Monster Mafia - Game Over! Was the Beast slain, or did evil overcome?

[Ilovegiraffes]

Hey Joey, can you get to my #740, specifially my first point? (Since you seem to have time)

I'm about to head out to martial arts now. So I'll get to your #759 tonight. Also guys, consider that I'll be staying at my friends place saturday evening and the whole day Sunday. I'll announce V/LA later. I should be able to show up in the thread early tomorrow before heading out to work > friend's place, but I won't be able to contribute much content, just short and quick posts.

 

[Dooms]

Regards to Jerkus, I understand where they're coming from with their Bardull vote. It's REALLY obvious that it's just so similar to everything else that was stated prior to them. However, I don't get why they aren't stating it at this point. I know it changed, but if we're 20 pages into the game and people are STILL hounding on you for that ****, then it should probably be clarified.

The Macman and iLuv connection thing is something they're also being hounded on really hardcore (especially from Macman). I don't agree with people voting them for disliking this, but I really don't see a reason to hide this at this point, since people are starting to get into "iLuv = auto town" mode and votes are starting to pile up on Jerkus. They should probably be outing all of the information they can at this point.

I don't know if I missed the Macman + iLuv = scum thing, but it's obvious that it's just a Circus thing, and I haven't seen him explain it at all. I've seen separately, but not together, and it's kind of at the point where it needs to be explained because it was promised 8 pages ago.

-------------------------------------

1. It had nothing to do with the scenario, that's the problem. I explained why I brought it up. I was wondering why the hydra wasn't thinking about the logic already stated by the hydra in that game. Circus thought I was bringing it up from your perspective, but I was bringing it up from Moira's perspective. So it was a harmless, curious question I brought up and he jumped on that, as if I was trying to accuse him of something, when I had said no such thing.

2. You say this, but why would Jerkus state this quote below, at such an early stage of the game? This reeks of manupulation, because a town read there would be pre-mature. Quote:

Why would Moira say that?

Because I had something suspicious on a slot everyone else town read, and it could have potentially been something to change a town read that literally everyone else had down pretty solidly.

That's a scenario where you want to play your hand.

Jerkus voted Bardull. A wagon with more than 3 votes on him already. Of course he has the right to hold information if there is nothing new to present PLUS it will help him develop his read further on a player that everyone is already scum reading. Completely different scenarios call for completely different mentalities.

Macman + iLuv was something that people agreed with regarding one side or the other (mostly macman out of the two), but neither side together prior to Jerkus bringing this possibility up, so there wasn't really a reason to go in right at the moment. He stated that he planned on going into details regardless of what happened (which is really obvious. Who would make such a bold statement without talking about why?).

These were both plays by Circus by the way. J stated clearly that he was waiting on Circus to clarify on these things. Not having things detailed to the point of being able to have either head discuss each fully in a case fashion =/= scummy, especially if one head specifically wants to go into the details.

-------------------

I don't like the reasoning presented on Jerkus from iLuv, and I don't agree with how they've sat on it for 11 pages and have only added one thing during that time. They've been asking almost every slot to join the wagon, but haven't added anything substantial to it since Page 9, where Jerkus has obviously posted a lot more content since then (way way more. They've had so much more content now than prior to Red Ryu initially voting the slot).

I'm mostly waiting to answer Macman btw. Jerkus' answers to those questions matter quite a bit regarding my read on them.

 

[Dooms]

Hey Joey, can you get to my #740, specifially my first point? (Since you seem to have time)

Oh

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Joey since you are now reading RVS context, can you tell me what you think of this?

It means you're getting a bit tunnel-y.

 

[Dooms]

It means you're getting a bit tunnel-y.

This.

I'd love to see other scum reads from your slot, iLuv. The fact that you're tunneling so hard makes it really difficult for people to consider joining the wagon unless it's a very last minute decision because you've kind of ran it down way too hard. It's not helping people like Macman who just want answers to questions (or wanted, anyways) :|.

Like, as an example, i was kind of wanting to vote Jerkus to see if it'd help in even the slightest bit to show how serious I was when I asked those questions, but considering how ran down the wagon is, it just wouldn't help and everyone would instantly assume I wanted them dead lol.

 

[Ilovegiraffes]

I'm mostly waiting to answer Macman btw. Jerkus' answers to those questions matter quite a bit regarding my read on them.

There is nothing I can add that hasn't already been stated. My first point in my #740 covers why I agree with the 'forced reads' part. My second point points out how I can also see the manipulation part. There is something I see that is off yet I can't confirm if it's solid until I get answers from Jerkus, who has yet to post. He also has had an abrubt change in reads on me and Zen but has yet to explain why that changed.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

man... I don't like this post at all

can you go a lil more in depth about what made you switch to FML? or explain what makes him a better lynch than your previous vote Xatres?

Is Xatres still a play in your mind?

Literally just reading Ghebs reasoning again and then going back to fact check and seeing that it checked out was enough to convince me

I'm not particularly suspicious of Xatres. I mostly just threw my vote that way to try to give a non Jerkus/Iluv/Macman wagon some life because as I've said before, I wanted there to be some new pressure applied

I know the wagon swapping looks gross but Im just not that committed to any particular wagon atm tbqh

 

[Ilovegiraffes]

Ok peace for real. Joey I'll get to the rest of your questions later.

 

[Dooms]

There is nothing I can add that hasn't already been stated. My first point in my #740 covers why I agree with the 'forced reads' part. My second point points out how I can also see the manipulation part. There is something I see that is off yet I can't confirm if it's solid until I get answers from Jerkus, who has yet to post. He also has had an abrubt change in reads on me and Zen but has yet to explain why that changed.

Okie dokie. I'll let you get your information. I actually didn't realize you were adding information as you were asking me questions. That was really intelligent of you, but I feel dumb for missing it. I like it lol.

Also, in response to your 744: I know it won't mean much considering I last said this when I was indy, and I definitely will not be going into this as much as I did last time:

Please stop. That is not a good reason to scum read someone. It never will be. This is only responding to the "He generally figures out that I'm town even when I'm crazy" logic. I have no idea why you do this consistently, but it doesn't work. I will state this forever until you stop. :x

The reason it went from being a connection case into an iLuv scum read is probably because the read developed, and it's not entirely illogical for a connection case to turn into independent scum reads, and it was stated that Circus finds you both scummy independently and together (Which would really make sense on its own...). I would honestly like the slot to get their reads together or for Circus to post and clarify, so I'll be waiting with you lol.

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Ive read. Will be here later. Mfw we've become a wagon how

 

[Lore]

Sorry, that's kind of a family trait. We can be unintentional *******es when we argue/debate.

- - -

I'll be out of the house for the remainder of the evening, but hopefully won't be too tired when I get in to at least check the thread.

(Still v/la, on a date and she's in the bathroom)

Lol, I've noticed. Less so with M3D though, depending on the day.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

@ FullMetalLynch why did you change your read on Mac from town, earlier in the game, to scum? I realize you feel better about him now, but why did you start to dislike him and vote him in the first place when you had him as town?

Just his activity and how I perceived he was approaching things, it felt really just there and walking through the motions because he had to moreso than him wanting to advance towns understanding of his slots and his ideas

 

[FullMetalLynch]

@ FullMetalLynch @ Lore

How do you guys feel about FrozenFlame and Gheb? (I think you both have commented on Scary already)
How do you feel about Jerkus now after reading Zen's #632?

@ #HBC | Gorf @Gheb_01

How you feeling about Jerkus now?

@ #HBC | FrozeηFlame

Same question to you as well, how about Jerkus now? I think you said that you might go back on them if a misstep occurred, and Zen's #632 seems to outline another, which I agree with.

@ BarDulL @ #HBC | Nabe @Xatres

Get in on this Jerkus wagon. (But consider the votecount, not saying pile all your votes at once) If you support it, voice it first.

Frozen is a flat null, I dont even understand his push against us because he didnt seem to particularly convinced by gheb at first and yet here we are. Its almost convieniant how fast he made up his mind to be doing something but thats a null tell till i read up on what changed

Jerkus i dont remember off the top of my head

 

[FullMetalLynch]

So I guess people aren't convinced by my case and I really don't see why. I guess frozen is just naturally septical and Werekill not that confident as a mafia player but I think it deserves more attention. In Zombies mafia I got a lot of unjustified flak for making a very similar case on WATT, who turned out to be scum for very similar reasons.

I'm also annoyed by how eager he is to join the Xatres wagon, which seems to be a convenient cop out. But as far as I can see the 'case' on Xatres is very weak. If my reading comprehension hasn't gone down the drain completely Xatres is seen as scum because it's unpopular of him to voice popular opinions after being quiet all game. It's awfully useless, sure, but it's not a scumtell by any stretch of the imagination.

I find it to be scummy and representative of FMLs play to join that wagon so carelessly at this point of the game.
It's also noteworthy that his only direct response to my case is actually a veiled hydra-john.

I wasn't even eager though i wwas just floating out my feelings on his post, dont spin my intent to be more than what it was

 

[Xivii]

@ Dooms Q&A w.r.t #725

Q: If reaching for Giraffe scum is grimy specifically for them, then why aren't they the only ones thinking it?

A: Who else are you referring to? I felt that same way before, but after Ran's long post explaining his actions and from his posts since then, my worries have subsided. Ah now that I think about it, Xatres is another person who is thinking it. It makes sense to me that Xatres would read Ran that way based on the way Xatres looks for scum. Not to say that Xatres' way of scumhunting is bad, but I don't think it's currently efficient in dgames culture where we let people get away with bad play- lying, tunneling, lurking, fumbling- because it is simply their meta. On the other hand, I think J has quite a keen eye in this game and that his ability to read people is one of the most adept in Dgames in terms of the Dgames matrix (culture). It bewilders me that he can actually have Ran as scum (or rather as "can die") and that iluv is his second (third?) choice for a lynch when there are so many other, greater, choices.

For the record, I don't have iluv as town because of meta. His large post cleared up his play to me which I see as town play. That being said, it's kind of silly & suspicious that Jerkus is looking at iluv "without meta" seeing as both Ran and Ryu are two people in which meta is actually the most reliable. To me this is suspicious because it allows Jerkus more leeway. It's limiting for scum when there's random obvtowns in the town. For instance in Zombies, soup and I knew Ran was going to be a bother through out the game because he was as good as clear, yet we didn't want to waste our night kill on him. Jerkus eliminates this problem by stripping him of his obvtown meta.

Furthermore no one else is "reaching". People have voiced their dislike and concerns, but Jerkus is the only one actively insinuating malicious intent from iluv's play. Circus could just be trying this weird overly aggressive playstyle, but it's silly and not pro-town at all.


Q (continued): Jerkus wasn't the only slot to react that way to comparing J's Zombies play to Monster. FML had the exact same reaction until it was explained.

A: Ah see yeah, this is what I'm saying in those last two sentences above. FML didn't react in the same way that Jerkus did. Jerkus reacted by insinuating Ran was being malicious. FML reacted by insinuating that Ran was dumb. Dumb but town.


Q: Did you ever think that Werekill wasn't manipulated and that he's buddying Jerkus because he agrees with the slot?

A: Yes.


Q (not really): The fact that you think Werekill is being manipulated when Jerkus says that they like Werekill because they're strongly town reading eachother... It's just that.

A: Uh why are you so certain on this? I don't mind if you feel that's the case. We are supposed to look at a situation and decide what we feel to be the most likely cause behind it. Just like I feel (or have until recently) that the most likely case is that Werekill is being manipulated. There is never certainty, however. The way you're presenting your opinion gives of the sense that you have scum knowledge.


Q: Why specifically should Jerkus be sitting on their meta and scum reading a slot instead of having them as a null read that should die?

A: Hmm you're right. I thought it was weird, but J's response and yours make me rethink that. The way J presented it still feels a little forced though. That's just my opinion.


Q:

We're not pushing just for information at this point in the day phase. White knighting doesn't matter at this part of the phase. It's the 20th. Deadline is the 24th. This game has been plagued with inactivity and Ranmaru posting 500 more times than he should. We need to decide what we're doing, and telling people not to go against lynches that they don't believe in is holding back information and can easily be used to set up mislynches. "If you really believed this slot was town, why did you not defend them when they were being lynched? It's obvious you didn't oppose it, and you only stated that you were against it after the lynch happened" is a stereotypical response that would apply perfectly to a townie player because they were told not to butt in. No thank you. If you're arguing to lynch a slot, you're arguing with all of the people that think that slot is town as well as the slot itself. Deal with it if you're going to push the slot. I actually like Gorf for stopping the FF push, but this doesn't make me dislike Jerkus because there is really no reason to clash heads with your stronger town reads when you're that close to deadline. You don't have all of the time in the world to convince everyone that x player is scummy, and since FF was new to the table in general and there were other players Jerkus wanted lynched, there was literally no reason to wait on FF to respond. He stated that he'd bring it up again if FF responded. What better response is there?

A: Uh dude this paragraph is really scummy. I don't get what you're saying in the first half, but the second half doesn't make any town sense. We weren't close to the deadline when J stated that he was looking into FF. And there's nothing protown about stopping an interaction between a player that we don't have any information on and another player that we need more information on. By the way there's a huge difference between white-knighting and disagreeing with a push.


Q: Last of all, why are you hounding on Jerkus specifically for voting Xatres?

A: Am I? I don't remember xD I don't think I said there's anything wrong with Jerkus pushing Xatres.


@ Dooms out of curiosity, have you been reading since before you replaced in?

 

[BarDulL]

I have already requested replacement with sworddancer so yeah. Sorry guys I'm too busy for now.

 

[Xivii]

@ BarDulL Alright man stay up

@#HBC | J I'm reading through flavorless mafia to compare your play, and so far the two seem different to me. I noticed a scum tell that you did in that game and have done in all your games as mafia since joining Dgames, and you haven't done it here. I also reread Ryker mafia because I tunneled you there and I wanted to compare how you reacted to me pushing you there and my pushing of you here. Your town play there and your play here line up to me. The only thing you've done in this game that lines up with your scum play from previous games is (what I see as) your back track of frozen post and your scary read. I also don't feel like you're scum hunting like at all, but that could just be due to you being road-trip busy and your often exemplified D1 chill. Over all I'm seeing your side as townie though.

As for the @Circus side. Well man your play is really scummy. I'm going to look through some of your recent scum/town games as well, but I don't feel that you've played this way as either town or scum before. I think it's a new playstyle and may be just something you were trying out with the hydra. All the things I've mentioned before (your over aggressive/premature pushes; eluding questions; maciluv connection) still stand. Even though I'm leaning town on the J side, I have to still consider that your slot is scum and that the J side is merely playing well to his townsona. Overall though I would really like to call a truce with you guys @ Jerkus , unify our wagons, and hardbody Scary the **** out of here.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

J has been posting A LOT but much of it seems to be in defense of his slot, and very little of it seem to be active scumhunting. The Xatres push seems to be the only posts where it feels like he's even attempting to find scum and even in that case it seems like a very easy push to make. Can't completely blame J, In his situation I'd be defending a lot too but I expected to see some more posts that show that he's critically looking at the game. With some of the statements J has made, it kinda seems like he's focusing on looking good as oppose to finding scum.

idk what happened to Circus though... He seems to have kinda toned down his presence in the thread. He doesn't seem to care to continue pushing what appeared to be strong scum reads in ILUV / me. I think it's a lil weird that I'm still his top scum pick (or atleast J said so) esp since much of his reasoning hinged on the already faulty logic of my laclluster play making it seem like I was scum and didn't feel like playing. I would think that every post I've made since I caught up would cause him to shift his opinion

idk it just seems like after Circus scummed it up hardbody, they decided to pass the buck to J to save the day (who admittedly HAS been giving me second thoughts on my read, so it's been working.)

still down for a Jerkus lynch

 

[Xivii]

Updated Town Lean Scum Lean Live Die Null List, Ordered

Live D1
Were
FML
iLuv
Mac
Xat
Nabe
Gorf
Fro
Jerk
Bard

Die D1
Scary
Joey
Gheb
Kooz

 

[Xivii]

Actually Bard should be above Jerk in the order.

@ #HBC | Nabe who would you rather lynch out of Jerkus and Scary?

 

[Xivii]

@ Nameless V/LA until Tuesday June 24th. Gonna be out of town for some alumni event shenanagins + my Bday

No way it's my birthday too! η_η

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

ho boy looks like i chose a bad time to not be attentive to the thread

im honestly... not sure how to feel about joey. strictly based on his opening post, at one angle, i can absolutely relate to and understand the opinions and stances he's taking about jerkus and how the case zen presented is NOT the case from a town pov... but i feel uneasy about the degree of... vigor?... behind his zen scum read. i mean it's one thing to disagree with the points made by zen, but i can't understand how he came to the conclusion that zen is scum. i guess im just at pause cuz like **** lol for all that's good there's bizarre and, well, vice versa lol. tl;dr honestly i find myself scum reading joey a lot n i don't want this to be about just "feeling weird" about coming into the thread, but ill keep an eye on his sweet sweet booty

 

[Xivii]

I just read the stuff after that posts so nevermind my last question to you Joey. The starting your read from page 10 thing is weird and is probably a part of what's making your reads and attitudes so awkward because you don't have context to anything.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

oh wait that's a THING?!

joey c'mon read the thread yo

 

[Ilovegiraffes]

I'm in thread and responding. I want Joey to answer one question while I do this.

@ Dooms

How are you reading FML? (Plus reasoning) Thanks.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

What the hell even is going on with kuz slot?

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Sorry for late update, but my computer in littered with adware that's making my browser super hard to use (using a school computer). Anyways, yes Joey replaces Wanted and I still have to contact Rajam about replacing BarDulL.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

kuz's most recent update has been that he's gonna be getting at the thread soon and that he like has less motivation than he thought he would or something. considering the fact that we've got a deadline extension im not TOTALLY against offing em if he ends up having nothing... but like mac said id prefer lynching somebody who can give us answers rather than a simple crapshoot

 

[Nameless]

Vote Count

1. Nabe
2. Gorf
3. Jerkus (Circus/J) (6) - th3kuzinator, ilovegiraffes, Macman, ScaryLB59, Zack Fair, Xatres
4. FrozenFlame (1) - BarDulL
5. Macman (1) - Werekill
6. BarDulL
7. Ilovegiraffes (Red Ryu/Ranmaru)
9. ScaryLB59
10. Gheb_01
11. Xatres (1) - Jerkus
12. FullMetalLynch (Rake/Orboknown) (4) - Gheb_01, Nabe, Gorf, Frozenflame
13. Joey
14. Werekill
15. Zen (1) - Joey

Not voting: FullMetalLynch

 

[Lore]

J has been posting A LOT but much of it seems to be in defense of his slot, and very little of it seem to be active scumhunting. The Xatres push seems to be the only posts where it feels like he's even attempting to find scum and even in that case it seems like a very easy push to make. Can't completely blame J, In his situation I'd be defending a lot too but I expected to see some more posts that show that he's critically looking at the game. With some of the statements J has made, it kinda seems like he's focusing on looking good as oppose to finding scum.

Popping in to say this real quick.

... Is this really a valid argument when he's at l-2 or so?

 

[Ilovegiraffes]

Much vote. Such informative. Very ilovegiraffes. Wow.

That vote literally has me dying.

Is this a serious reaction? What is your opinion of it?

You know how players generally play the game. Not as each role, but as individuals. J, Soup, and Circus come to mind as emotional and/or snarky posters. Am I going to scum read these three for either of those things? No! They will do that regardless of alignment, so that's not a very intelligent decision to read them as scum for those things.

That's where you are wrong. You forget that in reading a person, you cannot simply go by the book. You have to actually think about all the variables, including meta. AtE by it-self is null, but what you need to look at is why the person is AtE'ing, to get to the root of their intentions. Classic example is Soup, who uses AtE manipulatively as scum, but everyone usually reads him as town for it, which is exactly why he keeps using it as scum. (He used it to avoid topics he couldn't really explain as scum) One example is Zombies Mafia, another GREAT example is Soup in BIM4. In conclusion, you cannot excuse the hydra from AtE'ing simply by saying that them doing so is null, you have to look at why they are doing it.

Regards to Jerkus, I understand where they're coming from with their Bardull vote. It's REALLY obvious that it's just so similar to everything else that was stated prior to them. However, I don't get why they aren't stating it at this point. I know it changed, but if we're 20 pages into the game and people are STILL hounding on you for that ****, then it should probably be clarified.

The Macman and iLuv connection thing is something they're also being hounded on really hardcore (especially from Macman). I don't agree with people voting them for disliking this, but I really don't see a reason to hide this at this point, since people are starting to get into "iLuv = auto town" mode and votes are starting to pile up on Jerkus. They should probably be outing all of the information they can at this point.

I don't know if I missed the Macman + iLuv = scum thing, but it's obvious that it's just a Circus thing, and I haven't seen him explain it at all. I've seen separately, but not together, and it's kind of at the point where it needs to be explained because it was promised 8 pages ago.

-------------------------------------

Why would Moira say that?

That's a scenario where you want to play your hand.

Jerkus voted Bardull. A wagon with more than 3 votes on him already. Of course he has the right to hold information if there is nothing new to present PLUS it will help him develop his read further on a player that everyone is already scum reading. Completely different scenarios call for completely different mentalities.

Red: First off, that wasn't what my question in point 2 was referencing. I knew why he asked you that question in Zombies. I was talking about the 'don't play with your food' quote. Err, but I think you already gave your opinion on that though? I don't see why you answered that as if I was asking about the zombies game. Much confused.

Blue: It isn't about the right. If he has certain information that he'd rather hold onto, he would keep it to himself, not say 'ran and mac are so OBVIOUS wow' and then jump to 'mac is so obvious wow' and then never actually submit the 'connection'. What it actually does is sow a seed of doubt in the town towards mac and I, without really giving any say or pushing the connection themselves. It shows he doesn't care to show the town what he saw was suspicious between the two of us. Even if somehow he had the 'right' to keep information he stated he had within his being, it wouldn't invalidate it from being a suspicious action. Especially since he still has not given the connection he seemed to find.

Pink: You keep asking questions like "I wonder why he hasn't answered the bardull question" and "Why hasn't he released the 'mac + ran' connection he got?", but one answer is that he's scum that can't explain those genuinely. Do you disagree? If you do, then please tell me what you think it MUST BE besides that.

Purple: I don't see how it would. Not following your logic there.

Okie dokie. I'll let you get your information. I actually didn't realize you were adding information as you were asking me questions. That was really intelligent of you, but I feel dumb for missing it. I like it lol.

The reason it went from being a connection case into an iLuv scum read is probably because the read developed, and it's not entirely illogical for a connection case to turn into independent scum reads, and it was stated that Circus finds you both scummy independently and together (Which would really make sense on its own...). I would honestly like the slot to get their reads together or for Circus to post and clarify, so I'll be waiting with you lol.

Cool.

Red: That's wrong. You can't actually get a scum read from an odd connection. You get a scumread individually first, and then if you see odd interactions with that player, then it might be something to look into after they flip scum.

 

[Ilovegiraffes]

To clarify: If a person found Hydra A suspicious for AtE'ing because they AtE'd for a suspicious reason (such as, avoiding a topic, or avoiding a case, or to seem like a townie frustration), then they can find it suspicious. Of course if it's a reason that makes the person seem town, then it could be found townie. For example, Bardull's reaction to pressure was AtE. Yet I don't recall if you ever commented on it or had a problem with people town-reading bardull, as you seemed to look back at the context in explaining it on this page. At times you are forced to read AtE, and I'll give you an example. On mafiascum, I was in lylo with two other players obv, magicarp and some other guy. Otherguy bursts with WALLS of AtE everywhere and I go 'meh prolly town' and the magi is scumming it up with being super unhelpful as **** and unreadable, but was town. I hammered.

Saying that AtE by itself is scummy is not true, that I can agree. Again, it depends on why the person was AtE'ing. So you can't look at AtE and wave it off when someone is suspicious of a person for AtE'ing for a particular reason.

 

[Jerkus]

Sidebar: I had a bet with myself that Wanted's replacement would immediately white night Jerkus (based on me feeling that Wanted's sole post was kinda scummy) and it turned out true. I owe myself a prize.

So you're saying that you think Wanted's slot, as scum, would openly and proudly defend their scumbuddy Jerkus at the eleventh hour, with Jerkus being a hair's breath away from lynch?

In how many games have you seen a mafioso white knight one of their buddies? Especially a buddy who is practically guaranteed to flip soon?

 

[Jerkus]

It's funny how people are attributing the recent "damange control" posting of this hydra to J when pretty much both heads have been posting in tandem pretty consistently.

Joey is bang on about pretty much everything, townie of the year right there.

 

[Jerkus]

J has been posting A LOT but much of it seems to be in defense of his slot, and very little of it seem to be active scumhunting. The Xatres push seems to be the only posts where it feels like he's even attempting to find scum and even in that case it seems like a very easy push to make. Can't completely blame J, In his situation I'd be defending a lot too but I expected to see some more posts that show that he's critically looking at the game. With some of the statements J has made, it kinda seems like he's focusing on looking good as oppose to finding scum.

YOU said earlier that the reason you had a hard time focusing on scumhunting in the middle of this Day was because we went at you hard and you felt too preoccupied answering the onslaught of accusations to really get into scumhunting properly. Don't be a hypocrite. When the main lines of discussion center around lynching you, it tends to take up your focus regardless of what alignment you are. Frankly, we've been doing the best we can to focus on the rest of it anyway. That's why we're not just voting FML and hoping for the best.

 

[Dooms]

ho boy looks like i chose a bad time to not be attentive to the thread

im honestly... not sure how to feel about joey. strictly based on his opening post, at one angle, i can absolutely relate to and understand the opinions and stances he's taking about jerkus and how the case zen presented is NOT the case from a town pov... but i feel uneasy about the degree of... vigor?... behind his zen scum read. i mean it's one thing to disagree with the points made by zen, but i can't understand how he came to the conclusion that zen is scum. i guess im just at pause cuz like **** lol for all that's good there's bizarre and, well, vice versa lol. tl;dr honestly i find myself scum reading joey a lot n i don't want this to be about just "feeling weird" about coming into the thread, but ill keep an eye on his sweet sweet booty

obby <3

@Zen: I'll start off by saying that I started my read before I got my role PM, and I skimmed the game page 10-19 prior to getting the replacement PM. I saw your post, and it was the one thing I planned on responding to the second I joined. Literally the only post lol.

It's not suspicious if they're looking at that slot without meta because they can fake their town meta on top of the fact that their play can easily be seen as suspicious. I don't scum read them personally and I won't lynch them at this point, but I definitely understand anyone scum reading that slot, and I will not use that as reasoning against them for any reason whatsoever. This also means that there is a possibility that he doesn't agree with you or doesn't see Ranmaru as instant town. This makes it seem like that because he doesn't town read Ran, you're using it as a reason to

Werekill and Xatres are both included on the people that were reading iLuv as scum that come to mind, but at the time I posted I know I believed there was one or two more. Macman or FML?

J and Circus reacted that way to Ran because they're both defensive players btw. On top of that, FML pulled the same mentality until they showed their response. "What the hell is that going to prove, Ranmaru" or something like that. I responded the same way when I read it btw, so if you think everyone read that as unmalicious, I personally won't be agreeing with you and I won't see how it can't be seen as non-malicious prior to explanation.

Why shouldn't I say the same to you regarding the fact that it's manipulation? Saying that he's manipulating Werekill when they've both stated that they clearly town read one another just makes it sound idiotic, and I don't see how it could be manipulation in the slightest. I also don't see how the buddying goes anywhere but null for J. It's not that I'm certain as much as I don't see how it's manipulation in the slightest. I could understand if it was faked by one of them, but I don't see how Jerkus is manipulating Werekill to town read them. There wasn't anything needed to get Werekill to town read Jerkus. Plus it's a game of manipulation, so even if it was manipulation, how is that scummy? As town, you don't get people on your wagon just by throwing your votes and thoughts out there. You make them believe your reasoning. Even if it's not right in the long run.

I disagree! Starting a new case with FF when he wouldn't get the support needed won't help when we are close to deadline, so I don't understand why he should get into a pushing fight. Information is nice, but scrambling for a last minute lynch is stupid and should be avoided. I also thought the FF discussion was much later than it actually was, so -shrug-. I'm not agreeing with you on this one though lol. We can get info from pushing him.

I was wrong about Xatres.

@Ranmaru: FML is fine because nothing they've done seems suspicious to me. At first I was going to agree with Gheb, but then FML responded and I felt better about the slot in general. Null with a slight town lean and I'm honestly fine with that for day 1.

Nabe's vote came across as a joke. Nabe does this afk thing every game though, and he never gets lynched for it, so I'm honestly not going to worry about it. Let the vig do his job or he'll be a lynch on a later day (or he may post more stuff and be super townie who knows!). The way that vote was presented was simply hilarious and on first reaction I thought it was a total joke (but apparently it wasn't? Or maybe it turned serious later on (Especially after you went hardcore tunnel mode on Jerkus)).

OH. I answered that in a draft I made, but erased that draft because I wanted to ask Jerkus questions. That or I did answer it. I don't know. What I said was that I think it's RVS more than anything considering how Werekill got rush d1 lynched in an on going game and seems like a player that can very easily be mislynched day 1. I don't think saying that alone stops any read progression though. Especially since there was a whole day phase afterwards to get a developed read. If I said something along those lines, then I posted it already!

That is an answer. It's just one I don't agree with in the slightest because I don't see scum Jerkus. There's not a must be. There are a few possibilities. The one I think is most likely is that he planned to go into it but changed his mind before he did, so it's not relevant anymore. I could easily see both J and Circus thinking that and not going into details because they don't care to and prefer to focus on more serious and on going things (this scenario seems even more likely if they agreed with the reasoning other people had on Bardull). He also could have forgotten to post about Mac + iLuv or simply doesn't have the post finished yet. I don't really know, but assuming that they're scummy because of those two things seems reachy to me.

Blue and purple responded to Bardull specific stuff with Macman + iLuv specific stuff. :/. I am 100% of the belief that they simply forgot or that the post isn't ready, which isn't scummy (or townie. It's null). I'm waiting for the post before I judge. Like, if they say they're going to post about it, I'm 95% sure they're going to post about it at some point before the day would end. Even if they didn't, that would be a very basic and idiotic mistake for scum to make. I don't find that to be scummy. It's just... weird. Null and weird.

You can get a scum read from an odd connection. If you think that player X has a scum connection to a player you're scum reading, then suddenly player X is scummy as well in your eyes because they're connected to the scum player.

 

[Jerkus]

All the things I've mentioned before (your over aggressive/premature pushes; eluding questions; maciluv connection) still stand.

emphasis mine

Seriously, when are dGames towns going to start to truly understand that being aggressive is not indicative of scum alignment? Talking outside of just this game for a second, I genuinely feel that this is one of the most commonly (and falsely) assumed fallacies on these boards. That being "aggressive" or "antagonizing" suggests that you're mafia. IF ANYTHING, THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE.

IF ANYTHING

THE OPPOSITE

IS TRUE.

Scum ****ing avoid conflict. They withdraw. They ****ing cower. You don't have to take this as a universal truth, but if one of these sentiments is going to be a general guideline, it should be this one. Scum don't intentionally antagonize. They buddy and lurk. You don't have to believe me now, but learn this eventually, please.

 

[Dooms]

To clarify: If a person found Hydra A suspicious for AtE'ing because they AtE'd for a suspicious reason (such as, avoiding a topic, or avoiding a case, or to seem like a townie frustration), then they can find it suspicious. Of course if it's a reason that makes the person seem town, then it could be found townie. For example, Bardull's reaction to pressure was AtE. Yet I don't recall if you ever commented on it or had a problem with people town-reading bardull, as you seemed to look back at the context in explaining it on this page. At times you are forced to read AtE, and I'll give you an example. On mafiascum, I was in lylo with two other players obv, magicarp and some other guy. Otherguy bursts with WALLS of AtE everywhere and I go 'meh prolly town' and the magi is scumming it up with being super unhelpful as **** and unreadable, but was town. I hammered.

Saying that AtE by itself is scummy is not true, that I can agree. Again, it depends on why the person was AtE'ing. So you can't look at AtE and wave it off when someone is suspicious of a person for AtE'ing for a particular reason.

I look at J using emotions in his posts and I realize that is just how he plays. He's not convincing anyone. He knows he's not appealing to anyone's emotions through his posting because everyone knows it's 100% null of him. That's just how he posts. It's REALLY null.

Bardull was put in an awful spot with his votes, so his AtE was 100% fine imo. Like, he was getting votes just piled on him for an RVS post he made prior to reading, and literally everyone had no idea it was a post he made prior to reading, which made it 100% null in the long run. It was just a weird thing in general.

 

[Dooms]

Oh, that's not just J. That's Circus, too. They both use emotions in their posts because that's just how they are as people in and out of games. That is how they work as individuals and as a hydra. That's how I perceive it, anyways.

 

[Jerkus]

Anyone who has ever seen me post in the social thread should know that I get emotion about ****.

(Circus here)

Not that I care about defending myself on this because anyone using AtE as the crux of their case if just terrible.