Aesir
Smash Master
Lol.
THen they have no idea what they're talking about, if they haven't participated in a tourney, then they have no idea the level at which the game can be played.
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Mindgames dont exist: The Truth
- Thread starter mog87
- Start date
Red Exodus
Smash Master
With the internet around they don't need it, all you need is to be extremely social and get to know a lot of smashers, it works for me. The only things tournaments have that hardcore smashing doesn't is the atmosphere of tournaments is probably much more nerve racking and the fact that there are lots of smashers to play against.
There are technical tricks that have the potential to "Mindgames" someone. Such as dash dancing. Dash dancing is NOT, in it's self, a "mind game". What makes it a mind game is when people make a poor decision in what to do about your mindless joy-stick flipping. Another example is wave landing, wavedashing backward, combining the two some how, moonwalking, whatever. Mind games only become mind games when people react poorly to simple technical things lke what I said.
There are mindgames in Smash
a lot of mind games
What do you think seperates Ken from a Guy that knows all techincal skill with Marth?
Once you have technical skill than you put mind games in the equation
Mind games are what make a player or break a player
they are a huge part of smash.
a lot of mind games
What do you think seperates Ken from a Guy that knows all techincal skill with Marth?
Once you have technical skill than you put mind games in the equation
Mind games are what make a player or break a player
they are a huge part of smash.
SOLAR
Smash Ace
Mindgames are deceptive things done to confuse the opponent. Whenever someone expects something, and you do something else, that's a mindgame.
That link was just a example of why senior members of SWF might associate a person's knowledge of smash with that person's join date. It wasn't directed to anybody in particular.
I know this quote is sorta old, but I just saw it.
Aside from having tons more experience than any average smasher, he's also asian and from Cali. Not too many marth players share all those qualities. Except Cactuar.
Like forgetting tournament sets and 3 stockings.
Red Exodus
Smash Master
Well I finally got around to playing melee in an arcade today, I only played 3 matches [it was far too crowded to withstand the '3-man beat off' for my 30 minutes. I won 2 of the 3 matches in FFA and I managed to do my first wavedash on my first attempt [yes I know what it looks like I've watched Fox vids].
It's too hard to trick someone with mindgames in FFA's so any theories or experiments would have been void. I'm surprised I won so many times, considering it has almost been a year since my GC stopped working, if I still had it I probably would have lasted my 30 minutes.
Yeah I know it's off topic but this thread has too much flaming on it, I'm just trying to lighten the atmosphere.
P.S. Never show your true skill in a FFA at the beginning, I forgot this when I played, which resulted in a Fox pile on [dam them] in my third match.
It's too hard to trick someone with mindgames in FFA's so any theories or experiments would have been void. I'm surprised I won so many times, considering it has almost been a year since my GC stopped working, if I still had it I probably would have lasted my 30 minutes.
Yeah I know it's off topic but this thread has too much flaming on it, I'm just trying to lighten the atmosphere.
P.S. Never show your true skill in a FFA at the beginning, I forgot this when I played, which resulted in a Fox pile on [dam them] in my third match.
...I don't think the quote worked right...anyway, This post seemed kind of annoying to me as well...hmm...I don't go to tournies and stuff (reasons from post you quoted) and I still understand what effort and what these pros are giving. I don't know entirely what it feels like personally, but I see what is happening in the situation, and I EASILY play the games enough to understand what a mindgame is. From my pov. It really irks me when people act so high and mighty. I understand that I (again, the generalization stuff...*sigh*) don't nearly have as much experiece as some of you might, but I play smash and I practice like every other day, because I love it. I don't know the full extent at which the game can be played in person, again, but I see it online, I read about it, I know what it takes to get that stunningly advanced. I know I'm not that great. I still know that mindgames exist.
Pancho <BL DOGG>
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- May 13, 2006
- Messages
- 14
The following is a general statement:
The thread starter speaks the truth. Smash unfourtenately is a mainstream game that is high on execution and happens to be sponsored by MLG because it's very popular. But the reality is that it's not a fighting game, fighting devoted communities that sponsors mega events like SBO and EVO do NOT support nor sponsor this game, and any fighting game player who has spent extensive time with games like street fighter, Tekken, Marvel, Soul Calibur or even VF and have played this game as well will tell you that while an incredibly high level of technical skill is required to play, mindgames in Smash are "situational" at best, whereas the true fighter would feature "constant' mindgames. That is not to say this game does not require skill, but it's skill in execution, the type of skill it would take to master bowling, or being a master of the 3 point shot in Basketball. the game is basically 50/50's all over the place, and please don't insult anyones mentality by insinuating that that is your notion of a mindgame, because it's not. Although it wouldn't surprise me since most smashers I seem to have talked to back when I made a certain tournament had no knowledge of outside fighters. In order to get to something that even remotely approximates a rock paper scizzors yomi, you have to wade through randomness and 50/50's using consistent execution, at which point you can put yourself at a position to edgeguard which is the only aspect of this game that I find to be truly mental, and even then it's just one game of RPS happening at once...games of VF have several games of Rps going on at once, THOSE are mindgames.
Im sure someone in here would be shallow enough to suggest that I only say this because I either probably suck at it or have gotten my *** beat, that's usually the response of someone who has no clue what they are talking about, but for this once Ill bother to adress that before it's even brought up. Yes, I have gotten my *** beat and I have lost plenty of matches. I didn't give up on this game because of that, I gave up on this game because I realized, that coming from a background of true traditional fighters, that the style I brought over had no effect. Even though I could pick up any fighter and destroy a scrub just because I understand the basics, when I played Smash someone who has been playing his cousins and his brother, never having travelled once to play other people and measure up against people outside his most inner of circles, could beat me, and I usually found that the reason why is because he could do..."something". Somehow I was putting my brain on think mode and some scrubs I play can play on some kind of auto loop mode where they do sequences of attacks that work and they usually win (Okay maybe they aren't all "scrubs" but I found that they were generally far more inexperienced than I was, and if they had tried that **** in any other fighter they would have been destroyed) It's a grand artistic collage of 50/50's as far as the eye can see. Then I realized how to win, and it was making sure I L cancel every single aerial into a perfectly timed followup throw, or constantly drill shining perfectly with Fox, or perfectly teching every time, or perfectly shuffling every time. I tried, but I just didn't find the motivation to master these techniques, because when I think of a competitive game, I think of a game that first rewards me for playing smarter. Once the game does that, I feel compelled enough to master the technical aspects, so that it may enhance my game IQ and make me even more invincible. That's my idea of a well designed 'fighter". Not having to practice your *** off for 6 months before you can even begin to beat scrubs.
So basically, Smash = who is more accurate and consistent in performing high level techniques, and in the rare situation where doing these yields a true game of rock paper scizzors, as opposed to a 50/50, making sure you choose correctly and finish your opponent off for the win.
Still I might decide to come back and play this game again, for the simple reason that this style of game might be fun to at least really focus on for a while.
The thread starter speaks the truth. Smash unfourtenately is a mainstream game that is high on execution and happens to be sponsored by MLG because it's very popular. But the reality is that it's not a fighting game, fighting devoted communities that sponsors mega events like SBO and EVO do NOT support nor sponsor this game, and any fighting game player who has spent extensive time with games like street fighter, Tekken, Marvel, Soul Calibur or even VF and have played this game as well will tell you that while an incredibly high level of technical skill is required to play, mindgames in Smash are "situational" at best, whereas the true fighter would feature "constant' mindgames. That is not to say this game does not require skill, but it's skill in execution, the type of skill it would take to master bowling, or being a master of the 3 point shot in Basketball. the game is basically 50/50's all over the place, and please don't insult anyones mentality by insinuating that that is your notion of a mindgame, because it's not. Although it wouldn't surprise me since most smashers I seem to have talked to back when I made a certain tournament had no knowledge of outside fighters. In order to get to something that even remotely approximates a rock paper scizzors yomi, you have to wade through randomness and 50/50's using consistent execution, at which point you can put yourself at a position to edgeguard which is the only aspect of this game that I find to be truly mental, and even then it's just one game of RPS happening at once...games of VF have several games of Rps going on at once, THOSE are mindgames.
Im sure someone in here would be shallow enough to suggest that I only say this because I either probably suck at it or have gotten my *** beat, that's usually the response of someone who has no clue what they are talking about, but for this once Ill bother to adress that before it's even brought up. Yes, I have gotten my *** beat and I have lost plenty of matches. I didn't give up on this game because of that, I gave up on this game because I realized, that coming from a background of true traditional fighters, that the style I brought over had no effect. Even though I could pick up any fighter and destroy a scrub just because I understand the basics, when I played Smash someone who has been playing his cousins and his brother, never having travelled once to play other people and measure up against people outside his most inner of circles, could beat me, and I usually found that the reason why is because he could do..."something". Somehow I was putting my brain on think mode and some scrubs I play can play on some kind of auto loop mode where they do sequences of attacks that work and they usually win (Okay maybe they aren't all "scrubs" but I found that they were generally far more inexperienced than I was, and if they had tried that **** in any other fighter they would have been destroyed) It's a grand artistic collage of 50/50's as far as the eye can see. Then I realized how to win, and it was making sure I L cancel every single aerial into a perfectly timed followup throw, or constantly drill shining perfectly with Fox, or perfectly teching every time, or perfectly shuffling every time. I tried, but I just didn't find the motivation to master these techniques, because when I think of a competitive game, I think of a game that first rewards me for playing smarter. Once the game does that, I feel compelled enough to master the technical aspects, so that it may enhance my game IQ and make me even more invincible. That's my idea of a well designed 'fighter". Not having to practice your *** off for 6 months before you can even begin to beat scrubs.
So basically, Smash = who is more accurate and consistent in performing high level techniques, and in the rare situation where doing these yields a true game of rock paper scizzors, as opposed to a 50/50, making sure you choose correctly and finish your opponent off for the win.
Still I might decide to come back and play this game again, for the simple reason that this style of game might be fun to at least really focus on for a while.
mario-man
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2007
- Messages
- 1,840
Even though this was well thought out and put together, that doesn't make it any closer to the truth than it already is. I agree with you about 15%. For one, this is a fighting game just as much as you don't post very often. They are both the truth. I could go into the fact that you have been here for eight months with only 14 posts, and I have been here 6 days with 53 posts, but that doesn't really prove anything does it?? I disagree with almost everything you said except for the fact that this game does take a little bit of practicing to even beat an amateur. Nearly everything else you said I disagree with.
Anther
Smash Champion
I don't understand what you're saying about Rock Paper Scissors type Yomi... RPS is extremely 50/50... You're never at a benefit to choose Rock more often than Scissors... I hate RPS, it's a horrible game. And if you're talking more along the lines of
Rock is 7 points, scissors is 5, and paper is 3, (Kind of how good fighting games are laid out).. then I understand that point, but your argument about smash still sounds wrong to me.
And I realize I might end up arguing some of your points wrong because you're throwing in a couple foreign dialects to me, but, I'm gonna make sense
I dunno Pancho. What you're saying just sounds false to me. Even without discovering advanced techs and whatnot... while the game was extremely simple, the game always felt about outsmarting your opponent, waiting for a whiff and then taking advantage of their blunders, even back when roll-dodging would give you a huge advantage over aerials.
And to this day the game remains like that to me, and even moreso, as you're constantly looking at your opponent to the point that you're attempting to predict and captialize on whatever predictableness they have. Yes, once you have more advanced techs under your belt it becomes easier to roll over opponents that can't perform them, but by far the game's never been Rock Paper Scissors type luck.
In the game Starcraft it takes an immense amount of 'technical' skill before you can even begin to play the game at a competitive (where fake-out tactics and everything you like reign surpreme) level. And you have to most likely practice for months before you can own "Scrubby" tactics. Doesn't make it any less of a Real-Time Strategy game because of it though, like you're insuating with smash. Yes it makes it less appealing to get into, but it's renound for its extreme balance in high level gameplay. It's a different type of game, different genre's require different demands on building knowledge to be able to compete in them effectively.
Dunno, just seems that the better you get at smash, and as long as your opponents are smart, the more thinking you have to do. Getting beat by scrubby tactics in a game that's able to be competitive like this means that your knowledge of the game isn't developed enough. And just because you're good at traditional fighters (Which of course, have a lot in common and tradition fighter mindgames) doesn't mean your developed knowledge in "Fighting games" will carry over to something as drastically different from them.
I mean, you're saying you were beat by "Scrubby" tactics even though you learned some stuff... That means you needed to learn more about the game in order to beat said scrubby tactics.
Between 2 technically perfect players, the one that's able to use their experience in reading a person's tactics always wins, minimal luck about it.
Dunno, you're just wrong and I'm right =P
I mean, I've played traditional fighters, and I've never seen anything that makes them any more special than Smash is as a fun fighting game. You're constantly spacing yourself in them as to maximize your character's chance of being able to counter your opponent, which is simply technical ability. Then you're reading and trying to predict your opponent and then determining what type of counter tactic, whether it be a high risk attack, low risk, grab, dodge and counter to perform. I mean that's every good game at their basic level, and I don't see traditional fighters having any advantage over smash in that aspect.
Rock is 7 points, scissors is 5, and paper is 3, (Kind of how good fighting games are laid out).. then I understand that point, but your argument about smash still sounds wrong to me.
And I realize I might end up arguing some of your points wrong because you're throwing in a couple foreign dialects to me, but, I'm gonna make sense
I dunno Pancho. What you're saying just sounds false to me. Even without discovering advanced techs and whatnot... while the game was extremely simple, the game always felt about outsmarting your opponent, waiting for a whiff and then taking advantage of their blunders, even back when roll-dodging would give you a huge advantage over aerials.
And to this day the game remains like that to me, and even moreso, as you're constantly looking at your opponent to the point that you're attempting to predict and captialize on whatever predictableness they have. Yes, once you have more advanced techs under your belt it becomes easier to roll over opponents that can't perform them, but by far the game's never been Rock Paper Scissors type luck.
In the game Starcraft it takes an immense amount of 'technical' skill before you can even begin to play the game at a competitive (where fake-out tactics and everything you like reign surpreme) level. And you have to most likely practice for months before you can own "Scrubby" tactics. Doesn't make it any less of a Real-Time Strategy game because of it though, like you're insuating with smash. Yes it makes it less appealing to get into, but it's renound for its extreme balance in high level gameplay. It's a different type of game, different genre's require different demands on building knowledge to be able to compete in them effectively.
Dunno, just seems that the better you get at smash, and as long as your opponents are smart, the more thinking you have to do. Getting beat by scrubby tactics in a game that's able to be competitive like this means that your knowledge of the game isn't developed enough. And just because you're good at traditional fighters (Which of course, have a lot in common and tradition fighter mindgames) doesn't mean your developed knowledge in "Fighting games" will carry over to something as drastically different from them.
I mean, you're saying you were beat by "Scrubby" tactics even though you learned some stuff... That means you needed to learn more about the game in order to beat said scrubby tactics.
Between 2 technically perfect players, the one that's able to use their experience in reading a person's tactics always wins, minimal luck about it.
Dunno, you're just wrong and I'm right =P
I mean, I've played traditional fighters, and I've never seen anything that makes them any more special than Smash is as a fun fighting game. You're constantly spacing yourself in them as to maximize your character's chance of being able to counter your opponent, which is simply technical ability. Then you're reading and trying to predict your opponent and then determining what type of counter tactic, whether it be a high risk attack, low risk, grab, dodge and counter to perform. I mean that's every good game at their basic level, and I don't see traditional fighters having any advantage over smash in that aspect.
Aesir
Smash Master
sigh I said it already in this thread, repeating myself isn't something I like doing.
Theresa difference between experiencing something and seeing something.
so unless you experience it how do you know?
Tron V2.0
Smash Apprentice
wow, mindgames is like air in real life if you don't breathe, you'll die!!!
ºOblivionº
Smash Journeyman
I Respect this, But with your mentallity if you really decided to become devoted to this game you could really become pro. Since you are keeping the game around I suggest when ever you get bored try practing some technical stuff not all at one time. Just practice against your friends untill you mastered one tech and move on the next. That way if you decide to you want to play this game seriously you wont be behind.
Red Exodus
Smash Master
Traditional fighters never struck me the way smash did. I feel so limited in traditional fighters that it sometimes annoys me. The biggest problem I have with them is the fact that I have to memorize button combos for each AND perfectly execute the sequence in order to get those moves out.
It really irks me.
Smash is more open and has more possibilities, with is why no traditional fighter ever seems to have as much soul as smash does.
It really irks me.
Smash is more open and has more possibilities, with is why no traditional fighter ever seems to have as much soul as smash does.
Red Exodus
Smash Master
Lol I'm glad I could help.
I HAVE EXPERIENCED IT.
Just not as much as some others have. I don't have tourny experience, but I do realize what that nirvanna takes to get to. The reason I am mad is because the way you are saying things, they seem as if you're rephrasing "noobs, they don't know anything. Ur guys r so dumb, you don't get how advanced this gaem is. You should just stfu because you're talking when you're a noob". That was a little over the top, but still. I do use "technical skill". I shffl, I wd, I shl. I'm just saying I'm no bombsoldier, I'm no Ken, I'm no Chu. You're taking everything wrong and you aren't getting my point. Gragh.
Mindgames exist on any level. It really depends on your definition....for the 30th time just to stay on topic xo.
Aesir
Smash Master
How have you experienced it without tourney experience lol?
you're going off an assumption much like I do when I see someone post non-sense with a recent join date and assume they're new.
I'm not criticizing you I'm just being blunt and direct.
MaskedMarth
Smash Ace
The guessing games of edge-guarding are glaring, but they're still there even in the approach. It's just a lot more subtle. You still have to predict the opponent's actions.
cradmazy_SKAG
Smash Ace
by god is this thread still going???
+ REP to mog cuz he is amazing in every way concievable.
+ REP to mog cuz he is amazing in every way concievable.
This is the thread that doesnt end
oh yes it goes on and on my friends..
Some people starting posting not knowing what it was
But theyll continue posting in it forever
(Or creating spinoff threads)
Just because this is the thread that doesnt end
It spawns on and on my friends....
(Repeat 2x)
<Insert Random Rapper Cameo.>
oh yes it goes on and on my friends..
Some people starting posting not knowing what it was
But theyll continue posting in it forever
(Or creating spinoff threads)
Just because this is the thread that doesnt end
It spawns on and on my friends....
(Repeat 2x)
<Insert Random Rapper Cameo.>
DP's Mario
Smash Ace
To tell the truth, I myself don't know what mindgames are. Some people tell me it's the way you fight, and other people say it's a "technique". But hey, If I did know what mindgames were, I don't think my fighting style would be it.
Mindgames are one of two things. Applying tech skill in an intelligent way (which would explain why you can't have one without the other) or faking out/giving pressure to lure into a trap/etc.
Everybody uses (the real meaning of) mindgames, because if not, they wouldn't be doing anything. They would be standing there, punching wildly. And even that is a mindgame in itself...randominity. Wow. Weird word.
Of course, there are tons of spinoff meanings of mindgames n00bs will say over and over again, and the way people apply it in odd manner (dood, didju see teh mindgames Da man had in tha part!? SHIZZY!!!1!!!1!).
Ending Comment: Mindgames=playing smart. <--period
Everybody uses (the real meaning of) mindgames, because if not, they wouldn't be doing anything. They would be standing there, punching wildly. And even that is a mindgame in itself...randominity. Wow. Weird word.
Of course, there are tons of spinoff meanings of mindgames n00bs will say over and over again, and the way people apply it in odd manner (dood, didju see teh mindgames Da man had in tha part!? SHIZZY!!!1!!!1!).
Ending Comment: Mindgames=playing smart. <--period
tarheeljks
Smash Lord
the real problem w/the use of the term mindgames is that people try to apply it to 2-3 second portions of matches. if you consider mindgames to be psyching out your opponent in some form or fashion, then they can only be evaluated in the context of an entire match (and in some cases w/n the context of mutilple matches).
BigRick
Smash Master
Playing smart is not mindgames...
One funny thing I've noticed about myself is that the less mindgames I use, the more I ****. The more I get *****, the more I try to resort to ''mindgames''.
Just find the cheapest tactics available and abuse them... leave the mindgames to low tier chars that cant do ****
Legendaryhero
Smash Journeyman
im giving this thread CPR because mog is amazing... and also because mindgames don't exist people just think they do cause they still believe in it like santa and the tooth faerie.
Aesir
Smash Master
See mindgames are really magic, everyone should work on their magic.
Dylan_Tnga
Smash Master
You know nothing substantial.
A-Laon
Smash Master
I'd just like to take a moment to say that I absolutely cannot believe this thread is still alive / open / stupid. I had figured that after all this time at least one of those would have ceased to be the case.
Cort
Apple Head
I think that's what you meant to say.
Banks
Smash Hero
Cort's too good, but I think that right there is what we are all saying all the time. Or at least thats what i do.
omg why did you bump this ? Seriously, this thread is not going any where. No one is willing to accept the fact that mindgames dont exist. They keep saying the same crap over and over and over, and mog87, cort and brookman keep saying the same **** thing over and over and over. Most redundant thread of all time.
I agree with you mog87, that mindgames dont exist. However, there is no way in hell you will be able to convince very much people that mindgames dont exist, because people dont want to deny their existance. It doesn't really matter how logical your explanations are for the non-existance of mindgames. People are simply refusing to believe it.
In smash, there are several elements. There is experience, intelligence, and knowledge on how to apply tech skill. People who have 'amazing mindgames' simply have more of the latter. IMO.
I posted this a while back(and I mean a while back...) that when someone posts 'get better mindgames' wtf does that mean.
Seriously, how the hell do you get better mindgames? People say that the difference between pros and other smashers is mindgames. Well, how the **** did they get the mindgames in the first place ? Did it come to them in a dream ? Did a pro wake up from bed and yell "I have teh uber mindgrainz !!! I am a pro at smash bros now ".
The problem with the term 'mindgame', is that its actually meaning is really really vague, and as a result, it has no meaning at all any more.
Okay, some people also say that mindgames come from experience. WTf? I thought experience comes from experience. What if, mindgames are experience. Why dont we all say the term 'experience' instead of the term 'mindgame'? Pros obviously have more experience then a regular smasher, and that is one reason why they are pros not joes ( lol ) .
What about a person's intelligence. Seems that is also a mindgame. Omg that guy wavedashed away from that fsmash. He has teh uber mindgrainz ! Or maybe that guy anticipated that fsmash because his opponent spams it. Intelligence ? or Mindgames ? Who knows ? Seems like smart players have awesome mindgames, while dumb players have not so awesome mindgames. I guess you can say, mindgames are also intelligence as well.
My point is, you can play more intelligently, and you can gain more experience. But, can you gain more mindgames ? Maybe gaining more mindgames involves another mindgame ? (head explodes)
Cort
Apple Head
Much better.
Also, mindgames only exist when the people you play are inexperienced enough to fall for them to a degree that would actually sway the match. Especially at higher levels, the ends of serious tournament sets, it just comes down to the people with more experience that try the same, safe tricks that let your opponent slip up because they're not focused. So really, they don't exist. In conclusion, mindgames exist. Intangible goodness makes me question the reality in front of me. Strobe lights and blown speakers, fireworks and hurricanes. I'm not here, this isn't happening.
Sliraobe God
Smash Apprentice
Another Touchy Subject >_<
Mindgames Exist in Opinions.
Think of Smash as a game of fun, skill, instinct, and any possible strategies or tactics.
In definition, we consider mindgames a way of changing an opponent's reaction to a particular action or confusing the enemy. That's difficult to understand and use, but it may work if you believe it does
I personally believe Mindgames exist, but a determined opponent won't be phazed by your psychological games.
After all, anything else you do in Smash is considered a "mental distraction".
All I say is mindgames exist if you believe they do, and mindgames don't exist if you can't use them/don't believe in them/or your opponent is just too good .
Mindgames Exist in Opinions.
Think of Smash as a game of fun, skill, instinct, and any possible strategies or tactics.
In definition, we consider mindgames a way of changing an opponent's reaction to a particular action or confusing the enemy. That's difficult to understand and use, but it may work if you believe it does
I personally believe Mindgames exist, but a determined opponent won't be phazed by your psychological games.
After all, anything else you do in Smash is considered a "mental distraction".
All I say is mindgames exist if you believe they do, and mindgames don't exist if you can't use them/don't believe in them/or your opponent is just too good
.
Red Exodus
Smash Master
Screw mindgames, let's call them tactics instead.
/thread
/thread
Aesir
Smash Master
No its called Magic, mindgames = magic LOLZ
brwnhawaiin
Smash Cadet
yea, i always thought mindgames was a stupid word for this game. like allen iverson in basketball, when he crosses over someone, or passes the ball somwhere where it doesnt look like hes gonna pass it, the playmakers dont say "look at those mindgames". its just, good moves. the way he plays the game, the way good ppl play the game. same as smash. good ppl ,have good moves, and know when to use them.