Moveset Speculation and Discussion Thread

[NachoOfCheese]

I took some time to analyse the video frame by frame yesterday and I came up with a frame data sheet.

Damn nice work. If that data is close to what it actually is then that is some sexy frame data. Especially on his aerials and tilts.

 

[Deleted member]

Damn nice work. If that data is close to what it actually is then that is some sexy frame data. Especially on his aerials and tilts.

I hope I got it mostly right and don't get people hopes down
Also, I really think by the look of it, dair is disjointed. I think in fact that a lot of moves that use the extended part of Corrin's body, like side B and all the smash attacks will be disjointed. Plus, if the sword moves are disjointed too... This character is going to be very, very interesting.

 

[Kodystri]

Hm how do you exactly analysis frame by frame? just curious

 

[Kodystri]

Because if that is the case, step aside Mario, we got the new Ebola Up Smash

 

[Deleted member]

Hm how do you exactly analysis frame by frame? just curious

I download the video in 720p, use Quicktime on Mac to play it and navigate frame by frame with the keyboard arrows.
When the move hits, I note the first hitbox and then I count the number of frames for the next FAF.
Sometimes, like Fsmash, it might be slightly less accurate because the person is almost always away and not next to Corrin, so the hitbox might start sooner. When the move doesn't hit anyone, I note the frame where there is a visual indication, like a flash or a little star or light.

Because if that is the case, step aside Mario, we got the new Ebola Up Smash

I don't think that will be the case. The hitbox is rather small and looks like a good anti-air tool, it doesn't reach from the sides on start.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Keep in mind: we still don't have air speed or damage output values on any move. There is still a chance that these are key factors in balancing Corrin. Another important thing to note is the possible lack of throw combos. I'm not saying Corrin is gonna be bad, but like, don't expect an amazing character before we know this stuff. Example: imagine if Toon Link was announced as DLC and there was a trailer showing off him off. On paper, we've got a speedy character with 3 projectiles, a zair, great frame data, fast kill moves, disjointed range... but... he's still pretty underwhelming in reality due to low damage output and a sub-par grab game.

Remember that.

 

[Kodystri]

I download the video in 720p, use Quicktime on Mac to play it and navigate frame by frame with the keyboard arrows.
When the move hits, I note the first hitbox and then I count the number of frames for the next FAF.
Sometimes, like Fsmash, it might be slightly less accurate because the person is almost always away and not next to Corrin, so the hitbox might start sooner. When the move doesn't hit anyone, I note the frame where there is a visual indication, like a flash or a little star or light.



I don't think that will be the case. The hitbox is rather small and looks like a good anti-air tool, it doesn't reach from the sides on start.

If it has that speed, it still looks amazingly good

 

[Delzethin]

Props to @PommePatate for getting some preliminary frame data ironed out. Now we have something to work with!

...Although we should definitely have more people try it for themselves so we have a better idea of the truth. I mean, some of those moves seem absurdly fast for their range...

...But if you're on the money about Corrin's run speed, it's nice to know he's actually only barely below average.

 

[Altair357]

Props to @PommePatate for getting some preliminary frame data ironed out. Now we have something to work with!

...Although we should definitely have more people try it for themselves so we have a better idea of the truth. I mean, some of those moves seem absurdly fast for their range...

...But if you're on the money about Corrin's run speed, it's nice to know he's actually only barely below average.

No, Kirby's new run speed is the same as ROB's. ROB is currently 29th in run speed. Ryu is tied for 27th. 58 divided by 2 is exactly 29. Corrin's run speed is better than 29th and this puts him at above average. Even if one takes into consideration ROB dropping to 30th if Bayonetta is faster, this still puts Corrin at 29th and exactly average.

Okay that's not actually average but it's at least median.

 

[alguidrag]

For the Trailer, i think his aerials hardly kill(except Bair that seems able to kill), maybe it was just for the trailer, but is sad anyways(because I love killing enemies with aerials)

 

[Pedker]

Sorry, I was on a holiday vacation, but now I'm back!

Going back to the topic of Corrin's Run Speed:
I was never aware that Pac Man could speed up his final smash! I went back to the video to find out whether Pac Man was using a sped-up or non-sped-up version of his final smash. Using the glorious and accurate method of 1/4 speed (both training mode and YouTube) and a stopwatch, Pac man took ~5 seconds to cross the section of the Omega Pokemon stage in the video. In training mode, I timed his sped-up version to cross the section in ~4 seconds, and his non-sped-up version took ~5 seconds. I believe that Pac Man was using a non-sped-up version of his final smash. It's true that Corrin could have been slow-running, or that numbers could have been altered to accommodate the comical scene that they wanted to create, but I believe that my original theory was correct: Corrin runs about as fast as ZSS walks.

If somebody would like to calculate his run speed from a more accurate fashion, I believe the best clips of him running would be from 6:48-6:58 in the entire broadcast, since this gameplay is very likely to be performed by CPU's. I don't have the tools or ideas to be able to calculate his run speed from this footage, but hopefully someone does!

The broadcast, linked at 6:48 for convenience:

TL;DR: Even though Pac man can speed up his final smash, I still believe that Corrin runs as fast as ZSS walks (after unprofessional testing).

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Is it possible to compare Corrin's run speed to the crate's speed?

 

[Delzethin]

We'd be best off using the clips that showed regular gameplay. That bit at the end could've messed with Pac and Corrin's attributes to make the joke work better.

Anyway, I thought of something earlier that makes Surge Counter reeeeeally interesting:

You know how sometimes you'll see a surprise kill when someone hits someone high, tries to chase them for the kill, whiffs, then gets killed themselves when their opponent punishes with an uair or up special?

Imagine the possibilities with a counter move designed to kill off the top.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

We'd be best off using the clips that showed regular gameplay. That bit at the end could've messed with Pac and Corrin's attributes to make the joke work better.

Anyway, I thought of something earlier that makes Surge Counter reeeeeally interesting:

You know how sometimes you'll see a surprise kill when someone hits someone high, tries to chase them for the kill, whiffs, then gets killed themselves when their opponent punishes with an uair or up special?

Imagine the possibilities with a counter move designed to kill off the top.

At 2:09, there's a small portion where Corrin runs.

Or imagine Counter Surge as a way to finish of juggles from Corrin's side,
Up air, up air, up air, read counter attack, Counter Surge.

 

[young grasshopper]

Or imagine Counter Surge as a way to finish of juggles from Corrin's side,
Up air, up air, up air, read counter attack, Counter Surge.

Let me just say, that would be hype

 

[Planty]

At the part where they show how Bair pushes you forward, we see Corrin's airspeed without it. It looks... slow. A bit like Fox's actually.

 

[Zult]

So corrins throws look pretty lacklustre tbh, do you think any of them might be good combo or kill throws?

I think down throw should be good. Dark Pit didn't go too far, and he probably didn't get thrown at 0. Up throw is looking like a kill throw (like many other FE characters, I just hope it's faster). Forward and back throw -look- pretty useless. Don't have high hopes for them.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Down throw didnt send him too far but it looked like it had a lot of endlag. I would be surprised if he had a good grab game. That wouldn't really make sense from a balance standpoint.

 

[Zult]

Well the 2 new characters we've gotten (Ryu and Cloud) have lackluster grabs, so I wouldn't be surprised. But I have some hope. Having a grab follow up is gonna be important imo

 

[NekoJubei]

Corrin's Up Air is most likely going to be Frame 9
Just like Marth,Lucina and Roy whose Corrin have the same animation for it
EDIT: Omg did i said frame 9 lol i meant Frame 5

 

[Altair357]

Forward and back throw -look- pretty useless. Don't have high hopes for them.

How can they look like anything if we don't even know their damage and knockback.

 

[Zult]

How can they look like anything if we don't even know their damage and knockback.

I'm just going by a gut feeling. Looking at his forward and back throw, seems like it has some endlag when he is switching from a dragon back to a human. Hopefully we don't have to wait for his changing animation to perform another action.

Based on everything I've seen, Corrin is looking pretty solid. If he were to have good throw follow ups off of down throw (looking at the down throw in the trailer, it looks like down throw should lead into something http://smashboards.com/attachments/vzwjx-gif.88752/), then he'll definitely be high tier in my opinion. And maybe, just maybe, an up throw that kills? That would be the icing on the cake.

Dragon lunge looks cool and all, but a character is gonna need more than a gimmick to be viable. And is this meta, having a good grab game is key. He might be the first top tier swordsman character in my opinion minus MK. And also might be Rosa's worst nightmare if he can fsmash luma from afar without worrying about getting punished.

But all of this is my own theory, so take it with a gain of salt. But if the pattern continues with new characters (not veterans) being really good like Ryu (top tier) and Cloud (high tier) then Bayonetta and Corrin just might also be very good. I'd say at least high tier. I hope so! I love characters with wings and swords! Pit is my main if you haven't noticed ^-^

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Thats what people said about Palutena

 

[Zult]

What did they say?

 

[Pedker]

What did they say?

I wasn't there, but I'd assume that people expected Palutena to be high/top tier from her trailer, and look at her now. We honestly don't know a whole lot until we get our actual hands on Corrin.

 

[alguidrag]

About Pac-man FS vs Kamui/Corrin speed remember Pac's trailer where he uses his FS against Sonic,mario and Megaman
https://youtu.be/dVz-2VuAYlY

 

[Pedker]

About Pac-man FS vs Kamui/Corrin speed remember Pac's trailer where he uses his FS against Sonic,mario and Megaman
https://youtu.be/dVz-2VuAYlY

Interesting! I'll investigate this in training mode. I'll edit this post

From the same non-professional methods used eariler, I believe this clip has Pac-Man using a slow version of his FS. Ironically, according to KuroganeHammer, Sonic's walk speed is almost identical to ZSS's... so this doesn't tell us much. We still don't know if Corrin was slow-running.

 

[Zult]

Corrin seemed pretty fast here https://youtu.be/VlsHNw8PuUM?t=239

And that nair is lookin pretty good

 

[Pedker]

Corrin seemed pretty fast here https://youtu.be/VlsHNw8PuUM?t=239

And that nair is lookin pretty good

I posted the same time stamp not too many posts ago, but yeah it doesn't look too bad at the very least.

Nair definitely looks amazing, because it hits both sides at the same time. Looks like a great OoS option

 

[meowmere]

Hey everyone! I'd like to thank everyone in this thread for gathering so much useful information about Corrin and their moveset. I'm honestly excited to play them, and I hope they turn out to be as good as they sound. He seems to be a pretty agile character, and as we all know, the majority of characters that are considered high/top tier are very fast, which leads me to believe that Corrin will be a solid choice for anyone who wants to play a great character. I hope the ending lag on his aerials is low, because honestly, that's a major drawback for all FE characters right now, or at least for Marth/Lucina, which I currently main (that said, I switch mains all the time because I want to mix up my gameplay and learn about each character).

Another thing I hope Corrin will have are good throws. As far as I know, no FE character has a kill throw, so my expectations are low for that, however Corrin's up throw turns them into a dragon, which has always been an indication of strength (obviously). A down throw that leads into combos would also be nice of course, but the angle is to wide I think (you can see his d-throw once in the entire presentation, in the last part of it, but I don't know the time stamp).

I also think that we should only speculate. We don't know anything for sure, and maybe they will have changed a few things once Corrin is released. But speculating is always fun! I'm looking forward to the next posts in this thread! :D

 

[Yikarur]

Ike has a kill throw and dthrow should be one too. Looks too powerful to not be one.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I'm already happy Corrin has a grab that ends sooner than frame 29378 #JustPacManThings

 

[meowmere]

I'm already happy Corrin has a grab that ends sooner than frame 29378 #JustPacManThings

Yeah, Pac Man's grab can be punished so easily... Kinda reminds of ZSS's grab.

In my opinion, a good grab game is very important for a character, you can tell that by the fact that almost every top tier has a superb one.

 

[meowmere]

Btw, thanks to PommePatate we have good info on Corrins run speed, but I have found a little clip in the presentation that shows off their run speed better than any other clip, I think.

The video starts at 3:04, where Corrin runs beneath the left platform on battlefield. The clip is short, but it's useful nonetheless since Corrin's initial dash is included. Also, their running speed in this clip is mostly likely not altered, because theirs absolutely no reason why it should be in this part of the video, as opposed to the clip with Pac Man.

 

[Planty]

If Corrin has a good throw game, I will be shocked. Giving a character a poor grab game is like the easy way to balance characters that would be OP otherwise. And if you notice, most characters that are very reliant on out-ranging the opponent tend to have horrid throws (and Corrin is looking to be the most spacing heavy in the game). U-throw MIGHT kill though.

As far as I know, no FE character has a kill throw

They all have kill throws. Marth, Lucina, and Roy can kill with U-throw at ~165% (But I think Roy's kills a little bit later, like just a few percent later). Ike's D-throw kills at ~150%. Robin's B-throw kills at ~130%, if I recall correctly (But the checkmate combo still kills earlier so who cares...)

 

[Zult]

I wouldn't say Corrin is very reliant on spacing like Marth or Lucina. Corrin is looking like an aggressive swordsman. And characters like Pit and Roy have excellent early or mid grab combos and they aren't broken in the slightest. Not asking for Metaknight or ZSS grab game where you get 30% from one grab, but anything will be useful. Without a grab game, if you don't kill super early (like Ryu or Cloud) then I just can't see Corrin being any higher then the low part of high tier if he will just lose to shield. But Corrin's down throw is looking promising. Now if they were to give Corrin a combo throw with down throw AND a kill throw with up throw then oh my goodness that will be insane.

 

[Altair357]

I'm just going by a gut feeling. Looking at his forward and back throw, seems like it has some endlag when he is switching from a dragon back to a human. Hopefully we don't have to wait for his changing animation to perform another action.

Based on everything I've seen, Corrin is looking pretty solid. If he were to have good throw follow ups off of down throw (looking at the down throw in the trailer, it looks like down throw should lead into something http://smashboards.com/attachments/vzwjx-gif.88752/), then he'll definitely be high tier in my opinion. And maybe, just maybe, an up throw that kills? That would be the icing on the cake.

Dragon lunge looks cool and all, but a character is gonna need more than a gimmick to be viable. And is this meta, having a good grab game is key. He might be the first top tier swordsman character in my opinion minus MK. And also might be Rosa's worst nightmare if he can fsmash luma from afar without worrying about getting punished.

But all of this is my own theory, so take it with a gain of salt. But if the pattern continues with new characters (not veterans) being really good like Ryu (top tier) and Cloud (high tier) then Bayonetta and Corrin just might also be very good. I'd say at least high tier. I hope so! I love characters with wings and swords! Pit is my main if you haven't noticed ^-^

Throw endlag doesn't matter beyond whether it combos or not. Back throws don't normally combo so what determines back throw's viability is going to be the angle, damage, and knockback, none of which we really know at this point.

Also, I don't actually remember what his fthrow looks like, when does that happen?

 

[Zult]

Throw endlag doesn't matter beyond whether it combos or not. Back throws don't normally combo so what determines back throw's viability is going to be the angle, damage, and knockback, none of which we really know at this point.

Also, I don't actually remember what his fthrow looks like, when does that happen?

https://media.giphy.com/media/QLUVPtvkMx3pK/giphy.gif

 

[meowmere]

Based on everything I've seen, Corrin is looking pretty solid. If he were to have good throw follow ups off of down throw (looking at the down throw in the trailer, it looks like down throw should lead into something http://smashboards.com/attachments/vzwjx-gif.88752/), then he'll definitely be high tier in my opinion. And maybe, just maybe, an up throw that kills? That would be the icing on the cake.

Like I said previously, it's hard to make any assumptions based on a trailer (well, this clip technically isn't in the trailer anymore, but it doesn't matter) but I really don't think the d-throw will have good follow-ups. Maybe Dark Pit was at a very high percentage in this particular case, but generally the angle of the throw is just not suited for combos, or at least that's what I think.

But whether Corrin has some nice throw combos to work with or not, I believe they will be a strong character either way, because apart from those who download every DLC anyway, not many people are willing to pay for a character that's not even viable. Sakurai and his (sadly) often forgotten team know this and try to create a character which is enjoyable, and the easiest way to accomplish this is by making them strong. The only exception I can think of is Lucas (and maybe Mewtwo, but he has been buffed tremendously), who is not a top tier character, but still viable nonetheless.

With all this taken into account, I'm happy and I'm really looking forward to Corrin's release. Of course Corrin was or is going to be implemented for the sake of advertising the new FE games, but I honestly don't care, because I like Corrin and I'm probably getting into FE now. So you can say the advertising completely worked on me, but as long as I get to play a new game and enjoy it, I wouldn't consider that a problem.

 

[Deleted member]

Welp... I finished calculating Corrin's speed with the video clip at 3:03 given by meowmere . Corrin run for 16 frames before entering jumpsquat, so I divided the run speed tier list in 8, and made them run for 16 frames. And guys, it's way beyond disappointing. I have no words... I really hope it's not his real speed. It can't be. It makes absolutely no sense to me.