been noticing they dont go for combos they try to bait out the nair which does not work on me. I use 2nd jump into nair. Its a safe combo breaker if it misses. Keep in mind that yoshis super armor works with alot of sheiks aireals without it breaking.

Ive been memorizing exactly when its safe to bait out attack and break combos with his super jump. I also use a type of appoach with Yoshis super jump. It can bait out a sheik or stall a sheik. Needles will not screw up this method if done correctly because Yoshis ability to throw eggs or land on a platform. Ive also noticed I never use eggs at all in this MU. Useing eggs can actually have no use because a good sheik could sheild it or cancel it out with an aireal.

I was playing Direonfires(really good pro from new york) sheik and his sheik is getting really amazing. I beat him because I was using the tactics hes never seen a Yoshi do. He told me he has to play perfectly and cannot mess up to beat me. He plays Yoshi and think the MU is in sheiks favor so he knows alot about Yoshi to. He wants his revenge though. xD

I hear theres alot of great sheiks in AZ and around AZ so I cant wait to go to bigger tourneys. Hopefully I can change minds and find new tactics.

 

[Delta-cod]

While DJ Nair is definitely safer in the short term, it forces you to try to land against Sheik without a double jump, which can be a pretty dangerous place to be. Works much better on platformed stages, I think.

Could you explain this approach method of yours?

 

[YoHeKing]

While DJ Nair is definitely safer in the short term, it forces you to try to land against Sheik without a double jump, which can be a pretty dangerous place to be. Works much better on platformed stages, I think.

Could you explain this approach method of yours?

Thats what I mean. Yoshi can platform cancel his airdodges which helps a ton. When I approach Sheiks or anyone with weak but fast aireals I use my 2nd jump. Its a great baiting or stalling method if you fastfall into sheild or combine maybe a B reversal or an approach. If you bait them out with the 2nd jump you shouldnt be able to flinch which is a free nair. But when you stall the sheik remember you can always do a b reversal with up B or nair to change your position. Funny thing is people wait for me to come down and attack them or if they like to spot dodge any of the approaching you can just go on the ground and simply do a move thats safe like a perfect pivot or a back crawl momentum into tilt or 1st jab. Its alot more safe then it sounds.

I always approach with a full hop fair to try to get the opponent to adapt to that. It really hard to punish if you know how to correctly use Yoshis momentum but when they figure it out then I like to switch up with b reversal short hop or a 2nd jump type of approach.

Its also a amazing approach from below. The character can really attack you if they have weak aireals so if they attack you just do a nair or up air right after. When they air dodge you should be able to do a good follow up. Its more of a patients tactic but untill you know exactly what they mostly do above you you could just read without this.

I dont advise just going into battle doing this type of stuff right now. It took a lot of time for me to figure out all the safe options for characters and while its safe to use 2nd jump approaching at certian % and rage on the other character. I advice using your airdodges to cancel on a platform to try to bait or even stall them again with the 2nd jump. And it shouldnt be repeatedly used. Especially at high percents. This is hard to pull off on non platform stages but you can even approach under the stage with this type of approach on DK 64 and halbert from the ledge. Just make sure you dont use attacks on this one. Its way to risky.

 

[ReturningFall]

Got a video of this Direonfires match? It sounds like you'd lose stage control if you always went to an upper platform. I'm curious how he responded.

Also, I thought throwing an attack with the DJ made us lose armor unless the timing was nearly frame perfect. Or are you advocating for double jumping around to try and get hit and punish on us taking damage?