Monty Python's Flying Mafia - SCUM VICTORY, Vult/Doop win the game!

[#HBC | Nabe]

I've liked your content even at parts where I disagree with it.

You are in the Fand/Vult area of I want you to stay around.

Context: Ryu telling Doop why he has a town read on Doop. Notice the town read on Vult (D1).

Ryu, was the Vult jail N2 as a town read or as a scum read? It seems clear at first but then #512 makes it unclear.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

@Dooplissity I will respond to you when I claim my role, reads and all. I want you going next. I will claim after you.

Why not you next?

ranmaru I am still waiting on this answer, even though the event has already taken place. Nothing in your claim suggests a reason for Doop to go before you, and I for one asked for you to go before Doop.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

A bit bugged by there being only two Holy Grail claimants, and by a criminal character claiming FBI Agent, but in the latter case most of the sketches don't seem to line up with roles anyway.

Maven89 what was ZV's character?

only one Holy Grail claimant*
I misunderstood Doop's claim.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Vult also wanted Ran to claim before Doop, it wasn't just me.

ranmaru Can you respond to my #742?

What post is this referring to, and has Ran responded yet?

 

[ranmaru]

I already responded and Doop and I further discussed Ryu. To Vult and Nabe, I was only going by reads.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

I would not rely roles when most of them are fake.

To confirm / make explicit, this means you agree with my assertion about the setup in 475?

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

To Vult and Nabe, I was only going by reads.

WRT claim order? But you called Vult "pretty townie" and Ryu "slightly townie" -- granted, these are squishy adverbs, but it's important as I'm looking for why claiming after Doop was important enough for you to make it so explicit in 487.

 

[ranmaru]

I do agree with it.

 

[ranmaru]

I put Vult as a scumlean. I wanted Doop to go first to make sure he or vult or nabe had no opportunity to fake a role. I was reading Ryu as town from his reaction but his reads still seem subpar, and I had no time to develop my read D2 because of the sudden Execution.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

I put Vult as a scumlean. I wanted Doop to go first to make sure he or vult or nabe had no opportunity to fake a role. I was reading Ryu as town from his reaction but his reads still seem subpar, and I had no time to develop my read D2 because of the sudden Execution.

You wanted Doop first? Or first before you? Does Doop claiming your exact role have any effect on your read on him?

 

[ranmaru]

First before me. My initial impression was that he was scum trying to force a 1v1 between him and myself. Yet I am not that sure yet. So it isn't effecting my read on him at the moment. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt here, but I need to re-read with all these roles in mind. I also would wonder about Vult's role as Gheb already flipped an information role, but between Vult and Ryu based on play, Ryu is not doing well for me.

 

[ranmaru]

I am going to shower. Will respond later.

 

[Vult Redux]

I remember for sure that "because ryu is a scumbag" post was a joke... I won't hold that against you though because there was another instance in this have iirc where my sarcasm didn't translate well to you.

I take this back. I've read Ran's case on me more closely and I feel like there are so many times that he takes half-jokes and sarcasm literally that I think he's doing it on purpose just to stretch a case on me.

"i like Ran today but tomorrow i will probably remember something scummy that he did and dislike him again."
when I said this I was highlighting the fact that I'd gone back-and-forth on my Ran read throughout D1 and expressing that my current town!Ran read wasn't strong. Ran says it's not justified... but early D1 I disliked his attitude toward my RVS posts, and later D1 I expressed that I liked some of his content (re: my #127). My Ran flip-flopping had a logical progression and so I think that admitting that I had been wavering on my Ran read is totally fair.

He also brought up my #189 ('he's [Ryu's] a scumbag who made up a read to appease the town and we caught him being unable to back it up"). He says that it looks fake and contradicts my reads later... but it was just so clearly a joke.

My memory of old games isn't that great but I don't remember having this problem with Ran before. I remember that we lynched Spak in Gheb's mafia partly because he was taking certain things literally and it came off as fake... feels the same here.

My last big concern is his insistence on wanting to claim after me... Like, even I had more information to reveal than he did. RR I can understand wanting to claim later. Nabe, RR, and I had the most information. Ran and Doopliss didn't have any relevant info on any players... thus were good candidates to volunteer to claim early. But Doopliss didn't push hard to try to claim later. Only Ran did.

 

[Vult Redux]

I wanted Doop to go first to make sure he or vult or nabe had no opportunity to fake a role.

can you talk about this more? given your posts post-claims, I find it hard to believe this.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

On second glance, I think ZV's role was real, as it's "Fake-Cop" and not "Fake Cop" i.e. he would have gotten results about whether or not a role was Fake.


So this is the setup v1:

Fake
Fake
Fake-Cop (gets Fake/Not Fake results)
Role Cop (gets role name, but not Fake/Not Fake)

Claims:
Me, Fake
Vult, Fake
Ryu, Jailer
Ran, Fake
Doop, Fake


We know there's a scum executioner. This is contrasted by the cop duo, which adds speed to the town figuring out the Fake ruse. But there's a question about whether or not that's enough in terms of balance, and while it's WIFOM in a sense, having two identical roles (Fake 1-Shot Vigilante) would also speed up the process for town figuring it out, but then it would also introduce a possible CC mislynch. That's not bad on balance.

So from my point of view, it's either Vult/Ryu or Ran/Doop. I lean towards Ran/Doop, because a jailer seems appropriate to counteract the scum executor. This wouldn't be a power counter, obviously, since executor would be a Day ability. Instead, Jailer would exist to possibly stop an NK, which would offset the discussion loss from the Town quicklynch, and more importantly counteract the scum execution being an alpha if used in lategame.

If there's no jailer, then Ryu is scum which opens up the possibility of Vult scum. There's also the outside possibility of Ran/Ryu (in which case Ran fakeclaimed an already-claimed role for some reason), but Ryu/Doop is completely out the window since Doop claimed 1-Shot Vig before Ran did. (Unless Doop made the luckiest claim ever, or had a counterclaim role supplied to him by the mod as a safeclaim. Both options are unlikely.) This means that Doop can only be scum with Ran, not with Ryu and certainly not with Vult.


Claiming 1-Shot Vig after a 1-Shot Vig claim is pretty ballsy if it's not true, but neither player acknowledging the strangeness of it suggests either: an implicit understanding that it works in the setup to balance things (but that's not what Doop claims), or indifference (this is what Doop claims), or that the claimants are both scum banking on a CC ploy to stay ahead. The latter is a bit weird (how does it pan out?) but Ran hasn't really answered as to why he had no response at all to CCing Doop. He liked Doop's post in which Doop says he's indifferent because the set-up is "bull****", and he said to Vult that "we shouldn't rely on roles when most of the roles are fake". But what's missing from this equation is Ran's initial reaction to Doop claiming the same role as him, which there should be, even if that reaction is "haha, it's funny that Maven did that!"


My vote is on Ran at this juncture, although I'm not going to put it down until we hear from Ryu. Ran is in my two most likely scum pairs (Ran/Doop and Ran/Ryu) and I think that Doop is scum, which as I said can only be with Ran.

Ran's playstyle throughout the game has been weirdly belligerent, with an air of supposed "no-nonsense", and just aggressive overall, beginning when he stopped playing RVS within the first page of the game and focused on Vult not voting because he was on mobile. He pursued this over multiple posts. Then he got into a tedious semantic argument with Fand over whether or not Fand's question had been answered satisfactorily, an argument he still aggressively insists was relevant and meaningful. During this, he came down on me for asking Spak what he thought of Ran/Fand while it was ongoing, even though if their interaction was meaningful (it wasn't).

That's just from memory. But it's indicative of Ran's play throughout the game, which has been to put more emphasis than is warranted on many player interactions. Ran has also repeatedly and firmly put down any attempt at opposition to what he's saying. The most recent example of this was when he told Doop, as if there were no room for question, "You are claiming next. I will claim after you." This is an example of the playstyle, not a claim that the statement is inherently scummy, but subsequent questions on his reasoning make his motivation questionable. Moreso, it serves as a recent example to showcase the pattern. Ran often plays town by asking a lot of questions and stating a lot of opinions, but I've never seen Ran be this combattive in doing so, and I've never seen him take so much meaning from so many things that have little to none.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

EBWOP
even though if their interaction was meaningful (it wasn't), it wouldn't have been at all hurt or blocked up or changed in importance by outside discussion, since it was about Fand's already-stated interpretation of a post versus Ran's already-stated interpretation of the same post.

 

[ranmaru]

Nabe, I would like to know why you asked about my questioning before I had a conclusion. It was definetly more meaningful then your questioning to me. Simply stating that without why you believe it isn't rubs me the wrong way. I am open to discussing it.

Besides that, I like your analysis about the setup. I like the point about the fake-cop. Me being aggressive doesn't mean anything, I usually am pretty aggressive. I don't see how it adds up to anything and what the point is of addressing it. I am usually 'no-nonsense' and I don't know what you actually expect and if your standard is a good method of reading me, plus you don't have a good record of reading me either.

On not CCing, I did not want to commit to cc or not CC, because this is no normal setup, si I defaulted to ignoring roles and focusing on play. I did just post my thoughts and role as soon as possible though, as I was writing that before hand.

 

[ranmaru]

Vult Redux I can't respond entirely but what jumps out to me is you saying I am strecthing 'half jokes' on purpose... Please tell me what you actually mean with the half jokes. Also you saying ryu was a scumbag did not seem like a joke to me, nor did you mention that as such when I asked you about it.

 

[ranmaru]

Yeah reading over Vults post again, I don't see it. I especially don't get why you woukd say that instead of bring up actuak quotes. That was not talking about my early play. I also don't see the reason for you to want me to claim later either, as that is unexplained.

I think I already explained why I wanted to go later. Since I have a fake role, it gives scum the incentive to fake claim. That was my thought, never did I make it seem like I had any information to give but 'my role is weird'.

 

[ranmaru]

*if they went after me*

 

[ranmaru]

Also, I don't remember playing with you before Vult. You should refresh my memory. Also I don't get why you bring up Spak as if he is me. All I get from your posts and Nabes is that you see my play is different from the past. I don't know what to say to that, I generally take rvs seriously and post actively, interact with others, etc. You both can find recent play from Corps in the mystery Mafia.

 

[ranmaru]

Also check Undertale. I replaced soups slot.

 

[Vult Redux]

Vult Redux I can't respond entirely but what jumps out to me is you saying I am strecthing 'half jokes' on purpose... Please tell me what you actually mean with the half jokes. Also you saying ryu was a scumbag did not seem like a joke to me, nor did you mention that as such when I asked you about it.

e.g. when I said "(lookin at you Nabe)" in post #253 (it was a joke because Nabe was one of the least active) and as part of your case you commented that "blames Nabe for the reason he won't post".

I brought up Spak in Gheb's Mafia because it's a super recent case of "taking things too literally" as a scumtell. I'm saying that some posts remind me of Spak's posts in that game (he was mafia).

Since I have a fake role, it gives scum the incentive to fake claim.

??? What do you mean by this?

I also was pretty sure my role is fake and also wanted to claim later because I had information to share that might conflict with someone's claim and catch a liar, but conceded after I saw RR and you were adamant. When you're adamant about claiming later... it gives the expectation that you have (for example) track results on Me/Doop/Nabe and could verify if someone was lying. That apparently was not the case.

The delay helps mafia!Ran way more than town!Ran. Town!Ran has nothing to gain from claiming later (i.e. you had no secret information to catch a liar with whereas, again, I DID). Mafia!Ran benefits because you get to claim without worrying about one of us catching you in a lie.

RR implied more strongly that he had information more than you did, true.

my point in summary is that you fought really hard to claim later when town!Ran should have been one of the first people to claim.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Context: Ryu telling Doop why he has a town read on Doop. Notice the town read on Vult (D1).

Ryu, was the Vult jail N2 as a town read or as a scum read? It seems clear at first but then #512 makes it unclear.

A little bit of both if that makes sense.

The only mafia role I thought Vult might have been was executioner based on his vote and the timing for when that execute dropped.

I spent the night trying to figure out if I should more more aggressive with it, jailing Fand was who I was thinking of using it on to catch mafia trying to send the kill out or Vult.

Spent time back and forth on this trying to figure it out. I thought I was overthinking my reads were wrong when Spak flipped town so I stuck with Vult again since I wanted to keep him around at least.

Vult claim also makes me think he isn't an executioner which was my main concern with him going into n2.

Jumbled thoughts but trying to make sense of what I am saying here as best as I can.

 

[Vult Redux]

(i.e. you had no secret information to catch a liar with whereas, again, I DID).

let me qualify this so there's no confusion. My outside info is that if someone had claimed Spiny Norman, they were probably anti-town. However, I realized that he might not didn't exist in the game and I didn't have concrete results from my investigations anyway. That's why I changed my mind and agreed to claim earlier (plus, I was expecting Ran and RR to have more relevant results than me).

Still, I did have more going for me than Ran did. ._.

 

[Vult Redux]

I stuck with Vult again since I wanted to keep him around at least.

so you're saying the goal was a protection rather than a block?

just clarifying

 

[ranmaru]

I still want to know why you feel I should have gone first. When I think of claim order, I think of from scummies to towniest. That's all. Yet you do acknowledge I was not implying I had results.

Vult, are your reads so far?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

so you're saying the goal was a protection rather than a block?

just clarifying

In the end yeah

 

[ranmaru]

What I mean is, since I am virtually a VT, then it would be safe for the person after me to fake claim.

 

[ranmaru]

Yet the thing is your problem is with results based on flavor and we all claimed flavor for you.

 

[ranmaru]

Vult, this whole game you are trying to fault me for 'taking things too literally' and saying some things are obvious... how about you take a serious stance so I don't misunderstand your intentions, because it looks like to me like miscommunication. I don't think you can really use meta as you did the same with gheb and he flipped town.

You only seem to mention this when I have problems with your play, but not in between. Are you saying I am selectively doing this to you and not anyone else, Vult?

 

[ranmaru]

Why did you question Doop and Nabe?
What is your read on me?
Why do you like Vult?

I have been patient. I was waiting for this massclaim to finish so we can talk reads. Nice that Doop is discussing my reads but you have yet to mention it.

 

[ranmaru]

That is for #HBC | Red Ryu

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Because both of them are in my trying to rethink pool along with you.

Becomingly less town to me as I read this day.

Because I doubt he is faking what he posted and have liked him since day 1.

 

[ranmaru]

You never read me as town before. I am having doubts about Ryu.

 

[ranmaru]

Vult Redux Talk to me about reads.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You never read me as town before. I am having doubts about Ryu.

Reads change over time, I liked you more than other slots.

This is changing.

 

[Vult Redux]

Vult Redux Talk to me about reads.

I'm trying to figure out who your partner could be.

Before the start of D3 I was 100% going to go after Nabe today (provided claims didn't confirm him town). Nabe was sitting with 2 votes needed to lynch for a while and could have been executed (Execute requires half votes, I assume). But the execute wasn't used until after I changed my vote. BUT I really like his content right now. He's pointing out problems with you and RR and asking really good questions - it seems like we're have the same concerns. I'm really torn though and paranoid because he might just be going against you now so that whomever is lynched between the two of you will look much better in D3.

RR I am okay with. I was initially suspicious about his attitude toward claiming but everything makes sense now that everything is on the table - he wanted me to claim before him to possibly catch me in a lie. His NAs seem justified... being on the receiving end of a RB sucks but his intentions seem more like Town Jailer than Mafia RBr. the last plus for me is that mafia!RR could have lied about jailing me. Since he claimed last, he could feasible have fakeclaiming anything advantageous and made my claim more dubious, making it easier to mislynch me. But he didn't do that. Plus, as Nabe pointed out, a Jailer seems to fit in this setup.

For Doopliss... the only thing I'm not a fan of is his reason for going along with your claim. But that applies to both you and him. Moreover, his post suggests he's frustrated with the setup, which seems realistic.

Now that I've typed this up a Ran-Nabe scumteam seems really plausible. I remember Doopliss trying to get your vote on a Nabe lynch D2 - you weren't interested in it though and even pressured me to change my vote (although I concede I had already mentioned that I was probably going to change it anyway, but I digress). I'll probably go re-read the thread in a bit to look for more interactions that I might have missed.

 

[Vult Redux]

Re-reading D1 and

The Vote Count

Ranmaru (3) - Red Ryu, S_Defenestration, Dooplissity
Kousband (1) - Ranmaru
Volt Redux (1) - Kousband

If we assume execute requires half votes, Ran received the required votes D1 and the mafia didn't take advantage. Conspiracy?? Probably, but still.

RR, Spak, and myself came close at 2 votes D1, but only Ran and Gheb reached 3 at any point.

on D2 only Nabe received the required number before Spak was executed.

 

[ranmaru]

I'm trying to figure out who your partner could be.

-_- You should be looking at my individual (and whole play) and not trying to look at pairs. I want you to think really hard about this. I will do a re-read that applies the setup.

Let me ask something. Do you agree with Nabe about the 'semantics'? Also do talk to me about what I said in response to your post about me being aggro. What is the point in that?