Mission Complete!- Fox Discussion Thread

[ZeroJanitor]

If you're gonna challenge Jigglypuff in the air, I recommend up airs since she can't cover herself very well from below.

 

[Foster J.]

Another question, should I challenge Jigglypuff in the air or shield and punish? I think I'm getting WiFi'd on the latter option as Jigglypuff always gets out of the way after a shield an aerial.

Jiggs can sneak in and out with Fair's and Bairs, and even Nair, so to punish Jigs I'd take notice of how high she is, cause you could either read his approach and hit him from above, or go for dash attacks

 

[luke_atyeo]

eww wifi, I cant play fox on wifi character needs too much precision and lag wrecks that.
I haven't played any really good jigs yet, but Its way too hard to challenge her in the air because she's going to be weaving back and forth with her amazing horizontal air speed, and foxes is ****, so you'll be outspaced. You've gotta weave in and out on the ground in such a way that she throws out a move, you move out of the way so it whiffs, and then you run in and punish, thats really easy to do on bad players but pretty hard to do on good players. Shield and punish can work, but its tricky because if they are doing their retreating aerials properly, you shouldnt be able to punish, so you need to like, run a bit further forward and shield deep so that she's already too close to you and cant retreat as far, but if you do that you're likely to get hit before you get your shield up.
Her aerials have a bit of end lag though, see if you can punish that end lag with like a RAR bair or something, and dont forget that as always, you dont NEED to approach, if jigs is covering an area and you cant get in, just shoot the *******.

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

eww wifi, I cant play fox on wifi character needs too much precision and lag wrecks that.

Those were my thoughts exactly! Fox really does need precision, and even the slightest lag makes me drop Fox on FG. I wasn't sure if I was feeling the salt but good to see someone with good knowledge point this issue out. In real time, punishes happen like I want them and he becomes my main character again.

Thanks a bunch for the tips guys, I really appreciate it!

 

[DavemanCozy]

Double sticking is one way of doing sh U-airs. You could also do this crazy thing I started doing, where you use your thumb to hit the jump button (X or Y) [red] and use your thumb's joint to push up on the C-stick [blue]. This method prevents me from having to push up with the Control stick letting me keep my full movement forward / backward.

NOTE: you may also get arthritis from doing this.

 

[Top Boss]

Double sticking is one way of doing sh U-airs. You could also do this crazy thing I started doing, where you use your thumb to hit the jump button (X or Y) [red] and use your thumb's joint to push up on the C-stick [blue]. This method prevents me from having to push up with the Control stick letting me keep my full movement forward / backward.
View attachment 77114

NOTE: you may also get arthritis from doing this.

rofl i feel like I'm the only person who uses one thumb for the joystick(no tap jump obviously), then i use my right thumb to press Y and A. somehow I still keep my horizontal movement cuz im cool. the bad part is screwing up with an up smash tho

 

[colinies]

rofl i feel like I'm the only person who uses one thumb for the joystick(no tap jump obviously), then i use my right thumb to press Y and A. somehow I still keep my horizontal movement cuz im cool. the bad part is screwing up with an up smash tho

I always screw up with an up smash at the worst times

 

[M@v]

Oh, meant to bring this up, but at Big house here's hows the top Fox players placed (Out of 512):

Megafox: 13th

Ksev: 17th:

Feel Tension, Blood Cross, and Myself: 49th

Shofu: 65th

 

[luke_atyeo]

Double sticking is pretty good, I must have put in about 20 hours of practice over a few months of just practicing sh autocancel uairs a few minutes every day.
Then I changed to tilt stick, you cant screw it up with tilt stick, just another argument to tilt stick.
Never again now will I be knocked out of a tourney because I accidentally usmash and got punished and killed instead of doing an uair that would have set up a frame trap to let me get the kill instead.

 

[Foster J.]

In recent news @Sodrek wins a German national over Cyve 6-4 with all !
MISSION! COMPREE!

 

[EndlessRain]

Yeah, you're being WiFied. Jiggs has some trouble dealing with shields, but lag+the newly heightened shield stun make it a doddle. Challenging Jiggs in the air just doesn't work though (Well, uair does. But we all know how good uair is already, and they have to be pretty high-up to do that).

 

[Guimartgon]

So I've been playing a lot of Fox recently and I wanted to dump some of the issues I've been having as well as things I've been noticing about my play. At high %s game I heavily rely on Dair to Usmash, spaced Bairs, raw Usmash on reads / punishes and Usmash OOS and sometimes airdodge baiting with Uair to get kills. Is there any other tool I should be utilizing to net stocks?

I know one of those tools is soft Nair to Usmash but I don't know when the soft hitspot actually comes out so I just full hop Nair and get shieded.

And the last thing, I've seen a few Foxes(namely Feel Tension) going for Uthrow at low %s to try and get Uairs, this makes sense since I can't seem to get ensured aerials out of Dthrow. How recommended is this? Is overall good or just a mixup?

 

[Cuenca911]

Up throw to up air. That is my advice. B)

 

[Chalice]

Jab jab to fsmash/running upsmash is also really good.

Fade away fsmash is a good mix up

Risky, but ending part of side b into uair is good

If the opponent is playing super safe in shield, get grabs and build up to high %. Uptilt kills late but it works. Around 160% or so but this is only if the opponent lives that long and isn't giving you opportunities for a smash attack

Dthrow/upthrow and read where they DI and/or jump then uair then

Run off the ledge FF fair is a risky gimp if you do it wrong because you can SD but it works well

 

[luke_atyeo]

my solution to opponents abusing shield against fox is to just get them off stage and then try to get a kill when they get back on from the ledge. This is where option knowledge and being able to read comes in handy, if you can get a feel for what options the opponent likes to do in certain situations from the ledge, you can sometimes get the read that gives you the kill, doing certain things or being in a certain spot can trigger the opponent too (for instance maybe if you stand at the very very edge the opponent will try to hit you with a get up attack without thinking, then you know that standing at the very edge can trigger them to do that, maybe if you jump up while they are on ledge it'll trigger them to roll, etc)

Fsmash if done near the edge can hit them while they are on the ledge (if you charge a smash sometimes they'll just wait on the ledge not knowing that fsmash can hit them).

If they do a regular get (press forward on the ledge) you can fsmash and if you time it right it'll hit them in their last few frames where they are vulnerable but cant act yet, I get a lot of kills with this. If you dont react to that it time you can nair to hit them back off, because the timing window where you can hit them is a little tricky, lingering hitboxes like fsmash and nair are good.

if they drop off and double jump onto the stage with a fair or something similar, you can walk back a step or two and them fsmash at them, in nearly all situations if you space and time it right you'll either trade with their hit, or just plain hit them, both are good outcomes for you.

If they roll you can walk to where they roll and smash them, or do a running usmash (timing is a bit tricky though)
If they jump off the ledge nair can hit them back out, bair works too, its a bit harder to hit with but that can net you a kill.
obviously getup attack loses to you jumping over it and then hitting them with an nair or a bair, you can also step back just outside of the hit range of getupattack and fsmash them. You can shield and then grab or upsmash out of shield.


The more you work on this the more you can get a feel for what the opponent likes to do.
Sometimes I just knock them back off as they are doing their ledge option a few times with nair, and then they start to panic and will make a silly mistake by doing a roll or getup or some such.
If you've really got them worried to the point where they stop on the ledge for a second to think about what they do (or just hesitate in anyway) you can quickly ledge trump bair them, if they are already hesitating this should hit them before they realize whats happening.


TL;DR work on your ledge game for heaps more kill opportunitys

 

[Guimartgon]

Thanks guys, I've been testing these out and it has certainly helped a lot! I've also noticed how landing behind someone with Dair is a lot less punishable and makes it a lot safer to get the Usmash set ups.

 

[Foster J.]

Why can't the US do decent seeding for Fox mains? REALLY.

MegaFox sent into losers by Nario 3-0
Defeated by ScAttMM 3-1 in losers getting a 17th place I believe.

Nakat 3-1 to ZeRo, only mentioning due to him going Fox last game.
And then 3-0'd by Ryo in losers, 17th as well.

Grim Turtle - Formerly UltimateRazer - beats Fatality 3-2 and goes into further into top 8 winners!
Some real nice Dtilt usage to catch Falcon
Grim Turtle 3-0'd by ESAM and sent to into top 12 losers. He has to play ReflexWonder's Wario and the winner of Ryo vs. 6WX
3-1'd by ReflexWonder, rage + true combo Nair to whaft poor Fox

3 Fox players in top 32 is pretty fine imo, but sure wish Larry was there

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

How does Grim Turtle play compared to the other top Fox players in terms of style?

 

[Foster J.]

How does Grim Turtle play compared to the other top Fox players in terms of style?

Seriously? If you want to know that check out some of his videos in the video thread

 

[Appe3]

I'll probably get a noob status for saying this, but I play almost exlusively with Pro Controller and because of the C-stick being above the jump buttons I can double stick super easy: hit X and then slide my thumb up to the C-stick.

 

[Chalice]

I'll probably get a noob status for saying this, but I play almost exlusively with Pro Controller and because of the C-stick being above the jump buttons I can double stick super easy: hit X and then slide my thumb up to the C-stick.

Nothing wrong with that, but unfortunately the Pro Controller is not an acceptable controller for most tournaments so if you want to go to a tourney you will have to use the Gamecube controller.

It's a shame too because I relearned how to play the game with the Pro Controller

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

For Fox usmash confirms, I've read of spaced jab>jab>usmash, dair>usmash, nair>usmash, and f-tilt>usmash. Have I covered everything in terms of usmash confirms?

 

[DavemanCozy]

I'll probably get a noob status for saying this, but I play almost exlusively with Pro Controller and because of the C-stick being above the jump buttons I can double stick super easy: hit X and then slide my thumb up to the C-stick.

Nothing wrong with that, but unfortunately the Pro Controller is not an acceptable controller for most tournaments so if you want to go to a tourney you will have to use the Gamecube controller.

It's a shame too because I relearned how to play the game with the Pro Controller

Yes it is. You're allowed to use the Pro Controller at tournaments, so long as you only use it with the wired connector. In other words, remove the battery from the controller if you plan to use it at a tournament and connect it to the console using the wire. This is the only way you can use it in tournaments that don't allow wireless controllers, this way you won't be causing wireless interference.

 

[Appe3]

I don't think my controller's battery can be removed,I got one that you can see through and it has lights, how does it work? Is it the wire I use for charging the controller that I can connect it to the console with? So far it's been a bit iffy in tournaments where they let me use it wirelessly, cause connecting it takes like 2:30 mins everytime so I played on almost exlusively one wii u, except I played with a gamepad once. Fox laser 7.8/10 too much lag. Now it's related to Fox lol.

 

[Top Boss]

For Fox usmash confirms, I've read of spaced jab>jab>usmash, dair>usmash, nair>usmash, and f-tilt>usmash. Have I covered everything in terms of usmash confirms?

Fast fall fair>Usmash, Bair>Usmash(won't KO), d/u tilt>u smash(against certain characters on the ledge). I think that's everything.

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

Is Up-smash out of shield useful for fox?
also... a couple questions about his throws and aerials...
Is Up-throw to Up-air useful? like i think it was in melee?
does his d-air have any follow-ups? since i feel its useless...
on the topic of his up-air, how useful is it?

don't think im an idiot if these are stupid...

 

[Top Boss]

Is Up-smash out of shield useful for fox?
also... a couple questions about his throws and aerials...
Is Up-throw to Up-air useful? like i think it was in melee?
does his d-air have any follow-ups? since i feel its useless...
on the topic of his up-air, how useful is it?

don't think im an idiot if these are stupid...

1)YES
2)wait for the opponent to react before you just throw out up air. It is useful though
3)YES(even when you don't land with it)
4)It's extremely good. Learn to Short hop up air easily. Anyone above you is in instant danger.

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

well mr. Top Boss, what followups does his dair have? even when not hit?

 

[Top Boss]

well mr. Top Boss, what followups does his dair have? even when not hit?

Landing:jab, dash attack, all tilts, up/down smash, grab, Short hop Nair, Fast fall fair(mainly against floaties and super fat characters), Bair, and even another down air.
Full hop down air(all hits connect) combos into other aerials if a fast fall is timed correctly(even combos to another down air).
If you full hop, wait a tiny bit, then down air, you'll hit a grounded opponent with a diagonal hitbox. Combos into:
tilts/smash attacks(very low percent), footstool,all aerials(also at KO percent) and fox's custom side b, wolf flash.
Full hop down air is really effective on stages with platforms because you'll still autocancel even when landing on a platform.
lot more than you thought, eh?

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

Oh my lord... yep...

 

[colinies]

So how good is Jab Jab -> Dash Attack -> Up Air?

Who does it work on? What percents? etc. etc.

 

[Krysco]

Greetings Foxs! I'm starting a video series where I analysis each stage, having already finished Battlefield, half way done Miiverse and starting my progress on Dream Land 64. One thing I noticed is that DL64 behaves strangely with numerous directional recoveries, including the young McCloud's. When you use Fire Fox (and its custom variants) horizontally on the base of DL64 you end the move in the air and therefore suffer the moves aerial endlag and landing lag. Is this a beneficial or detrimental thing for Fox? I doubt it matters much for vanilla Fox since Fire Fox is a rather subpar offensive tool but what about Twisting Fox?

 

[EpicSonicLatios]

A few quick things I wanted to share with you guys

I've noticed that full hop AC dair is useful as a cross up on shields. If you time the move so that only the end hit strikes the opponent's shield, you have an opportunity to pressure the opponent with a quick tilt or even a turnaround grab as long as you land behind your opponent. They won't be able to shieldgrab you, meaning they have to rely on slower options to try and punish you. I don't know the exact frame data, but it seems pretty hard for the opponent to punish. Some opponents don't know how to react to this quickly, so even if it is technically punishable, it could still be a mixup for us, especially if the opponent has taken a liking to use shieldgrabs as their primary OOS option.

Shine stalling may be nerfed from brawl, but it is still an option that needs to be used more, in my opinion. A fact that is already known to some is that fox can get a boost in the air after using his shine immediately after hitstun ends. This can help to break up follow ups that are not true combos, and it can also mess with the timing of your opponent. Another use for shine spiking that was used in brawl was to use the shine above opponents as a way to make them guess when you will come down with an aerial, or if you will even use an aerial at all. Despite the current end lag on shine, I feel that this needs to be explored more, as fox could use shine above an enemy and mixup between escaping with an illusion, or falling with nair, dair or even bair. You won't be able to shine several times in a row like brawl, but some opponents may try to jump on what they think is a falling nair, only to have you shine and cause them to whiff a grab, potentially screwing up their timing to allow punishment.

It is widely known to fox mains that illusion has a low amount of landing lag when initiated in the air. But I have discovered something similar with fire fox. If you initiate Firefox while standing on the ground, and aim the move along the ground, the endlag of the move is actually very low. If you manage to hit an opponent with the very end of the move, you can COMBO (yes COMBO) this move into U-tilt, Nair, and even Uair, which Is a kill combo high percents. Even if the combos are hard to perform in an actual match, the low eng lag on this move allows for some interesting possibilities, and the move seems relatively safeon shield (although it is probably shieldgrababble). In general I think this move has some traits we need to look into. May not be anything really useful, but it's something we could at least research.

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

Are there any good combos from fox's d-tilt or side-tilt?
When should lasers be used?
Are there any combos off of his shine? (well i use one, i shine them on the ledge, and while they are off the ledge, i carry them down with his F-air, so is that good?)

 

[colinies]

Are there any good combos from fox's d-tilt or side-tilt?
When should lasers be used?
Are there any combos off of his shine? (well i use one, i shine them on the ledge, and while they are off the ledge, i carry them down with his F-air, so is that good?)

I can kill two birds with one stone here, don't use shine. Instead, use f-tilt to knock them off the ledge then use the fair. Also, at the ledge, if they shield utilt then you can turn around f tilt and usually catch them with that or put on more shield pressure

 

[EpicSonicLatios]

Are there any good combos from fox's d-tilt or side-tilt?
When should lasers be used?
Are there any combos off of his shine? (well i use one, i shine them on the ledge, and while they are off the ledge, i carry them down with his F-air, so is that good?)

Fox's tippered down tilt does have true combos. Most notably it leads into uair for a kill combo at high percents, but good luck finding an easy way landing the tipper dtilt. It can also lead into an Ftilt or maybe a jab or dash grab at very low percents for non true combo strings. As far as Ftilt, I have landed Ftilt to dash attack as a true combo, but I don't know if it's character specific or not. Either way, if you land an Ftilt and they don't tech, you could get a dash attack or even an up smash, securing a kill off a simple missed tech. This may not work on some floaties though.

Also, are you on Pokemon showdown? I remember seeing your name pop up in the wifi room last year (before I stopped Pokemon to play smash) but I'm not sure if that was you XD. Showdown has a smashbros room now too.

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

Fox's tippered down tilt does have true combos. Most notably it leads into uair for a kill combo at high percents, but good luck finding an easy way landing the tipper dtilt. It can also lead into an Ftilt or maybe a jab or dash grab at very low percents for non true combo strings. As far as Ftilt, I have landed Ftilt to dash attack as a true combo, but I don't know if it's character specific or not. Either way, if you land an Ftilt and they don't tech, you could get a dash attack or even an up smash, securing a kill off a simple missed tech. This may not work on some floaties though.

Also, are you on Pokemon showdown? I remember seeing your name pop up in the wifi room last year (before I stopped Pokemon to play smash) but I'm not sure if that was you XD. Showdown has a smashbros room now too.

Ok, thanks for the extra hint with the D-tilt having a tipper effect.

also yes i am on PS! and Smogon... Under the same name.

 

[Skarfelt]

Are there any good combos from fox's d-tilt or side-tilt?
When should lasers be used?

Fox's DTilt has three hitboxes. The move is actually slower than DSmash so we're only interested in its combo potential for the most part. The first hitbox is when they're close to you and is pretty much worthless. The second hitbox is near the tipper and can combo into Uair until around 100 on most characters without rage. Tipper hitbox combos into Uair for a LONG time. The move can be used to catch people on the ledge as you can combo it into Uair afterwards and it has a lower cooldown than DSmash. In general, though, the move isn't great because we lack the setups to go into it.

FTilt imo is extremely good. It unfortunatey has transcendant properties so it doesn't clank with anything but it has an extremely low cooldown, good range and combo potential. Against some characters like Charizard, a down angled ftilt will hit them on the ledge. I generally use this move a lot when covering ledge getups. It has three active frames and can stuff jump and regular get up if timed right and angled right. Even if they roll, the cooldown is low enough to not get punished. Pivot FTilt has an interesting hitbox that sends them in the direction you're running when connected with the hip hitbox. This combos into Dash Attack and USmash at KO%. Spaced Ftilt is also pretty safe on block so that's cool.

Lasers are hard to explain when's good but basically don't get into the habit of mashing the button. Quite often you won't want to fie as many and you'll just keep buffering lasers. Hit the button for each laser and nothing more. If your opponent is doing a lot of empty hops and dash mixups, just fire a few lasers. In general though just wawtch yourself back, see where your lasers have been punished and see where you could have used lasers and not been punished.

 

[luke_atyeo]

Fox's DTilt has three hitboxes. The move is actually slower than DSmash so we're only interested in its combo potential for the most part. The first hitbox is when they're close to you and is pretty much worthless. The second hitbox is near the tipper and can combo into Uair until around 100 on most characters without rage. Tipper hitbox combos into Uair for a LONG time. The move can be used to catch people on the ledge as you can combo it into Uair afterwards and it has a lower cooldown than DSmash. In general, though, the move isn't great because we lack the setups to go into it.

slower startup then downsmash but less overall frames yeah, I've found that the tipper hitbox of dtilt will combo into a perfect pivot utilt at early percents to start utilt chain nonsense, but landing the dtilt can be tricky, you really have to do it out of a walk but foxes walk is pretty quick so its an option, still I feel like just using dash attack works better in most situations.

And yeah careful laser use is best, its more often a way of saying to your opponen 'hey btw I have these so you need to come to me' rather than using it to actually build up damage, getting your opponents to come after you is generally a good game state if you have good movement and can get them to chase you around.
If you wanna be super awesome with laser game you could try work this into your game so you can always run away to create space and instantly convert that space into laser damage - http://giphy.com/gifs/l41lQ5Fa9iBtnYKNW -


Also skarfelt moydow is in Aus atm, he any good?

 

[Top Boss]

Fox's f+d tilt have a ton of combos. Mind if I make a big post here explaining it? It'll be pretty long, considering I lab a ton with Fox.
(As a side note, how do I change my mains for smash 4? Since i don't main ganondorf anymore