Mini Game | Werewolves win

[#HBC | J]

Also I am phone posting so yeah. Plus there really isn't much to defend?

And Rosa, literally yesterDay was tons of Zalak vs. Me.

 

[Spak]

I may be a bit slow to get to stuff; internet just went down, so goodbye possible walls. Stick on phone... Touch typing is so much faster.

 

[Spak]

*Stuck.

Autocorrect is already poisoning my posts lol.

 

[Zalak]

He said he didnt want today to be a repeag of yesterday though which is good overall
/hea prolly town for me

why is he town for you?

sorry about that. I didn't mean to cause such offence. I'd been a bit ticked off that day, and didn't want to go over all this again, but that doesn't really excuse my actions.

It's all good. Sorry you didn't have a good day.

I'm not sure if you were defending him (it was 40-50 pages back, my memory doesn't stretch that far) but if you were, why? I get you were seeing how he would act when not under pressure, but what would that say about him? Wouldn't it have been better to keep him under pressure, and hope he either cracks eventually and slips up, or manages to handle the pressure effectively, giving you a town read of him?

I didn't think pressure against him would be fruitful, because I didn't think he really knew how to defend himself. Basically, I wanted to see what would happen if we just let him scum-hunt, instead of forcing him to focus on defense. I felt like everyone was jumping on him.

I'm not too sure you can say that. Although he has come out to avoid answering your questions, I believe it was with good reason, and that he would have been forced to answer any further questions of yours without being a hypocrite.

I personally feel like he's just allergic to the spotlight. Every time I come at J he says something like "alright, it's time for me to educate you zalak" or "let me give you some IC advice" or "that's not how this game works". I don't know if I can think of even a single townie reason for not answering someone's questions, unless it's something like "who do you think the doctor is"... something potentially harmful to the town. J's also gone on record saying he hasn't ever refused to defend himself from an accusation, it's just that no one's directly come at him, but I feel like I've been coming at him for a while, receiving little to no legitimate defenses from him. JUST NOW, I got some of the most decisive evidence ever, and he chooses to ignore it.

Hm... kk I'll try to let him answer first next time.
Also, I'm not sure which piece of IC advice this contradicts. Care to quote?

Zalak, I'm giving you advice as an IC.

If person A makes a case against person B, it is not person C/D/E/F/G/etc.'s job to dispute the case that A made against B.

The only reasons one would do that is if 1.) They were passionate about their read of Person B. 2.) They had proof that person A was wrong on Person B. 3.) They are being too nosy for their own business.

You're bringing up a really faulty point against me and keep trying to throw it in my face. It was not my place to dispute your case, I was not interested in doing so, and it would have hindered the connections you two were drawing to each other and the views of those watching. It would have muddled the argument and the game would have become more convoluted then it already has been with the constant borderline spamming of the thread that happened pages ago.

the infamous....

I really don't like this. By this point, I would've imagined you would've had strong reads on some people at some point, but mostly you just have weak leans, and your strongest town reads are inactives. To me, that seems... off.

sorry, that was more of a long story short kinda thing. I did have strong scum leans on J and Slick, what I meant to say was everyone else had done something that made me see them as probably scum, but Spak's slot and Red's slot felt mostly clean at that point.

Right, now let's deal with this.
Your observations have been good, in that many of my current reads don't have nearly the evidence to back them up as my earlier reads. Unfortunately, that's just because most of my strongest reads have been turned on their heads, and I've lost my foundations. Slick, my strongest read, who I was willing to take to lylo in D1/2, was just lynched, and he turned out to be a WW. J, my other read, hasn't actually posted anything obviously townie, but he's agreed with me on many things, we've been on the same wavelength, etc. etc. I was good with him. Then he turned out to be ridiculously senior, and I had to deal with him as if he were you in our previous game (i.e. perfect player). Simply coming to the same conclusions as me would be simple for him, and I have limited ideas about his allegiance. tbh, the main reason he's up there in my townie list was because I'd deliberately assumed 4 townies, just so I didn't have to work him out nor risk mislynching our most experienced player.

alright, this seems pretty legit, and I no believe you're partners with J, because I'm PRETTY GOSH DARNED SURE that J is Slick's WW buddy.

Also, could you stop with the gifs/pics/songs/jokes. Or just significantly lessen them. They're filling in the thread with clutter.

I WILL TRY TO LESSEN THEM/STOP. Sorry, I just love that kinda stuff.

 

[Zalak]

Plus there really isn't much to defend?

see this is what frustrates me. this is basically the only defense I've heard from J all game. I feel like J's guilt is this big elephant in the room. like, it's so obvious that he's scum, and ya'll are just cool with it.

 

[#HBC | J]

Hmm new tactic.

I'm gonna put Zalak on mute for a bit, and look at this game objectively so I can sort other things out.

 

[Zalak]

Hmm new tactic.

I'm gonna put Zalak on mute for a bit, and look at this game objectively so I can sort other things out.

He acts like he's above having to defend himself, and you're all buying into it.

 

[Zalak]

I need to chill though :/

 

[#HBC | J]

I'm not acting like anything haha.

Serisously, you have an ego trip bro. It needs to stop.

When I see egos, I squash them.

Regardless, if you wanna go with Round X of your J push, go for it. I'm just gonna go focus on other things because there are 4 scum left.

And I'm still phone posting so just stop lmao.

 

[#HBC | J]

I need to chill though :/

Yes, you do. It's seriously making the game not fun whenever I see a notification that you've posted for me.

 

[Spak]

He acts like he's above having to defend himself, and you're all buying into it.

Taking a step back from the situation and coming at if with a fresh perspective can help you find stuff you didn't see before; responding to every accusation would kinda interrupt that. I agree wholeheartedly, though, that once J gets his hands on a keyboard, he should defend himself.

Also, 5-2 is 3 scum.

 

[Zalak]

Yes, you do. It's seriously making the game not fun whenever I see a notification that you've posted for me.

no, i mean chill as in calm down and figure out a way to prove your guilt to everyone else. i'm not gonna let you live just because you want me to.

 

[#HBC | J]

That's not even what I said.

*sigh*

 

[Zalak]

sorry i meant to also quote this

And I'm still phone posting so just stop lmao.

 

[Orboknown]

Wait, what happened yesterday? I don't recall Zalak making this sort of attack yesterday irl...

YesterDay
As in last day phase

 

[Orboknown]

why is he town for you?


It's all good. Sorry you didn't have a good day.


I didn't think pressure against him would be fruitful, because I didn't think he really knew how to defend himself. Basically, I wanted to see what would happen if we just let him scum-hunt, instead of forcing him to focus on defense. I felt like everyone was jumping on him.


I personally feel like he's just allergic to the spotlight. Every time I come at J he says something like "alright, it's time for me to educate you zalak" or "let me give you some IC advice" or "that's not how this game works". I don't know if I can think of even a single townie reason for not answering someone's questions, unless it's something like "who do you think the doctor is"... something potentially harmful to the town. J's also gone on record saying he hasn't ever refused to defend himself from an accusation, it's just that no one's directly come at him, but I feel like I've been coming at him for a while, receiving little to no legitimate defenses from him. JUST NOW, I got some of the most decisive evidence ever, and he chooses to ignore it.


the infamous....

sorry, that was more of a long story short kinda thing. I did have strong scum leans on J and Slick, what I meant to say was everyone else had done something that made me see them as probably scum, but Spak's slot and Red's slot felt mostly clean at that point.


alright, this seems pretty legit, and I no believe you're partners with J, because I'm PRETTY GOSH DARNED SURE that J is Slick's WW buddy.

I WILL TRY TO LESSEN THEM/STOP. Sorry, I just love that kinda stuff.

Thoughts matching mine, thought processes kind of evident in thread, activelt engaging people.

 

[Orboknown]

I'm not acting like anything haha.

Serisously, you have an ego trip bro. It needs to stop.

When I see egos, I squash them.

Regardless, if you wanna go with Round X of your J push, go for it. I'm just gonna go focus on other things because there are 4 scum left.

And I'm still phone posting so just stop lmao.

(Three scum brah)

 

[#HBC | J]

Herp derp, Mafia was NK'd.

This is so weird. I've never played Jungle Republic before.

 

[Orboknown]

All these years youve never player jr before? This is like my third one

 

[#HBC | J]

Mhm, still learning after 5+ years haha.

Gotta love this game.

 

[#HBC | J]

Zalak, I am going to offer a compromise. List the 3-5 main reasons as to why you think I am scum and I will combat/defend them in largess detail and then I am going to move on from you toDay. This is a fair agreement because we both get what we want. You want me to defend myself (even though I have on multiple occassions and also entertained your musing for quite sometime now) and I get to actually scum-hunt which I have been wanting to do for a while and not be brought into this pissing contest you've derived between our two slots.

=========

I have a bigger project in mind for toDay and I'd like to get to that. I want to do a slot by slot analysis since we have a flipped Mafia and a flipped WW, we should have enough pieces to collectively figure out the puzzle. I'm currently looking at Sparky/Zalak being a team for Mafiosi and maybe Rosa(?), but that's literally based on one page, one bad vote, and one just meh togetherness.

Regardless, we have a lead now and we should use this to the best of our advantage. I encourage everyone to look into other slots and to also go re-read some posts, especially near deadlines to see where people felt on lynches and connections to Koopa and Slick.

I also encourage everyone to take a deep breathe and re-examine the game. Everyone seems to have that "one" scum-read they are all bull-dogging on (Zalak = J; Sparky = J; J = Zalak; Rosa = ?; RR = Zalak; Orbo = ?) and we need to start looking for the other members of scum in the game. We are all *tunneling slots and I myself am guilty of that. A fresh perspective actually helps win games more than hurts.

I've been true to my word this entire game so I am going to back up my own words with my own actions and take a step back from the game and re-evaluate some slots.

*Tunneling = This is a method of basically just gunning down a slot and not letting go no matter what. This usually ends up to being detrimental to town, the downfall of a scum member, or could sometimes work out for the best. Tunneling is a method that is usually frowned upon because of it's usually derived of stubbornness and finding nearly everything about a slot scummy. This is also "Pre-confrimation bias" where your mind completely thinks you are correct. Try to stay away from tunneling and focus on multiple reads and taking a step back to breathe.

 

[#HBC | J]

@ Orboknown : Currently, you're my biggest town-read. Mainly due to same thoughts, but also I feel confident after just being on a scum-team with you to know your scum-game and I, in turn, think you should know that this is definitely not my scum-game at all. So I would like to offer my hand to you for a possible sound-board/talking session to help me root myself back into PoE and connections and to not distract myself with Zalak too much.

Talk to me about the probability of Sparky flipping scum. At the moment, I feel he has the highest prospect of flipping scum on a logical stand-point and also based on the other players. I also feel Rosa v. Zalak is a 50/50 where Zalak could be bad townie and Rosa could be good scum at this point. However, that would be flipping the script from how I've felt all game.

Then there is the ? which is Ryu. I don't get scumRyu vibes from him which would become apparent on this day-phase. I'm also giving him town-points for the Brewyu escapade yesterDay against Zalak where he seemed genuine after you poised that question to him during the tirade and he backed off. But, that means if Ryu is town then that means that both Zalak and Rosa are scum. Which is where I begin to pause.

Unless you're playing me in this entire situation, but if you are, I actually have to give it up to you for fooling me because I do not see you logistically being scum. Nothing points to that direction and you seem to be operating under a solo mind-set like myself which is what I am giving towny points to. (I also feel that way towards Ryu as well where he doesn't seem to be working with anyone)

So my over-arching question is who's the final townie to you since you have me as your strongest town-read? And who do you think would be the candidate to most likely flip scum; i.e. Who do you want lynched toDay?

 

[#HBC | J]

@Red Ryu: Hi, I want to finalize this with you and I need more than just one-liners at this point because although my gut points to you being town and I don't see scum-vibes from your slot, but ironically you're a slot that I go back and forth on. Mainly because you hold the key to solving this puzzle for me and my PoE. If I can determine whether you are scum or town, I will be able to lock this game down.

The one read from you that is peculiar is your Orboknown dislike. You also say that you think Sparky is more than likely town as well. Those are two reads that are mirrored from mine. Your insistence on Orbo is because of TSYK and you say he hasn't done much to redeem that slot. Can you be more specific here? And also more on your Sparky town-lean.

Then, talk to me in regards to Zalak and Rosa. As I said to Orbo, I am feeling 50/50 on both slots because there is evidence that gives both of these slots town points and scum points. However, they could go either way. Help me discern this from your point of view especially after what you gained from your tirade on Zalak yesterDay.

 

[#HBC | J]

I'll be getting to the other 3 slots later. Mainly because I need to bring up quotes and re-look at some evidence first before I examine the others in detail. I'll be trying to post tomorrow in the afternoon, but I just did some auditions today and I got messages from a couple directors that gave me callbacks for tomorrow so I won't be back till later-ish in the evening. However, we've got a week and I plan on doing a full re-read with my free time this weekend after I am done all my school-work.

I will say this now to Sparky/Zalak/Rosa. The IC gloves are coming off now and I will be coming at this game as if it were a normal game at this point. Which means it is going to begin to get a bit wordy in this thread from me and hopefully I can teach you guys from tough love now. I say this sincerely and with respect to ya'll as players.

I'll still be here for tips and terminology! If you don't understand something, just lemme know.

 

[RosalinaSGS]

ToDay I don't want to lynch either J or Orbo. Whilst I don't find them entirely townie, they're also our best players, and I don't want to lynch either yet. I don't particularly want to lynch RR either considering his inactivity, but if it doesn't pick up soon I'll be fine with his lynch too.
Between Spak and Zalak, I'm willing to lynch either of those.
I can't actually remember much of Spak in these entire 51 pages, which says a bit in itself. Willing to lynch him, due to apparent absence despite activity.
Not too sure about Zalak now. tbh I get the feeling I over-reacted with regards to his NK analysis, as the other stuff he's posted I'm mostly good with.
So my lynch target today is Spak.

If I had to say right now who I think the townies are, they'll be J and Zalak. Quite surprised at Zalak being on the list, but he's responded well to my rant and put forward some good points against me, so kudos for that. Also, everyone else somehow feels... absent. Orbo's been active, but ThatSmasher's play was damning imo, and Orbo hasn't made up for that yet. And RR's just been inactive...

 

[RosalinaSGS]

Pending judgement on J depending on his promised 'gloves coming off'. But pretty good content so far.

 

[Orboknown]

Quick shots before i shower because Js post needs a legit response and not quips

I'll be getting to the other 3 slots later. Mainly because I need to bring up quotes and re-look at some evidence first before I examine the others in detail. I'll be trying to post tomorrow in the afternoon, but I just did some auditions today and I got messages from a couple directors that gave me callbacks for tomorrow so I won't be back till later-ish in the evening. However, we've got a week and I plan on doing a full re-read with my free time this weekend after I am done all my school-work.

I will say this now to Sparky/Zalak/Rosa. The IC gloves are coming off now and I will be coming at this game as if it were a normal game at this point. Which means it is going to begin to get a bit wordy in this thread from me and hopefully I can teach you guys from tough love now. I say this sincerely and with respect to ya'll as players.

I'll still be here for tips and terminology! If you don't understand something, just lemme know.

word to the new guys-that means some hella long posts comin atchu lol

ToDay I don't want to lynch either J or Orbo. Whilst I don't find them entirely townie, they're also our best players, and I don't want to lynch either yet. I don't particularly want to lynch RR either considering his inactivity, but if it doesn't pick up soon I'll be fine with his lynch too.
Between Spak and Zalak, I'm willing to lynch either of those.
I can't actually remember much of Spak in these entire 51 pages, which says a bit in itself. Willing to lynch him, due to apparent absence despite activity.
Not too sure about Zalak now. tbh I get the feeling I over-reacted with regards to his NK analysis, as the other stuff he's posted I'm mostly good with.
So my lynch target today is Spak.

If I had to say right now who I think the townies are, they'll be J and Zalak. Quite surprised at Zalak being on the list, but he's responded well to my rant and put forward some good points against me, so kudos for that. Also, everyone else somehow feels... absent. Orbo's been active, but ThatSmasher's play was damning imo, and Orbo hasn't made up for that yet. And RR's just been inactive...

Solid post
But i wanna point out you shouldn't necessarily wanna keep us just because we're experienced /stronger players, if you think we might be scum question us and try to lynch is, thays gonna be the best way to get a read on us (forcing us to interact and come up with stuff on the fly)

 

[RosalinaSGS]

Quick shots before i shower because Js post needs a legit response and not quipsword to the new guys-that means some hella long posts comin atchu lol

Solid post
But i wanna point out you shouldn't necessarily wanna keep us just because we're experienced /stronger players, if you think we might be scum question us and try to lynch is, thays gonna be the best way to get a read on us (forcing us to interact and come up with stuff on the fly)

I want to keep you mainly because you may be town, and you may be scum, and atm it's very difficult to tell apart because of your experience. I'm hoping to focus on easier targets for now, and eventually gather a paper trail/ detect a contradiction/ scum slip-up or something. I will ask questions, but atm I think the best way for me to get a solid read on the ICs is just through time and ordinary content.

 

[RosalinaSGS]

Also, among my three willing-to-lynch targets, I'm guaranteed there's one scum in there, I haven't been sitting too well with Spak, and I haven't any problem with you guys so far. Except, because you're ICs, that doesn't mean you're townies either, and... yeah. I pretty much have to hope for an eventual slip, because I get this feeling one of you and J is scum (gut, I find it difficult to believe everyone else is scum. (Afterthought: Actually, I just find it difficult to think Zalak may be scum atm, but then I remember you guys are pretty high up in my townie list, higher than Zalak, but then I remember you're ICs, so my town reads shouldn't really count, so I wouldn't be that surprised... no I would. Gut, gut tells me one of you is scum), but my thoughts on who it is are flip-flopping.

TL;DR: I think one of you two might be scum... and consider my vote 'on' Spak.

 

[Orboknown]

@ Orboknown So I would like to offer my hand to you for a possible sound-board/talking session to help me root myself back into PoE and connections and to not distract myself with Zalak too much.

I'm game with this

Talk to me about the probability of Sparky flipping scum. At the moment, I feel he has the highest prospect of flipping scum on a logical stand-point and also based on the other players.

Spaks prolly 65 70 percent scum for me. He's very...floaty, i guess. Like hes kinda here but he isn't and his content doesn't scream town or scum. I just can't see him being town over ryu zalek or rosa

I also feel Rosa v. Zalak is a 50/50 where Zalak could be bad townie and Rosa could be good scum at this point. However, that would be flipping the script from how I've felt all game.

i wanna say this ks svt except ****in ruy. They're defs not same alignment by this point, as i don't feel like the argument shebang between them was contrived at all. Zaleks been getting better when hes not focusing just one alleyway of doom and .jpg fury at someone, but then he gets in those ruts where its just bad
Rosas been solid but lately its like a small roll downhill woth late yesterday and all these i wanna do this but this posts. Could be townie confusion, could be scum not sure where to push

Then there is the ? which is Ryu. I don't get scumRyu vibes from him which would become apparent on this day-phase. I'm also giving him town-points for the Brewyu escapade yesterDay against Zalak where he seemed genuine after you poised that question to him during the tirade and he backed off. But, that means if Ryu is town then that means that both Zalak and Rosa are scum. Which is where I begin to pause.

ruys posting, when hes been here, has been mostly solid. But i can't wrap my head around some of his reads and i dunno if hes playing better because he has an opposing scumteam to hunt (lkke how indy ryu is better than scumryu) or what.

Unless you're playing me in this entire situation, but if you are, I actually have to give it up to you for fooling me because I do not see you logistically being scum. Nothing points to that direction and you seem to be operating under a solo mind-set like myself which is what I am giving towny points to. (I also feel that way towards Ryu as well where he doesn't seem to be working with anyone)

i swear this isn't some FE:A level bs I'm pulling haha
The only thing imma mention towards the ryu part is that i remember him as scum veryuch so not working/looking at scumchat so he can do his own thing uninfluenced during the day

So my over-arching question is who's the final townie to you since you have me as your strongest town-read? And who do you think would be the candidate to most likely flip scum; i.e. Who do you want lynched toDay?

Goddamnit this is hard to pick right now
Gun to head, i almost wanna say zalek. I really don't think hes stupid enough to keep pulling himself into these baits with you, but this is like hes got 35.3 percent of the vote and ruy and rosa both have 32.3

 

[Orboknown]

Manually putting in quote tags on mobile is so asinine. God

 

[Orboknown]

For what its worth i haven't read back on slicks interactions yet so that **** up there could change

 

[#HBC | J]

@ Zalak : I'm just giving you some player advice, not IC advice. If you want to lynch me toDay, you will need damning evidence and repeating the same thing over and over will not work to get me lynched. I will also tell you to look at the train of thought of the thread currently where you already have 3 slots not voting for me toDay in Myself, Orbo, and Rosa. I believe Ryu has me as his strongest town read as well so unless that has switched from yesterDay then there is no way you could reach a majority vote on my slot toDay for the lynch considering the only other person willing to lynch me is Spak who is adversely the other lynch candidate being talked about for toDay.

So unless you have a new theory, I suggest looking at another slot, but I will still make good on the deal of me answering your qualms, I am just trying to show you the other side's perspective on the thread conversation. ToDay, if you are town, would be a good day to look into another slot that isn't me.

 

[#HBC | J]

Manually putting in quote tags on mobile is so asinine. God

The only thing that REALLY stuck out was Rosa's vote when going back through things. That's really making my head scratch because why would you vote Koops especially if Slick had a majority votes already and no one seemed to be voting Koops. Idk, again, it's weird and I have to see if Rosa did that AFTER the slip or not because if it was after I would say that is more damning that if it was before. However, I found something else.

At the time, Sparky had a really big scum-read on Zalak and a minor FoS on Slick, but decided to follow Zalak onto Slick with very little push. It seems very fishy to me that someone would follow that big a scum-read on a littler scum-read. Something is up regarding that and I am trying to debate if it is Scum-Buddy-esque or just general scumminess. That's how Sparky has been a lot with his scum-reads where he just follows people onto whatever seems the most popular wagon and somehow get himself onto it without actually being liable for getting blood on his hands for the push.

Sparky is an intriguing slot I'm excited to read more into because I feel like his lynch needs to happen toDay>everyone and before toMorrow happens.

 

[Orboknown]

The only thing that REALLY stuck out was Rosa's vote when going back through things. That's really making my head scratch because why would you vote Koops especially if Slick had a majority votes already and no one seemed to be voting Koops. Idk, again, it's weird and I have to see if Rosa did that AFTER the slip or not because if it was after I would say that is more damning that if it was before. However, I found something else.

At the time, Sparky had a really big scum-read on Zalak and a minor FoS on Slick, but decided to follow Zalak onto Slick with very little push. It seems very fishy to me that someone would follow that big a scum-read on a littler scum-read. Something is up regarding that and I am trying to debate if it is Scum-Buddy-esque or just general scumminess. That's how Sparky has been a lot with his scum-reads where he just follows people onto whatever seems the most popular wagon and somehow get himself onto it without actually being liable for getting blood on his hands for the push.

Sparky is an intriguing slot I'm excited to read more into because I feel like his lynch needs to happen toDay>everyone and before toMorrow happens.

Interesting
Either way, spaks prolly gon dir. I just wanna know if he did that as a bus or a "this guys my partner so i wanna get off him
Or rather
If he was getting away from zalek or onto slick (not necessarily calling zalek scum here)

 

[#HBC | J]

@ RosalinaSGS : If you find either myself or Orbo scummy, do not be intimidated by the fact that we are ICs haha. I get that it can be a bit scary to combat one of us due to our experience, but it's a game of mafia. However, I understand that you do not think of us as scum. You are just using a lot of circular logic and I see your minding ironically circling the drain regarding our slots where you keep going back and forth which is a good thing for mafia players to do is to also guess and doubt their reads. Just use a little Occam's Razor and some gut. Experience be damned, everyone trips up and everyone is lynchable.

 

[#HBC | J]

Interesting
Either way, spaks prolly gon dir. I just wanna know if he did that as a bus or a "this guys my partner so i wanna get off him
Or rather
If he was getting away from zalek or onto slick (not necessarily calling zalek scum here)

As I said, I am looking at it currently as a possible Bus; Though the situation is also there for a mafia member getting an easy lynch. Sparky as oddball because he makes sense as anything besides being town at this point. (For my number, it's 80% on him being scum)

 

[Orboknown]

Fair. I need to teread d2 n 3, d1 is a wash dueto radrat imo

 

[#HBC | J]

Tentative Vote-Count:

Sparky (3): J, Rosa, Orbo
J (1): Zalak

I know we are all being careful with our votes, but these are the thoughts based on words said in thread and also people saying "vote on" people. I would say this is pretty accurate to what is going on for toDay so far. We just need Ryu's and Sparky's input and then J is gonna go digging.

 

[#HBC | J]

D1 will only hold minor gems where D2/D3 will hold the real jewels for connections. Especially the Generic wagon and the stuff before Slick wagon. (that isn't devolved from Zalak's tirade)