Metaknights's Matchup Discussion

[bubbaking]

What's crazy is I think after you refresh your jumps, you still have aerial IDC or DC in general as an option.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

In general I'm not a fan of this option, but I definitely see its advantages in the Zelda matchup specifically. Zelda's high Din cooldown doesn't really allow for any frame advantage positional advantages leading to possible conversions... In some cases, the MK has to find the point where they get sloppy and land->dash->grab or something else, because closing distance over the air is optimized, but approaching from above isn't. Normally MK's options are good enough to force some kind of retreat when they try to avoid risk, which grants you the landing.
Difficulties can be if you cape before they Din and then they actually follow your cape and catch you in the reappearing animation, so I'm a supporter of using it (against Zelda) not as general approach plan, but as common and quick reaction you should be prepared for.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

What are some down b setups against falcon?

 

[ConeZ]

So I have recently picked up Metaknight as a secondary for Wario, and I mostly plan on using him in a few specific matchups like Fox and Marth, so I was wondering if I could get some neat tricks for those matchups in particular.

Also I did not play much Melee, so I still don't know correct DI and whatnot for Marth's throws and stuff.

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

Be careful of Marth's low percent throws on MK. He can regrab like 3 or 4 times and tipper fsmash or get a lot of easy follow ups with inproper DI. I have not taken the time to figure out a perfect plan for this situation, but @ Chesstiger2612 might, so just wait for him to respond.

On a positive note though, MK has an easy trick for punishing a badly sweetspotted up b to the ledge with Marth with death at almost any percent. You just stand a little away from the ledge and do an IDC (c-sicked down b, just in case you didn't know, unlikely but whatever) forward. This way you avoid getting hit by the sword and most likely kill the Marth. Not very viable at high levels of play I would imagine but it's just something quick that popped into my head.

That's just 2 quick things, not the whole matchup obviously lol, one general thing I can think of is that MK juggles and combos Marth pretty well and gets good down throw follow ups. But yeah theres some neat tricks like you asked for, I'll think of more later maybe.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

So I have recently picked up Metaknight as a secondary for Wario, and I mostly plan on using him in a few specific matchups like Fox and Marth, so I was wondering if I could get some neat tricks for those matchups in particular.

Also I did not play much Melee, so I still don't know correct DI and whatnot for Marth's throws and stuff.

To be honest man, fox vs mk is rough. Marth isn't to bad for mk tho.

 

[GuruKid]

I feel like Marth and Fox are decent for MK actually. Fox can blow MK up extremely well off an opening but MK can do just as much damage right back off one combo, or once they get the opponent offstage. Marth is all about taking your time and understanding the spacing game. Don't interpret this as me saying he's an easy character to play but MK is just one of those character that can do well with good, simple smash fundamentals: understanding spacing, range and edgeguarding will get MK players very far because he just benefits greatly from having a solid grasp on Smash (fighter) mechanics. Kinda like Sheik and Marth.

 

[bubbaking]

I feel that MK:Fox is a slight disadvantage for MK, but yeah, it's not too bad. MK can tech-chase Fox pretty hard actually, and at mid-high %'s, you can even react extremely late and still catch all his techs with dash attacks to knock him back down. You just really have to be wary of MK's susceptibility to CCing at neutral, 'cause Fox can CC most of MK's moves into usmash or waveshine usmash.

 

[AlmightySo]

Be careful of Marth's low percent throws on MK. He can regrab like 3 or 4 times and tipper fsmash or get a lot of easy follow ups with inproper DI. I have not taken the time to figure out a perfect plan for this situation, but @ Chesstiger2612 might, so just wait for him to respond.

On a positive note though, MK has an easy trick for punishing a badly sweetspotted up b to the ledge with Marth with death at almost any percent. You just stand a little away from the ledge and do an IDC (c-sicked down b, just in case you didn't know, unlikely but whatever) forward. This way you avoid getting hit by the sword and most likely kill the Marth. Not very viable at high levels of play I would imagine but it's just something quick that popped into my head.

That's just 2 quick things, not the whole matchup obviously lol, one general thing I can think of is that MK juggles and combos Marth pretty well and gets good down throw follow ups. But yeah theres some neat tricks like you asked for, I'll think of more later maybe.

If marth isnt sweetspotting the ledge just stand close to the ledge and f smash. This works against alot of characters lol.

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

If marth isnt sweetspotting the ledge just stand close to the ledge and f smash. This works against alot of characters lol.

That doesn't work against Marth though because his sword goes through the stage and hits you, that's why for him and Roy IDC is the equivalent of that option.

 

[Ahenobarbus]

If marth isnt sweetspotting the ledge just stand close to the ledge and f smash. This works against alot of characters lol.

Yeah you just have to space so that the very tip of fsmash extends over the ledge

 

[AlmightySo]

That doesn't work against Marth though because his sword goes through the stage and hits you, that's why for him and Roy IDC is the equivalent of that option.

No it works mk's fmash hits under the stage lmao.

 

[victinivcreate1]

GSL is probably the best move for edgeguarding tethers.

Stand right on ledge.

When they pull up, GSL. Hits under you and it hits pretty far in front of you.

I've gotten stage spikes like this XD

 

[AlmightySo]

GSL is probably best move for edgeguarding tethers.

Stand right on ledge.

When they pull up, GSL. Hits under you and it hits pretty far in front of you.

I've gotten stage spikes like this XD

GSL?

 

[9bit]

GSL?

I'm assuming it's Grounded Shuttle Loop, but that might not be right, I'm just speculating

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I need to check the MK boards more often, so much to write

@ ConeZ
I will talk about the DIs:
First it is important to know where Marth will probably throw you. I do have a post about it, here you go:

So to get a bit more into details:
All of Marth's throws have weight-dependent throw release points, so you will have bigger frame advantages against light characters generally.
Up-throw has three main uses:
Up-throw is great to followup with a regrab (spacies only), up-tilt, and basically anything you can get from mid %s in.
That combo component is stronger against characters that are falling faster and are lighter basically. It works best between 20-40% (then also on average fallspeed), above and under that only if the criteria are fulfilled to a higer extent.
Up-throw is a kill move at really high %s (generally around 200%), you don't want to rely on it though.
Up-throw can lead to positional advantages if you fight a character having a bad landing. Your idea is basically to wait for them trying to land and then catch them with up-tilt/up-air. Works best against characters who have problems covering the space under them (Peach and many others to a lesser extent) or having bad horizontal mobility in the air (Snake, Lucario). Punishing landing is easier if platforms don't play a role or are away completely.

Forward-throw:
Use it as DI trap together with down-throw on light, floaty characters. Regrabs at low %, any move you can get (mainly fair and nair) at mid %s. Often you can also get an aerial followup or even a pivot/WD f-smash as kill setup.
At the ledge: Forward-throw-> Dash (really short) ->short hop -> dair works on a lot of characters, mainly those with less or average fallspeed.
Positioning: There are a few characters you can't really get any followups against, which are heavy, floaty characters (Samus, Charizard). Use the forward throw to bring them closer to the edge. Positioning instead of going for a combo which will miss can be really important, this kind of use is still underrated. The f- and d- throw positioning is better if they feel uncomfortable at the edge (bad recovery (?)), you can't combo on them (or at least not at theses percents), and they don't have a big problem with landing.

Down-throw:
Mainly the same as f-throw (DI trap), but with less followups. Use it when you DI trap and they expect the f-throw.
Positioning factor stays the same (if you are closer to the edge with the back, down-throw is your positioning tool).

Back-throw:
Really situational, similar to down-throw. Sometimes prefered in edgeguarding situations over the d-throw but generally your worst throw.

Now the best DI for the forward-throw is always down and away. For the down and back-throw it generally is DI in (perspective before the throw: so you get sent further). For the up-throw mixups and techs on platforms are preferred, Marth will get an up-tilt and you gotta make sure that you DI that one in a way there are less combos.
Because it also kind of works against the up-throw, in most situations you want to DI down+away. The little benefit Marth gets from predicting your DI if he up-throws is not as bad for you as if you DI'd in an other direction and he did the f-throw, which would have caused a guaranteed f-smash.
Hope that helps

@ MegaAmoonguss
Edgeguarding Marth in general is a bit tricky. The thing is that if you hold the edge, out of intangibility, you can't react on his up-b and will get hit. I'd recommend to stand next to the edge (facing the stage, not the edge), and using your WD back to grab the edge. You want to tilt the directional stick down (so you would CC the non-sweetspotted up-b and punish). Now you can mix in the WD back when you think that he won't up-b right now. If you do it too early, your intangibility might not be enough to keep Marth from getting to the ledge, if you do it too late, you get hit as you are WDing back.
While this is generally a guessing game, you can turn it into your favour if you do the WD back after Marth side-bs because then he has a window in which he can't up-b. It also helps learning the haxdash if you already grabbed the ledge and he then side-bs, because you need to refresh intangibility and other ways are generally too slow.

@ victinivcreate1
Thanks for the tip, I will make sure to test it. I was only using nair from the edge and while this works in many cases, there are also a lot of exceptions. I think it also might work to use an aerial shuttle loop from under the stage (facing the dropzone) which ledgecancels so you can combo the loop hitbox into an aerial but it is really hard and SD-intensive.

@ AlmightySo
I feel the f-smash edgeguards are not that efficient. You can get a few recoveries where you can do it when they don't have the opportunity to sweetspot any more, like Link up-bing too close to the ledge. It is somehow a Brawl relic that just isn't as efficient any more. I think that is partly the fault of the players using it (if you charge it too early they will choose the sweetspot option and now you don't have the time to grab the ledge), but partly also the fault of the f-smash edgeguard itself. There are few situations where it isn't better to grab the ledge immediately or to threaten it by standing next to it, facing the stage.

@ Hinichii.ez.™
If you avoid an aerial against Falcon physically you often have the opportunity for a down-b, but the setups are very technical (mostly pivot down-b or run-cancel turnaround down-b). You sometimes have possibilities to use it in edgeguards, but there are normally better options. If Falcon tries making his shield pressure safe only by spacing (with unsafe moves by timing), like a nair where the 2nd hit hits pretty early and not close to landing, you can get down-Bs OoS. In fact, in this case it is the best available option.

 

[bubbaking]

About edgeguarding Marth, these are all nice strats, but I would think that an inwards facing, outwards shifting IDC would be best, especially because of the ease with which MK can snap to the ledge afterwards. Before I go into detail, make sure you read the IDC guide in the sub-forum; that info is godly helpful. In any case, when Marth starts to approach that distance from which he can sweetspot with upB, you should DC and shift out over the ledge (C-stick towards offstage) but come out facing the ledge (control stick towards the center of the stage). Unless Marth makes it over the ledge, this should stage-spike him. Make sure you start doing this before Marth reaches that sweetspot distance. That way, if he delays, you can grab the ledge and go for a normal ledgehog.

In any case, there are probably a lot of ways with which Marth could be successfully edgeguarded.

GSL is probably best move for edgeguarding tethers.

Stand right on ledge.

When they pull up, GSL. Hits under you and it hits pretty far in front of you.

I've gotten stage spikes like this XD

MK is already in a good spot for edgeguarding tethers, what with his multiple jumps, long-lasting nair, far-reaching bair, and reverse ASL. Didn't know that GSL hits under the ledge, though...

If Falcon tries making his shield pressure safe only by spacing (with unsafe moves by timing), like a nair where the 2nd hit hits pretty early and not close to landing, you can get down-Bs OoS. In fact, in this case it is the best available option.

I think you can also punish this with upB OoS which will combo into glide attack and/or other aerials at low and mid %'s. At high %'s where you could just kill, DC OoS is prob the best option.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I agree. DC OoS also has slightly more range too though so there are realistic cases where it would be the only available guaranteed punish

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

Woah, that's a sick idea, I've got to try that next Marth I face!

 

[CyberZixx]

How do metaknight players feel MK does vs Ike?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

How do metaknight players feel MK does vs Ike?

Ike is pretty easy for mk imo.

 

[CyberZixx]

Ike is pretty easy for mk imo.

Interesting. Why do you think that is?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Ike has pretty slow OoS, problems with close pressure and nair edgeguards him very effectively.

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

And you can get sick up air and down throw combos at like any percent. And if he's at a high enough percent (like 120 maybe? I'm not quite sure), a back throw near the ledge will gimp him, it's like the easiest kill ever if you can fake them out and get a pivot grab.

 

[CyberZixx]

Nice. So with the nair edgeguard, do you often just jump out and nair ike while he quick draws? Does it work well vs up b?

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

For quick draw it kind of depends, if you can catch them out of the quick draw if they're too far away to attack with it and grab the ledge, and it's pretty free although sometimes hard to be in that situation, but if you're right by it you're usually just better off just grabbing ledge and punishing if they go on the stage. In general versus Ike I just try to get off stage as quick as possible anyways.

For up b though, I find it actually really annoying to edgeguard personally. It's not like Marth or Roy where they have a period of falling in helplessness before grabbing the ledge, Ike has a hitbox out until the very last frame (as a big one at that). What I usually go for is just try to run off the edge and do a falling nair as fast as possible to hit them before they start the up b. But if they manage to start it, I don't think you can really hit them out of it because of his sword's range. I could be wrong though, there's probably better ways of going about it tbh. Wait for other people to respond too.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I think the best option against Ike's up b is to find the right time to grab the edge and ledge roll. If you have the timing, he can never up b and expect to grab the ledge.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Edgeguard Ike

Step 1. Learn haxdashing

2. Spam hax dashing when you force him to recover.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Hax dash.. It's like, non-existing in PM.
I don't think PM players got that kinda tech skill and or lazyness.

That would destroy the up b tho

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

Does MK even have a hax dash? That would be sick random tech lol

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Does MK even have a hax dash? That would be sick random tech lol

If he does, we need to know how many frames, he has at his disposal as well.

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

I feel like by the way he jumps and falls, he might not be able to, and if he can then he probably doesn't have many frames at his disposal. Is anyone good at TAS stuff here?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I feel like by the way he jumps and falls, he might not be able to, and if he can then he probably doesn't have many frames at his disposal. Is anyone good at TAS stuff here?

Once debug is available to is all, we can just find out for ourselves.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Hax dash.. It's like, non-existing in PM.
I don't think PM players got that kinda tech skill and or lazyness.

That would destroy the up b tho

Ive done a few when messing around with Falcon, it definitely exists.

Thing is most "pro" PM players are relatively lacking when compared to top Brawl, Melee and 64 players (there are several exceptions to this rule however) and don't use tech really. Just spam the most broken thing and get one roll read and kill, rinse n' repeat.
I'm pretty certain that MK's wavedash is longer than Falcon's, that being said, there are other factors that create a successful haxdash (falling speed, dj height, speed of inputs, probably etc).

How can I get TAS for PM actually? Do I need Dolphin or something?

 

[Thor]

Just spam the most broken thing and get one roll read and kill, rinse n' repeat.

SWEDISH SNIPER!!!

Sorry I totally read that and thought Pit arrows and then... never mind.

Armada's really good, I'm not dissing his skill or anything either, just that it's funny you talk about people spamming broken stuff when so many people I know are like "You could get good at the game, or you could just play Pit."

 

[victinivcreate1]

SWEDISH SNIPER!!!

Sorry I totally read that and thought Pit arrows and then... never mind.

Armada's really good, I'm not dissing his skill or anything either, just that it's funny you talk about people spamming broken stuff when so many people I know are like "You could get good at the game, or you could just play Pit."

Players who have established themselves in other games (ZeRo, NinjaLink, JohnNumbers in Brawl/Mew2King, Armada, Sethlon, in Melee,etc) are not the "weak" players. Heck even Emukiller is decent, wasn't he the netplay god?

We have rising PM players yes, but the thing is, they're taking tournaments and they lack really strong fundamentals. I find it odd that X player of without doing much work. I have heard a lot of people say that they have tried out 3.5 and it is a lot less autocombo easy, more difficult to use/less free recoveries, and less free neutral games, and more focused on strong fundamentals like Melee. So my complaints about this will soon wither away.

 

[Thor]

Players who have established themselves in other games (ZeRo, NinjaLink, JohnNumbers in Brawl/Mew2King, Armada, Sethlon, in Melee,etc) are not the "weak" players. Heck even Emukiller is decent, wasn't he the netplay god?

We have rising PM players yes, but the thing is, they're taking tournaments and they lack really strong fundamentals. I find it odd that X player of without doing much work. I have heard a lot of people say that they have tried out 3.5 and it is a lot less autocombo easy, more difficult to use/less free recoveries, and less free neutral games, and more focused on strong fundamentals like Melee. So my complaints about this will soon wither away.

That's why I said Armada is amazing.

He's undoubtably in the top 3 of best Melee players in the world. It's just that I know so many people say Pit is broken (arrows) and... wait I already explained this.

I should look for JohnNumbers. Emukiller was at some point on a PR somewhere as a Marth in Melee I believe [I don't remember where].

I know so many people who are just like "I play Mario" because they find him super simple though, I see your point for sure (some people I know who won't play PM at Smashfests unless it's the only option will enter PM if a few local big fish aren't there because they'll just pick Mario and get pretty far, which is amusing).

 

[bubbaking]

Emukiller is a pretty good Melee player. He is currently ranked on the Tristate PR, and he has been since February. I'd say he's at a higher level than Sethlon in Melee.

And you can get sick up air and down throw combos at like any percent. And if he's at a high enough percent (like 120 maybe? I'm not quite sure), a back throw near the ledge will gimp him, it's like the easiest kill ever if you can fake them out and get a pivot grab.

He'll have to be a lot higher than 120%, because DI is a thing. MK's bthrow is a great launcher, but it's not a kill throw.

For quick draw it kind of depends, if you can catch them out of the quick draw if they're too far away to attack with it and grab the ledge, and it's pretty free although sometimes hard to be in that situation, but if you're right by it you're usually just better off just grabbing ledge and punishing if they go on the stage. In general versus Ike I just try to get off stage as quick as possible anyways.

MK can just quickly RAR to grab the ledge and then use his invincibility in a ledgehop nair (easier) or bair (optimal).

For up b though, I find it actually really annoying to edgeguard personally. It's not like Marth or Roy where they have a period of falling in helplessness before grabbing the ledge, Ike has a hitbox out until the very last frame (as a big one at that). What I usually go for is just try to run off the edge and do a falling nair as fast as possible to hit them before they start the up b. But if they manage to start it, I don't think you can really hit them out of it because of his sword's range. I could be wrong though, there's probably better ways of going about it tbh. Wait for other people to respond too.

Ike's Aether is annoying, but it's not as difficult to stop as you might think. If he doesn't perfectly sweetspot (meaning he's not really hitting anything above the ledge), you can outspace and punish it with fsmash. More useful, though, is the fact that Ike's back is completely open when he throws up his sword. You can actually go far down offstage and bair behind and/or below Ike for the stage spike, although you have to watch out for Ikes who are willing to fight offstage if they have walls to stall with. You can also knock him out of the apex of his Aether in this manner, and I believe you can even hit him out of the move from the front if you space properly with bair (or again, use you ledge invincibility to hit him). If you're not comfortable with bair far below the ledge, you can also just beat him out with fair or nair for the gimp.

I think the best option against Ike's up b is to find the right time to grab the edge and ledge roll. If you have the timing, he can never up b and expect to grab the ledge.

This will only work if Ike is forced to recover very low and sweetspot. If he has time to fall a bit while under the ledge (basically if he is any higher than his sweetspot distance) and/or he still has his DJ, he can chase you off the ledge with the threat of an early upB, and unless you are above 100%, you can't really outlast Aether at this point. This method works against Marth and Roy somewhat, but not really against Ike. There's also the fact that many stages have plenty of walls for Ike to stall with and recover from distances he wouldn't normally survive.

 

[victinivcreate1]

This is probably my bias speaking, but I think Sethlon is around the ranks of the near-Melee gods (Hax, Leffen, Shroomed, Axe, Westballz, etc). Thing is he plays a significantly worse character than these players, Roy. If Sethlon played say, Marth or Fox or kept working on his new Sheik, I think he'd be a much more dangerous player. Sethlon to me is a more extreme case of Hax syndrome. The player skill is there, the character is holding you back.

Think about it though. Roy is probably on the lower end of mid tier in Project M 3.02, and he has an extremely lousy recovering and has a (relative to the rest of the cast, particularly the top tiers ) difficult time edgeguarding safely. Yet this lone Roy player is out literally destroying people. Sethlon has won multiple tournaments, placed 4th at LTC and 3rd at LTC2, 5th at APEX 2014, 7th at SKTAR, and 2nd at WHOBO MLG. 3.5 is going to nerf recoveries and try to minimize the autocombos, so Sethlon will likely have an even easier time playing. If 3.5 releases before APEX 2015, and if he attends it, I can see him making top 3 easily.

Of course this has nothing to do with MK. Hmm, what if Sethlon picked up MK? Then'd he'd be insane amirite?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ Hinichii.ez.™
@ victinivcreate1
@ MegaAmoonguss
Meta Knight has a haxdash, although it is not fully intangible. I believe I posted about it already a few months ago but here it is:
There are lots of ways that bring in a ledgegrabbable position in 30 frames which is needed to have a PM-optimized haxdash (all frames intangible but one).
Here is one way:
Frame 1-5 Press down
Frame 6 Press forward, jump
Frame 7-17 Down and slightly backwards, press shield to air doge
Frame 20 Collsion with the stage
Frame 21 Slide off the stage
Around frame 25 regrab

I like this one because you don't need to do the drop from the ledge frame perfect which produces the socalled "tournament winners" frequently, pressing forward and then jump can also be split for making it easier to enter JumpAerialF animation. All in all you have 5 leniency frames.