Dark Dire Wolf
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So how's the Sheik matchup looking now?
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Mission Complete!- Fox Discussion Thread
- Thread starter NAKAT
- Start date
Foster J.
Smash Ace
Nothings changed?
Dark Dire Wolf
Smash Journeyman
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Fox is untouched based on the datamine or whatever it's called.
EnhaloTricks
Smash Apprentice
It's looking better now. Played some games with Karna (top Sheik in TX) and I frequently lived until 140%+ until fair could kill me.
We still get edgeguarded like a mofo, but that's to be expected. I do expect Sheik's to optimize her edgeguarding game though, so I don't know if the MU will have gotten better for the long-run or the short-term.
Tenretsujin10
Smash Apprentice
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Howdy, not sure if this was discovered/discussed on the Fox boards already, but I came across an advanced tech that would be beneficial to Fox players.
Lagless Airdodge Ledge Jump:
I by no means am the one that discovered this, found this on Ito's youtube channel showcasing MK performing it. But I feel that Fox has more benefits from this tech/can perform more easily than other characters.
The tech begins with holding onto the ledge. Hold the analog stick down/away (your preference) to let go of the ledge. Then immediately jump towards the stage and airdodge. Now, if you don't do anything after the airdodge when you land on the ground you'll eat the airdodge landing frames. This is where the tech comes in place.
*Right before you land on the ground, input a back air/up air. Your aerials will autocancel upon landing and you'll experience no landing lag. Back air/Up air both have extremely generous AC frames (1-8) which makes this technique pretty easy to pull off.
This seems like a useful ledge recovery mixup for Fox and can potentially be used to reset back to neutral/punish your opponent.
Lagless Airdodge Ledge Jump:
I by no means am the one that discovered this, found this on Ito's youtube channel showcasing MK performing it. But I feel that Fox has more benefits from this tech/can perform more easily than other characters.
The tech begins with holding onto the ledge. Hold the analog stick down/away (your preference) to let go of the ledge. Then immediately jump towards the stage and airdodge. Now, if you don't do anything after the airdodge when you land on the ground you'll eat the airdodge landing frames. This is where the tech comes in place.
*Right before you land on the ground, input a back air/up air. Your aerials will autocancel upon landing and you'll experience no landing lag. Back air/Up air both have extremely generous AC frames (1-8) which makes this technique pretty easy to pull off.
This seems like a useful ledge recovery mixup for Fox and can potentially be used to reset back to neutral/punish your opponent.
Nate22Hill
Smash Apprentice
Does anyone know any up smash set ups besides down air to running up smash?
Foster J.
Smash Ace
Dair to Running Usmash/JC Usmash/Tech Chase Usmash
Falling weak hit nair to Usmash / Tech chase Usmash
Tipper jab jab to Usmash (Not true on frame 3 nairs until 120-130)
Back hit of Pivot Ftilt to Usmash
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
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so now that my smash corner has covered bidou, people are going to be talking about it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mH528Pdh1Rk for reference)
Who wants to do some playing around with it and see if it's best for fox?
I get the feeling that because of how much we use utilt and PP utilt, that tilt stick is still the way to go on fox, but with some experimenting this might end up being better.
Who wants to do some playing around with it and see if it's best for fox?
I get the feeling that because of how much we use utilt and PP utilt, that tilt stick is still the way to go on fox, but with some experimenting this might end up being better.
EnhaloTricks
Smash Apprentice
Is jab 1/2 usmash true at certain percents? It always feels like the usmash is a read for me.
luke_atyeo
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yes but there are a few things to keep in mind
it of course not only works on only certain percents, but also only against certain characters, and the percent changes on the character obviously (Also pretty sure rage comes into effect too)
the most important part of it is the spacing, foxes jab 2 has a few different hitboxes (with differing knockbacks and angles), you need to hit with the very tip of jab 2 to get the proper combo.
Dark Dire Wolf
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I don't see dair>usmash often at the highest level of play. Is the combo techable or is dair just very easy to defend against?
ZeroJanitor
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The latter I'd assume.
Nate22Hill
Smash Apprentice
Thank you
Foster J.
Smash Ace
You can shield it, so it's a risk, and yes it is techable if they react and DI downwards leading into a tech chase, in general it's about what hitbox you get and what percentage they are at.
I recall talking briefly to Scarfelt about at which percentages that Dair to Usmash would stop working, and with rage you can't expect landing it past 120-140.
I so think the better and slightly safer option might be to do a weak hit Nair to Usmash, though slightly harder to pull off imo as they can also DI that.
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ArchonTheAvatar
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What are Fox's worst MU's and what character counters them?
You'll generally hear floaties because you can't combo them as easily. This means Rosa, Mario, Luigi, and importantly Kirby. Others are Sheik and Bayo because Fox himself gets combo'd easily. Ito an falln recently did a sort of match up tier list found here on r/smashbros. You'll see in the post a link to a match up chart which includes Fox and some of his match ups vs the top tiers.
Additionally, this is the best Fox player, Larry Lurr's match up chart, before 1.1.5 I believe.
As to what covers, most people will suggest Mario and Meta Knight. They are decent vs floaties etc.
Additionally, this is the best Fox player, Larry Lurr's match up chart, before 1.1.5 I believe.
As to what covers, most people will suggest Mario and Meta Knight. They are decent vs floaties etc.
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Rango the Mercenary
The Mercenary
So I'm watching Larry Lurr vs. Fatality right now. I was wondering, are his combos true on most of the roster or only on fast fallers and heavies? Also, are they DI dependent?
There is obviously no single answer for all of the things Larry does, but I can give my best insight on a few things in this set. I may be wrong with everything I say, and I'm still relatively new, but I study Larry a lot and do enough homework to where I feel confident in answering most of these things. But if anyone reads this and knows better than me, PLEASE correct me. Before that, it is Falcon, who is a very good combo dummy (fast faller, big etc). I practice my combos on a lot of characters, but I almost always start with Falcon.
1. Fox down throw grab follow ups are DI dependent, AT BEST 50/50s, and never true. The Fair -> Uair follow up doesn't work if they DI certain ways, and most people avoid this 30% string. Generally RAR Bair or Nair are easier to land, because they work if your enemy knows to DI away (I think Larry and Xzax's thoughts are if they DI away to avoid Fair, the RAR bair is a 50/50 (airdodge or don't)). These options won't be true, they will be 50/50s at some percents, and later on the opponent can jump out. Sometimes you can land an Uair but thats another story. Disclaimer: this entire set is a very good example of Larry reading and reacting to Fatality's DI on Dthrow. It is very different and Larry goes for every follow up, except Nair I believe.
2. His first kill on FD is a late nair to usmash, like Dair to usmash are technically 50/50s. If they DI a certain way, they will be able to tech, meaning you most likely won't be able to kill without a successful read. If they DI poorly, they are true combos, at certain percents. You can see a perfect example of Larry reading the tech after proper DI from Fatality in the second kill on FD, and his first kill on FD the second set.
3. His string on Fatality's second stock does not begin true. The Fair after the dthrow can be air dodged (obviously if they DI correctly). However, everything after is absolutely a true combo. The FF Fair > Ftilt angled > SH AC Uair > FH Uair is all true, I'm not sure about the Dair. These combos almost all start with FF Fair, and there are many follow ups. These combos are disgustingly good. You can find stuff about them in the discord group as well as other places around here. It's something like FF Fair > Ftilt > Ftilt > SH AC uair > FH uair, usually starting from a last-hit FH AC Dair because that does true combo into FF Fair, unlike Dthrow set ups. I don't practice this one yet, so I follow up any FF Fair with a dtilt as a true combo that is far less optimal and way less stylish, cause I suck.
4. The Uair strings on T&C can be broken up into two groups. The first two in one, and the last four.
a. The first two come from a dthrow. The Uair follow up I believe is a 50/50 based on Fatality's DI. The second uair I believe is true, because Larry SH AC the first Uair.
b. I BELIEVE the second and third of the second group (total 4) are true combos. They are both AC, one from a SH, and one from a FH AC on the platform.
This string is pretty silly. He essentially takes a stock with solely Uair. Even if Fatality had air dodged one of the early ones, he would likely land on the platform with lag and just get hit again.
5. That little combo during the second stock of T&C of side b > utilt > nair > ppivot utilt looked true? But yeah thats pretty hard to replicate, unlike everything else in this I've talked about.
6. The utilt > bair on the edge of DH is a thing, looks true. Utilt from the ledge often leads into Bair and Uair, and most people except Fox mains are unaware of it.
And some general stuff, its safe to say you have to know your stuff with Fox combos. Every character is different. Percents matter a lot, rage can matter, DI matters, stages matter, etc. There aren't a ton of true combos, and most of them aren't insane amounts of damage. Fox does have plenty of kill set ups (from nair, utilt, dair, side b, ftilt, dash attack, dtilt etc) however, and when timed correctly you will kill confirm your opponent. Hell if you forward throw and they DI in its a 50/50 confirm lol.
1. Fox down throw grab follow ups are DI dependent, AT BEST 50/50s, and never true. The Fair -> Uair follow up doesn't work if they DI certain ways, and most people avoid this 30% string. Generally RAR Bair or Nair are easier to land, because they work if your enemy knows to DI away (I think Larry and Xzax's thoughts are if they DI away to avoid Fair, the RAR bair is a 50/50 (airdodge or don't)). These options won't be true, they will be 50/50s at some percents, and later on the opponent can jump out. Sometimes you can land an Uair but thats another story. Disclaimer: this entire set is a very good example of Larry reading and reacting to Fatality's DI on Dthrow. It is very different and Larry goes for every follow up, except Nair I believe.
2. His first kill on FD is a late nair to usmash, like Dair to usmash are technically 50/50s. If they DI a certain way, they will be able to tech, meaning you most likely won't be able to kill without a successful read. If they DI poorly, they are true combos, at certain percents. You can see a perfect example of Larry reading the tech after proper DI from Fatality in the second kill on FD, and his first kill on FD the second set.
3. His string on Fatality's second stock does not begin true. The Fair after the dthrow can be air dodged (obviously if they DI correctly). However, everything after is absolutely a true combo. The FF Fair > Ftilt angled > SH AC Uair > FH Uair is all true, I'm not sure about the Dair. These combos almost all start with FF Fair, and there are many follow ups. These combos are disgustingly good. You can find stuff about them in the discord group as well as other places around here. It's something like FF Fair > Ftilt > Ftilt > SH AC uair > FH uair, usually starting from a last-hit FH AC Dair because that does true combo into FF Fair, unlike Dthrow set ups. I don't practice this one yet, so I follow up any FF Fair with a dtilt as a true combo that is far less optimal and way less stylish, cause I suck.
4. The Uair strings on T&C can be broken up into two groups. The first two in one, and the last four.
a. The first two come from a dthrow. The Uair follow up I believe is a 50/50 based on Fatality's DI. The second uair I believe is true, because Larry SH AC the first Uair.
b. I BELIEVE the second and third of the second group (total 4) are true combos. They are both AC, one from a SH, and one from a FH AC on the platform.
This string is pretty silly. He essentially takes a stock with solely Uair. Even if Fatality had air dodged one of the early ones, he would likely land on the platform with lag and just get hit again.
5. That little combo during the second stock of T&C of side b > utilt > nair > ppivot utilt looked true? But yeah thats pretty hard to replicate, unlike everything else in this I've talked about.
6. The utilt > bair on the edge of DH is a thing, looks true. Utilt from the ledge often leads into Bair and Uair, and most people except Fox mains are unaware of it.
And some general stuff, its safe to say you have to know your stuff with Fox combos. Every character is different. Percents matter a lot, rage can matter, DI matters, stages matter, etc. There aren't a ton of true combos, and most of them aren't insane amounts of damage. Fox does have plenty of kill set ups (from nair, utilt, dair, side b, ftilt, dash attack, dtilt etc) however, and when timed correctly you will kill confirm your opponent. Hell if you forward throw and they DI in its a 50/50 confirm lol.
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Foster J.
Smash Ace
There's a window to hitting Falcon as he Up B's to the ledge.
After the launch, he extends his hand, which will extend his hurtbox, meaning you have a larger window of hitting an Utilt or Dsmash when ledge guarding Falcon, and as he's also a heavy fast faller, he's generally launched correctly for the Bair follow up, which is a true follow up in most scenarios.
In general, most of Fox's combos work on most of the cast, the general exception are floaties, but most of them aren't true combos unless they are at least of decent size, so Fox could be considered a frame trap character in that regard.
His most rewarding follow ups, such as Utilt to Uair, is generally only something you'd true hit on a faster faller or big character, if it's neither of those, then trying to read an air dodge is what I have the most success with, but I'm no master.
After the launch, he extends his hand, which will extend his hurtbox, meaning you have a larger window of hitting an Utilt or Dsmash when ledge guarding Falcon, and as he's also a heavy fast faller, he's generally launched correctly for the Bair follow up, which is a true follow up in most scenarios.
In general, most of Fox's combos work on most of the cast, the general exception are floaties, but most of them aren't true combos unless they are at least of decent size, so Fox could be considered a frame trap character in that regard.
His most rewarding follow ups, such as Utilt to Uair, is generally only something you'd true hit on a faster faller or big character, if it's neither of those, then trying to read an air dodge is what I have the most success with, but I'm no master.
ArchonTheAvatar
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So are Luigi, Rosalina and Sheik Fox's only bad matchups?
Foster J.
Smash Ace
Fox has a bunch of bad MUs, Fox is generally "The top tier with bad mid and low tier MUs"
So besides Luigi, Rosalina, Sheik and Bayonetta might be considered the worst there are, but as even as Mario is considered, it's still a bad MU just on how neutral is played, forcing you to respect his Usmash.
In general, Ryu is also bad due to how early he can KO you and combo you to ****, You're almost always chasing Cloud, Kirby is hard to hit and combo, and Pikachu has safer options with a legit scary edge guard.
The list continue to a few more, then in general Larry's MU chart is pretty decent on the MU spread
So besides Luigi, Rosalina, Sheik and Bayonetta might be considered the worst there are, but as even as Mario is considered, it's still a bad MU just on how neutral is played, forcing you to respect his Usmash.
In general, Ryu is also bad due to how early he can KO you and combo you to ****, You're almost always chasing Cloud, Kirby is hard to hit and combo, and Pikachu has safer options with a legit scary edge guard.
The list continue to a few more, then in general Larry's MU chart is pretty decent on the MU spread
Top Boss
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Sheik is definitely not that bad for us.Fox has a bunch of bad MUs, Fox is generally "The top tier with bad mid and low tier MUs"
So besides Luigi, Rosalina, Sheik and Bayonetta might be considered the worst there are, but as even as Mario is considered, it's still a bad MU just on how neutral is played, forcing you to respect his Usmash.
In general, Ryu is also bad due to how early he can KO you and combo you to ****, You're almost always chasing Cloud, Kirby is hard to hit and combo, and Pikachu has safer options with a legit scary edge guard.
The list continue to a few more, then in general Larry's MU chart is pretty decent on the MU spread
Rango the Mercenary
The Mercenary
I don't see how Fox has slight advantage on Ike. He has to play extremely on point or else he's going to die at 80%. Ike can confirm kills on Fox and ruin him offstage. Fox has to rely on forced approach with Blaster camping or overall getting in and punishing mistimed retreating Nairs. He'll do best on juggle stages, like Battlefield, but Ike has most advantage on flat stages.
I think Ike vs. Fox is 50/50.
I think Ike vs. Fox is 50/50.
Foster J.
Smash Ace
She'll still combo you to 60 with the usual semantics, and can still edgeguard, sure she can't just win off a grab anymore but everything else remains, and you'll see more just using Ftilt or Dtilt to confirm into Uair, it got better but it's still a bad MU.
(But mostly just because he's such a fast faller and she got combos for days)
Fox is still better at running around on stage, but yeah throw him off stage and charge Eruption will end any illusion attempts to recover. But he's a huge target, and can't really do much out of a single jump due to the animation / recover / endlag of his moves so he's much easier to predict of what he wants to do.
But yeah a grab leads into pain, but in general, he's forced to waiting on Fox to approach, and in tournament, you can get camped for that lack of a decent approach.
luke_atyeo
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are you talking in general? It depends on which character you are playing, but generally if you put a hitbox between fox and the ledge (or at least the threat of one) you can make him have to go under and firefox to the stage.
It can be hard to hit foxes sideB so lingering hitboxes work well here, or projectiles if you have them.
Foster J.
Smash Ace
Don't answer him, he's Bayo filth :^)
Regardless, if you can't force ham to Fire fox towards the stage unless you actually edge guard his options to use illusion.
Regardless, if you can't force ham to Fire fox towards the stage unless you actually edge guard his options to use illusion.
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EnhaloTricks
Smash Apprentice
Jab 1 is never true to usmash.
Jab 1, 2 is true at higher percents (110%+ until maybe 150ish%?) but it HAS to be tippered. The tipper pops them into the air so it makes them susceptible to usmash. At earlier percents it can lead to other followups like dtilt etc. Easiest to do with a JC Usmash.
EnhaloTricks
Gracias amigo, I'll go lab it out
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ArchonTheAvatar
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Well RIP me perfect pivot dsmashing. You have to move your fingers so fast!
Garo
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What would be some good characters or tactics to use against Fox? I've fought against a few good ones recently and got completely destroyed, except for a few lucky wins. I can't seem to punish anything he does.
Rhus
We're going top speed!
Well, Ganon does struggle quite a bit with Lylat's hero.
I would advise you attempt to trap him in the corner of the stage and use Dtilt, Ftilt, and Uair to cover his options. These moves are fast enough with enough range to keep Fox off you. This combined with generous shield use (due to Fox's abysmal throw game) should prevent Fox from getting overwhelming momentum.
Ganon will have to rely on rage and his weight to KO Fox early and avoid death. Fox's killpower is okay but all of his confirms are useless against shield. Once you get him off stage Fair will finish him at early percents off the side. You want to avoid all situations where Fox is freely running around and shooting you, and I would advise against Battlefield and Dreamland in this MU because our platform pressure on the King of Evil is...merciless.
I had a quick question about jab locking with f tilt that arose when I was trying to lab out the ff fair to stage combo. For some reason, the cpu I'm practicing on sometimes can get-up roll, but its my understanding that after a jab locking move, the only option is neutral get up. Any ideas as to why?
The basic combo is the one from the discord, but for simplicity I'm starting with dthrow instead of last hit FH dair. I'm doing the following on gannon (set to walk) in training, from 0%: dthrow > ff fair > ftilt > ftilt > ftilt > sh laggy uair >fh uair. Like I said, occasionally the gannon will not get-up neutral and will roll (not near the stage's edge or anything). Ideas?
The basic combo is the one from the discord, but for simplicity I'm starting with dthrow instead of last hit FH dair. I'm doing the following on gannon (set to walk) in training, from 0%: dthrow > ff fair > ftilt > ftilt > ftilt > sh laggy uair >fh uair. Like I said, occasionally the gannon will not get-up neutral and will roll (not near the stage's edge or anything). Ideas?
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EnhaloTricks
Smash Apprentice
You're dragging them down too fast. When you do it you want to make sure that you fall below them so you hit the ground first. If you don't then you'll hit after, or at the same time and ff fair has enough lag that you won't be able to lock.
So, ideally, dthrow > ff fair (1 or 2 hits, mainly) then ftilt. And remember, on smaller characters you can do 1 normal ftilt then you have to do a low-angled one (like on Sheik). Larger characters you can do 3 normal ftilts.
IndigoSSB
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The Corrin Boards are currently discussion the match-up with Fox. If any of you Fox players would like to give your input it would be much appreciated!
http://smashboards.com/threads/fox-matchup-discussion.437572/
http://smashboards.com/threads/fox-matchup-discussion.437572/
ArchonTheAvatar
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I'm not sure if this is true (I think it is only if they miss the tech) but I think if you utilt into fair and autocancel the last hit of fair, it spikes them straight down. I usually utilt and do it again, though if I read them trying to tech the autocancel, I dtilt and try and keep them offstage.