Metaknights's Matchup Discussion

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Maybe I'll learn this. BUT, how many useable frames does mk get? Can I do any intangable attacks?

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

He'll have to be a lot higher than 120%, because DI is a thing. MK's bthrow is a great launcher, but it's not a kill throw.

It's not supposed to be a kill move. It makes it so that they get far enough away from the stage that they can't double jump -> up b back on and also can't get a side b charge fast enough to reach the stage again. And yeah upon thinking about it some more, they probably do need to be at a higher percent. It's not like it's something that Ike players should be super cautious of or anything either, it's just like something that can happen because of the way Ike recovers.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Maybe I'll learn this. BUT, how many useable frames does mk get? Can I do any intangable attacks?

I am talking about the haxdash, not the ledgedash. The ledgedash works like this:

If you drop perfectly you have 30 29 (sry, was working with the Melee value first) frames of invincibility. From my tests a perfect waveland touches the stage at at frame 9 so you are left with 10 frames of special landing animation and have still 11 10 frames left:
F-tilt (3) and Dash attack (4) is easily doable.
D-smash (6), d-tilt (6), up-tilt (if you ever need it in that moment lol; 7), up-smash (8) affords some precision.
Nair (inner 7; outer 9), up-air (9), fair(10), Cape(7) and up-b(8) afford great precision

The haxdash is just the quickest form of refreshing ledge intangibility. Its main use is to cover two windows of potential recovery which are separated by >=30 frames. You can also use it if those windows are separated by less which won't give you guaranteed results but a higher chance of a successful edgeguard. The important point is that there is a separation of those time windows so reacting to the haxdash and fine-tuning the recovery adequately is not possible.
Examples are Marth/Roy using side-b (the window where they can't up-b because of it separates the potential (up-b) recovery windows. Other examples include bomb jumps where there are also times where they can't recover quick enough, midair jumps do count as examples to make a haxdash success likely but not guaranteed. You can also do the haxdash without them using that kind of window if you predict they will do it before they can react to your decision. If recoveries like Ike's up-b just take very long until you could be harmed/ the ledge could be grabbed that also means guaranteed success if timed properly.

I might do an abstract, yet helpful post about edgeguarding/recovery scenarios and classifying them in the near future.

 

[Espi]

I'm having a lot of trouble with Snake. Any general matchup info?

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

I've actually heard that MK is one of Snake's worst matchups. I think it was Rolex who said that, don't quote me on that though. Point is it's in MK's favor.

To be honest, I haven't played too many Snakes so I don't know the matchup inside and out, I do know that MK has good edgeguarding options though. Snake has a more or less linear recovery and you can jump in with a nair or bair a lot of the time, and you also have the dair trade option open. As long as you can get a read of when Snake is going to let go of the helicopter thing or where he's going to go, you can punish pretty well. Good Snakes can be reeeally good at getting away from this though.

That's all I really know from my little experience. I'm guessing that maybe MK having a great air game and a bunch of jumps is one thing that gives Snake troubles, I'm just hypothesizing about that though. Anyone else know more? I'm curious for more info too.

 

[victinivcreate1]

@ Espi
Snake can chaingrab into sticky from around 0-45 on MK with a guaranteed sticky too. However, you can try chaingrabbing him with down throw, and once he starts DI'ng it properly, then go for a back throw. After about 45%, don't forget to pummel Snake after every grab. Keeps everything fresh.

You want to try and DI Snake's up throw behind him after you go too high for chaingrabs. However, be careful, some of the faster Snakes may see that and get that forward air follow up. That being said, don't be too predictable. Mix up away and behind DI. Never DI upwards. Snake can very easily up air and then detonate his C4. I have done this on MKs and have gotten kills around 85%.

Be wary of Snake's ftilt. A lot of Snake's use ftilt one, then if you don't tech, they jab reset, then tranquilizer, sticky, and then down air into up air into C4 blow up. The best way to DI down air is probably away, minimizes the aerial follow ups Snake can get unless he is hard reading your DI. I'm not entirely certain if you can SDI Snake's dair.

When pressuring Snake, be mindful of your spacing, because Snake's Up B is invincible from the moment it starts, to the four frames afterwards, and on frame 5 it has a hitbox. Sometimes Cypher can land two shockhits and if you're at low to middling percents, this can lead into any aerial, though the most potent one is forward air.

However, this MU is still in MK's favor. As I already mentioned, MK has grab shenanigans on Snake. 2. Snake's recovery is very easy to edgeguard. Just bair or fair or nair to beat it. If you nair it, make sure Snake's Up B shock hitbox still isn't out, or otherwise you may get hit (unless you have extremely precise nair spacing and hit with the sword part of nair). Fair and bair are more reliable to beat Cypher.

Snake also has a difficult time landing on the ground. Juggle him with up air, and when he lands, come with a grab or dash attack or up smash.

Snake's crawl attack is trolly but you can avoid that by jumping over him. Crawl attack into sticky is guaranteed. Snake could also SHFFL a nair so only the first two kicks come out and then get a sticky that way too.

You can stuff all of Snake's approaches in neutral. His neutral sucks. Just try to minimize errors when fighting Snakes. A good Snake will get that hard punish.

 

[Espi]

Thank's i'll take this stuff into account next time I play a snake. I just had little trouble understanding all of snakes stuff.

 

[bubbaking]

Rolex and I attend the same college, so I've played the MK:Snake MU almost daily for over a year. I can definitely tell you that he thinks that it's one of Snake's worst MUs, but you've really got to take what he says with a grain of salt. I do agree that MK beats Snake, but Snake has such a hard punish game on MK (and MK is so light) that one mistake can actually add up to a lost stock. MK can play campy until he has a solid opening. You don't want to force yourself in because that just leads to MK being grabbed. When are these openings? Well, anytime Snake does something that's not a jab or tilt, that's a pretty big opening. Mortar, grenade, dsmash, they're all huge openings that MK can divestab, DA, or dash in and grab. You can basically pressure Snake pretty easily once he tries to pull out an explosive that will hurt him as well, and you can easily throw him out from under a mortar before it comes back down. Once he's in, MK can do pretty hard damage with a tech-chase and/or combos off his throws. Ftr, MK can CG Snake if he DIs away incorrectly, and he gets super easy combos if he DIs in.

Offstage, MK gets pretty free edgeguards on Snake. Bair (or any aerial, really) deep offstage is free but won't kill him for a while. However, here's a really cool trick for edgeguarding Snake. If you divestab Snake's Cypher, you will ALWAYS spike him and be hit out of the dive by the Cypher. This edgeguarding technique is super easy and reliably consistent (it also works for Falco just jumping offstage to spike him). Nowadays, Rolex will actually cut off his Cypher very early below the ledge and just blow himself up with C4 'cause he knows I'm gonna divestab him if he lets me. He also can't really recover next to the ledge easily because I'm just waiting there.

When you're going in, keep some things in mind. Use bair a LOT. It's safe on CC and block, so if you do a cross-up or RAR bair, you should be fine. If you're going to nair, try to overshoot your nairs so that you land behind his shield. I actually avoid using fair too much as an approach option at neutral because it's easily CC'd, and I think it's negative on block. Spaced tilts behind Snake's shield are broken. Also, Snake can't really do anything about MK's fsmash (Rolex gets hit by that move sooo many times... ). This may seem weird, but pay serious attention to your surroundings before you uthrow Snake. I have grabbed him right after a Cypher before and then killed myself 'cause I uthrew right into said Cypher inside the upper blastzone. I've also been hit by grenades up there, and of course, you have to watch out for mines on plats above (pay attention to port priority also).

You really have to watch out for Snake's CC 'cause that crap is broken, his dtilt comes out quickly, and most of MK's moves are very CC-able. Even if you cross-up Snake up with your nair while crouching, Snake's dtilt has a very stupid hitbox that hits behind him and will still pop you up for combos. In the off-chance that you actually get grabbed, DI at first to try to escape, but stop DIing after a few throws (Prof Pro also recommended this the last time I saw him talk about escaping Snake's CG). No DI gives MK his maximum height after Snake's uthrow, shortening the CG. However, if you're already stickied, then DI because you don't want to be uaired after uthrow (watch out for fair spike, though). DIing left or right will actually cause MK to not go up as high, thereby extending the CG. Snake is easy to juggle, even with a 'nade in his hands, but you really still have to be cautious about trying to juggle him with anything that's not a true combo. A big Snake tactic is to drop a C4 below him, especially when he's in the upper blastzone so the action is hidden, and then blow it up if you get too jumpy.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

About the CC thing, counter CC is underused, for example in the crossup situation you mentioned. If you get hit by stronger hitboxes it obviously doesn't work

 

[Espi]

How should I go about avoiding C4's?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Be in the air and don't get grabbed.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Being in the air isn't necessarily a good tip. It makes you so much slower, and you will get hit more easily by dash attack, f-tilt, grenades or even aerials. You need to spend some time in the air but it shouldn't be one of the first priorities in your gameplan.

 

[Espi]

When I was playing, I was holding shield way too much. Dairs and Up-B pressure was leading to C4's in lot of situations. Using the right OOS options are super important imo.

 

[victinivcreate1]

When I was playing, I was holding shield way too much. Dairs and Up-B pressure was leading to C4's in lot of situations. Using the right OOS options are super important imo.

Oh yeah forgot something VERY important.

1. Don't shield too much vs Snake when he's in the middle of a punish, and be especially wary of this if he has yet to land the sticky on you.

2. Don't be predictable with your platform tech rolls/tech get ups/get up attacks. Rolex, Professor Pro, and all the other Snake mains (including my own Snake) all see you doing the typical get up/tech get up when you land on a platform in tumble animaton, and we just jump up and get a free sticky, then FF down and try to create platform pressure (FH then wavedash down on platform into Cypher or grab/Cypher Up Air Cancels/Platform Cancelled anything) to get you off. When on platforms, just jump off it ASAP. MK has a very severe speed and jump height advantage vs Snake, and he can use L cancelled dair to get down safely as well (just don't fall into a mine loool).

 

[Espi]

I just powershield every mine, but I dunno if it's worth going out of my way to do it.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Just be careful of them. When you die, and you're invincible for that brief period of time, just dash into the mine.

 

[bubbaking]

I generally just buffer rolls OoS when I'm starting to get pressured or hit. MK has pretty fast rolls, but his spot-dodge is kinda crap. I don't really worry about C4's anymore. If you space things correctly, you can pressure Snake very safely without being threatened and push him around the stage. Do not be afraid to grab him around a grenade or mortar. MK has the perfect throws to avoid things: very fast side launchers and a uthrow that just avoids everything on the ground. Being in the air is cool if you are comfortable with edge-cancelling your dairs off plats, including the 'backwards' ones. Snake's greatest strengths are on the ground, so it's hard for him to do anything about MK in the air. The predictable get-up thing on plats that victini mentioned is very true. Rolex usually doesn't go for the instant sticky, but he will generally jump up with a dair that combos into it. That option covers the (maybe purposely) missed tech. I somewhat like to keep the mines around because Snake can be thrown or pushed into them, and they also cut off his options when you start to pressure him around them.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Dropping down some MK ditto knowledge.
CC stuff

1. GSL-8%
2. Down air-26%
3. Dsmash2-34%
4. Bair-41%
5. Dsmash1-44%
6. Nair-51%
7. Ftilt (base hits)-65%
8. Ftilt tippers-78%
9. Dash Attack (8% variant)-81%
10. Dash Attack (7% variant)-92%
11. Down tilt base-95%
12. Dash Attack (6% variant)-105%
13. Dash Attack (weakest one)-Over 200% (always will be CC'able, but the spacing for this tipper dash attack can catch people off guard).

The great thing about GSL in the ditto: Get one grab, and any throw will mean they can no longer CC GSL. And if they don't CC it, free glide attack follow up. 22%. If you already got your grab, a down throw is 30% which means down air is safe on CC (doesn't mean you should use it in MK dittos, its very punishable).

Nair is alright for an approach in the MU, but it gets CC'd until moderate percents and it kinda gets stuffed by other aerials/forward tilt.

Ftilt is decent in the MU, but if you're doing it and you want to avoid getting punished with CC down smash, just hit with the last swipe only. I believe this is MK's most ranged grounded attack.

 

[bubbaking]

MK's ftilt has more range than his fsmash? (O_o)

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

MK's ftilt has more range than his fsmash? (O_o)

There's no way. Fsmash is like longer than Marth's sword in smash 4 lol

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ victinivcreate1
You might overrate CCs. Spacing your nair by MK's great horizontal dash sh momentum/velocity can make it safe. Crossup, autoland and retreating nair are the answer.
I like the list though, gj! (not the only data poster here anymore yay)

 

[victinivcreate1]

There's no way. Fsmash is like longer than Marth's sword in smash 4 lol

Naw. Forward Smash is overrated in terms of range. The pullback (lol auto TearBear) makes it insanely good for spacing but the range is not as amazing as we think. Ftilt 3 has MASSIVE range. Its kinda ridiculous.

@ Chesstiger2612
I have combo data as well, butbits not 100% done, since I haven't tested every type of DI. I Mew2King al thia data out. 98 stock, unlimited time, two MK's and a Fox controller (the fox shoots lasers to get the MK at a certain percent).

If I had dolphin or 3.5, this would be soooo much easier.

 

[Espi]

Random Charge F-Smashes are safe and can catch people sometimes. F-Smash is just God like.

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

Naw. Forward Smash is overrated in terms of range. The pullback (lol auto TearBear) makes it insanely good for spacing but the range is not as amazing as we think. Ftilt 3 has MASSIVE range. Its kinda ridiculous.

Oh ftilt 3, yeah I can sort of see that having slightly longer range. Not quite as good for spacing imo, but still a very good tool to throw out. Although probably not the full 3 hit combo, but still just throwing out the first and second hits can be very good and has less starting lag than fsmash.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Naw. Forward Smash is overrated in terms of range. The pullback (lol auto TearBear) makes it insanely good for spacing but the range is not as amazing as we think. Ftilt 3 has MASSIVE range. Its kinda ridiculous.

@ Chesstiger2612
I have combo data as well, butbits not 100% done, since I haven't tested every type of DI. I Mew2King al thia data out. 98 stock, unlimited time, two MK's and a Fox controller (the fox shoots lasers to get the MK at a certain percent).

If I had dolphin or 3.5, this would be soooo much easier.

You can always ask me to frametest certain things I have got Dolphin and also the PSAs which are useful sometimes.

 

[bubbaking]

Can't you just use training mode so that it's easy to control %?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

What should I do against G&W, should I just take Marth to big stages or where (having doubts in my head) where should I take ivy, what Di options do I have for her down throw And what are the up b setups for Ivy and how do I Di them so I don't get hit by it?

Tournament Saturday

 

[victinivcreate1]

What should I do against G&W, should I just take Marth to big stages or where (having doubts in my head) where should I take ivy, what Di options do I have for her down throw And what are the up b setups for Ivy and how do I Di them so I don't get hit by it?

Tournament Saturday

One grab, do any throw other than down throw. GSL will no longer be CC'able by GW. If you know you can regrab, then down throw first, regrab down throw again. Look out for that huge nair hitbox that GW has. His bair has a landing hitbox so on shield make sure you time your OoS option properly or you'll get hit.

Marth just make him whiff something and punish. That being said Marth is looking for you to do the same. Juggle him is free, he has no combo breaker. Big stages work to fight Marth, but they may hinder your KO power as well.

For Ivy, I can't really speak, but I know that when you're outside her dtilt range, she's in your Forward IDC range. Probably your boost grab range too. I have no clue about the down throw, but I tend to DI down and away and it seems to work.

 

[GuruKid]

You generally want to DI Ivysaur's Down Throw down and away but do note that Up Throw is a DI trap for Dthrow (the optimal DI for one throw is very bad for the other) so if they're catching on to your DI habit then they'll attempt Uthrows into juggles or UpB. For Uthrow you generally want to DI behind Ivy and slightly upward. But at high percents Uthrow/Dthrow to UpB is guaranteed against MK.

Bigger stages have worked well for me vs Marth generally, yeah. Your KO power will be weakened, sure, but... you're also MetaKnight, a gimp god. So go for gimps and edgeguards!

Can't comment much on the G&W matchup since I hardly have any experience against him, unfortunately.

In other news, a previously unknown local Link player (13 years old, mind you!) by the name of Aklo spanked a bunch of established players in the NY/NJ region at Crossfire 4, including me, Frozen, JohnNumbers and Emukiller (in winners). He beat us all very solidly before being sent to losers by M2K (in a close set). The matches sadly weren't recorded but he pulled some big upsets for sure. His zoning and patience with boomerang, bombs, zair and even arrow were too good. Even when playing Aklo in friendlies as MK I felt helpless to find a plausible workaround around it (shielding could only do so much in closing distance vs Link's keepaway, especially Boomerang). I'm nearly lost on how to go about this matchup as MK and I haven't seen any good footage of MK vs Link on the interwebs... might just have to find a legit secondary to CP the character.

Projectiles make me a sad bat.

 

[Espi]

Yea, Links projectiles really mess up MK. Makes it hard to approach.

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

Speaking of projectiles, have we talked about Samus yet? I feel like Meta Knight has a really hard time approaching and comboing her except with up airs to up b really. How do you usually work around her projectiles?

Sorry if this was already talked about, just point me to the page if that's the case please lol

 

[Espi]

Speaking of projectiles, have we talked about Samus yet? I feel like Meta Knight has a really hard time approaching and comboing her except with up airs to up b really. How do you usually work around her projectiles?

Sorry if this was already talked about, just point me to the page if that's the case please lol

Personally, I can power-shield 90% of missiles (both kinds) so I find those pretty easy to deal with. But I guess some general advice would be staying air born, avoiding grabs at all costs (I find that Samus can get large amounts of damage of one grab on MK), and safe edgeguarding. Like go for a back air or Nair when its safe. Also PLEASE BAN Pokemon Stadium 2.

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

Oh yeah that reminds me, Samus can missile spam on PS2, what other stages can she do that on? I've had someone do it pretty well on Warioware I remember, but I don't think it has the "perfect" platform height like PS2. What other stages can she do that on?

 

[bubbaking]

PS2 actually doesn't have perfect platform height. That height would be YS' and PS1's plats (slightly lower), and I belive WW's plats are actually closer to that than PS2's. Samus gets messed up by chars with good grab games like MK, and she's also extremely susceptible to juggling. It also helps that MK has a great vertical KO move.

I've played against Aklo's brother, Vidiot, at a previous Crossfire/Warzone before. I managed to edge out a victory there, but he was also a solid Link. Approaching is hard, but MK has to also play the patience game. Stage choice is very important. I think it's very important that MK have high platforms around that he can use to avoid projectiles. Link is great at covering the space in front of him with 'rangs and arrows and the space directly above him with bombs, but as I mentioned earlier, there is a blind spot. He has a hard time (most projectile chars do) covering the spot diagonally above and in front of him, the very angle from which MK can divestab. You kinda have to camp that angle in a position from which Link can't reach you with nair or his other aerials. You then react to commitments with divestab. You also want to dive at his head so that, if you hit his shield, you cross him up and avoid punishment. This also makes it easier to catch jumps and punish whiffed aerials and stuff. MK can camp in that position with his multiple jumps, but having a high platform to roost on makes it much easier and lets MK abort if he needs to. It also affords him more mobility so that he can get into a good position more easily.

MK with platforms is a pretty scary defensive terror, even though offensive MK is no slouch either.

Good luck with finding a secondary character, but it may be hard to find one that's good against Link, seeing as how he's one of the 9 so-called 'gods' of this game (Mewtwo, Diddy, Link, Pit, Fox, MK, Lucas, Mario, Sonic). Wasn't Diddy already your secondary? (O_o)

If you're looking for footage, it's old but there's Plup vs Internet Explorer, although I'm not sure if IE is using current optimal Link play.

 

[Bloodcross]

hi, just fought a mewtwo for the first time in my life.

what do?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

hi, just fought a mewtwo for the first time in my life.

what do?

What happened when you cursed the land?

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

up b kills at like -17% on mewtwo that's all i know lol

and nair is good, have fun

 

[Chesstiger2612]

up b kills at like -17% on mewtwo that's all i know lol

and nair is good, have fun

I guess if you fight at -%s your up-attacks will spike

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

I guess if you fight at -%s your up-attacks will spike

Yes, but they spike through the stage and they don't get KO'd at the bottom blast zone, they go all the way around until they reach the top one and die there

 

[Bloodcross]

I'm serious. What's a good approach in the mewtwo matchup?

Somebody be useful...