MU discussion: Sheik

[ElevenOnze]

I hate sheik, it's really hard to approach

 

[Delta-cod]

I hate sheik, it's really hard to approach

What makes you think it's hard to approach?

 

[manueluno]

She just seems really uptight you know? Being a princess and all that... triforce of wisdom...

 

[Delta-cod]

Please keep discussion serious and on topic. If you want to make a joke, you should at least also have some substance to your post.

 

[Lukingordex]

What makes you think it's hard to approach?

I believe his reason to believe this is her stupid fair and needles which outpriorizes yoshi's entire moveset.

 

[Delta-cod]

I believe his reason to believe this is her stupid fair and needles which outpriorizes yoshi's entire moveset.

That's what I figured, and I agree, I was just trying to get more thought out of him.

Our lack of a neutral game is KILLER here, because we really have no answer to empty SHFFs, nor do we really answer Fair except for Yolo Usmash.

Here's a question: Does anyone know how our Fair interacts with her Fair, range-wise? If we space well enough, can our Fair connect without hers connecting? It might give us an option in neutral to shut down the SHFF game. I recall our Fair having ridiculous horizontal reach.

 

[Sinister Slush]

It has reach but the problem is it's slow and half the time all it does is extend our hurtbox even further to get hit.
It's the story of how I miraculously get hit by Diddy fairs when I shouldn't. Only because I'm spacing fairs and his fairs seem to hit me still since they have more range and priority.

 

[Delta-cod]

Do aerials have priority in this game, or do they just trade? Fair trading with Sheik seems pretty amazing, in that case.

Just checked the frame data, and if my math is right, we can swing Fair in 22 frames (6 jumpsquat). That's not amazing, but not horrible either, and it certainly might be worth considering if the Sheik is empty SHing a bunch.

 

[DragN]

Aerials trade. It's pretty funny when me and opponent meteor smash eaxh other at the same time. XD (ps. Im new to Smashboards)

In regard to the Sheik matchup, yes we are at a disadvantage. Yet I think we r blowing it out of proportion. Yes sheik is insanely quick and can chip away at us for days. But we can hit harder than she can and we have better air mobility. Yoshi can Up Smash sheik out of her bouncing fish. The worst that can happen is Yoshi gets hit too and suffers a bit of knockback. Sheik meanwhile, will be sent flying away. If WE can pressure HER, get in and push her off the edge.with n-airs and jabs..we can setup for an up smash to knock her into space!

 

[Wingz003]

Diddy is just plain awful to play against sometimes lol

 

[DragN]

Diddy is just plain awful to play against sometimes lol

Yeah I can see how he'd be a hassle because bananas, grab, f-air but I think sheik is worse. Atleast we don't get hit a zillion times in 7 seconds. XD

 

[Chrisgopher]

How NOT to play against Shiek

So I thought I would share some footage from my last tournament. First (and last) match-up is against Shiek. Any feedback/suggestions are greatly appreciated.

youtube.com/watch?v=vyvxCHhTEDI

PS: If the quality is too low I can upload a better one.

I've been playing Smash, I guess you would call casually, since the 64 and Yoshi has always been a main. I recently started frequenting a local tournament, and as expected, have been getting whipped badly. A friend of mine there said he uses these boards to gain insight into his character. I've been improving slowly. Here's hoping I can learn some new tricks.

 

[Genma316]

From what I've noticed about Sheik is that Sheik will more likely than not always be in our face and try to punish our lag using a combination of SHFF Nair and Fair strings. Our titls(Utilt, Ftilt, spaced Dtilt are actually good anti air options for the nair as a Sheik that relies on spacing will be aiming for Yoshi's nose our u and f tilts will shrink our hitbox and gives the option that will either beat our clash with Sheik's nair, same thing with dtilt(only if timed correctly). Dealing with fair the old DIng away trick still comes in handy, but since we need to take every opportunity to hit Sheik as we can, DJ Nair after the first Fair I feel will be the best option, we still take damage, but that was gonna happen anyway. I've also noticed Sheik's like to shield a lot and as this was said before our aces in the whole for that will be our dair and our down b, especially our on stage down b since it'll be difficult for the to drop shield after the rising hitbox of down b makes contact and we all know what happens when Yoshi's down b hits a shield.

 

[YoHeKing]

I dont get how people hate this MU. Yoshis hitboxes out do all of sheiks moves besides needles. And its not like she has kill throws so I wouldnt be worried about a simple grab. Yoshi can also screw up her bouncing fish likr nothing.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I guess you haven't played actual Sheik mains then.
Won't matter maybe in less than 24 hours, but any half decent Sheik main could just stuff your face in without trying too hard and still win just cause her everything in terms of frame data hitboxes and advantaged neutral disadvantaged states is all better than ours.

 

[YoHeKing]

I guess you haven't played actual Sheik mains then.
Won't matter maybe in less than 24 hours, but any half decent Sheik main could just stuff your face in without trying too hard and still win just cause her everything in terms of frame data hitboxes and advantaged neutral disadvantaged states is all better than ours.

I play really good sheiks all the time. I just dont believe the MU is uneven. I have a very strange playstyle. Ive noticed every yoshi main is never the same. And sheik isnt a weakness for me. Do you know any sheik players that can beat your yoshter? I wouldnt mind actually showing it then talk about it. Its just my opinion though. Yoshi can break, DI, or 2nd jump out of almost all of sheiks combos. Not only that but Yoshi can edge guard a sheik pretty good. Bouncing fish has some pretty bad start up and cool down. So wouldnt fair or bair really screw sheik up?

 

[Delta-cod]

Bouncing fish doesn't really have bad startup, since Sheik can kick basically anytime during the flip. That, combined with the fact that the actual kick has strong range and priority, and that the kick itself comes out quickly, makes it foolish to challenge the move in most cases.

Yoshi can't edgeguard Sheik well because of bouncing fish recovery (Bair/Nair don't really beat it, Fair is too slow), and due to Sheik's actual recovery move being pretty good (invincibility, no edgehogs in this game).

 

[Sinister Slush]

She can mixup both her recovery and landings too, there's literally infinite possibilities for her from her vanish bouncing fish and regular DJ being so high in general.
So it's near impossible to guess where she's gonna land and if we chase her in the air, giving up stage positioning only for her to bouncing fish away or even challenge us and UpB to try and hit or kill us, we're ****ed either way. Imma be like Little mac and just never attempt going into the ai-

Oh wait patch.

 

[YoHeKing]

Yoshi can edge guard sheik. bouncing fish will come out but it also has to travel. It has some massive cool down. With yoshis air speed he can easily trick the sheik player and meteor smash her as bouncing fish is cooling down. Her vanish is really pedictable and if you grab the edge after she grabs it she can get punished big time. Vanishi has some major start up and cool down so if she tryrd to recovor back to the stage she will be in danager. Not only that but yosshis air movement is almost the same speed as bouncing fish in the first place.

 

[Delta-cod]

I may be wrong, but I remember being told that you can ALWAYS escape a ledge trump by buffering roll (or some get up option, but I heard roll). This means Sheik can ALWAYS grab the ledge with vanish.

Bouncing fish only has cool down AFTER THE KICK (or on landing). Unless I'm mistaken, Sheik can also grab the ledge out of it, meaning she can just flip towards the ledge, dare us to challenge it, and if we back off, just grab the ledge. Assuming she can't directly use it to grab the ledge, she can just flip towards the ledge to cover distance, kick, then vanish to the ledge, which is safe.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yoshi can edge guard sheik. bouncing fish will come out but it also has to travel. It has some massive cool down.

http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-573#post-18981403
It has massive cooldown if it hits nothing.
Which brings up the question, why use it at all in the first place then? They use it either on the stage itself to bounce back, when trying to hit us or to recover and we can't chase after her incase we possibly get hit by it.

Vanishi has some major start up and cool down

Which she's invincible during for a good portion of the move while the windbox pushes you a mile away when you try to punish her after.

 

[YoHeKing]

I dont think it works like that. Theres a simple amount of time you cant do anything once you grab the ledge. After she regrabs the edge shes not invincible anymore and the delay is still there. After you grab the edge to push her off it can be very deadly for her. Her lag on her boucning fish and vanish is enough to finish and now that yoshi can jump out of sheik you could sheild and punish or even full hop because she cant hit you after you just pushed her of the edge. Theres a high chance of hitting her if you know what your doing.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Also Delta nah don't think she can grab the ledge with bouncing fish, but she can do dumb stuff like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTOH6-bjrXU#t=25s

She can still manipulate how she moves during it too whether she wants to go a short distance or forever forward. It's really dumb and if you encounter a Sheik that knows how to space her fairs properly, use needles and flailing whale correctly, this feels worse than Diddy MU even though he's essentially the same thing except his fairs are more bigger in terms of hitboxes and does 13% each hit.

 

[YoHeKing]

http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-573#post-18981403
It has massive cooldown if it hits nothing.
Which brings up the question, why use it at all in the first place then? They use it either on the stage itself to bounce back, when trying to hit us or to recover and we can't chase after her incase we possibly get hit by it.

Which she's invincible during for a good portion of the move while the windbox pushes you a mile away when you try to punish her after.

Well you could easily just sheild it. It dosnt push u away in sheild and the 2nd hit of vanish will even drop the amount of yoshis sheild dropping time. Then you have a free smash attack on her. Boucing fish and vanish are slow enough to actually react in the first place and bouncing fish is exploitable under and over the move no?

 

[Sinister Slush]

The problem with shielding bouncing fish is it's safe on shield like most her moves, the problem I stated earlier of "where will she land" especially after hitting something is a problem for us still.
She can go a short distance after hitting shield, or a far distance and back to the ledge/neutral.

It's hard to predict when Sheik will feel like winning trades by throwing out her invincible on start up bouncing fish and how far or short will she go.
It still boggles my ****ing mind a Fthrow with even small characters DI'ing up/away from her she can still land that move on people. It iwueshtgiwsaehiu me to no end.

 

[YoHeKing]

The problem with shielding bouncing fish is it's safe on shield like most her moves, the problem I stated earlier of "where will she land" especially after hitting something is a problem for us still.
She can go a short distance after hitting shield, or a far distance and back to the ledge/neutral.

It's hard to predict when Sheik will feel like winning trades by throwing out her invincible on start up bouncing fish and how far or short will she go.
It still boggles my ****ing mind a Fthrow with even small characters DI'ing up/away from her she can still land that move on people. It iwueshtgiwsaehiu me to no end.

Yoshi can perfect sheild punish sheik with his up smash. Not only that though but her bouncing fish isnt safe on spot dodge correct? Also yoshi can safly predict a sheik player. For example yoshis back air had a hug hitbox but it dosnt exand yoshis hitbox into a attack. So if you see a sheik bounce under the stage you could run off the stage back air and if they jump to stage and no vanish they might be back air spiked or comboed without having to worry about a punish right? But if they do vanish its no profit fo anyone.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Perfect shield bouncing fish and somehow Usmash it.
Spotdodge on reaction just like how people say with diddy Side-b
"safely" predicting Sheik
So the player has to just play absolutely perfect to win the match up. Cool, gonna go trade my organs to become a cyborg real quick. I do have hawaiian shirts to be like Franky.

Also if a sheik can bouncing fish they obviously can vanish still, cause well, they're not in freefall animation as they would be if they did upb first lol

Spoiler: paint skillzzzz

I don't see the thought process, our hitbox is connected to our tail, we can still get hit just like how we can still get hit during our Dair.
We're getting into some major theorycrafting terrority and it must end now.
The patch is in less than 7 or so hours depending on time zones and Sheik might possibly get nerfed. I wanted all discussions for characters to be stopped for now until tonight, so let's not continue this anymore.

 

[YoHeKing]

Well I know a bunch of sheik players and they never beat my yoshi. They say its just because im so good but I dont believe it at all. Also Yoshi back air tail wip actualy dosnt have a enlarged hitbox. Also you say you have to play perfectly to safely predict which I completly wrong. Im not perfect and I can safely predict. Simply find out exactly were there blind spots are. Once sheik is under th stage she dont have alot of options. She dont have the air speed yoshi has so its not hard to safely predict. If you see a sheik under the stage you ca predict them with a arcd egg just in case she bounces. Safe predicting ist hard for yoshster and if you know the MU well you can safely predict.

Oops I just saw your post. Want me to delete this?

 

[Sinister Slush]

They say its just because im so good but I dont believe it at all.

Is english your first language?
anyways, that was something I forgot to bring up. Any videos of you vs your states sheik players? it'd make this discussion much easier so we can gauge the difference between players for you to think Yoshi is an even MU.

 

[YoHeKing]

"Sinister Slush, post: 18984222, member: 156901"]Is english your first language?
anyways, that was something I forgot to bring up. Any videos of you vs your states sheik players? it'd make this discussion much easier so we can gauge the difference between players for you to think Yoshi is an even MU.

Yeah smasbords on mobile sucks for me sorry. Also I fight players in tourneys, freinds, twitch and online and sheik has never botherd me. Could me posting videos up on youtube help? I stoped going to tourneys but im gonna try to get into the AZ salt mine(forgot name) tourney because I live nearby.

 

[Delta-cod]

A video would help significantly to explain what you're talking about. As it stands, everything you're saying sounds like perfect play Yoshi against a mediocre Sheik, which is the pinnacle of bad theorycrafting. Seeing you put your ideas into practice would help persuade everyone.

 

[YoHeKing]

A video would help? Sadly I have no tourney replays but I know some good sheiks online that I always fight. If online play would still help I wouldnt mind some great sheik players if you guys know any. It would be better to fight. I have a crew with a great sheik and he has 4000 battles with her and he knows basicly all the combos and stuff. Would a few matches VS him help?

 

[Delta-cod]

Anything that you think provides a good demonstration of the match up would help.

 

[Zajice]

Also Delta nah don't think she can grab the ledge with bouncing fish, but she can do dumb stuff like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTOH6-bjrXU#t=25s

Reading through this thread because I play both characters, so it interests me. I can safely say, yes she can grab the ledge with floppy fish, kick or not. It can make doing those wall bounce fishes a little awkward if you get close to the ledge on the rebound, since you have to keep holding down to avoid auto grabbing it.


Also, the patch won't help Yoshi much with this matchup. From our testing over at Sheik boards, her changes are pretty minor, save for bair.

- Bair doesn't kill anymore, and the does 2% less (7% medium hit, 8% sweetspot). Didn't kill Mario center of FD in training until 191% sweetspotted.
- D-tilt does 2% less (5%).
+ Bouncing fish kills 2% earlier.
+ Vanish kills 6% earlier.

And that's all that's changed really. She'll still harass with fair all day, and bouncing fish will kill you very very very slightly earlier.


I don't really have much I can offer in advice, as I don't fight any Sheiks with Yoshi, only the other way around. A lot of what I say would be theorycrafting.

 

[Chrisgopher]

...I have a crew with a great sheik and he has 4000 battles with her and he knows basicly all the combos and stuff. Would a few matches VS him help?

Waiting for the movies...

 

[YoHeKing]

Reading through this thread because I play both characters, so it interests me. I can safely say, yes she can grab the ledge with floppy fish, kick or not. It can make doing those wall bounce fishes a little awkward if you get close to the ledge on the rebound, since you have to keep holding down to avoid auto grabbing it.


Also, the patch won't help Yoshi much with this matchup. From our testing over at Sheik boards, her changes are pretty minor, save for bair.

- Bair doesn't kill anymore, and the does 2% less (7% medium hit, 8% sweetspot). Didn't kill Mario center of FD in training until 191% sweetspotted.
- D-tilt does 2% less (5%).
+ Bouncing fish kills 2% earlier.
+ Vanish kills 6% earlier.

And that's all that's changed really. She'll still harass with fair all day, and bouncing fish will kill you very very very slightly earlier.


I don't really have much I can offer in advice, as I don't fight any Sheiks with Yoshi, only the other way around. A lot of what I say would be theorycrafting.

We could battle. Maybe its my style of play? I focus on agression and not eggs depending on the MU. I win alot of tourneys too but if you do main sheik and your good we should battle. I have 23,000 KOs with yoshi 3DS+Wiiu so I know alot. Yoshi is at like 60% of my gameplay so maybe its just my extreme knowledge about yoshi that helps me with the MU.

Asked my freinds/rivals that play sheik why they hate yoshi and why they think a really high level Yoshi can beat a really high levelsheik. They said because his speed, combo breaker and lack of defensive play. They also said they never have chances to use needles or charge them.
And getting the kill.

 

[Delta-cod]

Merged your posts. YoHeKing, you must stop double posting. Use the edit button.

Could you link us to these tournament results you have? I'm also finding the statements that your Sheik friends are saying to be pretty wrong, and indicative of them not being good. I'm pretty sure I could beat most Yoshis here with Sheik just because I know how Yoshi works.

 

[Sinister Slush]

You can beat your X character with anyone if you know how your X character works though.

 

[Delta-cod]

Not if the MU is incredibly skewed. Like, I doubt I could beat most Yoshis with like, Bowser or something.

However, I'm pretty sure it's easy to shut Yoshi down with Sheik if you actually know what's happening.

 

[YoHeKing]

="Delta-cod, post: 18992227, member: 150187"]Merged your posts. YoHeKing, you must stop double posting. Use the edit button.

Could you link us to these tournament results you have? I'm also finding the statements that your Sheik friends are saying to be pretty wrong, and indicative of them not being good. I'm pretty sure I could beat most Yoshis here with Sheik just because I know how Yoshi works.

Like I said im new to smashboards. Dont know how to link results but they say they can handle Yoshi really well and always say its just your skill level not the MU. I disagree though. They always beat Yoshis all the time. I watch them 2 stock them in actuall tourneys. Ill get some replays of course though!

I wouldnt mind some MUs against your sheik so you can understand what im talking about.