Metaknights's Matchup Discussion

[Chesstiger2612]

Charizard has basically 3 main tools that are good in neutral: Nair, dash grab, and pivot smashes.

If you let Zard come out of his initial dash, he has far more options (run-cancel->any normal) so don't allow him to dash far.

His dash speed is good, but ours is better. The first thing you should think about is shutting down his grab game. Don't over commit, stay patient and out maneuver him with dash dance.

Dash speeds are basically even.

If he does get you with a grab > Dthrow, always think CC, no matter what tech option you guess. It shuts down both the jab reset and dsmash follow ups, and it will help you spot dodge on reaction if you see the grab. Just be wary of Fsmash, you don't want to try and CC that.

Sorry to be nitpicky, but Zard's jab doesn't reset and if it would, you should ASDI + SDI up to be longer in the air than the 13 frame animation so you land normal and not be forced to do normal getup. It isn't resetting though so CC is correct.

The correct DI for seismic toss (upthrow) is up and away, don't DI too far away or you will get knocked at a 45 degree angle and die.

Now with nair, it's a bit tricky. These kinds of huge rotating hitboxes don't really exist in melee, so a lot of people struggle with this kind of hitbox. If he's facing toward you, you optimally want to wait diagonally above him and hit him as he's swinging in the other direction. If he's facing away from you, you aren't going to be able to straight beat that; just sit in shield and OoS nair or grab if he spaces poorly.

Watch his RAR nair approach because with that kind of positioning he gets the early hitbox of the nair.

When he knocks you in the air from the ground, the correct option is often not to immediately jump; charizard can cover very very high with his up-b to fair/u-air. I generally try to DI away and FF nair.

To gimp him, his glide has deceptive range, and it has a lot of KB. You can beat it with either fsmash or up-b, but if you don't feel comfortable with your postion just shield. You can also beat him trying to go for the ledge with a SH low bair.

His up-b hasn't got that much horizontal movement at the start, getting an aerial from the ledge should always be possible.

Lastly, dair is not safe when hes on the ground, even if you cross him up. His up-b is a really strong OoS option, I would not recommend trying to punish whiffed moves with dair, it's not safe on hit or shield.

Nair as much as possible basically.

I hope that helps, that should at least get you started on the MU.

Just adding a few little details

 

[sneakytako]

If he does get you with a grab > Dthrow, always think CC, no matter what tech option you guess. It shuts down both the jab reset and dsmash follow ups, and it will help you spot dodge on reaction if you see the grab. Just be wary of Fsmash, you don't want to try and CC that.

Sorry to be nitpicky, but Zard's jab doesn't reset and if it would, you should ASDI + SDI up to be longer in the air than the 13 frame animation so you land normal and not be forced to do normal getup. It isn't resetting though so CC is correct.

Dude, charizard dthrows, and hits you with jab on missed techs, and grabs you again. That's pretty much a reset.

Also, MK's run speed is just above charizards.

http://smashboards.com/threads/p-m-3-0-statistics-list-shff-speed-weight-falling-speed-etc.335019/

 

[sneakytako]

If he does get you with a grab > Dthrow, always think CC, no matter what tech option you guess. It shuts down both the jab reset and dsmash follow ups, and it will help you spot dodge on reaction if you see the grab. Just be wary of Fsmash, you don't want to try and CC that.

Sorry to be nitpicky, but Zard's jab doesn't reset and if it would, you should ASDI + SDI up to be longer in the air than the 13 frame animation so you land normal and not be forced to do normal getup. It isn't resetting though so CC is correct.

Dude, charizard dthrows, and hits you with jab on missed techs, and grabs you again. That's pretty much a reset.

 

[bubbaking]

That's not really a reset, by Smash terms, but yeah, that kind of is a reset by traditional FG terminology, but getting ANY kind of new combo straight out of an ended one is a 'reset' if we're going there.

Just went 1-1 in bracket sets with John Numbers at a tournament yesterday. Also, Numbers and I have been college-mates for 4 years now, so MK:Zard is one of my most played MUs by far. I actually feel that Zard slightly wins that one. Zard's range makes it pretty hard for MK to get in since Zard can constantly impose on his DD range. Also, MK can't kill Zard reliably until, like, 150% on most stages (180% on the big ones) unless you get a good combo into DC. Meanwhile, Zard combos MK really hard and kills him consistently at around 100% (oftentimes even less).

I also play a ton with Rolex. I would say that MK slightly wins the MU against Snake.

Charizard has basically 3 main tools that are good in neutral: Nair, dash grab, and pivot smashes.

He's got a lot more than that, man. His tilts, Flamethrower, DA, and jab are all great at neutral. That's one of the reasons this MU is so troublesome. You have to run through Zard's effective range before you can even threaten him. MK is faster, so he can take advantage of whiffs, but it's still annoying to deal with all of the range.

When he knocks you in the air from the ground, the correct option is often not to immediately jump; charizard can cover very very high with his up-b to fair/u-air. I generally try to DI away and FF nair.

You mean downB, right?

Lastly, dair is not safe when hes on the ground, even if you cross him up. His up-b is a really strong OoS option, I would not recommend trying to punish whiffed moves with dair, it's not safe on hit or shield.

It's generally safe on hit, especially edge-cancelled and/or at higher %'s.

Nair as much as possible basically.

This is actually a bad idea against good Zards as MK's nair is very CC-able. That and the whole thing can be stuffed with jab. You want to mix it up, really. Nothing MK has other than grab is safe against Zard's CC. Nothing. So you really have to mix it up between attacks and grabs with this MU. What sucks is that MK's follow-up off of grabs are a little lackluster, but dthrow combos into aerials if Zard DIs in or doesn't DI, and it CGs if he DIs away. You can also get DC off it, and if you read DI in, you can also get combos off fthrow.

 

[victinivcreate1]

How would I fight GW, Link, and Ivysaur?

After several months of playing WiFi and thinking I was a decent player (and lag wasn't much of a problem for me in general as I have an all around solid connection with little lag), I went to Nebulous, my first tournament.

In friendlies I played this GW (Wu Tang I think was his tag), and he crushed me pretty hard. How can I beat GW's CC down tilt and whats the best way to DI his combos? Also, how can I deal with the parachute? It seems so powerful and the hitbox is gigantic.

My first actual tournament match was Solaris and I was absolutely clueless on how to approach this Link. Every approach I made got stuffed by an angled Boomerang into X aerial followup. Also, his down throw into dair seems completely guaranteed and free. Completely stuck there.

Then I played some Marth in losers, beat him badly, then was 2-0'd by FS| Darkblues' Ivysaur. It seems near impossible to win neutral vs this character. Power shielding doesn't work on Razor Leaf, and Darkblues was able to outspace me with down tilt, fair, forward tilt, and bair when I tried to play a more patient, slower poke based game. Whats the best way to DI Ivysaur's throws? Best way to DI her neutral and forward aerials? Best way to deal with Razor Leaf? Also, how to deal with forward tilt? It feels so safe on shield. It's like unpunishable.

 

[AlmightySo]

How would I fight GW, Link, and Ivysaur?

After several months of playing WiFi and thinking I was a decent player (and lag wasn't much of a problem for me in general as I have an all around solid connection with little lag), I went to Nebulous, my first tournament.

In friendlies I played this GW (Wu Tang I think was his tag), and he crushed me pretty hard. How can I beat GW's CC down tilt and whats the best way to DI his combos? Also, how can I deal with the parachute? It seems so powerful and the hitbox is gigantic.

My first actual tournament match was Solaris and I was absolutely clueless on how to approach this Link. Every approach I made got stuffed by an angled Boomerang into X aerial followup. Also, his down throw into dair seems completely guaranteed and free. Completely stuck there.

Then I played some Marth in losers, beat him badly, then was 2-0'd by FS| Darkblues' Ivysaur. It seems near impossible to win neutral vs this character. Power shielding doesn't work on Razor Leaf, and Darkblues was able to outspace me with down tilt, fair, forward tilt, and bair when I tried to play a more patient, slower poke based game. Whats the best way to DI Ivysaur's throws? Best way to DI her neutral and forward aerials? Best way to deal with Razor Leaf? Also, how to deal with forward tilt? It feels so safe on shield. It's like unpunishable.

I went to nebulous two weeks ago and i beat DarkBlues 2-0. Im not sure how you approached the matchup and idk your playstyle so im not sure what to say. But i play really aggressive and i see ivy as easy combo food. I would assume that its not a good idea to camp against ivysaur though because you will be playing his game.

Edit: ill try to think of the things i did tonight and let you know tommorow but hopefully someone can give you better evidence.

 

[bubbaking]

G&W can be weird, since a lot of our moves are easy to CC and his CC dtilt is so prominent. Just be mindful of that. Bair is pretty much always safe, block or hit, and even when CC'd, so take advantage of that. Fsmash is generally safe as well, if you can bait him into getting hit by that. G&W is pretty easy to combo once you get him up in the air. As for 'chute, well.....just don't get hit by it. It's pretty slow, so you can stuff it if he starts it too close to you. If he doesn't, don't let it hit you.

Link is a tough one. You have to be very patient and definitely don't try to force anything. A good set to watch is Plup vs Internet Explorer from Apex 2014. Air camping until you find a good opening is pretty good since MK's dive stab works wonders and Link actually has a hard time covering the space diagonally above and to the side of him with projectiles. Once you get in, though, don't let up. Link's GTFO options outside of nair are pretty lackluster.

Ivy is actually pretty easy for MK, IMO. I MM'd Darkblues at Zenith 2014 and won, but I used Zard 'cause I kinda wanted to have a Pokemon battle and it was a little tough. However, I feel that it would have been much easier if I'd just gone MK. Ivy doesn't really have good options for shaking off good pressure, like Almighty said, and she's super easy to combo. I believe you can CG her off of dthrow if she tries to DI away, and if she doesn't DI or DI's in, you can just combo her. You're really not supposed to shield Razor Leaf at all.....ever. Shielding it is almost as bad as just getting hit by it. Again, just like against Link (and against a lot of characters in general), you can kind of air camp and then dive in when you see an opening because, again, Ivy has trouble covering that space. Ivy's ftilt is definitely not safe on shield, especially if you force her to mis-space it, which is easy. Sometimes, it's not even safe on hit.

 

[Ahenobarbus]

I can only really speak about G&W, but here goes:

For the most part you want to RAR your shorthop approaches in neutral, because MK's
1) bair is amazing, as bubbaking said, and
2) tomahawk grab (landing behind him) will really cause the G&W to doubt his CC game.
But of course don't get predictable with either. Also just mix in boost grabs if he's really spamming CC. In fact, I'd start the game with a grab approach usually, then a few RAR bair approaches to see if you can condition a spotdodge out of him later, punish with tomahawk grab, late nair, dash cancel dsmash/fsmash, etc. Use ftilt in neutral only at higher %s and if he's CCing, use the 3rd hit. I wish I knew the % at which that's safe exactly.

Counterpick Yoshis or any stage with a small bottom blastzone. It makes it suuuper hard for the G&W to sweetspot recover. They will tend to go to high, because cutting it close means they might die off the bottom. Use IDC to punish if they go too high. Spaced fsmash is ok too, but you might eat a fair if he hits the sweetspot (if you do, CC and tech. you'll have plenty of time to prep for this bc if you space it right, G&W's only option to hit you is ledgehop fair). Charging an fsmash is usually what causes the G&W to push for the sweetspot and SD low. If you've forced a recovery at lower %, dtilt into a juggle works too.

G&W combos the ever living mess out of fast fallers, that's just how it is. DI and smart techs, standard stuff applies.

Parachute (nair I assume, not up b) is amazing and can cover multiple options on platforms. Just keep your survival DI on point, because with proper mixups MK can almost always recover.

Might have more to say, but real life beckons for now.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Thanks guys.
Would Grounded Shuttle Loop be an effective way to beat his CCing? Was testing stuff in Training Mode and I found that GSL can catch GW's Up B if it's well timed, in fact, I think it can stuff any ledgegrab up b attempt.

 

[AlmightySo]

G&W can be weird, since a lot of our moves are easy to CC and his CC dtilt is so prominent. Just be mindful of that. Bair is pretty much always safe, block or hit, and even when CC'd, so take advantage of that. Fsmash is generally safe as well, if you can bait him into getting hit by that. G&W is pretty easy to combo once you get him up in the air. As for 'chute, well.....just don't get hit by it. It's pretty slow, so you can stuff it if he starts it too close to you. If he doesn't, don't let it hit you.

Link is a tough one. You have to be very patient and definitely don't try to force anything. A good set to watch is Plup vs Internet Explorer from Apex 2014. Air camping until you find a good opening is pretty good since MK's dive stab works wonders and Link actually has a hard time covering the space diagonally above and to the side of him with projectiles. Once you get in, though, don't let up. Link's GTFO options outside of nair are pretty lackluster.

Ivy is actually pretty easy for MK, IMO. I MM'd Darkblues at Zenith 2014 and won, but I used Zard 'cause I kinda wanted to have a Pokemon battle and it was a little tough. However, I feel that it would have been much easier if I'd just gone MK. MK doesn't really have good options for shaking off good pressure, like Almighty said, and she's super easy to combo. I believe you can CG her off of dthrow if she tries to DI away, and if she doesn't DI or DI's in, you can just combo her. You're really not supposed to shield Razor Leaf at all.....ever. Shielding it is almost as bad as just getting hit by it. Again, just like against Link (and against a lot of characters in general), you can kind of air camp and then dive in when you see an opening because, again, Ivy has trouble covering that space. Ivy's ftilt is definitely not safe on shield, especially if you force her to mis-space it, which is easy. Sometimes, it's not even safe on hit.

Yea i forgot to mention how godlike dthrow is on ivy lmao. I would recommend just playing againstlvl 9 ivysaur and get used to the weight and follow ups after d throw. Also DarkBlues doesnt really re tether (i assume he is trying to get used not being able to re tether because of the 3.5 update.) so just grab ledge and punish the jump off ledge with a nair.
Edit: also i usually just jump over razer leafs. I never shield.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Appreciate the tips.

 

[sneakytako]

You can CC ivy's razor leaf and dtilt if he tries a grab follow up. You can generally CC almost everything ivy has, except grab.

Ivy is one of the easiest tethers to gimp, you have to stay low and be ready to punish a land on stage.

 

[bubbaking]

Anyone know much about the MK:Yoshi MU? As of now, Rolex and Raptor are literally the only two people keeping me from getting 1st or 2nd at LI tourneys, but I've got the Snake MU all figured out so that's not a problem. It's the Yoshi MU that seems hopeless to me right now. He just CCs everything into that ridiculous downB and stuff.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

You probably need more passive aggression. It is pretty hard against Yoshi though with his strong dash sh djc aerials to beat dashdancing or dash->wd back.
Boost grabs have much range which helps in many situations, and you can always exploit Yoshis slow grab and do more dash in->shield tricks.
Generally you need to do more:
threaten attack -> counter your opponent's defensive option
instead of simply attacking. Mixed up with grabs, because the threat should be one. Easier said than done , but against characters with slow grabs you can use your shield more freely which makes it somehow easier.

 

[bubbaking]

I've tried going in with grabs and mixed-up approaches more, but there are three characteristics of Yoshi that keep shutting me down.

1. Yoshi's pivot grab actually comes out quickly and has good range, so when Raptor sees me coming in, he just runs back and then pivot grabs to cover that space. If I try anything, I get grabbed.
2. Yoshi's grab may be slow, but his Egg Lay certainly is not and it has ridiculous range.
3. This is more of a gimmick, but many times when I try to grab Raptor, he invincibles through the grab by shielding. I know the parry gives Yoshi invincibility during his shield start-up, but I kinda feel that is a bit ridiculous. I read that he's going to shield, so I went for the grab, and instead, the shield remains untouched.

Those first two things also make it almost impossible for me to "shield more freely." I've tried air camping more to alleviate that, but Yoshi definitely wins that war. I don't know what I can even do. How do I beat pivot grabbing and Egg Lay without doing something that's easily CC'd?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

OK so Raptor knows the trick. Well you could follow the principle of staying out of the distance he will most likely cover and waiting there so an immediate retreat after dashing in, probably:
dash-> shield (as short as possible)->WD back.
Still this isn't 100% working yet because any wait maneouvre by Raptor will beat you. If he is good at grabshielding, more grabs wouldn't help either (although only a few Yoshis can do it).
Here it should be noted that Yoshis huge DJ should scare you away from the higher air, play it groundbased as MK should play against any character that doesn't have projectiles controlling the complete lower air room + ground or huge exploitable weaknesses in the air.
For the particular case, I would use nair in every possible form, especially if you feel he doesn't shield enough (which might actually be the case, you said he would CC all the time). Preferably use the types of nairs more often which are not :
Autoland (don't confuse with autocancel) nair if you have a platform, dash short hop nair and retreat nair (very technical, you need to press back during jumpsquat, immediately release stick as you are airbourne and nair, and then immediately hold back again). Those do a lot of work but obviously can't do all of it. My other main tip against CCing Yoshis is therefore f-smashing:
F-smash obviously beats CC and is safe on shield, while not safe on startup. But Yoshis doesn't have a move quick enough and rangeful enough to beat an f-smash on reaction. Still it is punishable if read so I would again use it as tricky as possible, using:
- run-cancel f-smash (also in the different direction if needed)
- f-smash after a retreating aerial which works as bait because it looks unsafe (because most fail to do the backward jump and only do a neutral jump while holding backward during the air, but if doing it right it is safe) but they think its unsafe and run in.
- pivot f-smash, fake out to run in and grab and then pivot->charge f-smash. If they shield it is lots of shield damage at least because you can charge up completely.
And generally, let Yoshi approach more, because that is difficult for him. I know, it is impossible to hardcore camp a projectile character with MK but you can do it more disguised by staying in the range where he can't up-b without getting punished, but outside of the range where you are threatened immediately (works against Yoshis, applying this strategy rather works against slower projectiles). You can now do fakeouts and retreats with passive pressure. In theory the concept works somehow better than in reality because it builds hugely on low reaction times but it is very useful nonetheless.
A last tip, from someone who uses the down-B not even half as often as the average MK main, here it can sometimes help. Remember that if you want to empty cape always empty cape behind the opponent (everything else is either punishable on reaction or doesn't create any pressure). The instant cape can work as unexpected tool after any action causing your opponent to not keep his defense up, so maybe after WDing back to escape, OoS (frame 12 option if done perfectly), or if you are just out of shieldgrab range and he shields, expecting the WD back (there are often better options, still worth noting).
Well, that post blew up a bit, hope there is something useful in here

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Use tomahawks bby

 

[RaptorTEC]

Oh what do we have hereeeee ;P

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Well the best strategies are the ones where you don't even need to fear about your opponent knowing them ;P

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

What are some edge guard options against DK? If he tries to go high or onto the stage I can bair. I could also fair if he tries to get back and I think I could nair right after that. What should I do if he is trying to get the auto snap from below? Drop down an nair? Are there any follow ups if he tried to sweet spot and I dtilt? I can't really setup some of these situations so I was just wondering.

A little late for the thread but I haven't seen anyone mention this yet: the dair trade. If you space a dair to hit one of DK's arms, then you will trade with it and DK will be sent down. Try it with Snake's up-b first because basically no matter where you it on it it will work, so then you know what to expect. It's pretty hard vs DK imo, but I guess if you can perfect it then it would be a great option. Foorstool is probably more reliable though.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

A little late for the thread but I haven't seen anyone mention this yet: the dair trade. If you space a dair to hit one of DK's arms, then you will trade with it and DK will be sent down. Try it with Snake's up-b first because basically no matter where you it on it it will work, so then you know what to expect. It's pretty hard vs DK imo, but I guess if you can perfect it then it would be a great option. Foorstool is probably more reliable though.

I was told in this thread, that the footstool option does not send him downward.

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

I was told in this thread, that the footstool option does not send him downward.

Wait really? I never knew that, I need to try that out

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Wait really? I never knew that, I need to try that out

If I remember correctly, you get the hop from the footstool, but that's all that happens.

 

[bubbaking]

Oh what do we have hereeeee ;P

You name-searching yourself, that's what...

 

[RaptorTEC]

I happen to frequent this thread.
what's the MK Olimar mu

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

Olimar? Is that a rare pokemon?

 

[bubbaking]

I've only played a couple decent Olimar players, but that MU did not look good for Oli.

 

[Sadface]

Anyone has MU advice on toon link?

 

[Et cetera]

Any tips on the Zelda MU? Her Up-Smash covers my approaches in the air, and her Neutral-B punishes my ground approaches too consistently. What are some suggested approaches/mixups?

 

[Dext3rM.]

i also would like to read about zelda mu i lost recently to a pretty good zelda player and it just seemed as hard as mario MU

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

^ I gotta say, that was a rough set lol

I was actually wondering about this myself from someone i played a while ago, all I could figure out from him is to try to get ceiling kills with Shuttle Loop as Zelda is very floaty, but it seemed to be pretty hard to combo her into one.

 

[bubbaking]

I play against a decent Zelda player almost every day. The most important thing to remember is that Zelda is slow. Everything she does in this MU is a commitment that MK can potentially punish. MK should primarily stay grounded because this is where the majority of his speed and mobility lies. Going into the air allows her to set up traps and stuff approaches with usmash/utilt. DD in a position where you can react to her actions. MK can easily punish a Din's attempt from half-stage away. Nayru's is good at stuffing approaches, but the lag is very punishable. There really isn't much to this MU other than DD and punish her movements. Once you get her into the air, you never have to let her back down. You don't have to 'combo' into Shuttle Loop, but you can get it easily on reaction to actions she takes. The MU only starts becoming difficult when you give her too much room to breathe and/or you keep rushing blindly into her anti-approach tools. I personally believe MK wins the MK:Zelda MU. She can be troublesome at times more because of her other moves (like f/dsmash) and the fact that she can kill us at, like, 80. Also, usmash juggles us at low %'s. (>_<)

Anyone has MU advice on toon link?

I really just treat that MU as if I was playing against a bad Link.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

For Toon Link, one thing I always say is that you can shield a bit more than usual because his grab is subpar. Obviously you can't just stay their and shield, but you have many more options for short shield inbetweens for covering attacking options for example after an aerial (to cover up-b oos and nair oos) before WDing back or nairing, or when you do the dash in->shield->WD back. Otherwise try to not get hit by projectiles as simple as it sounds (trivial suggestion, but thats what it is).

 

[GuruKid]

For the Zelda matchup:

Me vs Zhime: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFUy4f01V_E
Me vs Xzax: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7eWQ8OWLsE

I unfortunately do not have much TL nor Olimar experience but against most projectile characters it's really all about maneuvering around their zoning game while still staying relatively grounded and threatening their space... MK is a monster at bait-and-punish so you need to bait out approaches or Din setups and punish the whiffs and the lag. Proper IDC use is extremely useful in that regard. I'm kinda making it sound like it's bad for MK but I firmly believe MK vs Zelda is even; she has incredible zoning potential to rack up damage and keep you away but MK has the speed, combo and edgeguarding potency to punish even small mistakes. The important thing above all else is to pick your battles carefully; being overzealous with your approaches against a smart Zelda WILL get you destroyed.

 

[Et cetera]

For the Zelda matchup:

Me vs Zhime: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFUy4f01V_E
Me vs Xzax: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7eWQ8OWLsE

I unfortunately do not have much TL nor Olimar experience but against most projectile characters it's really all about maneuvering around their zoning game while still staying relatively grounded and threatening their space... MK is a monster at bait-and-punish so you need to bait out approaches or Din setups and punish the whiffs and the lag. Proper IDC use is extremely useful in that regard. I'm kinda making it sound like it's bad for MK but I firmly believe MK vs Zelda is even; she has incredible zoning potential to rack up damage and keep you away but MK has the speed, combo and edgeguarding potency to punish even small mistakes. The important thing above all else is to pick your battles carefully; being overzealous with your approaches against a smart Zelda WILL get you destroyed.

Thanks for the advice! The videos were also pretty helpful.

 

[Dext3rM.]

ha the zelda i was talking about was zhime thx guru i

For the Zelda matchup:

Me vs Zhime: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFUy4f01V_E

ha the zelda i lost was zhime, btw thx

 

[Jolteon]

I like how you approach the Zelda match-up, Guru. Using down+b to refresh jumps is super smart since it allows you to wait out her Din's and look for openings, I guess you could also apply a similar strategy against Diddy Kong while waiting for his second banana to disappear, I usually just expend jumps and land to do that. I also really like how you use IDC to whiff punish stuff like Naryu's.

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

Wait, I'm sort of confused how Guru was refreshing jumps like that. I thought if 3.02 when you use down-b all your jumps go away, maybe that's only if you get hit out of it? I've never really used DC like that so I don't really know...

 

[beanwolf]

If you dip down and touch the ground inside of your DC you get all your jumps back (so like DC above a platform and either hold down then back up or slide off of it while in DC). It's godlike in MUs like Zelda where you have to pick and choose your openings because her defense is so solid.

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

Damn, that's true 20XX haha, knowing me I'm just going to abuse that so much and totally mess with people