Mii Fighter: Competitive Scene Implications

[Saikyoshi]

@ Wii U tournaments and customs: Who here thinks that QR codes/Amiibo exporting/something won't be an option, really?

 

[TimeSmash]

Do you guys think I should start a thread specifically focusing on how to handle custom Mii movesets if they become legal? I know that that topic and the one we're discussing seem similar, but mine would focus on an actual tentative system conversation to be put in place, not the actual legality of movesets.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Do you guys think I should start a thread specifically focusing on how to handle custom Mii movesets if they become legal? I know that that topic and the one we're discussing seem similar, but mine would focus on an actual tentative system conversation to be put in place, not the actual legality of movesets.

You know, that sounds like a very good idea. Preemptively having a system in place might have an impact when judgement day comes to the issue.

 

[TimeSmash]

Just made the thread. Sorry for getting off-topic!

 

[Erimir]

I'd say that any customization beyond default configs should be instabanned. Considering Miis are custom per essence, I'd drop the hammer of banishment on their ridiculous faces on the day the game comes out.

They have a default set of moves and there are default settings for Mii size, so why would you ban them?

Palutena obviously has a greater emphasis on the custom moves. But she's still going to be legal even if custom move sets are not because there's still a default.

mess up MU learning and create a horribly complex and unintelligible counterpicking system.

But unlike items, that doesn't make the game random.

It makes the game different. It will favor players with different skills. That doesn't make it bad.

If there's broken stuff, that will be discovered. Maybe something will be so overpowered that custom move sets are banned. Of course, it's also possible that a default move set could be just as overpowered.

But whining that you can't learn match ups the same way doesn't mean that anything is wrong or that it's a bad meta game or the game is not good for competitive play. It means you're just upset that you'll have to prepare differently. It's not like your opponent won't be in the same boat.

 

[Saikyoshi]

I'd like to point to Pokémon again, and the many, many viable sets for the top mons. They're fixed throughout the match, the opponent doesn't know what moves the opponent has, and yet they seem to be doing fine.

 

[Deleted member]

People mentioning "a huge amount of Miis." How many people are actually interested in using this character competitively? Unless they are top tier or something.

I don't think it's right to ban day one, I think there needs to be a few slightly large tourneys that have a few policies in practice to allow this character to work first. If said tourneys/sets involving Miis go extremely poorly or slowly due to the Miis, than sure, ban them. You have evidence that the character does not work in a tournament setting. If they go well, adopt the policies that work into the official ruleset, and leave the Miis unbanned. Banning them day one would insure that there will likely never be a system in place that could allow for the character to work. We don't know how this character functions, and banning them right now just seems ridiculous.

plus, banning Miis means no Nicolas Cage vs. Bill Cosby hype matches

 

[Saikyoshi]

People mentioning "a huge amount of Miis." How many people are actually interested in using this character competitively? Unless they are top tier or something.

If they're allowed unrestricted, Gunner;Inkling and Brawler;PaRappa will definitely be among my mains.

 

[wafflini]

I feel like most peoplr saying that they should be banned are simply worried about the game being different from what they remember. That is not a viable reason to ban something so large. Also, as was stated above, who knows if the miis will actually be good enough to see a lot of tournament play. The most they will see would most likely be during the early days of the game when teirs are still sketchy.

The only real reason I can see them being banned is time constraints but I feel like 3ds's could negate that.

 

[SonicMario]

The only real reason I can see them being banned is time constraints but I feel like 3ds's could negate that.

Hm, this makes me wonder about something. Could one reason the 3DS is releasing first is so that there would have been enough time for people to make their favorite customizable fighters and have the chance to use them immediately when they pick up the Wii U version? This working for all kinda of smashers both who play the game competitively or not.

I suppose the problem may be if there's still unlockable characters on both. Where if you have a Customizable fighter on the 3DS version that was an unlockable and you have to unlock them on the Wii U Version first. Though perhaps you unlock all fighters on the Wii U version if you transfer data from the 3DS when you've unlocked them all there as a reward for buying both versions.

 

[Lukingordex]

They have a default set of moves and there are default settings for Mii size, so why would you ban them?

Palutena obviously has a greater emphasis on the custom moves. But she's still going to be legal even if custom move sets are not because there's still a default.
But unlike items, that doesn't make the game random.

It makes the game different. It will favor players with different skills. That doesn't make it bad.

Like I said before, if there's a default moveset for a character them there's no problem in allowing them.

And honestly, that argument accusing us of being afraid about a different game is annoying me, stop it, It's not true. We aren't afraid of a different game, we're afraid that custom movesets may end up killing the competitive scene for obvious reasons (don't make me explain them please).

 

[Saikyoshi]

Like I said before, if there's a default moveset for a character them there's no problem in allowing them.

And honestly, that argument accusing us of being afraid about a different game is annoying me, stop it, It's not true. We aren't afraid of a different game, we're afraid that custom movesets may end up killing the competitive scene for obvious reasons (don't make me explain them please).

Do explain, because I'm not seeing it.

And don't you dare use the "boo hoo we can't learn all those matchups" excuse. Because that's just being lazy.

 

[Silvalfo]

About the parallelism mentioned with competitive Pokémon:

If the laws of Competitive Pokémon (monthly suspect tests, banned tactics, etc) were applied to Smash Bros., it'd be an unmeasurable mess. Kangaskhan was banned because a sigle "customization" of its moveset (namely Parental Bond) made it nearly impossible to stop, let alone reduce the havoc it could wreak. This also happened to 5th gen Blaziken. And many Pokémon are target of complaints due to their great versatility.
If those laws weren't applied and we still let customizations in, then it'd be very similar to Pokémon Ubers metagame, which hasn't been balanced in any generation to begin with.

I am definitely not simply throwing in a "there are too many different possibilities! i'll get salty and instaban stuff because I'll never be able to adapt!" excuse. I'm talking about an actual menace of overcentralizing, complex modifications. Stuff that should be tested every now and then when someone complains, bringing, like I mentioned, Smash metagame closer to that of Pokémon, which I consider rather messy.

 

[Saikyoshi]

You forget that Mega Kangaskhan and Blaziken were banned for the one thing they couldn't customize; their ability.

Any move with Parental Bond was rendered unstoppable. And without Speed Boost, Blaziken is low-tier garbage - it's a choice between S tier and F tier for him.

 

[Silvalfo]

So your choice would be to ban overpowered ocurrences of customized features? That's what I meant when I said that Smash metagame shouldn't be nearly similar to Pokémon's.

Also, you can run Kangaskhan without a Kangaskhanite or Blaziken with Blaze, and those are customizations. I'm sorry if I didn't understand your point.

 

[Saikyoshi]

So your choice would be to ban overpowered ocurrences of customized features? That's what I meant when I said that Smash metagame shouldn't be nearly similar to Pokémon's.

Also, you can run Kangaskhan without a Kangaskhanite or Blaziken with Blaze, and those are customizations. I'm sorry if I didn't understand your point.

Mega Kangaskhan is functionally a separate species than Kangaskhan. You can't run her without Kangaskhanite.

I see your point with Blaziken, though. But that won't happen. You know why? Because we didn't ban Wobbling. We didn't ban Reflector canceling. We didn't ban Mach Tornado. We don't ban individual overpowered moves.

 

[Silvalfo]

Mega Kangaskhan is functionally a separate species than Kangaskhan. You can't run her without Kangaskhanite.

I see your point with Blaziken, though. But that won't happen. You know why? Because we didn't ban Wobbling. We didn't ban Reflector canceling. We didn't ban Mach Tornado. We don't ban individual overpowered moves.

Meta Knight, Fox and Ice Climbers are similar to Mega Kangaskhan: they cannot be separated from their moves.
If we had the option of lessening Mach Tornado's priority or Ice Climbers' grab, we'd probably do that. That's what the multitude of Miis and custom specials could cause: minor bans and hundreds of kilograms of salt from everywhere.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Meta Knight, Fox and Ice Climbers are similar to Mega Kangaskhan: they cannot be separated from their moves.
If we had the option of lessening Mach Tornado's priority or Ice Climbers' grab, we'd probably do that. That's what the multitude of Miis and custom specials could cause: minor bans and hundreds of kilograms of salt from everywhere.

Or we just do the same thing we've done for thirteen years plus and allow them, working strategies around them.

 

[Second Power]

About the parallelism mentioned with competitive Pokémon:

If the laws of Competitive Pokémon (monthly suspect tests, banned tactics, etc) were applied to Smash Bros., it'd be an unmeasurable mess. Kangaskhan was banned because a sigle "customization" of its moveset (namely Parental Bond) made it nearly impossible to stop, let alone reduce the havoc it could wreak. This also happened to 5th gen Blaziken. And many Pokémon are target of complaints due to their great versatility.
If those laws weren't applied and we still let customizations in, then it'd be very similar to Pokémon Ubers metagame, which hasn't been balanced in any generation to begin with.

I am definitely not simply throwing in a "there are too many different possibilities! i'll get salty and instaban stuff because I'll never be able to adapt!" excuse. I'm talking about an actual menace of overcentralizing, complex modifications. Stuff that should be tested every now and then when someone complains, bringing, like I mentioned, Smash metagame closer to that of Pokémon, which I consider rather messy.

Don't compare Smash to Pokemon, they're two different games. Pokemon is very limited with its options in match, Smash is the opposite. It's called a sandbox fighting game for a reason. Even if there are OP moves (like we've had since Melee), pretty much everything can be dealt with if you play smart. That's why we (as a community) are so hesitant to ban anything. In Pokemon, losing right from team preview is a concern (and happened all the time in Gen 5), and counterplay is much much more difficult. Smash (and fighting games) are so much different. Pretty much the only thing that gets banned are stages which may cause you to lose the second its CP (so I suppose we do share something with pokemon).

 

[wafflini]

Hm, this makes me wonder about something. Could one reason the 3DS is releasing first is so that there would have been enough time for people to make their favorite customizable fighters and have the chance to use them immediately when they pick up the Wii U version? This working for all kinda of smashers both who play the game competitively or not.

I suppose the problem may be if there's still unlockable characters on both. Where if you have a Customizable fighter on the 3DS version that was an unlockable and you have to unlock them on the Wii U Version first. Though perhaps you unlock all fighters on the Wii U version if you transfer data from the 3DS when you've unlocked them all there as a reward for buying both versions.

I could definitely see the transference of data as a reward for buying both versions play a part as to why the 3ds version is coming out first, though to be honest i imagine it is more for the graphics.

We aren't afraid of a different game, we're afraid that custom movesets may end up killing the competitive scene for obvious reasons (don't make me explain them please).

Please do. The only downside i can see to it is more to memorize and more to learn, which wont be much of an issue, imo. The way i see it, custom movesets will be mostly homogenized after a year or two. Yes, you will see a few odd sets, but it will mostly be from total noobs who have no idea what they are doing (in which case the surprise of an unexpected move will be much less than your level of skill above theirs), and a few daring people looking to push our understanding of the character, which is a part of the meta we must learn to expect.

 

[Saikyoshi]

I personally intend to synchronize the special moves within a Mii to work together with their size and character to make a definite playstyle for that individual. Miis put together differently to be functionally different characters could, I think, add to the experience.

With my will-be main Brawler, PaRappa (Moves: [flaming kick], Onslaught, Tenshōkyaku, [pseudo-falcon kick]) as an example since we already saw all of Brawler's moves in the direct;
His aim is to feel like he did in PlayStation All-Stars; a relentless close combat fighter who just keeps coming. Thus, a number of moves that hit multiple times and allow swift movement, along with a light frame.

He's going to be a completely different animal than a large-framed Brawler equipped with the Shot Put, the Lightning Kick, and the Shoryuken - those all work together to link into a formidable defensive build.

Even Miis within the same class aren't just swapping out moves. If you restrict any moveset, you're still banning entire characters and playstyles.

 

[wafflini]

I personally intend to synchronize the special moves within a Mii to work together with their size and character to make a definite playstyle for that individual. Miis put together differently to be functionally different characters could, I think, add to the experience.

With my will-be main Brawler, PaRappa (Moves: [flaming kick], Onslaught, Tenshōkyaku, [pseudo-falcon kick]) as an example since we already saw all of Brawler's moves in the direct;
His aim is to feel like he did in PlayStation All-Stars; a relentless close combat fighter who just keeps coming. Thus, a number of moves that hit multiple times and allow swift movement, along with a light frame.

He's going to be a completely different animal than a large-framed Brawler equipped with the Shot Put, the Lightning Kick, and the Shoryuken - those all work together to link into a formidable defensive build.

Even Miis within the same class aren't just swapping out moves. If you restrict any moveset, you're still banning entire characters and playstyles.

What height do you plan to have PaRappa at?

 

[UberMadman]

So assuming that like in Mario Kart there are 3 different weight classes for Miis and that Miis are legal, (which I suspect they will be,) do you think there will be 9 tier placements for them or just 3? (I.E. Brawler S, M, and L, Swordfighter S, M, and L, and Gunner S, M, and L, or just the three styles.) For me, I would say that we need to find out how drastic the size differences are, but I'm interested to hear other thoughts on the matter.

 

[Saikyoshi]

What height do you plan to have PaRappa at?

He's already small-to-mid, so I can put the build together without changing him much if at all.

 

[Leonyx]

Here's a little insight I have from being a Soul Calibur fan: Soul Calibur V has the Create-a-Soul like the previous couple of games, but is different in that it had one moveset that was exclusive to created characters. Devil Jin (I believe from Tekken) was only playable if you made a character for the moveset. The moveset was not itself able to be customized. Ultimately, Devil Jin was not allowed to be played during from the start because there was no official character size/default character for the fighting style.

Of course, Soul Calibur's Create-a-Soul is much more detailed than the kinds of fighters you can make from Miis (you can change things like the size of arms or waists or feet, etc., in addition to regular size), but the reason still stands: Devil Jin was banned from tournaments because the hitbox/range of attacks could not be regulated, despite having consistent frame data no matter what. Miis will also have a similar issue, and will also have the added problem of stats changing with different sizes. The details of the exact amount you can customize have not been released (as it could vary by way of a slider, or it could just be a few different size choices), but unless the game comes with a default set of Miis to play as they will be problematic to have in a tournament. Without a default Mii the community will have to decide upon an agreed size/head shape/body shape that feels balanced for competitive play, keeping in mind how those changes will affect the fighter's hitbox, movement speed, start up/cooldown frames, damage, etc. Effectively, the community will need to balance a character for competitive play (er, three characters since there will be three different movesets) on its own, and unanimously agree with that decision.

Now, if the game comes with a few default Miis that the creators felt were balanced, then they should be fine as long as we stick with those Miis. Varying B moves themselves aren't a problem, since they can just be considered like the rest of the cast's moves. If not though, the community shouldn't allow Miis in tournaments.

 

[Saikyoshi]

I still don't think that's a good reason to ban a character. Like I say often: If I can't adapt when something's different, that's my problem.

In fact, Soul of DJ might've been hindered because his stats DIDN'T change with height. Everyone would choose Size 5 to have the biggest hitboxes with full power. SSB4's size system will make a little more sense.

EDIT: Autocorrect, how I hate you.

 

[Leonyx]

I still don't think that's a good reason to ban a character. Like I say often: If I can't adapt when something's different, that's my problem.

In fact, Soul of DJ might've been hindered because his stats DIDN'T change with height. Everyone would choose Size 5 to have the biggest hitboxes with full power. SSB4's size system will make a little more sense.

EDIT: Autocorrect, how I hate you.

That's not the point. We would literally have to create and design our own character AND have to agree on it for it to be fair for other competitors. Adaption is one thing, but if there's no way you can train to fight against an opponent because he/she can have variances in stats and hitboxes, it's not fair to players playing against Miis or Mii players themselves.

With Soul of DJ, players would have to adjust to changes in the players attack ranges every time they faced a new opponent. That's something you can't train for. Once they adjust for that though, they can fight regularly since as far as I am aware things like damage done and other stats were not affected by size. Mii Fighters can potentially vastly change from each variation in damage, knockback, weight, etc. A player would have to adjust to that each fight while Mii Fighters would only have to fight the regular opponents, giving them a huge advantage.

(As a side note, can you reply to my posts so I can get a notification? I had no idea you responded to me.)

 

[Saikyoshi]

@Leonix: The game can't possibly hold more than a few weight classes. Three, maybe five. Five weight classes, each if which you'll see individually dozens of times, really won't be such a nightmare to train for, will they?

So far, nobody has come up with a better excuse to ban them than their own laziness.

In addition, I strongly doubt ANY Mii will be top-tier. Do you know why? Well... You know who's never even once been and never will be competitively viable? Mario. Average in every way, always outclassed somewhere. The smallest Mii will never outrun Fox. The largest Mii will never outweigh Donkey Kong. Why? Because Nintendo wants people to actually play as their characters. Specialists are always potentially more viable than a jack-of-all-master-of-none like Miis inevitably will be, so this is really a non-issue.

 

[Leonyx]

@Leonix: The game can't possibly hold more than a few weight classes. Three, maybe five. Five weight classes, each if which you'll see individually dozens of times, really won't be such a nightmare to train for, will they?

So far, nobody has come up with a better excuse to ban them than their own laziness.

In addition, I strongly doubt ANY Mii will be top-tier. Do you know why? Well... You know who's never even once been and never will be competitively viable? Mario. Average in every way, always outclassed somewhere. The smallest Mii will never outrun Fox. The largest Mii will never outweigh Donkey Kong. Why? Because Nintendo wants people to actually play as their characters. Specialists are always potentially more viable than a jack-of-all-master-of-none like Miis inevitably will be, so this is really a non-issue.

I'm going off of the presumption that a Mii's size will be based off of their regular size like in the Mii creator. There will be significantly more variances if that were the case, and you can adjust nearly precisely. We have no idea what kind of data the game will hold at this point, so we can't be sure that this isn't possible. This is the worst case scenario (in the case of competitive viability) of course, but it could happen.

For the sake of discussion, let's assume that there will only be five different weight classes. There will still be three different kinds of Mii Fighters, but since they all play as their own character we can just consider one of them. In order to train for fighting any kind of variance of this one Mii, you will need to practice against a character with five different hitboxes, weights, knockback, damage, range, frame data, run speeds, jump speeds, and jump height variances (I'm probably missing some). In addition to that, you will need to practice against 12 of the different kinds of special moves each Mii has in this one fighting style, which each have their own set of properties. That is a significant undertaking, lazy or not. For a fair match, a player would have to practice immensely more than your character to have the same match up understanding. Players in games like Melee and Brawl spend a ton of time practicing for a match up already, and those characters have little variance in their movesets and none in their physical properties. Meanwhile, a Mii player would only need to practice against the smaller move variances that each character has, since all other characters have consistent properties (aside from Mii dittos of course). It's just not fair to both parties. Honestly, if I won a large scale tournament I would like to have confidence in saying I won from skill alone rather than that kind of extreme advantage.

My reasoning is not laziness (and I would appreciate it if you didn't just boil my argument down to that), it's fairness.

Also, Mii's aren't jack-of-all-trades characters (unless you can customize them to be good at everything equally stat-wise, since I'm sure each three fighters have their own strengths and weaknesses) because you can specialize them to be tiny speed freaks or big power hitters. We have no idea what kind of stats Miis will have with each size, so we can't make the assumption that they won't be as fast as Fox or as heavy as DK.

Edit: (You're going to have to spell my name right. I didn't get this one either.)

 

[Saikyoshi]

@ Leonyx (and I double checked your name this time):

Variant or not, they are still similar to existing characters. If you've practiced against Fox, Captain Falcon, Mario, and Link, you've got most of Mii Brawler's practice down. If you've practiced against Link, Marth, and Kirby, you only have to practice a little against Swordfighter. If you've practiced against Samus, Mega Man, and Lucario, you've got Gunner down.

You're severely overestimating how thoroughly you need to account for the differences.

 

[Erimir]

If there are really only 3 size variations, I could see all of the variations being allowed.

If there are 5 variations, it gets iffy.

If there are 3 heights x 3 weights = 9 variations, I doubt it.

If there are more variations than that, or continuous variation, no way.

That is, unless they're low-tier at any size. In which case people probably won't care.

Personally, I wouldn't be bothered by having to use a standard size. I'm guessing most people wouldn't either.

 

[Leonyx]

@ Leonyx (and I double checked your name this time):

Variant or not, they are still similar to existing characters. If you've practiced against Fox, Captain Falcon, Mario, and Link, you've got most of Mii Brawler's practice down. If you've practiced against Link, Marth, and Kirby, you only have to practice a little against Swordfighter. If you've practiced against Samus, Mega Man, and Lucario, you've got Gunner down.

You're severely overestimating how thoroughly you need to account for the differences.

Well, I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that Miis won't be as varied as I'm suggesting. I don't think we have seen enough footage of the Miis to make a claim that they are similar to other characters either. I mean, Link, Marth, Ike, Toon Link/Young Link, and Roy all use swords but they each have a different playstyle (no idea why you put Kirby as a sword user, by the way, since he can only use a sword as his UpB). Mii Swordfighters could be just as different as them. We don't have enough experience to say they are or aren't. The same goes for the rest of the moves.

Anyways, most of our claims can't be proven true or false without more evidence. We can really only argue opinions at this point. I certainly agree that we should at least wait for more information before we do any banning.

(Thanks for getting the name right!)

 

[Saikyoshi]

@ Leonyx : Thank you. Super Smash Bros. is different than Soul Calibur* or any traditional fighter, so character bans have not gone over well previously. We should definitely give a grace period instead of banning day one, because that would just be a scrubby thing to do.

(*I still fail to see why Soul of DJ was banned, ESPECIALLY since SCV marks "default" sizes with a star icon.)


By the way, I listed Kirby under Swordfighter because we've already seen that Final Cutter is an Up B option for them.

@ Erimir : The problem with forcing a default size is that every end-user will have to adjust every single solitary Mii manually in Mii Maker, which for one thing automatically disqualifies any that you didn't make yourself. This also poses an aesthetics problem because not every character fits one height and a default setting would just look wrong on them.

Not to mention it would affect all of a user's games that use Miis, not just Super Smash Bros.

 

[Leonyx]

@ Leonyx : Thank you. Super Smash Bros. is different than Soul Calibur* or any traditional fighter, so character bans have not gone over well previously. We should definitely give a grace period instead of banning day one, because that would just be a scrubby thing to do.

(*I still fail to see why Soul of DJ was banned, ESPECIALLY since SCV marks "default" sizes with a star icon.)


By the way, I listed Kirby under Swordfighter because we've already seen that Final Cutter is an Up B option for them.

Er, I'd be fine with a day one ban if the problems I mention appear. I just think it's too early to decide right now since the info we have is so vague. In order for it to be fair we would have to have to have some kind of default option for us to go off of. At least then you could have custom Miis as long as they followed the default size.

(The default size of a character in Soul Calibur doesn't change the fact that you can change the shape and size of body parts, in addition to there being two kinds of body types. Plus, the default would need clothes, and I believe that can affect your hitbox as well. Still should have been a less serious case than the Miis, at any rate.)

 

[Saikyoshi]

@ Leonyx : A day one ban wouldn't be fair to the end-user. It's boarding up an entire mode because you deemed it too powerful without good cause, and that's not fair to anyone except the people who are screaming that Miis don't belong in the roster period.

Not to mention banning would further increase the schism between casual and competitive. Look at Smogon: nearly all of the hatred for that community is because people love Mega Kangaskhan as a character and are upset that they can't use her. Yes, she is too powerful, but people develop strong attachments to their characters. Bans feel like personal attacks.

One thing's for sure: If Miis are banned or restricted to the point of being pointless day one, I'm not buying the game.

 

[Leonyx]

@ Leonyx : A day one ban wouldn't be fair to the end-user. It's boarding up an entire mode because you deemed it too powerful without good cause, and that's not fair to anyone except the people who are screaming that Miis don't belong in the roster period.

Not to mention banning would further increase the schism between casual and competitive. Look at Smogon: nearly all of the hatred for that community is because people love Mega Kangaskhan as a character and are upset that they can't use her. Yes, she is too powerful, but people develop strong attachments to their characters. Bans feel like personal attacks.

One thing's for sure: If Miis are banned or restricted to the point of being pointless day one, I'm not buying the game.

If it's better for the game to have it banned, it should be banned. There's not really any other way around it. It would be like allowing Shao Khan to be playable in Mortal Kombat if it was possible. Everyone would just flock to him as he is the best way to win, making the game stale and shallow. If he gets banned and it opens up the rest of the cast to be playable, the competitive aspect of the game would be better for it.

I understand that bans can feel like personal attacks, but at the end of the day sometimes they need to happen. It's why we bans certain stages, even though some players make like them. I don't know anything about Pokemon, but if the community felt like Mega Kangaskhan needed to be banned for the good of the game then it needs to happen.

I don't follow how this boards up a whole mode though. Miis are just one character, so why would a whole mode not be playable?

The ban would not be without good cause. As I've said before, if Miis end up having the problems I pointed out it would not be fair for anyone to have them playable competitively. Honestly, I'm actually looking forward to playing Miis. I was against them at first, but after seeing what they can do in game, I'm excited. That being said, I could completely understand why they would get banned. Sometimes things need to be sacrificed for the good of the game.

I don't know you, so forgive me if I come across as ignorant, but do you play SSB competitively? As in, do you travel to fight in tournaments for cash? If not, the bans wouldn't really affect you. It would be a bit rash to not buy a game you're looking forward to only because you can't play as three characters in tournaments, don't you think?

 

[LiteralGrill]

If it's better for the game to have it banned, it should be banned. There's not really any other way around it. It would be like allowing Shao Khan to be playable in Mortal Kombat if it was possible. Everyone would just flock to him as he is the best way to win, making the game stale and shallow. If he gets banned and it opens up the rest of the cast to be playable, the competitive aspect of the game would be better for it.

Meta Knight destroys that entire argument. Plus, nothing should be banned unless it's actually broken, whether it's "better" or not. WAY to subjective there.

 

[Saikyoshi]

@ Leonyx : I am a competitive player. The only reason that I haven't yet participated in a tournament is an inability to travel.

If they're banned, that means it would officially be cheating if I used them, and that would ****ing suck because I really wanted to get excited about that feature. I love character creation in general, and it's something I've wanted in Smash for a very long time. And now that it's finally here, a bunch of scrubs want to label it as cheating day one because they can't adjust to change or account for any kind of variance.

So that's why I'm strongly considering renouncing my competitive allegiance and leaving the Super Smash Bros. fandom in general; everything I heard about the tournament scene has turned out to be true. You really do care more about seeing what you can ban next than unlocking the game's full potential. In short, I gave it a try, and I'm sickened by what I'm seeing. I studied. I trained. I spent tons of hours behind a GC controller. I wasted my time.

So congratulations, Smashboards. You've turned me from completely hyped to completely repulsed in just one week.

 

[Morbi]

@ Leonyx : I am a competitive player. The only reason that I haven't yet participated in a tournament is an inability to travel.

If they're banned, that means it would officially be cheating if I used them, and that would ****ing suck because I really wanted to get excited about that feature. I love character creation in general, and it's something I've wanted in Smash for a very long time. And now that it's finally here, a bunch of scrubs want to label it as cheating day one because they can't adjust to change or account for any kind of variance.

So that's why I'm strongly considering renouncing my competitive allegiance and leaving the Super Smash Bros. fandom in general; everything I heard about the tournament scene has turned out to be true. You really do care more about seeing what you can ban next than unlocking the game's full potential. In short, I gave it a try, and I'm sickened by what I'm seeing.

So congratulations, Smashboards. You've turned me from completely hyped to completely repulsed in just one week.

I agree with this sentiment more than you could possibly know, it is also the reason that I am not a part of the competitive scene despite an overt interest on my part. I am still a spectator, but the mentality is counter-intuitive and I do not wish to be a part of it myself.

 

[Saikyoshi]

I agree with this sentiment more than you could possibly know, it is also the reason that I am not a part of the competitive scene despite an overt interest on my part. I am still a spectator, but the mentality is counter-intuitive and I do not wish to be a part of it myself.

Funny thing is, I joined the competitive scene in the first place because I was so sick of the other side... ("Ike is cheap!" "P:M just ruins an already perfect game!" "Remove For Glory! Destroy the GC adapter!")

I'm honestly not sure which side is worse anymore. Which is why this turning into more than rejecting tourney rules and going into a full-on "I won't buy it".