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Milktea talks Awareness, Girl Gamers in new Blog

Pacack

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People are idiots. This shouldn't have ever become an issue in the first place.

To anyone who has been mistreated in the smash community in any way, I apologize. Smash should be a test of skills and a fun experience for everyone involved. You should never have to feel uncomfortable.
 

Bambi_

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And this is the point where I stopped taking this post seriously.
Congrats I guess? Congrats for ignoring that women are treated poorly by acting like if it's not your issue, it's a non-issue. You're really forward thinking and your edginess will one day be a boon of light to us all. You will guide the way by telling us "wait no they're not actually being hurt, it's just that all of them like to complain about things and wow do their complaints sound similar!"

But yeah, there's no such thing. They're treated great.
 

MasterOfKnees

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I never knew this was a issue i thought most females weren't into competive smash because they ain't bout dat life.
Whenever there's something of interest, I can assure you that both genders will be interested in it. I see more girls in what's usually deemed boy's territory than I used to, I feel like we're slipping away from the old times where things were cut out in black and white regarding gender interests. Of course you won't likely catch a little boy craving to get the latest Barbie toy anytime soon, but as people grow up it seems like more and more people cross into both fields. Heck, we have girls playing Call of Duty and grown-up dudes watching My Little Pony, seems to me like times are changing, and I'm all for a wider range of acceptance. Yes, a specific gender might be the dominant audience for something, but there's never going to be anything where only one gender finds interest in it.

As for the issue at hand (the rest of the post isn't targetted at you Renji, just to clarify): I don't really follow the competitive players that closely, only really the top of the top, but I have noticed the absence of female players. I didn't know it was due to them feeling alienated in the Smash community though. It's usually not a very big problem where I go, but I do know that there are dudebros around the internet who doesn't treat them with respect, and that's honestly mostly on the attacker's side than anything else. I mean, if you really generalize women like that, I'd say that you have quite some insecurities to attend to first, as that to me comes off as a message that the person has never really befriended or communicated with girls, and therefore see them as a different people and don't know how to react to them. I always prefer to see everyone as under the same flag, I don't believe that everyone are stationed under seperate flags that read male, female, white, black, american, european, etc, I'd rather believe we're all stationed under the human flag, which is why on first glance I treat everyone alike. When I get to actually know them, that's where my behaviour can change accordingly.

The blog is a good read indeed, and I'm usually not that much for all these sexism rants, despite being against it myself.
 
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Nicco

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Congrats I guess? Congrats for ignoring that women are treated poorly by acting like if it's not your issue, it's a non-issue. You're really forward thinking and your edginess will one day be a boon of light to us all. You will guide the way by telling us "wait no they're not actually being hurt, it's just that all of them like to complain about things and wow do their complaints sound similar!"

But yeah, there's no such thing. They're treated great.
Dude... Please get off your high horse. I'm not denying that some women have been uncomfortable at tournies. But it really also comes down to their own personality.

"Truly hazardous environment".... It's a smash tournament. The worst thing that can happen is that a smelly guy makes a move on her, nobody acknowledges her or whatever.

In the smash scene you get ***** alot.
In the real world you might get ***** for real.
 

Metazoa

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Dude... Please get off your high horse. I'm not denying that some women have been uncomfortable at tournies. But it really also comes down to their own personality.

"Truly hazardous environment".... It's a smash tournament. The worst thing that can happen is that a smelly guy makes a move on her, nobody acknowledges her or whatever.

In the smash scene you get ***** alot.
In the real world you might get ***** for real.
As good as the world is for allowing most of us to believe that we are basically safe no matter what happens, things have a way of happening in the most unexpected places.

Yes, some women do act in ways that encourage this behavior (which was also mentioned in the post, wouldn't you know it?). And yes, there probably will be lots of smelly guys that try to make a move. Probably a few creepy guys, too.

...Yes.
 
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I mean, clearly. I've been to about four tournaments and seen three girls between them all. They feel that they cannot go to these tournaments on account of what happens at them if they do. When someone is treated poorly they shouldn't have to make an Excel spreadsheet documenting every time they have been treated poorly before you can believe them. You should just believe them. At the tournaments that I went to which had a girl, I heard people joking about them. "Dude, I hope she doesn't suck **** as poorly as she plays" etc. People talked about them behind their backs, wondering if they were single, or if they could perchance wind up with a smasher girlfriend if they were smooth enough. And they don't seem to realize that the girls are not there to be hit on, and that their side of it matters, and that maybe they just want to play a game and not be subject to catcalls or jokes or sexism.
I am not saying it doesn't happen. I am pointing out the possibility that the scale at which inequality is "happening" is being blown out of proportion. Of these 4 tournaments how many people were there apart from the those three women you observed? How many of those people were you noticing being idiots? Say about 80 unique people in total and only 4 of the same people were being negative. If so, you cannot really say this is a community problem. In this example, it would just be the few select idiots causing problems. Even if there is a larger portion of people being demeaning in some way that's just a small population in those geological regions (I am assuming you were to tournaments around the same area). Smash is played all around the world and each local community has different people.
 

Nicco

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Also look at Leffen. If anyone has been alienated, it's him. Still, he comes back and wins beast 4.

You shouldn't give a phuck about what the community thinks about you.
If somebody's being a dikk, give em
the finger, and focus on the nice people instead of writing a blog, labeling all smash players as sexists.
 

Bambi_

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I am not saying it doesn't happen. I am pointing out the possibility that the scale at which inequality is "happening" is being blown out of proportion. Of these 4 tournaments how many people were there apart from the those three women you observed?
About 200 people between all of the tournaments, and for unique people about 120. It wasn't everyone, obviously, but it wasn't just four people. I'd guess around 1/3 of the people, but it doesn't have to be all of them. The fact that you feel the need to defend the people who were there who were neither calling out the sexism nor actively participating in it rather than about the people who suffer from it truly shows that you don't have your priorities toward helping those people, so you can stop tiptoeing around that by pretending to be neutral.

You shouldn't give a phuck about what the community thinks about you.
Are you one of those "you only choose to be hurt by people hurting you" people? I thought we were past that, damn. No, some things hurt of their own accord and telling people that they just have to deal with the disadvantage that they have dished out to them is horribly ignorant. Do you want to be in a position where you're treated like that? If yes, then I don't think you understand how bad it is. If no, then help them out of it instead of telling them to deal with it and labeling them as whiners for not enjoying the fact that they're treated worse.
 

X WaNtEd X

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I'm not really a big fan of this article. It fails to answer the essential "so what?" question properly. Yes, misogyny exists in the gaming world. And yes, if you believe any of the "theories" Milk Tea so originally debunked, you are flat out wrong. But this is really nothing new and it kinda makes me go "no ****" at just about every paragraph. If you go into google and search "feminism in gaming", you can read a bunch of articles about exactly the same issues the smash community "struggles with" from a bunch of different sources; mainly Tumblr blogs.

The lack of women at tournaments isn't really due all that much to misogyny; it has more to do with a lack of female interest. Ask you girlfriend why she doesn't want to attend the next smash fest with you and she'll likely say she isn't interested in smash. It's just that simple. Of course, there's a fair share of misogyny amongst the minority of ******* in the smash community, but that **** exists just about everywhere. It's really not a big deal. The best thing we can do to squash this absurd behavior and notions out of the minority is to simply treat gamer girls like anyone else at tournaments; no special treatment, act like it's the norm.
 

Nicco

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There will be sexists everywhere. And the harder you look for it, the more you see it.

Writing a blog about how dangerous and toxic our community is to women isn't actually gonna get more women to join. I'll be sure to warn every lady about us, so they can be safe.
 

fabulouspants

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of course theyre going to be treated strangely. most smashers who attend tournament are awkward, weird, smelly, virgin teenagers who barely know how to act around people their own sex let alone the opposite gender.

you know why girls are afraid of going to tournaments? its not cause they'll be treated bad its cause the majority smell like **** and the ratio of men:female that are actually interested in games let alone COMPETITIVE gameing is heavily skewed towards males. lol sure theres an outlier but its strictly men that enjoy nerdy stuff like sitting at home practicing tech skill and going to a VIDEOGAME tournament.
 
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About 200 people between all of the tournaments, and for unique people about 120. It wasn't everyone, obviously, but it wasn't just four people. I'd guess around 1/3 of the people, but it doesn't have to be all of them. The fact that you feel the need to defend the people who were there who were neither calling out the sexism nor actively participating in it rather than about the people who suffer from it truly shows that you don't have your priorities toward helping those people, so you can stop tiptoeing around that by pretending to be neutral.
I think I finally got my original point across.

Whether or not one group or another deserves priority or not is not what I was trying to convey. Milktea presented one perspective and I am trying to show the other side that was not represented.
 

Archangel

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Uhh....I think as soon as you say "Female gamer" it kinda defeats the purpose to me. Why are you still calling people female gamers? Nobody calls me a black gamer? I don't call people white gamers, asian gamers, hispanic gamers, short gamers, tall gamers....etc.

Now, perhaps people are expecting too much or too little out of females because of the past stereotypes and stigmas. A Female player hasn't done extremely well in a big tournament just yet but that doesn't mean it can't and won't be done. Most games(especially games involving violence are geared towards men. The ratio of female to male characters in fighting games for the past few years has been heavily skewed. Even the females who are in games are typically geared at the male audiences.

basically, the foundation is flawed and until that is fixed there will always be problems.
 

Egadd

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I don't see how this is a unique problem to girls. For reference, I am a straight, white, middle-class teenager whose only odd characteristics are being a ginger and having long hair (I at least did for many years). This did not stop me from getting made fun of. People talked about me behind my back. I was made fun of for my hobbies. At one point, a girl made fun of me for playing Mario Kart, because apparently I'm not a true gamer. The reason I joined the Smash community in the first place is because many of my friends played, and I felt safer to be myself. When I ran a small tournament at my high school's freshman lock-in, we had 6 different girls walk in and stay. Granted, most of us had been familiar with these people for a few months, but we didn't all know them. They just played, and the rest of us played. Every single person who made it to semi-finals was a guy, but it didn't matter. The girls there played every time and we didn't give them crap for it.

I'm not going to try to make a sweeping point in order to avoid ruffling feathers, but think about both guys and girls outside of narrow stereotypes.
 

Bambi_

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It is a post discussing the issues that female gamers face that male gamers don't, so it's about female gamers. Trying to erase the female is like saying "if you ignore the issues and if we all treat people as people before anything else, the issues go away!" It's a nice thought, sure, but it's not how things work out. Taking the route of neutrality by neither actively oppressing nor calling out the oppressors perpetuates the **** that goes on.

In addition, they identify with it. They get treated poorly for being female, and they shouldn't be told to "shed their feminineness" to fit into the environment of competitive gaming. Rather the competitive gaming scene should stop treating them poorly.

Basically it's erasure of both the issues that they face and who they are.
 
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There will be sexists everywhere. And the harder you look for it, the more you see it.

Writing a blog about how dangerous and toxic our community is to women isn't actually gonna get more women to join. I'll be sure to warn every lady about us, so they can be safe.
I do not believe this was the intent of the article. Awareness was the main focus. Look back at more heavily institutionalized sexism in past (US if you will) where women were denied many rights compared to now. How else are views of people challenged and changed? How do you change long standing ideals and sterotypes? One of the effective methods is probably awareness in articles like Milktea's.

Bigotry and abuse do not deserve an advocate.
Without much more exact explanation about this statement I'll have to do a lot of reading between the lines, so I might miss your point.

Anyway, suppose there are only three types of people in a community. Less than one percent are the abused and those that have little say. 33% are intolerant of the 1%. The remaining are helpful to the 1% or neutral. You just do not know how many of the 64% are helpful to the 1% or not. Now, what I dislike is when the 1% lump together the 64% with the 33%. I think everyone deserves support. The question is how much.
 
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KayB

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Why are people acting as if this article says discrimination only happens against females? The article doesn't mention that at all. Are we really a community that can only support one group at a time? If this isn't your problem, so be it. Leave. This has nothing to do with you. No one's forcing you to read these. And if you're complaining about the reason why you see these articles so much, wake up and realize the reason is because it's still happening. Telling them you don't give a **** doesn't help.

I don't see how this is a unique problem to girls. For reference, I am a straight, white, middle-class teenager whose only odd characteristics are being a ginger and having long hair (I at least did for many years). This did not stop me from getting made fun of. .
You're missing the point. If we were able to stop every middle-class ginger teenager from being made fun of, we would. But that area is way too big to even realistically tackle (at the moment anyway). Discrimination against the other sex is already something that's being frowned upon. This is supposed to be the step before solving issues like yours. If we can't even stop discriminating against females, what makes you think we can stop discriminating your "group?" I'm not saying your selfish because you shouldn't be made fun of. But that doesn't automatically make it acceptable for girls to be discriminated too.

The lack of women at tournaments isn't really due all that much to misogyny; it has more to do with a lack of female interest. Ask you girlfriend why she doesn't want to attend the next smash fest with you and she'll likely say she isn't interested in smash. It's just that simple.
Missing the point. This isn't tackling the subject as to why women don't go to tournaments. This is touching the subject as to why women who go to tournaments don't want to come back. We're talking about girls who are already interested in Smash, not girls who aren't. You're bringing in a completely irrelevant topic here.

X WaNtEd X said:
Of course, there's a fair share of misogyny amongst the minority of ******* in the smash community, but that **** exists just about everywhere.
I hope you seriously aren't insinuating that these type of articles should be stopped or treating girls like normal people. Would these articles stop discrimination? Realistically, a single article wouldn't stop it all. Does that mean they should be stopped from being posted altogether? Hell no, all you're doing is suppressing an opinion simply because you don't care enough to support it.

X WaNtEd X"It's really not a big deal.[/quote] If you're being discriminated against and you say this said:
The best thing we can do to squash this absurd behavior and notions out of the minority is to simply treat gamer girls like anyone else at tournaments; no special treatment, act like it's the norm.
You're completely missing the point. The girls AREN'T ASKING FOR SPECIAL TREATMENT. They wanted to be treated like the norm. All you're doing is repeating their words. It's ironic that you're asking these girls to stop asking for special treatment and then repeat their solution.

But it really also comes down to their own personality.
But not the personalities of those who point fingers and bully. No of course not, it has nothing to do with them. Does it come down to their personality sometimes? Yes, sometimes it does, and you did a good job for mentioning it. But if you honestly believe that girls all around can't handle being made fun of because it's inherently in their "personality," then you need to get off you're high horse. He's not white knighting because he isn't randomly defending girls. He's attacking people because some of you are bringing terrible arguments. He could hate girls for he cares and still attack you because you're arguments don't logically make sense.

Nicco said:
It's a smash tournament.
The worst thing that can happen is that a smelly guy makes a move on her, nobody acknowledges her or whatever.
No one likes being made fun of or treated like a nobody. I could go around and ask everyone to stop acknowledging you as a player. You sure as hell wouldn't like it. You don't mitigate a problem simply by naming a situation that's worse than it.
 
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bbbooster

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whats a white knight
is it a decent human being
im using my powers of deduction here
 

Mari

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Ya know, I really don't care about these kinds of issues. I just like playing video games and beating the shiznit out of Brawl noobs online, LOL. XD

Eh, what do I know. I'm just a girl who wants to work with games one day. No biggie. :D
 

The Slayer

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whats a white knight
White Knight
Pretty much just means the other person doesn't have a good argument to the other person defending someone and quickly retorts the idea that said person is defending said defense for romantic services. Also, I'm not liking the idea of this topic based on a oppression of genders in the community. Just bad enough we had some SJW talking about Samus taking a hit from Little Mac for "no reason."

I mean obviously that specific example is silly. It's a fighting game, they're gonna fight. But I hate the "those dirty SJWs!" stigma. Like oh no, someone is standing up for someone who is treated badly by an oppressive majority. Oh no, they're angry and passionate about that. Like there are literally neo-nazis and racists and you name its and people want to talk about how terrible the social justice warriors are. Darn them and their inclusive ways!

Avoiding talking about the fact that a group is treated poorly in a community due to the fear that someone might agree and be upset about being treated poorly and be passionately angry about their poor treatment seems almost dystopian. Like we've kicked them around for so long that if we finally let them voice their opinions they might be upset! So we'll just keep kicking them instead.
Oh, well here's my example right here when it comes to white knighting.
 
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Bambi_

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Also, I'm not liking the idea of this topic based on a oppression of genders in the community. Just bad enough we had some SJW talking about Samus taking a hit from Little Mac for "no reason."
I mean obviously that specific example is silly. It's a fighting game, they're gonna fight. But I hate the "those dirty SJWs!" stigma. Like oh no, someone is standing up for someone who is treated badly by an oppressive majority. Oh no, they're angry and passionate about that. Like there are literally neo-nazis and racists and you name its and people want to talk about how terrible the social justice warriors are. Darn them and their inclusive ways!

Avoiding talking about the fact that a group is treated poorly in a community due to the fear that someone might agree and be upset about being treated poorly and be passionately angry about their poor treatment seems almost dystopian. Like we've kicked them around for so long that if we finally let them voice their opinions they might be upset! So we'll just keep kicking them instead.
 

Shorts

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Blegh.

This is such a tired subject. It brings out the worst on both sides.
 
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Jaedrik

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brb unfollowing this 'smashboards' user

No, seriously, Warchamp, what are you doing, Warchamp, pls, stahp.

As has been said previously, this is a non-issue, the real, far more profound, and much broader, issue is that people (all people, get those irrelevant 'differences' out of here) are not treating others as they ought, in apparent disregard to the dignity inherent to them as human, that is, rational, beings.
 

bbbooster

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i would just like to point out that i had not been to tournaments for years because it was completely uninteresting. i made some good friends sure, but for the larger part soooo many people were afraid to just talk to me. i would see dudes pal around and have a great time but when it came time for them to play me, they'd have stone cold faces, and it'd be just nothing but the game. im sorry but i didnt come to a tournament to *gasp!* JUST play smash. the direct mistreatment to girls may be uncommon in PERSON (don't even get me started on the internet, please), but it's also kind of awful to feel completely ostracized in an event that's supposed to be fun and an opportunity to make friends.

i've been to a couple tournaments recently, and i have to say, things are looking a lot better than before. people have been way friendly and cool and we all just had a good time. i didnt fkn feel like an outsider for the first time its like WHOA did i just step into an alternate dimension???

and then someone says "i ***** him so hard" and cringe
 

κomıc

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It's a really nice ramble and a fair one I think.

But one thing that hits home with me is that whole respect part.

"The idea that skill level at Smash Bros. is the best way to measure someone’s worth to our community is a dangerous belief, not only to female gamers, but male ones as well."

T
This is a fundamental issue within the Smash Bros community and from personal experience as someone who has joined and been part of the Florida Smash Scene for nearly a year now. Although I've played Smash Bros. since 1999 and played somewhat competitively starting with Melee (regardless of naysayers, I choose to play the way I do), I get treated like so lowly third class citizen even though I've proven myself to be a really good player. At the end of the day, I don't need anyone to tell me if I'm good at a game or not. And frankly, Smash Bros is a fan service first and a competitive game last in my eyes. I don't appreciate how a bunch of neanderthals think it's OK to treat someone in my position with disrespect and place me below them, then they want to get upset if I speak out and stand up for myself. It's a video game. And last I check, you don't determine someone's worth with a luxury such as Smash Bros.

Lots of top players act like celebrities and think their **** don't stink. If you have a bad attitude, then I see no problem in anyone "new" calling you out and addressing it. No need to get upset. Spend less time getting better at the game and building a likable impression on newcomers. Of course, personally, I cut people off and shut them out (and ultimately, they won't ever get my respect back if they're being rude and out of pocket for no reason other than to make themselves feel better or because I'm "new").

Funny story: I brought my Wii to a tournament and this really good player was removing my SD card from the console. Because I'm dubious and I don't know the bloke, I politely told him to be careful and not mix up my SD card. I mean, I think I have the right to. No, I do.

And his reaction was to snap at me. For what reason? All I asked was for that person to be careful. At the end of the day, he may be "well-known", but I don't know him. I don't know if he's some thief or reckless. I don't know the person that way to allow or give him the OK to be touching my property the way he did. I brought the console there for people to use, yes. But not to hot swap SD cards and remove things out of it. I would think people, especially an adult like that individual would simply abide by my very simple request and not catch a case. There was absolutely no reason for this person to snap at me the way they did, other than the fact that I'm "new". I would have been wrong if I snatched and dragged him but of course, it isn't worth it nor is it necessary. He doesn't know me, and I could have thrown hands in retaliation because of the way he spoke to me. He's really lucky I'm not the type of guy. Because surely, someone whose fuse catches on fire would done something to him- regardless of repercussions.

Anyhow, more power to Milktea for speaking her mind. Although some things seem dodgy and generalized, that part about earning respect over some video game is spot on.
 

Jam Stunna

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This thread is replete with patriarchal attitudes, both subtle and blatant. There are posters here who outright deny Lilian's experience; there are posters who undermine her arguments by questioning the validity of her claims; there are posters here who appropriate Lilian's desire for a more inclusive community to gratify their own sexual fantasies. Whether antagonistic or ostensibly helpful, most of the posts in this thread reaffirm male supremacy by either dismissing Lilian or agreeing to allow her into the boy's club, but only on the boy's terms. After reading a few of the responses to Milktea's post, I was reminded of the following essay (which I've excerpted; the full essay can be read here):

Being “equal” to men, by the current definition of what men are supposed and expected to embody is not about liberation, its about individualization of acts, the deliberate betrayal of the very core of feminist politics, the abandonment of a communal confrontation of patriarchy, but rather a negotiation of it that allows some of us the ability of assimilation. Instead of saying “we desire to be like men” and “this is about equality” ask yourself “with the destruction of patriarchy, what are men? How will they embody such a role if there is none ascribed to them? And how can we be equal to them if they have no cohesive definition?”

Our community (that is, the tournament community specifically), like many communities both inside and outside of gaming, is a microcosm of our society, distilled into a purer form by barriers. In our case, the barrier is technical competitive play. Whereas our larger culture is negotiated and transformed simply by people who dare to be different getting out of bed in the morning, our community's culture is guarded by entrance fees, l-canceling and glide-tossing. These hurdles have to be crossed before you can even enter the competitive community, and have the effect of protecting and reinforcing some of the most misogynistic and retrograde attitudes imaginable. This is a community which actually had a debate about whether it was appropriate to refer to a devastating loss as "****;" this is a community where the term "tourneyf*g" is still bantered around.

With her writing, Lilian has taken the first steps in not simply asking for equality, but in challenging the patriarchal, hyper-masculine structure of the Smash community. These structures simultaneously have demeaned her as a woman and fetishized her as an Asian Gamer Dream Girl. Her presence cannot be taken seriously as a competitor, but only as a sex fantasy come to life for men who feel completely at ease in their privilege. The openly hostile and misogynistic people in our community have done us a favor by revealing themselves. There's nothing to say to them; we must actively oppose and marginalize them in the way that they seek to marginalize others. Those who wish to extend "equality," though, have to realize that sentiment, while well-meaning, does not deconstruct privilege, but reaffirms it by turning a woman into "one of the guys": that is, maintaining the structures and attitudes of aggressive patriarchy, but letting a few select women in on the party.

Lilian's essay is not to be taken as a teachable moment where we take a look at ourselves and decide to let more women through the gates of patriarchy. It is an eloquent and damning indictment of what our community's patriarchy does PERIOD- it devalues women, drives them out of the community and prevents them from feeling secure in our presence. That is OUR problem, not theirs. The question isn't what Lilian and other women have to do in order to get along with us, or what we should do to make them feel better. No, the question is, how do we reconfigure this whole thing to not elevate women into a structure that oppressed them, but tear down the structure, our structure which benefits us, so that we stand with them?
 

X WaNtEd X

Smash Lord
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Mar 24, 2009
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Lowell, MA
You're missing my point. I acknowledged misogyny is an issue that exists in smash, gaming and essentially everywhere in life. This article just failed to put that into a new context or present any information that wasn't currently available to the masses.

Ironically, your parody of my post objectifies women as a collective with exactly the same sensibilities, emotions, etc. when you say, (or say for me) "I [You] as a guy can tell you how girls feel." Rather, it's important to truly understand that women aren't some abstract entity that we should be defending; they are individuals, people each unique. Dismissing misogyny as something of a joke actually helps weaken it. The more effort you put into defending against it publicly, the stronger its power becomes. It's kinda the sample principle you'll hear from people defending use of the n word, except instead of "using misogyny" we are simply dismissing it as laughable.

I hope this makes sense and if it doesn't, you're mature enough to engage me in a calm discussion rather than go "OOOOOOOHHHHH SHIIIIITTTT THIS GUY ISN'T WITH US! HE HATES WOMEN!!eleven!!!"

Good day sir.

Missing the point. This isn't tackling the subject as to why women don't go to tournaments. This is touching the subject as to why women who go to tournaments don't want to come back. We're talking about girls who are already interested in Smash, not girls who aren't. You're bringing in a completely irrelevant topic here.
I think you're making up what the article is about to suit your argument. No where in the text does it say it's explicitly about women who have been to tournaments and don't want to come back. Matter fact, if even asks "where are all the women?"

Albeit, it doesn't explicitly state this is due to misogyny, but it implies that it's the bigger of the many factors; which is absurd because as I say, it's mainly a lack of interest. But for you eager mcbeavers with poor reading comprehension skills (not necessarily you qp) that are looking to pounce on this post right now with some presumptuous pseudo-intellectual response need I remind you that I never stated misogyny is not a factor or a problem in the community.

I hope you seriously aren't insinuating that these type of articles should be stopped or treating girls like normal people. Would these articles stop discrimination? Realistically, a single article wouldn't stop it all. Does that mean they should be stopped from being posted altogether? Hell no, all you're doing is suppressing an opinion simply because you don't care enough to support it.
sheeit man now you're just fishing for something wrong. no i'm not implying that lol

You're completely missing the point. The girls AREN'T ASKING FOR SPECIAL TREATMENT. They wanted to be treated like the norm. All you're doing is repeating their words. It's ironic that you're asking these girls to stop asking for special treatment and then repeat their solution.
Uhhh I'm not sure how to respond to this because I'm like 100% with you on this. I don't even know how your deriving that I'm asking girls to stop asking for special treatment. This is straight up ridiculous man. Like my entire ****ing point was that we shouldn't be giving girls special treatment. Apparently that means I'm asking girls to stop asking for special treatment.
 
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X WaNtEd X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
1,647
Location
Lowell, MA
Essentially my stance on this is a lot more complex that the two extreme sides that seem to be itt.

a. Misogyny is a big problem in the smash community and I believe it should be combatted by raising awareness; more specifically by pouncing on on people in comment threads.

b. Misogyny is not a problem at all in the smash scene. I have never seen or heard it so it doesn't exist. I never treat girls bad and am always super nice. *tips fedora*
 

Jaedrik

Man-at-Arms-at-Keyboard
Joined
Feb 18, 2009
Messages
5,054
Our community (that is, the tournament community specifically), like many communities both inside and outside of gaming, is a microcosm of our society, distilled into a purer form by barriers. In our case, the barrier is technical competitive play. Whereas our larger culture is negotiated and transformed simply by people who dare to be different getting out of bed in the morning, our community's culture is guarded by entrance fees, l-canceling and glide-tossing. These hurdles have to be crossed before you can even enter the competitive community, and have the effect of protecting and reinforcing some of the most misogynistic and retrograde attitudes imaginable. This is a community which actually had a debate about whether it was appropriate to refer to a devastating loss as "****;" this is a community where the term "tourneyf*g" is still bantered around.
Forgive me, I fail to see how technical barriers mean that progressively minded people can't get in, they're not any different from us in terms of technical skill, are they? Or do you simply mean that an insufficient number of progressively minded people have bridged the gap to form a critical mass to fight back against the so-called 'masculine' sentiments and standards of the tournament community?
 

Bambi_

King of the Forest
Joined
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185
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Pittsburgh, PA
What the **** are you trying to say. Those are literally opposite views and then you ended it with a fedora tip.
 

Jaedrik

Man-at-Arms-at-Keyboard
Joined
Feb 18, 2009
Messages
5,054
b. Misogyny is not a problem at all in the smash scene. I have never seen or heard it so it doesn't exist. I never treat girls bad and am always super nice. *tips fedora*
I agree completely, sir.
In fact, I would even go so far as to say that bullying and jerkfacery is not a problem, as I am always nice to everyone and never bully or be a jerk to anyone. *tips trilby*
What the **** are you trying to say. Those are literally opposite views and then you ended it with a fedora tip.
Uh, he was pointing out the two opposing viewpoints, not particularly taking a stance himself. The 'fedora' (which quite a few people on the internet think is a trilby, which it's not) was an attempt at humor. I chuckled, so I'd say it was a success.
 
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Jam Stunna

Writer of Fortune
BRoomer
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May 6, 2006
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Hartford, CT
3DS FC
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Forgive me, I fail to see how technical barriers mean that progressively minded people can't get in, they're not any different from us in terms of technical skill, are they? Or do you simply mean that an insufficient number of progressively minded people have bridged the gap to form a critical mass to fight back against the so-called 'masculine' sentiments and standards of the tournament community?
I mean that technical barriers limit entrance into the community, and that smaller communities tend to be more homogenized in thought and deed. Progressively minded people do get into Smash, but by nature of the fact that not many people get into Smash, not as many progressive people get into it as we would like.
 

X WaNtEd X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
1,647
Location
Lowell, MA
What the **** are you trying to say. Those are literally opposite views and then you ended it with a fedora tip.
I just typed out "get bent nerd" but realized you might misinterpret the sarcasm so I'll refrain. I see you chose to not even respond to my rebuttal and just prayed upon my clearly weaker post in the hopes your simplification and almost intentional misunderstanding would somehow discredit my argument. Unfortunately for you I take notice. Your move bruh.
 

X WaNtEd X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
1,647
Location
Lowell, MA
I agree completely, sir.
In fact, I would even go so far as to say that bullying and jerkfacery is not a problem, as I am always nice to everyone and never bully or be a jerk to anyone. *tips trilby*
Aww man dude fedoras are better. I don't know if you can come to my birthday party at Chuck-E-Cheese anymore. Everyone in the class was coming, except for you now. It's going to be epic and you're going to miss out.
 
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Jaedrik

Man-at-Arms-at-Keyboard
Joined
Feb 18, 2009
Messages
5,054
Well, I find it incredibly curious, in my own experience. I've. . . yet to be personally accused of being misogynistic, which I find strange, because I am a Catholic of anarcho-capitalist bent. Perhaps I just don't remember it.
I'm almost afraid to espouse my belief that man and woman express fundamentally different universal attributes for fear of tempting others to hatred of me, but I know for a fact that men and women have some key things in common, and that should be the baseline for all treatment of the two sexes.
The most fundamental truth of humanity is that we are rational, causal, with intellect, and as such we are agents of morality, we therefore have duties and obligations. I firmly believe, and must insist on this axiomatic truth, that the dignity inherent to each and every human as possessing an intellect and soul, demands utmost respect, and indeed utmost love, being complete, whole, and unconditional.
I have scarcely developed or sought to think of anything outside of that so far, due my lack of fervency, but if I insist on these principles then I would like to, in my pride as ignorance perhaps, draw the conclusion that much of the modern argumentation for how to treat individuals who are universally distinct from another group of individuals is not profound enough, not general enough, not universal, lacking in openly stating the assumed grounds of the fundamental nature--or lack thereof--of humanity and moral obligation.
Aww man dude fedoras are better. I don't know if you can come to my birthday party at Chuck-E-Cheese anymore. Everyone in the class was coming, except for you now. It's going to be epic and you're going to miss out.
Yo, I saw this black dude at lunch with a pinstripe suit jacket and trilby to match the other day, ***** was lookin' mad swag. But I agree, fedoras are better.
I should go to bed. Okay goodnight.
 
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bbbooster

RAINBOW FLOWER MEGA CANNON
Joined
Mar 31, 2006
Messages
108
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LA
i should also point out that i had made an effort to stay pretty hidden, lest i get "too much" attention. and no i'm not being arrogant (ok maybe a lil) but hearing about other girls and how many unwanted advances they would get and just all the harrassment i would witness online was horrifying to me. you know, just that little detail keeping me from wanting to go to tournaments or coming here regularly. oh yeah btw im a girl if u couldnt gather
 
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