Metaknights's Matchup Discussion

[Lawn Chair]

VIDEO MU GUIDES TO BE UPLOADED

 

[Run DMX]

THANK YOUUUUUU for making this. I think I can help with the following MUs at some point, just gimme a holler if you want me to write some up.
- Mario, Zelda, Ike, Fox, Falcon, Snake, Marth

 

[Smaggles]

Does anyone have suggestions for Samus? If I try to be patient with her I just take missiles spammed at me and charged shots, but if I rush in I'll just run face first into power bombs. Only good way to approach her is to catch her off guard with forward b's and dimensional capes, and those aren't always available options especially if the field has lots of power bombs on it.

 

[Lawn Chair]

Does anyone have suggestions for Samus? If I try to be patient with her I just take missiles spammed at me and charged shots, but if I rush in I'll just run face first into power bombs. Only good way to approach her is to catch her off guard with forward b's and dimensional capes, and those aren't always available options especially if the field has lots of power bombs on it.

Forward B approach come on man! Let me hit you with some knowledge. 29 frames of ending lag on Forward B, Dimension capes... Are you kidding me. You want to grab Samus and uair her forever and ever work off your grabs into air combos you beat her in air vs air so keep her flying.

 

[Smaggles]

Forward B approach come on man! Let me hit you with some knowledge. 29 frames of ending lag on Forward B, Dimension capes... Are you kidding me. You want to grab Samus and uair her forever and ever work off your grabs into air combos you beat her in air vs air so keep her flying.

Getting into grab range is my problem, if I get that close I just take a couple power bombs to the face. My friend is very active with power bombs and will lay them down almost non stop, I feel like I'm playing touhou when he plays samus. I'm relatively new to smash, I haven't been taking the game serious for very long so I'm probably missing something basic, but I can't figure it out. Keeping pressure is just too hard to do.

 

[Kaysick]

Vs : Keep him off the ground at all times. His ground game is better than MK, especially with the amount of armor he has. I would pop him up with a nice dair and uair him to oblivion to wrack up easy %s. Bair is another good way to get him towards the side of the stage if needed. Be wary about his JC DownB, he can pop up very high and if he misses, try to combo it since he's already in the air.

 

[Lawn Chair]

Vs : Keep him off the ground at all times. His ground game is better than MK, especially with the amount of armor he has. I would pop him up with a nice dair and uair him to oblivion to wrack up easy %s. Bair is another good way to get him towards the side of the stage if needed. Be wary about his JC DownB, he can pop up very high and if he misses, try to combo it since he's already in the air.

Nice example

 

[Kaysick]

Nice example

Thanks, I played against a friend who plays a good Bowser. Was getting beat pretty bad at first, but I was still getting the hang of MK yesterday. Near the end of the night, was noticing what was good against him and capitalized on it.

 

[Run DMX]

I'd be helping out more with this thread, but frankly, I don't think I've played any character enough to have an absolute clear idea on what MK has to do to beat each character. It's either a result of me not playing enough or the game is just too young for something like that. I dunno.

 

[Lawn Chair]

I'm getting a capture card soon I will TRY to stream, if I can't I will record Metaknight tuts

 

[Chesstiger2612]

We could discuss the MK matchups. Didn't want to fill it out yet, we need to discuss first.

 

[sneakytako]

I think most MU's boil down to how well MK can bait a whiff move, and run in and punish.

For instance Bowser, while most of our approaches are shut down by his CC, we can bait up-b, ftilt, dtilt, etc and run in and grab. From there, keep him in the air and juggle the bejesus out of him. When hes on the edge, shield just out of his jump up and side-b range, roll away if your shield gets low enough for getup attack to shield poke. His nair has super armor, so avoid going in too hard when you have him in the air, space your fairs/upairs accordingly.

How does everyone think MK does against spacies?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Probably very slighty advantegous... MK can gimp all off them easily but they can pressure MK really well.

 

[alphabattack]

Does anyone have any tips on the MK vs Lucas Matchup? I have trouble with that one, especially because of the SH'd PK Freezes

 

[sneakytako]

We blow up lucas's recovery, make sure you can punish any zair tether attempts with nair or bair.

Defensively you need to learn to DI/SDI his combos, he can really rack on % quickly if you react poorly. Generally you want to DI his dthrow behind him, it will avoid upsmash but get hit by bair or nair. Dair on stage you need to SDI that up, or else you have to eat a techase when you get spiked on stage.

PK freeze is annoying, it has a lot of hitstun that leads to grabs generally. Either you want to stay close enough to hit on start up because it takes a while to come out, or you want to stay at above the SH PK freeze height so he doesn't hit you into other stuff. Or you can be amazing and PS into nair or grab depending on what kind of momentum they have.

Generally I feel like upthrow can lead to better tech chases at early percents until around 50, the primary goal is to knock him off the stage and gimp him with bair or nair.

 

[sneakytako]

Getting into grab range is my problem, if I get that close I just take a couple power bombs to the face. My friend is very active with power bombs and will lay them down almost non stop, I feel like I'm playing touhou when he plays samus. I'm relatively new to smash, I haven't been taking the game serious for very long so I'm probably missing something basic, but I can't figure it out. Keeping pressure is just too hard to do.

I would guess that your problem is that you're not dash dancing enough to bait out his moves. One of MK's main strengths is his mobility on the ground, baiting out things like dsmash/fair/nair/bombs lead to grabs/ftilts/dsmashes depending on whether you think they will CC. I would work on your dash dance/wavedashes and you will see a significant ease in approaching samus.

The scariest thing about samus I think is nair, it hits pretty hard pretty fast so I generally like to back off my followups if I'm not sure I can make it in time. Being on the ground against a slow moving aerial character is just too easy to nair/bair/grab or w/e I want.

Also, like the lucas MU get good at bair/nair to stop her tether recovery. She's limited in the height that she can tether, bair pretty much covers the entire area she can tether and almost ensures a stock if it's not dreamland.

 

[9bit]

What do you guys think about Snake?

Snake seems to be a good weight (and size) for us to combo, and we're pretty quick and able to get in his face a lot of the time. MK does multiple jumps to sorta help avoid some traps, and doesn't die off the top incredibly fast because of the fast-falling thing. Still pretty fast though.

But how about Snake's chain grabs, does he have them on MK? Is it hard for MK to deal with Snake camping or projectiles?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Snake has good chaingrabs against MK and his combos into C4 and fair work well in this MU. Snake has bad horizontal aerial movement though, techchase him as much as possible and deny his landing. Just one up-air can lead into ~5 more up-airs, because although they aren't guaranteed, Snake will never get out of his bad spot after a juggle started.
About camping, it shouldn't be too hard to deal with. Airdodge into grenades is solid (normally you don't have time to throw them) and MK is used to more annoying projectiles than Snake's arsenal. You are in the air often so won't get tranquilized that often. The hardest thing against Snake is if he goes for grenades if you camp and otherwise crouches if you go in grounded and shields if you go in airbourne. Then you need mindgames and fakeouts, so for example dashdance, airstall -> dair if he drops the shield, nair and so on...
I think the matchup is around even, but probably slightly in MK's favor because he exploits Snake's weakness (bad air control and slow aerials) to the maximum. Snake's punishes are rough enough and his neutral game is also as good as yours in the MU so its just a slight advantage

 

[sneakytako]

The purpose of the grenades is to force you to shield. His optimal gameplan is to CG you, the grenades are mainly to keep you in one spot and grab you. Don't pick up grenades, like chess says stay in the air. I would avoid grenades rather than trying to use them against snake.

The gameplan for us is to get him off the ground, hes utterly helpless when we juggle him. Stay mobile and punish his mistakes, I wouldn't go in too hard on snake because he can 0-death MK with one grab. Also, his ftilt is his main punish move, with practice you can DI the first hit behind him and he will whiff the second hit.

 

[9bit]

Yoooo let's fill this thing out guys! Not much action since @ Chesstiger2612 posted the big chart.

Since watching Showdown @ Xanadu I've been thinking about the Diddy matchup. It seems sorta even and may mostly be stage-dependent. Obviously the projectiles are a problem for MK, but the tech chasing and the grabs vs Diddy are real.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Also an underrated anti-projectile option is crouching with MK. It helps more than one would think. Against bananas and peanuts it helps against most air/AGT throws and also against Pit's arrows at standard height.
The plan is to crouch and if you think it won't hit wait for it to pass and run/dash again which works because of the dash-crouch-dance.
If it would still hit you can still shield (if possible powershield or perfect shield), WD out and continue.

Anyways, discussing a few matchups, I think the Diddy matchup is even. Against anyone, again stages are huge factors but I would give MK following matchups:
All stated is just my opinion.
I will just start with the most popular characters you see in tournaments all the time but on the longrun probably all.
45-55 against Fox because his mobility is even superior, probably campy Fox is the best in the MU. An approaching Fox can be dealt with in multiple ways but approaching for MK is hard. You can only go for grabs and spaced down-tilt if he is shielding, and this gives Fox great defensive resource to run and gun. You do have enough possibilities to get grabs though and if you get those grabs you can keep chasing them. MU, depending on stage, varies between 65-35 Fox on Skyloft and 65-35 MK on WarioWare.
Your best bans are Skyloft, Final Destination and Yoshis Island while you should look for counterpick on WarioWare, Green Hill Zone, Skyworld or Dreamland, depending on his 3 bans.
Falco can't run away that well but his lasers are much more annoying and his combos more dangerous. You can attack his shield easier and for example spaced forward tilts could also work. Falco has a much harder time defending in close combat due to his worse shine range and his higher jumpsquat, also fair on shield can work against him. A proficient MK can deal with the lasers by crouching the higher ones and powershielding the lower ones. If you do it right Falco should also have few possibilities to attack your shield because your anti-approach should be sh fair which keeps him away pretty well. 55-45 for MK would be my guess, ranging between 65-35 Falco on Final Destination and 65-35 MK on Skyworld.
Your bans: FD, Fountain of Dreams and probably PS1 (third ban isn't that clear) while your cps should be Skyworld, Dreamland, GHZ and probably a neutral or Yoshis Island (seems to always favor the char. with more mobility).
Diddy should be 50-50. Has advantages if he gets time to set his stuff up and disadvantages in close combat. I am not too sure about the stages because mobility is around even and you want both a way to force in and something that protects you from his setups. But an important detail is Diddy Kongs forward air which should make you ban very close blast zones. Also your recovery seems a little better than his although Diddys up-b can be annoying. Bans: FD, Yoshis Story, Green Hill Zone (maybe WarioWare instead but the platform setup makes up for it so I think WW is bad in this MU but not banworthy). CPs: Skyworld, Dreamland, Lylat (this one isn't a MK stage normally but hinders his recovery much more than yours, additionaly the platforms can protect from projectiles but aren't really useful for runaway strategies), Battlefield (a neutral but if you compare it to PS2 etc. it is very good here, plus you have nothing better if he bans the 3 others and Smashville helps his recovery)
The Link matchup is a bit tricky but at least even once you got the idea of it. The problem is that MKs weakness are projectiles and Link is the master of projectiles, but edgeguarding Link is not that hard for MK and once Link is in trouble if you always keep outside of his nair hitbox while juggling he has no real forms of escape. You have to be avoiding his projectiles and grab him then. If you surpassed the wall of rang you have to maneouvre at angles where rang doesn't hit. Fourtunately Link's grab is slow so nair on shield is more legit here (you have to mixup between grabbing and avoiding up-B OoS then but it is a slighltly favourable mindgame if you are not at high percent because your juggle will likely be stronger than his punish). Just force him in his shield and do that kind of "threatening silent" pressure where you don't really attack but punish if he does something. I would give MK a 55-45.
Stagewise, I would ban stages where you can't hide, be aware that he does more of a static camp instead of Fox' mobility camp. FD, Skyloft and PS2(protecting platform if he stays under it, doesn't protect you anyhow) /Lylat(if he is under an outer platform you can't hide on the others because of different projectile angles but it even safes him from a. CPs could be WarioWare, Skyworld, Yoshis Island (good protection from the projectiles, also you have the mobility advantage), Smashville (you sacrifice a part of your edgeguarding ability but the platform transports you to Link so safely)
MK mirrors are 50-50 Kappa. Choose a stage you like.

To be continued sooner/later...

 

[Lawn Chair]

I'll stream a MK vs diddy guide

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Look forward to it, please cover especially which combo DI helps most, this is where I could avoid unnecessary percents mostly. Diddys combo game isn't actually that great but I don't have the right DI down yet.

 

[Sol0ke]

I believe that MK vs Bowser weighs in favor of Bowser but I'm not sure by how much

 

[Lawn Chair]

Bowser is heavily defeated by MK, I'll leave that to another stream tho

 

[Lawn Chair]

I think I may stream me reviewing my matches that I posted what do you guys think?

 

[DD_]

I think I may stream me reviewing my matches that I posted what do you guys think?

do etttttt

 

[Lawn Chair]

I'll do it at like 4:00pm est so most people will be back from school and other non sense

 

[Lawn Chair]

Nah **** it doing it now www.twitch.tv/lawn_chairnwo

 

[sneakytako]

How do people deal with squirtle? He's just super annoying to play against, even if you CC his garbage I'm having a lot of trouble actually comboing him. He's too floaty for most of the up-air follow ups, and he pesters you with withdrawal if you go in too hard. Also, his DI traps are annoying.

 

[Lawn Chair]

How do people deal with squirtle? He's just super annoying to play against, even if you CC his garbage I'm having a lot of trouble actually comboing him. He's too floaty for most of the up-air follow ups, and he pesters you with withdrawal if you go in too hard. Also, his DI traps are annoying.

When squirtle is doing his side-b dumb stuff just air camp and punish the cooldown for it, you have chain grab on him iirc

 

[Chesstiger2612]

You need to do many d-tilts (underrated move, although @ Lawn Chair uses it quite well) and d-smashs, because those will hit even if he crouches. Also you can go for more nair on shield than usual, the high shield pushback caused by Squirtle's low traction makes it safe again. Shield pressure is also easier against Squirtle, for example with f-tilt, because Squirtle has a subpar shield size. Remember CCing isn't only a thing used against you but also somethin you can use. In that matchup you will actually benefit heavily from CC->d-smash etc. You can sometimes anti-approach with crouching and mixing in sh fair/nair, the only thing you got to avoid is his grab because that isn't CCable obviously. He has much movement etc. but not the attacks setting it into worth (you outrange him), so you can just d-tilt/smash against his wavedashing and hydroplaning. Moves I would use a bit less than normally are dair (little target), up-smash (works better against bigger opponents) and up-air (I would try to keep combos against Squirtle basic because otherwise he just moves out with his great mobility. If you have benefits from platforms etc. though use it as you normally would in that situation).

 

[sneakytako]

Like, you can CC his withdrawal but you can't nair him before he can fair you. I would try to wavedash forward and look for the whiff to ftilt/dsmash punish him, but it's still super lame when he has you under his pressure. I can deal with most of his approaches by spacing pivot grabs, it's just comboing him that's stupid.

I feel it just becomes a slugfest like brawl, neither character can safely combo the other, but at least we can gimp that stupid turtle.

Do we have enough time to jump away and punish withdrawal? I feel that's kinda sketchy, he can move away once he sees us jump.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Depends on your reaction time but I wouldn't go for jump away punish withdraw is too fast so you won't really catch it unless you see him do it way before.

 

[Bloodcross]

Camp Squirtle to death.

I think Link wins the matchup, but I still haven't figured out that MU yet anyway.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Its definitely a matchup one needs to practice specifically.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

mk Marth plz

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Marth has no combo breaker type move, just juggle him all day.
You need to live long because thats Marth problem. Avoid f-smashes at all cost once you reached the higher %s because that makes the difference between getting tippered at 70% and living up to 150%, you shouldn't care if you get d-tilted/grabbed/etc for avoiding kill moves.
For edgeguards, they are normally a bit harder than the standard edgeguard because you can't really predict when Marth will up-b. If you have enough lege invinc. drop down->(jump depending on height of Marth, if you don't jump you can also risk dieing on the lower blast zones on stages with close bottom blast zones->)nair/bair. Otherwise, dair at the ledge is quite good (you have to time it the way that as soon as Marth enters the stall-kind-of state, then the dair hits and you land on the last centimeters of the stage while he gets spiked. If you do it too early Marths hitbox will outspace you in most cases).
In the neutral game, your shorter initial dash is actually an advantage because of run cancel->d-tilt/f-tilt/d-smash which will keep you from getting grabbed and the d-tilt is even an approach tool if spaced correctly. Otherwise, approaches aren't that easy because aerials on shield will even get grabbed when fading away because of Marths grab range and his grab outranges your grab. Move around in higher air sometimes, landing on platforms and waiting for mistakes, punished mostly by dair.
If you want this principle fought out more aggressive I would advice to use lots of tomahawks/late nairs. You will often get a hit while getting hit barely but the difficult thing is to get in Marths wall.
For this, mostly dashdance while always being prepared for your runcancel stuff (even reversed, thats kind of technical but I am not advising easy but good options) and your chances in neutral game are pretty good because they will probably have to do a commitment or let you in too much which is costly against MK.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

If you had to throw some numbers around, what do you think this MU would be? Maybe 5:5 or 4:6?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

55-45 in favour of Meta Knight I would say. Marth also has some tools