Moveset Speculation and Discussion Thread

[meowmere]

Is Corrin's neutral b like Lucario's or Mewtwo's which you can store and use at a later point or more like Greninja's which has to be used right away?

 

[MajorMajora]

Is Corrin's neutral b like Lucario's or Mewtwo's which you can store and use at a later point or more like Greninja's which has to be used right away?

It looks like greninja's. Though I believe Zamus's stun gun is a more apt analogy.

 

[Deleted member]

Is Corrin's neutral b like Lucario's or Mewtwo's which you can store and use at a later point or more like Greninja's which has to be used right away?

We don't know yet but I'm betting on something similar to Greninja.

 

[Zult]

Is Corrin's neutral b like Lucario's or Mewtwo's which you can store and use at a later point or more like Greninja's which has to be used right away?

Doubt it. That would be borderline OP. But it charges fast (around half a second), and opponents are stunned for so long that you could probably follow up with a RAR bair (assuming it kills), tipper fsmash, and maybe even a running upsmash.

Also, I know we've talked about this before, but Corrin's dragon lunge is looking so fast. I can just imagine short hopping around and baiting opponents in waiting for them to make a mistake and punishing them with this.

 

[Pedker]

Is Corrin's neutral b like Lucario's or Mewtwo's which you can store and use at a later point or more like Greninja's which has to be used right away?

It should be like Greninja's
edit: whoops when i posted this there were already answers to it lol

 

[Smashifer]

Is Corrin's neutral b like Lucario's or Mewtwo's which you can store and use at a later point or more like Greninja's which has to be used right away?

It's like Greninja WS and ZSS' Paralyzer; they must be used right after charging.

EDIT: Oops, the site plopped me down on the last page where his question originally was, and I hadn't noticed there was one more page.

 

[MajorMajora]

It's like Greninja WS and ZSS' Paralyzer; they must be used right after charging.

EDIT: Oops, the site plopped me down on the last page where his question originally was, and I hadn't noticed there was one more page.

SO I guess you could say you got.

'd.

 

[Smashifer]

SO I guess you could say you got.

'd.

Greninja is unamused by your antics

 

[meowmere]

What's important as well is how far the fully charged projectile will travel. Honestly, I don't think it will travel far due to its low charge time and the sheer size of the projectile itself.

 

[LevinViolin]

So after looking through the direct again I found a clip where we can see at least some of the range on Corrin's fully charged Dragon Fang Shot.
Pay attention to the male Corrin on the right here.
Obviously this may not be the full distance of the move, but it's the best footage there is of Corrin's neutral special being used at range.

The player lined themselves up pretty neatly before they activated the move, so I was able to compared the range of what we saw to Zero Suit Samus' paralyzer. Zero Suit's fully chanrged paralyzer, from where Corrin was standing on Castle Siege, went until just before it reached the middle of the left platform. Based on the only footage we have ZSS has more range with her neutral special than Corrin, but the range of the two moves are comparable. I was unable to test for speed, but it certainly seems faster than ZSS' paralyzer. As far as the size of the move, I tested the hitbox of Wii Fit Trainer's Sun Salutation (in the same spot on CS) and found that it took a very nearly fully charged sun to hit Ryu on the edge of the left platform. Human error almost definitely be present, but I'd estimate WFT's sun salutation was around 7 frames from being fully charged before it would hit Ryu. This means that the size of Dragon Fang Shot is at least that size. It also seemed to charge faster than the paralyzer, but that may be my imagination. After watching it again they seem pretty much the same

Again, this is all speculation based on the segment the direct provided provided. This may not even be a fully charged Dragon Fang Shot for all I know. I'm 90% positive that it has more distance than what was shown.

I think that the large size of the move and its speed are certainly really interesting. If we're also to believe the earlier parts of this thread that Corrin's neutral special potentially has more stun time than ZSS then things get pretty interesting. Personally I think that the bite portion of the Dragon Fang Shot may be mandatory and will add a lot of lag after the projectile is fired. The large size, speed, and stun time may compensate for that, so ZSS and Corrin may have the same amount of frames on average to follow up. If all this turns out to be true, and this is how the move is balanced, Corrin's doubles potential skyrockets if you ask me.

 

[alguidrag]

I would know how fast you can make a uncharged shot of Dragon fang shot (I thinking of some combos with dragon lunge)

 

[Patriot Duck]

I would know how fast you can make a uncharged shot of Dragon fang shot (I thinking of some combos with dragon lunge)

You can see what appears to be the uncharged version here. It's decently quick, I suppose.

 

[LordShade67]

So, 'cause I'm bored, I decided to analyze Corrin frame data-wise as best I can. Obviously, these are estimates, so everything here is best taken with the grains of salt this character created when they were revealed(I'm sorry. I had to. ), Also, because the trailer 30FPS, my estimates are probably also bad off.

General

Spoiler

JumpSquat: 4 or 5, though I counted 4.

Jab

Spoiler

Startup: 3 or 4 for hit 1; 3 for hit 2; 4 for last single hit.
FAF: Who knows.

Dash Attack

Spoiler

Startup: 6
FAF: No idea. Damn hitpauses.

FTilt

Spoiler

Startup: 5, maybe 4.
FAF: At least 17.

UTilt

Spoiler

Startup: 4?
FAF: around 16ish?

DTilt

Spoiler

Startup: 3, it looked like.
FAF: 16

FSmash

Spoiler

Startup: 5 on the Fang.
FAF: No clue. 12ish?

FAir

Spoiler

Startup: 5 AT LEAST.
Landing lag: 10, it looked like.

BAir

Spoiler

Startup: 7?
Landing Lag: Dunno.

DAir

Spoiler

Startup: 6 or 7?
Landing Lag: lol.

Dragon Lunge:

Spoiler

Startup: 5 in the air it looked like.

 

[Patriot Duck]

I'm pretty sure since it's a 30 FPS video of a 60 FPS game you have to double the frames you count, and even then it can vary. For example, Lucas's frame 7 forward tilt appears to be frame 4 in his 30 FPS trailer. At any rate, those FAFs are far too quick to be possible.

 

[Pedker]

BAir
Startup: 7?
Landing Lag: Dunno.

There's no way that's frame 7 lol. I'm pretty sure he has an animation of him whipping out his wings. It's always nice to have numbers, though

 

[LordShade67]

I'm pretty sure since it's a 30 FPS video of a 60 FPS game you have to double the frames you count, and even then it can vary. For example, Lucas's frame 7 forward tilt appears to be frame 4 in his 30 FPS trailer. At any rate, those FAFs are far too quick to be possible.

Yeeeeeah, I probably should've reworded FAF to like IASA or something? I dunno. We won't really know until February, anyways.

 

[Pedker]

Yeeeeeah, I probably should've reworded FAF to like IASA or something? I dunno. We won't really know until February, anyways.

But I think IASA frames would be like almost impossible to tell from a trailer lol. We sit back till February, then.

 

[Delzethin]

But I think IASA frames would be like almost impossible to tell from a trailer lol. We sit back till February, then.

Yeah, it'll be hard to know any exact numbers until February--even startup frames we can only narrow down to a small range. It could end up working in our favor, though, if past precedent means anything. Cloud's ftilt and nair didn't look very good in his trailer, but it turns out the former's FAF is earlier than the trailer made it seem and the latter is freaking amazing.

 

[Deleted member]

Just noticed that at 5:03 Corrin is double jumping. If Zult wants to make a gfycat of it.

 

[Zult]

Just noticed that at 5:03 Corrin is double jumping. If Zult wants to make a gfycat of it.

Falco respawns on the halo and Corrin's jump height seems to even with it or slightly higher. We can use that as a mark and jump with other characters to compare.

 

[meowmere]

Falco respawns on the halo and Corrin's jump height seems to even with it or slightly higher. We can use that as a mark and jump with other characters to compare.

But we don't know if Corrin's first jump is a full hop.

 

[Planty]

meowmere If that's a short hop.........

Assuming (and probably being right) the total jump height looks a bit lower than Rosalina's.

Does anybody have footage of Corrin's fastfall speed?

 

[A Crackling Fool]

Overall where do you think corrin will be on the tier list?

 

[Zult]

No lower than mid tier just looking at the tools he has. We have yet to see any kill confirms or kill set ups. A lot of other things play a role in determining how good Corrin will be too. I'm placing bets on top of high tier or low of top tier. Looking like he will be the 2nd best sword character behind MK in my opinion. This is just my speculation though, like the thread title suggests. A lot of people seem to focusing on dragon lunge, but I think dragon fang might be more important. He definitely has tools to compete. It just depends if those tools can work together.

But also, no non-veteran DLC character has been below high tier because they're not restricted in making the character have the same moves as in previous games. Ryu being top tier and Cloud being high tier. And Cloud is only high tier because of his recovery problems and his weak throws. Corrin is confirmed to snap on the ledge, and his down throw looks like it can combo. Up throw might kill if it's like Roy's, Marth's, and Lucina's. So there is hope for Corrin being good. People are mostly worried about his mobility. His full hop looks average, and short hop looks at least decent. Jump height looks at least average. Air mobility and ground speed are kinda unknowns. Pretty hard to accurately determine that from a video. And nobody knows about his fast fall and walking. As long as all of those are average and above given his tools I would say he's AT LEAST mid tier. Now if he ends up having useful throws then that would bump him up to high tier. I just can't see Corrin being bad. The only question is how good he will be.

 

[LordShade67]

It's very hard to say without actually, you know, labbing them.

That's the main thing that concerns me: Their throws. Or specifically the combo game from them. Marth/Lucina's are really only good for positioning(F/BThrow), UThrow's for killing, and DThrow's for landing traps. Roy's are DI-reliant and stop working at early %s.

 

[Delzethin]

Falco respawns on the halo and Corrin's jump height seems to even with it or slightly higher. We can use that as a mark and jump with other characters to compare.

We can't rely on that gif, though. It cuts away before the respawn halo stops moving and before Corrin's double jump reaches its apex.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

So, 'cause I'm bored, I decided to analyze Corrin frame data-wise as best I can. Obviously, these are estimates, so everything here is best taken with the grains of salt this character created when they were revealed(I'm sorry. I had to. ), Also, because the trailer 30FPS, my estimates are probably also bad off.

General

Spoiler

JumpSquat: 4 or 5, though I counted 4.

Jab

Spoiler

Startup: 3 or 4 for hit 1; 3 for hit 2; 4 for last single hit.
FAF: Who knows.

Dash Attack

Spoiler

Startup: 6
FAF: No idea. Damn hitpauses.

FTilt

Spoiler

Startup: 5, maybe 4.
FAF: At least 17.

UTilt

Spoiler

Startup: 4?
FAF: around 16ish?

DTilt

Spoiler

Startup: 3, it looked like.
FAF: 16

FSmash

Spoiler

Startup: 5 on the Fang.
FAF: No clue. 12ish?

FAir

Spoiler

Startup: 5 AT LEAST.
Landing lag: 10, it looked like.

BAir

Spoiler

Startup: 7?
Landing Lag: Dunno.

DAir

Spoiler

Startup: 6 or 7?
Landing Lag: lol.

Dragon Lunge:

Spoiler

Startup: 5 in the air it looked like.

There is no way his Fsmash is frame 5 or anything close to that. We really aren't gonna know his frame data till he comes out. 29 FPS is just... it sucks.

 

[Z1GMA]

Due to obvious reasons, In DLC Character Trailers, only the characters' strenghts are shown.

What are you guessing is going to be Corrin's weakness(es)?

 

[Deleted member]

Due to obvious reasons, In DLC Character Trailers, only the characters' strenghts are shown.

What are you guessing is going to be Corrin's weakness(es)?

Honestly, I feel like killing could feasibly be an issue.

I mean, yes, she has a ZSS-esque paralyzer with a built-in followup at point blank that does huge damage, but the other ground killing tools as far as I can see would only be her Smash attacks, which, granted, probably have respectable killing power when tippered. But that's just it, I feel like Corrin's insane range on her Smash attacks might actually hurt her a bit because of the amount of space she requires for maximum knockback, and we all know how much later Marth kills when he can't get his tippers, and I feel like this could be worse because Corrin needs even more space than Marth does. And at close range I'm doubtful that N-B -> Chomp will be fast enough for Corrin to reasonably use as a kill option for someone who is constantly in her space.

Aside from that, I feel like Bair will be a good kill option in the air, as well as possibly Uair, but none of her other aerials look like kill moves.

The only other good option that I think may be a possibility would be U-B because it seemed like that had some decent knockback although we'll have to wait and see.

Of course, Corrin could have kill or kill setup throws, but at this point I think the best bet would be for U-throw to be a kill throw, F-Throw and B-Throw I doubt will be kill throws, and D-Throw seems too laggy for kill followups.

Granted, Corrin's final frames on this stuff will probably be different from how they were shown in the trailer, but I'm going to err on the pessimistic side for now.

 

[LordShade67]

There is no way his Fsmash is frame 5 or anything close to that. We really aren't gonna know his frame data till he comes out. 29 FPS is just... it sucks.

Hence the disclaimer in the post.

 

[Zult]

Due to obvious reasons, In DLC Character Trailers, only the characters' strenghts are shown.

What are you guessing is going to be Corrin's weakness(es)?

Assuming her mobility is anything but trash tier, I'd say her weakness will be killing. I can definitely see some set ups with the projectile (dragon fang). Dragon fang into RAR bair, running upsmash, tipper fsmash, and maybe even the up b if it kills. But dragon fang doesn't beat shield, and at high level play you need throws that actually do things. It's not uncommon for good players to be living against fox until almost 200% because his grabs are so bad. All you do is shield against him at high percents when you're unsure what to do or being pressured and make sure you don't drop it. So unless Corrin has throws that actually makes the opponent scared of being grabbed I see him having the same problem. To be honest, I'm quite satisfied with everything I see from Corrin. The only one thing I'm worried about is grabs. Grabs are very important. Character's spots on tier lists are influenced heavily by if they have a decent grab. Corrin is gonna have weaknesses like everyone else I'm sure, I just hope it's not her grab because that's the worst weakness to have.

 

[Maraphy]

I'm interested in knowing if the kicks on Dragon Lunge will kill, and if they'll always connect. Lunge looked fast enough that it could be a pretty respectful killing move, but it depends on how strong that kick is.

 

[Pedker]

Due to obvious reasons, In DLC Character Trailers, only the characters' strenghts are shown.

What are you guessing is going to be Corrin's weakness(es)?

Definitely scared about kill power. I think the most important thing about Corrin that we don't know is if his U-throw kills it definitely has an animation that would suit it. If it doesn't, then like Zult said, people can just shield at high percents. A killing U-throw would both pressure opponents at high percent neutral games AND fix his killing flaw to an extent.

 

[Delzethin]

I've spent most of the last week working on a video that gathers the information we've been putting together...and now it's finally done.

 

[Pedker]

I've spent most of the last week working on a video that gathers the information we've been putting together...and now it's finally done.

Amazing work on this video! Looks great.
Btw, I believe the third taunt was shown.

 

[PGP]

I think Corrin is going to have a super hard time killing rush-down characters, which tends to be a huge detriment in today's meta. Like others have stated, unless he has absurdly good frame data, he will likely be rushed-down and be unable to space well. I think this will especially be problematic when it comes to killing, as he needs to keep considerable space between him and his opponent in order for some of his strongest attacks to kill, meaning the opponent can stay in his face and there will be nothing he can do. This would be off-set if any of his specials/tilts (or his charging smash attack thing) act as good get-off-me type moves or is his grab is particularly quick, which is what I hope will be case.

On the other hand, I think that Corrin will be extremely good is he can keep his space and will have the upper-hand in non-rushdown MUs. I think bair will easily be his best move. It looks super quick and it auto-spaces. I wonder whether or not it will have a windbox and whether he'll retain his momentum on the ground if he uses it right before he lands. Dtilit, fair, and up air also look very promising, with dtilt looking like it will be a great combo starter. I think Dragon Lunge looks pretty gimmicky and is likely to go pretty unused, although looking at some of the footage from the trailer it does seem like he'll be able to combo off of the kicks, which I feel like would be an incredible option if you can kick fairly quickly after stabbing the ground and so long as you don't have to pin the opponent to do the kick (although I think we saw moments in the trailer where that happened). That could act as a good mix-up. From the extremely limited knowledge we have, I'd put him around MK/Wario/Roy on the tier list.

 

[Patriot Duck]

I've spent most of the last week working on a video that gathers the information we've been putting together...and now it's finally done.

Nice video, but I wanted to point out one thing. When discussing Corrin's back air, you mentioned that neither character had a smoking effect, proving it to have strong killing power. While it may be a good kill move, we have reason to believe that certain character effects get edited out for the trailers. For example, in Greninja's trailer, he goes into his helpless state without the flashing that usually accompanies it. Furthermore, in Duck Hunt's trailer, he goes into his shielding pose without the shield actually showing up. It's possible that they also removed any instances of the rage effect to make the videos look nicer.

Like I said though, you're probably right about the back air being a kill move, otherwise they wouldn't have shown it killing in the trailer. I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

 

[WhiteMageBD]

It would also be interesting to know Corrin's jump height. I couldn't find any clip that clearly showed his maximum height. Corrin jumps many times during the gameplay scenes, but it's really difficult to figure out whether Corrin jumps as high as he can or not.

watch the part in his presentation when he kills falco with dragon fang shot, he does both his jumps right afterwards.

 

[WhiteMageBD]

Is Corrin's neutral b like Lucario's or Mewtwo's which you can store and use at a later point or more like Greninja's which has to be used right away?

its the same has zss neutral b

 

[WhiteMageBD]

Yes and it comes out on frame 6 in the air, so really fast. Grounded version is useful when you get a roll read or something similar, otherwise the airborne version looks much more interesting.

Can you give me a link of your corrin frame data please?