Misconceptions about Ness that lead people to thinking he sucks.

[PKNintendo]

If we can work around them, we can potentially make them better.

1. Recovery.
This is a funny topic seeing as how alot of characters with inferior recoveries never get rapped on. I mean Olimar's recovery is undoubtedly worse, does it get rapped on? Not even close. E.c.t I could go on, but Ness is recovery is really hated on. It's iconic because it requires more effort to use. Geez.

2. Grab release animations. Now Everyone usually, or 99% state something stupid like this.

Ness get's CG by everyone

Not only is this not true, it's incredibly annoying.
another quote being.
Me: Why do you place Ness that low?

Chaingrab.

Im serious, thats it. Nothing special but just a nonchalant blatant statement.

3. Tourney results

People only look at the recent results, but for the fall results Ness was top of E ahead of notables such as Mario and Lucas.


Now if an SBR reads this, I am not ripping on them OR their topic. Just pointing out misconceptions.

 

[Alus]

its about time...

 

[MrEh]

Not only is this not true, it's incredibly annoying.

People need to realize that the only character that can realistically **** Ness out of a grab release is Bowser.

 

[shinhed-echi]

That's funny. The best Bowser in my community destroyed my main, ROB last time. But I got him back with Ness. :D That boy packs some surprises I tell ya!

 

[Levitas]

People need to realize that the only character that can realistically **** Ness out of a grab release is Bowser.

huh? I think you're forgetting someone.

 

[Blistering Speed]

1. Recovery.
This is a funny topic seeing as how alot of characters with inferior recoveries never get rapped on. I mean Olimar's recovery is undoubtedly worse, does it get rapped on? Not even close. E.c.t I could go on, but Ness is recovery is really hated on. It's iconic because it requires more effort to use.

Erm what? People constantly 'rap' on Olimar's recovery. People use recovery as a blanket statement for putting Olimar low in the same way you described with Ness and CG's.

 

[Earthbound360]

Ness has it worse, trust me. It's probaly because they cant even recover themselves. Olimar's is at least easy to handle.

I hate CG claimers. With EIDI, SGB, and Smash DI (for those powerful, multi-hit grab releases like Bowser Bomb and Pit's Fsmash) Ness is hardly threatened by it anymore. Put in counterpick stages like Pirate Ship or Onett and you have a perfectly fine character when it comes to grabs.

People also say his smashes suck just because they dont KO. I guess they just dont know how to use the yo-yos at all. They're beautiful smashes. Fsmash is meh though. People probably overuse fsmash (or smashes in general) hoping to win since you can do that with a few characters, but they fail, lose, and blame Ness.

 

[Levitas]

I disagree. Marth kills ness as early with a grab (at least) because of the grab release as ness kills marth w/ a grab.

 

[Ref]

Bum taught me how to use Ness' forward smash. Or slow f smashes in general... I think Ness' and DKs are like the exact same speed. I'll test that later.

And levitas you confused me.

Also please don't smash DI bowser bomb out you might end up with a smash DI'd out F tilt to the face. Try in better or just face it. I don't know if in works.

 

[ColinJF]

I use Ness's forward smash a lot. It's good for outspacing a lot of moves if you predict them, it can hit characters when they are landing, and so on. It also shield stabs quite a bit.

 

[Earthbound360]

The Marth grab release is pretty weak with EIDI correct? It cannot lead to an fsmash if Ness is handling it right, and only a dsmash which KOs tippered at 130%. DI inward and you should live longer.

And Ref, you confuse me also. Whats this about Bowser?

 

[Ref]

Marth's grab release doesn't work with EIDI.

Bowser can F tilt you out of a grab release. Or bowser bomb so if you SDI outward you may SDI outward a forward tilt

 

[Levitas]

Since when can you escape the Dsmash with EIDI?

 

[Ref]

Since when can you escape the Dsmash with EIDI?

The Dsmash works I'm talking about the chain grab

 

[Mr. Escalator]

E.c.t I could go on, ...

It's Etc.
Et cetera.

Anyway, that bugged me!

@Ref: From your Frame data thread, Ness hits with his Fsmash on frame 21. Going by the frame data thread that is stickied in the Donkey Kong section, his hits on frame 22. They are essentially as quick as each other.

I agree that Ness' recovery isn't that bad. Smart placement and use of your second jump will keep you out of a good deal of harmful situations, and PK Thunder isn't so slow that they are going to be running offstage and stealing your thunder when they hear you shouting it.

 

[neomadgic]

They underestimate his priorities. Which makes Ness pretty deadly if they have no matchup experience.

 

[Earthbound360]

DI in works Im pretty sure for the Bowser Bomb.

And Levitas, I never said you could EIDI the dsmash release. You can do BASIC DI inwards to make sure its not a tipper.

 

[Levitas]

DI in works Im pretty sure for the Bowser Bomb.

And Levitas, I never said you could EIDI the dsmash release. You can do BASIC DI inwards to make sure its not a tipper.

That much is true. Too bad it's a lose-lose choice.

 

[Ref]

You don't get Tippered when you EIDI so why DI in?

 

[Tyr_03]

forget chaingrabs. Ness is pathetically easy to gimp with pretty much any character. As soon as I take out your second jump you're dead. All I have to do is edgehog and not be dumb enough to get hit with PKT2.

 

[Ref]

forget chaingrabs. Ness is pathetically easy to gimp with pretty much any character. As soon as I take out your second jump you're dead. All I have to do is edgehog and not be dumb enough to get hit with PKT2.

Not necessarily... Even if so you'll see it's a lot easier said than done.

 

[Masky]

forget chaingrabs. Ness is pathetically easy to gimp with pretty much any character. As soon as I take out your second jump you're dead. All I have to do is edgehog and not be dumb enough to get hit with PKT2.

Well what you don't realize is that every character in the game is pathetically easy to kill with Ness. As soon as I get your % to 120 or above you're dead, all I have to do is grab and press backwards.

 

[Tyr_03]

^^^
I've played Ness players before. It's not hard to gimp him at all.

And yeah, if I get you to 120% I'll Dair combo you and you're dead. Oh wait I can do that at lower percentages too. Oh wait I don't even have to compromise my spacing or rely on you making major errors to do it. Getting a grab is not pathetically easy if you're playing someone who knows how to space himself well, especially since I'm going to know that you're going for grabs since it's Ness's most reliable kill move.

 

[Ref]

Back air/u air or sour spotted D air are more reliable than Back throw.... Even Gimping or N air are more reliable.

 

[Masky]

^^^
I've played Ness players before. It's not hard to gimp him at all.

And yeah, if I get you to 120% I'll Dair combo you and you're dead. Oh wait I can do that at lower percentages too. Oh wait I don't even have to compromise my spacing or rely on you making major errors to do it. Getting a grab is not pathetically easy if you're playing someone who knows how to space himself well, especially since I'm going to know that you're going for grabs since it's Ness's most reliable kill move.

lol I was making fun of how dumb your post was, chill out dude... wtf is a dair combo though?

 

[Tyr_03]

And I was making fun of how all the low tier boards think that the SBR doesn't know anything about their character.

 

[_clinton]

Meh...for having only 2 main moves for a recovey, with an Fair boost and a stall skill...I'd say Ness' recovery is ok...Its fun knowing that the range on PKT2 is the same as the 2nd jump or so...

 

[MrEh]

I hate CG claimers. With EIDI, SGB, and Smash DI (for those powerful, multi-hit grab releases like Bowser Bomb and Pit's Fsmash) Ness is hardly threatened by it anymore

Bowser doesn't need to Bowser Bomb Ness when he can just grab him again. Seriously, Bowser has twice the amount of time Marth has to grab Ness again. It's really easy.

Bowser can F tilt you out of a grab release. Or bowser bomb so if you SDI outward you may SDI outward a forward tilt

Or he can just grab Ness again, which is my favorite option.


EIDI is useless against Bowser's almighty (and somewhat funny) chaingrab.

 

[Ref]

EIDI is useless against Bowser's almighty (and somewhat funny) chaingrab.

True too bad jump breaking is useful.

 

[MrEh]

True too bad jump breaking is useful.

Yeah, but then Ness gets Klawed. XD

It's a bad situation either way.

 

[Ref]

Yeah, but then Ness gets Klawed. XD

It's a bad situation either way.

Actually Ness can jump out from the Klaw... I'm pretty sure....

So Jump break Double jump

 

[MrEh]

Actually Ness can jump out from the Klaw... I'm pretty sure....

So Jump break Double jump

Really? I could have sworn that works...

Dunno, I guess we can confirm everything once Vex is done retesting everything. I did the testing once, and I'm not doing it again. That was hell...

 

[knightzy]

no ones recovery is useless,i main olimar and second ness,if ya know how to use em' you will not getr gimped,hell my olimar reguarly passes the 185% mark without death.

 

[Brinzy]

In fact, I suggest Ness players start DIing attacks up more often.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Let's not kid ourselves here. Ness's recovery has gimpability as a weakness and IMO it is his characters biggest flaw. However, it's not something that makes him a bad character. To me it just stops Ness from being high tier and drops him into mid tier - my honest opinion. His moveset is easily that of high tier, but his gimpability will cost him stocks that bring him to be about a mid tier character.

Yes you can avoid being gimped by a lot of characters, but a lot of characters can do it pretty easily if they understand it correctly and predict you. Smart recovery will stop most of it. Don't forget at low percentages people will eat your PKT2, and slow your momentum enough for you not to grab the edge. Maybe I'm missing something but if somoene follows my recovery angle and just jumps RIGHT above my head there's no way I can hit them with the tail instead and I feel pretty helpless. You can be smart and recover high, and you will never be gimped, but this leaves you open to taking hits and percentage. It is a pretty glaring weakness when your recovery leaves you immobile for any period of time like that.

Please take note that people who never faced a Ness have a 0% chance of gimping Ness, but those with matchup experience will understand how to approach it. In the Peach vs Ness match I just float at the ledge and let go whenever Ness PKT2's. If he went for the ledge he bounces off, if he went above I get a free hit (jumping on the stage with aerial) his recovery still leaves him open to punishment if the Ness does what it takes to avoid being gimped.

The chaingrabbing misconception is dumb. It hardly effects me. There's EIDI and there's also the fact that grab releases don't add damage, and people mess up so often they would have been better off throwing the Ness with a regular throw. The only thing grab release chaingrabs are good for are recharging moves. The only one who can actually do it is DK, and it's really easy to not get grabbed by DK. A lot of characters are forced into air releasing Ness (if you mash only the jump buttons and directional, as long as your toes don't touch the ground) and most can't follow it up with an attack that would have done more damage then a back or down throw.

People need to realize that for every grab release you do you miss out on like 12% damage. Factoring this in makes grab release **** "kinda beneficial" by a couple of percent each grab, hardly character breaking.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

Edreeses is pretty much right. Play Ness, It's hard to really do a Ace recovery on Ness. One must remember that recovery just doesn't account airspeed or how far one can go in a single jump set, but also by mobility in the air, Zone of vulernability, and the effects after your Jump.

It's strange to see that Ness's best game is in the air, but he lacks the "recovery" point of it. Even 'C' jumping doesn't really help him as it did in Melee with a slight boost in it, but now, it seems like his mobility in the air is limited. I think his PKT is probably the main reason he's just a step below Lucas.

 

[Neon Ness]

I think his PKT is probably the main reason he's just a step below Lucas.

Actually, it's the alphabet. They're even.

 

[Brinzy]

Yeah, based off of votes.

I don't buy it.

 

[PKNintendo]

Let's not kid ourselves here. Ness's recovery has gimpability as a weakness and IMO it is his characters biggest flaw. However, it's not something that makes him a bad character. To me it just stops Ness from being high tier and drops him into mid tier - my honest opinion. His moveset is easily that of high tier, but his gimpability will cost him stocks that bring him to be about a mid tier character.

Yes you can avoid being gimped by a lot of characters, but a lot of characters can do it pretty easily if they understand it correctly and predict you. Smart recovery will stop most of it. Don't forget at low percentages people will eat your PKT2, and slow your momentum enough for you not to grab the edge. Maybe I'm missing something but if somoene follows my recovery angle and just jumps RIGHT above my head there's no way I can hit them with the tail instead and I feel pretty helpless. You can be smart and recover high, and you will never be gimped, but this leaves you open to taking hits and percentage. It is a pretty glaring weakness when your recovery leaves you immobile for any period of time like that.

Please take note that people who never faced a Ness have a 0% chance of gimping Ness, but those with matchup experience will understand how to approach it. In the Peach vs Ness match I just float at the ledge and let go whenever Ness PKT2's. If he went for the ledge he bounces off, if he went above I get a free hit (jumping on the stage with aerial) his recovery still leaves him open to punishment if the Ness does what it takes to avoid being gimped.

The chaingrabbing misconception is dumb. It hardly effects me. There's EIDI and there's also the fact that grab releases don't add damage, and people mess up so often they would have been better off throwing the Ness with a regular throw. The only thing grab release chaingrabs are good for are recharging moves. The only one who can actually do it is DK, and it's really easy to not get grabbed by DK. A lot of characters are forced into air releasing Ness (if you mash only the jump buttons and directional, as long as your toes don't touch the ground) and most can't follow it up with an attack that would have done more damage then a back or down throw.

People need to realize that for every grab release you do you miss out on like 12% damage. Factoring this in makes grab release **** "kinda beneficial" by a couple of percent each grab, hardly character breaking.

Awesome wall, Awesome indeed.

And MrEh is right Bowser grab release>Marth's.

 

[Ref]

What Edrees said, anyway guys I'm working on a smash DI project that will save Ness from gimping stuff.

I've actually recently pulled a Smash DI'd a attack to foot stool... Back in some friendlies where I really wasn't going to take being gimped.

I'll continue the project and hopefully get some real match time recorded videos where I do it.