Mii Fighter: Competitive Scene Implications

[Hong]

My opinion?

I think it's great. Character variation is great for competitive play in general, especially since we can have the luxury of having a system where the choices people make will be entirely transparent; it's not like we'll be having people field surprise Mii Fighters. You will KNOW what they select for special moves, and you will KNOW what those specials do. Of course there will be options that are considered superior in a specific matchup... this isn't new to competitive gaming at all. If someone can pull out an unexpected setup every now and then, that's GREAT. The strength of the character is based on their options, in battle and out.

Other games, even fighters, allow some customization, and that's fine. Capcom fighters of course let you pick some kind of super move, such as SF4's ultras. Some are deliberately designed for specific kinds of characters. The developer doesn't expect you to use other options. They shouldn't have to. It is 100% okay if some specials are bad against specific characters. Mario's fast fireball, for example, could very well be a superior option in the Villager matchup compared to the standard fireball.

Palutena and the Mii Fighters are the most interesting in that their specials differ drastically. That said, within a month, you know exactly what people will be running. The metagame will gradually shift and new setups will seem like the most optimal, and every now and then someone will do something new and impress. When that does happen, it's not like it is subverting counterpick dynamic: you KNOW that character has that option, and you accommodate for it. The character still has very defined strengths and weaknesses, and there are no surrpises. Other equally competitive games have dealt with this for years.

We will still have character counterpicks, and I think people should be encouraged to pick their special moves after the characters have been selected, and then pick the special moves you think are the best in that match-up. It is done right in-front of your opponents eyes, and you already 100% know what that character is capable of. Again, this isn't new to the FGC. This will be one of the easier things for the Smash community to adapt to.

And yeah, obviously you don't need to worry about the actual Miis themselves. No way do we need, or should even want, people bringing their own Miis to tournaments. Just have at least four visually distinct MIis on each system and that's fine.

 

[Banjo-Kazooie]

Please let there be default Mii Fighters.
Now I know how it felt to be a Metaknight player during mid-Brawl times.

 

[BitingBaker]

Guys...wait to play them/as them before calling ban.

Jumping the gun is a fault all too often tread by the Smash community.

They shouldn't even be in the game. I call a ban FROM THE ENTIRE GAME.

Custom characters don't belong in Smash Bros.

 

[Sqa$]

They shouldn't even be in the game. I call a ban FROM THE ENTIRE GAME.

Custom characters don't belong in Smash Bros.

Glad to see an open mind from the Smash Bros. Community. Let's at least give things a chance before trashing it and calling out Sakurai and the developers for what they did. It's a feature people have been requesting forever, and once they put it in, everybody is nailing them for it. I don't get it.

 

[young grasshopper]

When you square up vs a Mii Brawler, you have no idea what special moves they have set to their character. When you square up against Mario, you know exactly what moves they have.

It would be like allowing the custom movesets shown from the April direct into tournaments. You don't know which Mario fireball you'll get.

you will as soon as he uses it. Just think about how much depth this would add to the metagame, it would give many tools to all different play styles as well as bringing in a hole new dimension to smash. Should I hold back and see what moves he has? Should I do the unexpected and approach with one of my special moves? Should I save my special moves for when they least expect it? this game is about learning on the fly.

 

[Jade_Rock55]

I like that idea young grasshopper!

 

[young grasshopper]

thanks, I feel that most pokemon players (myself included) will like this new feature

 

[Pokerhappy]

My thoughts: Mii battles.

Each player gets three Miis, each with a custom moveset that you must pick before the battle starts. You then proceed by crew battle rules.

This would create a strategic element in creating a well-rounded team, because you need to counterpick the right build after losing a Mii.

 

[Second Power]

I'm laughing at some of the logic used against Miis.
You never know which move they'll have when you fight them, you'll be totally surprised and lose! I highly doubt a single move, even powered by surprise factor, will allow you to win a game. Unless they have some super powerful combo tool like Shine in Melee or a powerful fast OOS kill move like MK's loop. Even then, the move would probably be broken even if include in a character's 'default'.
They still have surprise factor, it's an unfair advantage!

1. Okay, ignoring the above that the advantage is minuscule, you are right that there is an advantage. Even if we allow all custom moves (which I strongly believe we should), they still have a minor advantage because there's are completely different moves rather than just different properties. However, I take umbrage that it's 'unfair'. Unfair is incredibly subjective. For one thing, it'll only 'let' you land one attack (more on this in point 2). Omigod they got 15% (at max, probably), a combo (incredibly unlikely since very few specials are combo starters), or landed a kill move to finish a stock. The reward definitely isn't absurd.
2. And this brings me to my second point. Each special is picked from a predefined pool of a whooping 3 specials. Play it Schrodinger style and act as though they have all of them until proven false. Hell, you can probably pick out tells. One of the Down-Bs is a kill move, you're at 110% on your first stock and haven't seen your opponent's Down-B? There probably carrying that and saving it to surprise you. Yes, you have to change up how you play. If you're a good player, you'll do this versus any character.

 

[young grasshopper]

I'm laughing at some of the logic used against Miis.
You never know which move they'll have when you fight them, you'll be totally surprised and lose! I highly doubt a single move, even powered by surprise factor, will allow you to win a game. Unless they have some super powerful combo tool like Shine in Melee or a powerful fast OOS kill move like MK's loop. Even then, the move would probably be broken even if include in a character's 'default'.
They still have surprise factor, it's an unfair advantage!

1. Okay, ignoring the above that the advantage is minuscule, you are right that there is an advantage. Even if we allow all custom moves (which I strongly believe we should), they still have a minor advantage because there's are completely different moves rather than just different properties. However, I take umbrage that it's 'unfair'. Unfair is incredibly subjective. For one thing, it'll only 'let' you land one attack (more on this in point 2). Omigod they got 15% (at max, probably), a combo (incredibly unlikely since very few specials are combo starters), or landed a kill move to finish a stock. The reward definitely isn't absurd.
2. And this brings me to my second point. Each special is picked from a predefined pool of a whooping 3 specials. Play it Schrodinger style and act as though they have all of them until proven false. Hell, you can probably pick out tells. One of the Down-Bs is a kill move, you're at 110% on your first stock and haven't seen your opponent's Down-B? There probably carrying that and saving it to surprise you. Yes, you have to change up how you play. If you're a good player, you'll do this versus any character.

I fully agree with you, too bad the smash community complains about EVERYTHING

 

[SonicMario]

If Miis are banned just because of the customizable moveset being different for all of their selectable choices. Then I guess Palutena should be banned too just because she also has the same thing. It'd be unfair to those who select to choose Miis or Palutena for tournaments. Give them the same chance every fighter in the Smash series has had. Even if you have to restrict Miis and/or Palutena to their default movesets in tournaments that will disallow customization.

They shouldn't even be in the game. I call a ban FROM THE ENTIRE GAME

At first I thought you were being cute by posting your petty complaints about the Miis being included in SSB4. On the Mii Fighter boards where there are people who are fans of the idea and/or people who plan on trying out or maining the Miis at some point.

But now it's getting to the point where you seriously need to SHUT. THE. ****. UP.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I think both Miis and Palutena will have a default moveset. Unless they do a bad thing and make the starting moves available completely random.

Besides, I have faith that there'll be no completely broken custom moves.

 

[guedes the brawler]

it wont be hard, same deal as palutena: just have them use no customization, or the very first moves on the list.

Palutena most likely own't be banned, because the game will, also, most likely shove a moveset as her "default" one.

 

[young grasshopper]

it wont be hard, same deal as palutena: just have them use no customization, or the very first moves on the list.

Palutena most likely own't be banned, because the game will, also, most likely shove a moveset as her "default" one.

or just allow customization for everyone

 

[guedes the brawler]

or just allow customization for everyone

we don't know how customiztion setups will behave like. if they are too clunky to setup they will most likely be banned

 

[young grasshopper]

we don't know how customiztion setups will behave like. if they are too clunky to setup they will most likely be banned

I guess it would be to tedious for the Wii U, but it should work for the 3ds

 

[NekuShikazu]

If all the standard specials are the first options I'd see that as fine.
If I'm not clear, I'm referring to the first specials available.

 

[Saikyoshi]

I sincerely hope they'll be allowed unrestricted. I'm very much an honor-bound player in every game I play- I refuse to use any option considered competitively overpowered even in casual play. No Pikachu in 64. No Fox in Melee/M. No Meta Knight in Brawl. It wouldn't be fair to my opponent.

If Miis got banned or restricted to "default only", there would be no way I could enjoy the feature at all because I'd feel too guilty.

 

[LiteralGrill]

"Pic of the day. Some of the physical characteristics of Miis get carried over when you use them as Mii Fighters. The smaller ones become speed fighters and the bigger ones are more akin to power fighters."

Okay, so not only do we already have at least 387 possible combinations of fighters, we have to add to that the extra possibilities of their size! That could leave us with at least 729 combinations (if we use light weight, middle weight, heavy weight). BUT EVEN MORE THEN THAT a tall skinny Mii with have different hit and hurt boxes then a short skinny Mii. The amount of possibilities are astronomical.

Now as I've stated before, I want to test everything before we ban it in any way if we can, but how will we handle this incredibly vast sphere of customization in tournaments?

 

[Saikyoshi]

I'm mostly concerned about how to get them to the tournaments. Will we have to bring our Amiibos or QR code printouts? That's the only real issue I see.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I'm mostly concerned about how to get them to the tournaments. Will we have to bring our Amiibos or QR code printouts? That's the only real issue I see.

Well on the 3DS it'll be easy as heck, on the Wii U I don't know.

I'd still be concerned about if TOs will allow them. I'm all for custom moves and was gung ho to test them all out, but Miis are astronomical in how they fight. Maybe Mii only tournaments or something... It's just too much to ask a player to know THAT many combinations of fighters to me and be expected to fight them all. I can also foresee people ONLY choosing Miis simply for that reason. It could overcentralize our game.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Well on the 3DS it'll be easy as heck, on the Wii U I don't know.

I'd still be concerned about if TOs will allow them. I'm all for custom moves and was gung ho to test them all out, but Miis are astronomical in how they fight. Maybe Mii only tournaments or something... It's just too much to ask a player to know THAT many combinations of fighters to me and be expected to fight them all. I can also foresee people ONLY choosing Miis simply for that reason. It could overcentralize our game.

(As if Meta Knight and the Spacies haven't done that already.)

I wouldn't worry about that. I addressed the combinations thing in another thread, but as for the over centralizing thing, not gonna happen. The "canon" characters are a lot more interesting and versatile within one move set. Mii versatility is all spread out into the different sets.

 

[LiteralGrill]

(As if Meta Knight and the Spacies haven't done that already.)

I wouldn't worry about that. I addressed the combinations thing in another thread, but as for the over centralizing thing, not gonna happen. The "canon" characters are a lot more interesting and versatile within one move set. Mii versatility is all spread out into the different sets.

See, there's the issue. We don't like that happening now, and the way miis look they are setting up to do that. Play Miis or die.

Not necessarily. A lot of the Miis are combinations of some of the characters we already have, sword, and blaster especially so. You thought Marth could be an issue, wait for Marth with projectiles.

Sorry for the horrible formatting, crashboards wont let the quotes work right.

 

[Deleted member]

Maybe Mii only tournaments or something...

The hypest tournaments ever.

Bill Cosby vs. Gordon Ramsay Grand Finals.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Well, while it's definitely not a good thing, we shouldn't pretend it's anything new.

Also:

1: For the first time, Sakurai actually seems to be making an active effort to balance the game. Best case scenario, it'll be like Virtua Fighter or Street Fighter 4, where while there are visible tiers, the low tiers at least stand a reasonable chance against the top dogs.

2: Miis not being available in With Anyone play is likely to get people more used to standard characters.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well, while it's definitely not a good thing, we shouldn't pretend it's anything new.

Never said it was something new, but dealing with it can make or break a game. Brawl isn't looking too hot right now, and it's not just because of the physics of the game, almost all events being saturated with MK makes it a dull thing to play and watch. The same would happen with Miis.

Also:

1: For the first time, Sakurai actually seems to be making an active effort to balance the game. Best case scenario, it'll be like Virtua Fighter or Street Fighter 4, where while there are visible tiers, the low tiers at least stand a reasonable chance against the top dogs.

He's also balancing with items and FFAs in mind. Plus, even though he looks to be doing more work on it this time, the past doesn't show that he's ever really managed a great job of it before. He also has to focus on casual players, the types who think Ike is way too strong and needs a nerf. Ike could use buffs, he's maybe mid tier. See the issue? The way he balances it doesn't lead towards good balance for us competitive folks. (I mean from everyone who's tried it so far they've said Zelda seems to be NERFED even though she was one of the worst characters in Brawl, not a good sign. Samus being the best in his eyes is also scary when every competitive player disagreed with that entirely.) Though I will say with patches possible we can hope that hopeless characters at least get tweaks.

2: Miis not being available in With Anyone play is likely to get people more used to standard characters.

There could be a psychological connection for newer folks with that. BUT not being able to play them with everyone may want to make them play as their Mii EVEN MORE when they have the opportunity to live as well.

 

[Mr.Seven]

I'd be willing to bet money that they won't be banned, but I'll be sure to actively avoid tourneys that ban Miis if it does end up going that route.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I'd be willing to bet money that they won't be banned, but I'll be sure to actively avoid tourneys that ban Miis if it does end up going that route.

What if big events like Apex ban them? There's your issue. When the largest events ban something, almost everyone else follows suit so they can be prepared for said event. So you may honestly have no where to play at a tournament minus online in that case.

Either way, I have bad feelings this will split our community up in a bad way.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Plus, even though he looks to be doing more work on it this time, the past doesn't show that he's ever really managed a great job of it before.

Because he's never even considered it before. Until the Smash Invitational, he's shown feelings of active hatred for the competitive community.

We know for a fact that he decided Brawl's balance completely by himself. He said so. Now he has people helping with that.

He also has to focus on casual players, the types who think Ike is way too strong and needs a nerf. Ike could use buffs, he's maybe mid tier. See the issue? The way he balances it doesn't lead towards good balance for us competitive folks.

Ike wasn't good, but the smash attack spam was highly irritating. Balancing that would at least make him more interesting even among inexperienced fighters.

I mean from everyone who's tried it so far they've said Zelda seems to be NERFED even though she was one of the worst characters in Brawl, not a good sign.

Yes, that is alarming. But we know he's been taking notes. Maybe he'll come to his senses.

Samus being the best in his eyes is also scary when every competitive player disagreed with that entirely.

He outright said he read the wrong report some time after he said that.

Though I will say with patches possible we can hope that hopeless characters at least get tweaks.

That's an advantage of new gen consoles. Brawl didn't have that benefit.

Remember in PS All Stars when Sackboy was an unstoppable god and Fat Princess was a total joke? Patches fixed that and made the endgame pretty level.

There could be a psychological connection for newer folks with that. BUT not being able to play them with everyone may want to make them play as their Mii EVEN MORE when they have the opportunity to live as well.

I don't know about you, but that's not making sense to me. If you're a competitor, why suddenly play as a character you haven't had as much of an opportunity to train with?

 

[Mr.Seven]

What if big events like Apex ban them? There's your issue. When the largest events ban something, almost everyone else follows suit so they can be prepared for said event. So you may honestly have no where to play at a tournament minus online in that case.

Either way, I have bad feelings this will split our community up in a bad way.

I don't go to Apex or the major tournaments like that. Probably the biggest reason why is that just watching it lacks any sort of fun whatsoever. The tournaments I go to are mainly local stuff with pretty lenient rules. Back in the Brawl days, there were ones that I went to that fully allowed Meta Knight, and this was during his supposed ban.

And even if they got banned in every tournament ever, I still would not be bothered, since I have have friends to sit on the couch and just play matches with. My number one reason for playing a game is to have fun, and if I'm not having fun, I will up and leave mid-tourney, no matter what the winnings were. I did it before during a tournament in Baton Rouge, even when I was in the winner's bracket. I got up, unhooked my controller and walked out because I wasn't having fun. Everyone was taking it way too seriously, which made the whole event feel like a chore more than anything.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Because he's never even considered it before. Until the Smash Invitational, he's shown feelings of active hatred for the competitive community.

We know for a fact that he decided Brawl's balance completely by himself. He said so. Now he has people helping with that.

That was Melee actually. He had a very small team (like 4 other folks) in Brawl. This time it's 12 people.

Ike wasn't good, but the smash attack spam was highly irritating. Balancing that would at least make him more interesting even among inexperienced fighters.

The issue is, if the inexperienced players have their say (which they will since Sakurai balances this for those types and not us) he'll get a nerfed in some form when he actually needs buffs. Again, his balancing isn't much for being trusted.

Yes, that is alarming. But we know he's been taking notes. Maybe he'll come to his senses.

It's not him, it was people from Nintendo of America who sat down to ask people what they though. Sakurai may never even see any of those notes, and could choose to actively just ignore them as well being the director. I'm hopeful he'll listen, but I'm not going to count on it.

He outright said he read the wrong report some time after he said that.

Can you quote that for me? I'd love to see it as it would mean a lot.

That's an advantage of new gen consoles. Brawl didn't have that benefit.

Remember in PS All Stars when Sackboy was an unstoppable god and Fat Princess was a total joke? Patches fixed that and made the endgame pretty level.

If you are attempting to say that the patches in PSASBR helped balance the game decently, your definition of balance is off. I was the largest TO the game EVER had as perspective here, many of the patches buffed top tier characters and nerfed low tier characters. Patches are awesome to have, but they can also backfire as well with PSASBR being a prime example.

I don't know about you, but that's not making sense to me. If you're a competitor, why suddenly play as a character you haven't had as much as an opportunity to train with?

You don't have to train online to train, and even then you can use them online with friends.

I don't go to Apex or the major tournaments like that. Probably the biggest reason why is that just watching it lacks any sort of fun whatsoever. The tournaments I go to are mainly local stuff with pretty lenient rules. Back in the Brawl days, there were ones that I went to that fully allowed Meta Knight, and this was during his supposed ban.

And even if they got banned in every tournament ever, I still would not be bothered, since I have have friends to sit on the couch and just play matches with. My number one reason for playing a game is to have fun, and if I'm not having fun, I will up and leave mid-tourney, no matter what the winnings were. I did it before during a tournament in Baton Rouge, even when I was in the winner's bracket. I got up, unhooked my controller and walked out because I wasn't having fun. Everyone was taking it way too seriously, which made the whole event feel like a chore more than anything.

You have a very different mindset then many on here. Plus a lot of people consider that competition you don't seem to enjoy as fun themselves.

Side comment, kinda rude to the TO to randomly walk out of an event though. Just saying.

 

[Saikyoshi]

@Ike: Not to his smash attacks. Nerfing those will be beneficial to his play style as a whole because e was way too dependent on them.

@samus: I'm pretty sure he said it during the Invitational stream. I don't know the exact quote.

@PSASBR: The plus side is, if it does backfire, Nintendo's been good about giving their games a long support lifespan. PSASBR's support life was only about three months.

@training online: For Glory will still be the primary play area, though, since tournaments don't pop up that often, especially with the large part of the audience that can't travel.

 

[Mr.Seven]

You have a very different mindset then many on here. Plus a lot of people consider that competition you don't seem to enjoy as fun themselves.

Side comment, kinda rude to the TO to randomly walk out of an event though. Just saying.

That's them, they like doing those big tourneys, and more power to them for it. It's how they have fun. It's just not for me.

Yeah, it may have been rude, but I did talk with the organizer about me leaving it, and he understood. The TO was a cool guy. I'm still friends with him to this day, it's just most of the players there weren't, and it basically ruined the whole experience for me.

 

[young grasshopper]

Well on the 3DS it'll be easy as heck, on the Wii U I don't know.

I'd still be concerned about if TOs will allow them. I'm all for custom moves and was gung ho to test them all out, but Miis are astronomical in how they fight. Maybe Mii only tournaments or something... It's just too much to ask a player to know THAT many combinations of fighters to me and be expected to fight them all. I can also foresee people ONLY choosing Miis simply for that reason. It could overcentralize our game.

I think that mii-only side tournaments would be awesome!

 

[LiteralGrill]

There could be another way to look at this:

Fighter Light
Fighter Mid
Fighter Heavy

etc.

So, if compared to other characters we've got 9 different base sets to customize and learn about IF this is done in a similar way as Mario Kart was done with Miis in the past.

Though you could have tall fat, short fat as options if it effected hit and hurtboxes. So... Maybe more around 18 fighters. Still quite large, but still doable i guess.

 

[Ginger Hail]

With this new development, I definitely think using one of the default Miis might be the best choice since it comes with every single Wii U and would be identical in terms of stats no matter the situation.

 

[Saikyoshi]

We still don't even know if there will be default-installed fighter profiles.

(I know I'm grasping at straws, but I really don't want them banned or restricted because I won't be able to use them without my conscience nagging "oh ****, I'm cheating, I'm cheating".)

 

[LiteralGrill]

We still don't even know if there will be default-installed fighter profiles.

(I know I'm grasping at straws, but I really don't want them banned or restricted because I won't be able to use them without my conscience nagging "oh ****, I'm cheating, I'm cheating".)

The mii itself comes with a default guy we could all use.

 

[Lukingordex]

It's simple, if they have a default moveset, them there's no problem in allowing them as long it's not allowed ANY costumization.
If they don't, i'm sorry, but *BANNED*.

And please, your guys know moveset costumization is a ridiculous thing, they infected another games with this crap, and now they're infecting our game too, urgh.

 

[LiteralGrill]

It's simple, if they have a default moveset, them there's no problem in allowing them as long it's not allowed ANY costumization.
If they don't, i'm sorry, but *BANNED*.

And please, your guys know moveset costumization is a ridiculous thing, they infected another games with this crap, and now they're infecting our game too, urgh.

I thought you should never ban something until it was proven banworthy. You can't just ban things because you don't like them. Well you can, but you'd be called a scrub.