Meta Knight's New Match Up Thread: Meta Knight

[BlueZebra]

MK usually is the best choice in a matchup you're having trouble with, after all. XD

Keep in mind almost everyone has experience against Meta Knight, you'll need to play up to those standards in order to play up to par. Especially the MK Ditto, where more than likely if the other person is a MK main knowing exactly what they're doing, securing a win isn't going to be any easier.

I think you're just better off just going Lucario against MK, if you know how to play it smart and campy, that's a lot better than playing a character you're less experienced with and your opponent is much more familiar with the MU.

Still, it's your choice. If you feel you would do better in an MK ditto over Lucario vs MK, go for it. /shrugs

 

[John12346]

Well, it just sounds good on paper to me.

Once I get some field testing done, it should become obvious what I should do from there.

 

[Jem.]

Most people would have a better shot vs M2K going Jigglypuff than MK.

MK is the best character, sure, but EVERYONE practices vs MK. It's like being an amazing running back in the NFL. They're gonna stack the box vs you knowing how good the running back (or MK) is. Sometimes I feel like in some matchups (particularly ******** low tiers) I'd have a better chance with my tertiaries I practice. Like when I lost to Fow, I probably should have gone falco game 3 since I used to main him.

But if your MK is GOOD GOOD, you can do anything playing the ditto vs top MK's is hard though.

 

[Kaffei]

trying to beat M2K with MK is like trying to lick ur elbow without a tongue

 

[John12346]

Agh this is why I do field testing first

Like I said, this sounds really good on paper, but if I can't pull through gameplay-wise, then I scrap it. Simple enough.

 

[M@v]

I only have one question about the ditto because its the only part I seem to be having trouble with:

whenever the other guy and I are both offstage, he usually wins. Its the main reason I lost a ditto match vs lain in tourney recently. I'm pretty solid when the fight is on the stage. Whats the best ideas (besides not going off after them, which I've been trying to do) when both mks are offstage? You can't avoid the situation all the time.

 

[Staco]

I only have one question about the ditto because its the only part I seem to be having trouble with:

whenever the other guy and I are both offstage, he usually wins. Its the main reason I lost a ditto match vs lain in tourney recently. I'm pretty solid when the fight is on the stage. Whats the best ideas (besides not going off after them, which I've been trying to do) when both mks are offstage? You can't avoid the situation all the time.

Try to be under your enemy and UAir him.
Expect him trying to NAir your up B and avoid beeing Naired.

 

[KassandraNova]

When he's recovering back to the stage just try and limit his options. If you're better on the stage, then stay on the stage. Or practice against shutting down mks recovery in training mode with a cpu or something. Just know what beats what. Nado beats glide, and ect.

 

[Bloodcross]

CPU Ditto training is very unreliable as a means for offstage **** practice.

 

[V1CE]

I only have one question about the ditto because its the only part I seem to be having trouble with:

whenever the other guy and I are both offstage, he usually wins. Its the main reason I lost a ditto match vs lain in tourney recently. I'm pretty solid when the fight is on the stage. Whats the best ideas (besides not going off after them, which I've been trying to do) when both mks are offstage? You can't avoid the situation all the time.

try to stay under him i best and nado also beats reverse up b... if your getting shuttle looped off stage just mix it up and stay on stage... dont glide right to the ledge and dont forward b to the lledge if they near the ledge. stay on stage and fsmash the ledge read his movements and either Standing up b the off the ledge hop or nado them off the ledge... all depends how comfortable you are offstage.

 

[-LzR-]

Isn't downB a good move to recover in the ditto? It seems to be when your usual recoveries like glide, nado, sideB and upB are all easily countered.

 

[Rob_Gambino]

I only have one question about the ditto because its the only part I seem to be having trouble with:

whenever the other guy and I are both offstage, he usually wins. Its the main reason I lost a ditto match vs lain in tourney recently. I'm pretty solid when the fight is on the stage. Whats the best ideas (besides not going off after them, which I've been trying to do) when both mks are offstage? You can't avoid the situation all the time.

recovering well is ESSENTIAL.

DC from a spacing that diagonally away from the stage is ridiculously safe as a recovery option. You can cover yourself with uairs, then DC towards the ledge, if they grab the ledge, you go past it and land on the stage, and if you space it right, you’ll auto-snap to the ledge.

And if they grab the ledge, they might be able to punish your landing, but as long as you’re not really high in percent, any punish they do will keep you on the stage, and give you an opportunity to get to the center of the stage for stage control.

If they stay low and below the stage so that they can shuttle loop you, you can either out-wait them until they have to get back to the ledge, and then DC from the spot I was telling you about, or you can simply just go high and tornado. If you space it right, it’ll beat out SL, and you’ll have crazy stage control.

Juggling is REALLY helpful in this matchup. You’re at a REALLY advantaged position when the opponent is in the air, and you’re on the ground.

When the opponent is on the ledge, you can pressure the HELL outta him. There’s a certain spacing where the opponent can’t really do much to you, in my experience. It’s kinda like… barely an Ftilt away from the ledge. You can charge Fsmashes, and it makes any option he tries to do to get back on the stage really risky. Along with using other attacks so that he just can’t really do much.

Ledge pressure is reaaaally helpful in this matchup. You can rack up a ****load of damage whenever the opponent is off stage.

And punishing people who recover badly is really helpful, too.

Try and space at a neutral position, punish mistakes with grabs for stage control, pressure the opponent towards the ledge and limit his options by gaining stage control, recover well and mixup a lot on the ledge when I'm off stage/on the ledge, and when he's on the ledge pressure the hell out of him and get a lot of percent that way.

A good portion of my damage in the ditto when I play against most players is when they're on the ledge. It limits they're options really hard, and at high percents can force them to do something risky that allows me to safely throw out a kill move.

This is a really big weakness in my game as well, but here's a few things I've learned. A lot of mk's like to ledge drop n-air from the stage, but there is a spacing that really low where the nair won't hit, and you get a free shuttle loop stage spike.

You typically want to glide really low to recover, cancel your glide and work your way up from there depending on where the opponent is. If they're expecting this and waiting for you really low to SL you, just tornado right onto the stage.

Since you're really uncomfortable off stage, once you're low you can shuttle loop away from the stage to land on the stage and dash a little towards the center. Now you've turned the tables and they're on the ledge where you've got great stage control.

Wish I was better and knew more. My question is when should you edgeguard mk by gliding at directly at them, and what you should do to counter it when someone is doing it to you?

 

[Grump]

If you're really good at timing, learn the timing to dair the SL. Seems like this can semi-stagespike, and even if it doesn't, it leaves you with plenty of options and low lag (as opposed to pulling out the nado too early and getting uaired). Not to mention, if you pull it off correctly, it really boosts your ego while shutting down your opponent's

 

[Rob_Gambino]

You need quite a bit of space in order for that d-air to hit. Risk = you're dead. Reward = 7 damage. Try not to put yourself in that position; go low.

 

[Grump]

Not really. If you don't have the timing down, stay a bit farther than the apex of the flight path and catch him there. If you're beastly, you can intercept it mid-rise. It's more of a timing issue than it is spacing. Get it really down and there's almost no risk at all.

 

[Staco]

Its always a risk to throw out that dair, since you have to predict the up b, you can´t punish it on reaction (thats inhuman).
The nair is a better choice, since the hitbox stays out longer.

But yeah, I prefer not do to either of this, because the other MK can just wait and outspace you and get a possible up b stage spike etc.

I would just try to do it, if my enemy doesnt react to it, or if he is out of jumps, so that he has to up b.

 

[Gonzalo Barrios]

I Have beated alot of decent Mk's at tournaments, so I'm going to give a few advices:

Your goal in this MU is to take Meta Knight above you and then rack up damage by juggles.

General Advices:

1) U-Air, beats everything Mk has in the air, abuse that

2) DO NOT END A JUGGLE by using a Shuttle loop, You end juggles with it, Rack up all the damage you can before launching Mk off-stage

3) Tornado beats, Glide attack and shuttle loop (In the Air or Off-stage Shuttle loop has beaten nado sometimes (1/10), somebody knows how or why?

4) If Mk is on the Ledge. start charging an F-Smash, if he shuttles loop, release the smash and then use a grounded shuttle loop (ONLY if mk is above the F-Smash range, otherwise it's a free f-smash)

MK can grab the ledge and then do an invincible f-air that beats F-Smash on the ledge.... can somebody give me frame data here?

5) Fastfalled fairs are great approches but do not abuse them

6) Use F-Tilt to beat MK's F-air, and Downtilt to poke his shield

7) IF MK is F-tilting/D-Tilting/F-Airing alot use a grounded Shuttle loop

8) Down throw is a great way to combo MK, Mix it up, IF MK DI's above you he can buffer a D-Air, You can read that for example and ground shuttle Loop him
, or U-air, if he goes far away you can Mix a dash attack or a Shield-spot dodge grab. etc.

Edgeguard:

If hes going high I just chase him down with U-airs

If hes going low I just grab the ledge, drop down and do a shuttle loop facing him, this will beat his shuttle loop and drill rush, BUT NOT tornado. Mix it up, you can always chase him down with U-Airs if you are "brave" (careful enough to not get stage spiked by a Shuttle loop)


CP:

Ban your incomfortable stages and play in your favorite stages lol (or the ones you know cool tricks)


NOTE: I will edit this post if I have more advice, sorry for my english I'm chilean. Also sorry if my advice is too simple or obvious, this is my first time posting advice

 

[-LzR-]

Good read. I hate it when I almost get beaten by noob MKs because they seem to spam stuff. But I still win thought.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I liked the Uair thing and the part of "loltilts, I have GSL"
You can save that Dthrow DI read upwards into GSL for kills, I've done it a couple times.

 

[Gonzalo Barrios]

I liked the Uair thing and the part of "loltilts, I have GSL"
You can save that Dthrow DI read upwards into GSL for kills, I've done it a couple times.

Yeah I forgot that one lol.

I usually do it to stop them from buffering that D-Air so I can Dash attack them or fake a grab in to a down smash/F-Air So I can start edgeguarding/Juggle him (Depending where his DI is going).

 

[Gonzalo Barrios]

Good read. I hate it when I almost get beaten by noob MKs because they seem to spam stuff. But I still win thought.

GSL eats noob MK's, and ledge shuttle loops shut down their "shuttle loop near the stage recover"

 

[-LzR-]

Yeah I guess, I should try that, anyways, people are smart enough to not challenge me into a ditto.

 

[Jem.]

the new anti vs shadow videos are good to watch for the ditto, check those out.

 

[Gonzalo Barrios]

the new anti vs shadow videos are good to watch for the ditto, check those out.

Thanks for that, I watched them, great matches.

Anti's Mindgames are so funny... it seems that he's doing something completely random and it ends up working really well.

Quick TIP: If MK is sharking just wait for him to poke your shield with an UP-Air or a Shuttle Loop, right when he hits your shield do a GSL out of your shield, it's gonna hit him 9 out of 10 times, and it's a good KO move if he's just running away.

Also, if he's doing Shuttle Loops below the Stage (Delfino Plaza, Halberd), Just charge an F-Smash, Three things can happen: He will get hit By a super F-Smash or he will retreat, or he can wait and UP-B you or U-Air you, mix it up. Baiting this trick it's also a good choiche.

 

[Staco]

You are better of reacting to his up b and grab him on reaction.
If you just load the fsmash he could just react to it and punish you.

Good players will react.

 

[Gonzalo Barrios]

You are better of reacting to his up b and grab him on reaction.
If you just load the fsmash he could just react to it and punish you.

Good players will react.

That's a better Idea, but a grab won't kill, but a shuttle loop will, the F-Smash it's just if you know what other MK it's going to do. Also GSL can hit below the stage, a little bit.

 

[Staco]

That's a better Idea, but a grab won't kill, but a shuttle loop will, the F-Smash it's just if you know what other MK it's going to do. Also GSL can hit below the stage, a little bit.

Yeah, you could also just shield the up b and dsmash/up b OoS the others MKs ending lag.

 

[Gonzalo Barrios]

Yeah, you could also just shield the up b and dsmash/up b OoS the others MKs ending lag.

D-Smash? I'm gonna try that the next time I play a ditto in Halberd/Delfino. Thanks.

My CP's against Mk are always:

Smashville, Halberd, Frigate Orpheon or Norfair.

Basically my best stages lol.

Question: You camp or approach in dittos?

I usually camp when the game just starts, and then get extremely aggresive, to get the other guy off his game and make him play my game. It works like a charm at the tournaments dittos I have played, I usually mix up between extremely aggresive and extremely campy, but I'm not an aggro fan.

 

[Gonzalo Barrios]

I usually like to run off stage, air dodge, then SL back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnvvy5UZMeQ#t=32s

Wario has his second jump, fart, motorcycle, and up+b for his recovery options. Keep track of the fart strength and take massive advantage if Wario left his motorcycle on stage. That leaves him with his meh up+b recovery and his second jump(but you're MK, you're da bess at ****ing people up for using their second jump)

This is a great trick. But as always, don't abuse those little tricks that can give you that stock lead in a close match.

Another good trick is to D-Tilt and D-smash in high percents (KO %), If the other guy DI's up it's a guaranteed GSL (9 out of 10 times).

Use tornado if they abuse GSL alot.

If they are gliding above you the best choiche it's a U-Air, because you can rack up damage with juggles after. And in High % the choiche it's either a GSL or a D-smash (or charging a D-smash/F-Smash, waiting for the dodge and bum) or if they Glide near the ground and towards you it's a free F-smash, you can charge the F-Smash a little bit before releasing it sometimes.

 

[V1CE]

Isn't downB a good move to recover in the ditto? It seems to be when your usual recoveries like glide, nado, sideB and upB are all easily countered.

Glide is probably the worst or side b considering how predictable both are and considering that you will get reverse shuttle looped. Nado is pretty safe but you have to recover hi with it so that if they try to up b u it will just suck them up. You should ALWAYS cancel the landing lag of nado by spacing how hi you are from the stage anyway so recover hi with nado. Otherwise coming from below down b is his best option. ALWAYS go for the ledge cause if they edge guardyou will just land on the stage and most likely have time to shield if they counter you.. Dont always down b you can even up b when its situational. Being un predictable is key. Also if you glide its prob best to just scrooge to the other side. Its safest way to get back.

 

[Gonzalo Barrios]

Glide is probably the worst or side b considering how predictable both are and considering that you will get reverse shuttle looped. Nado is pretty safe but you have to recover hi with it so that if they try to up b u it will just suck them up. You should ALWAYS cancel the landing lag of nado by spacing how hi you are from the stage anyway so recover hi with nado. Otherwise coming from below down b is his best option. ALWAYS go for the ledge cause if they edge guardyou will just land on the stage and most likely have time to shield if they counter you.. Dont always down b you can even up b when its situational. Being un predictable is key. Also if you glide its prob best to just scrooge to the other side. Its safest way to get back.

These are pretty much the only options MK has to get back on the stage.

I usually glide near the stage and then I use a High Nado or I mix up a Down-B to the ledge or Dairs/Air Dodges. If They are on the Ledge I Glide high and then I quickly Down b to the ledge. Or Nado if I see a Shuttle Loop Coming.

 

[Rob_Gambino]

My question is when should you edgeguard mk by gliding at directly at them, and what you should do to counter it when someone is doing it to you?

 

[Gonzalo Barrios]

My question is when should you edgeguard mk by gliding at directly at them, and what you should do to counter it when someone is doing it to you?

Edgeguarding Mk with the glide atack it's a very dumb choice don't do it.

When they do that just use Tornado, Tornado Beats Shuttle Loop and Glide attack (remember to press B alot so it gains priority), or drop down in the ledge then do a reverse shuttle loop.

Going low and using U-airs is a good choice too.

 

[Darxmarth23]

I Find myself in a postion where i need to use glide attack to edge gaurd.
i've got buttons i can press to make me edge gaurd better than GA

 

[Gonzalo Barrios]

I Find myself in a postion where i need to use glide attack to edge gaurd.
i've got buttons i can press to make me edge gaurd better than GA

You must be edgeguarding MK the wrong way, there's no point in using the glide attack to edgeguard MK, Shuttle Loop and Nado are much better choices. And safer ones too.

You need to put yourself in bettter situations if you want to edgeguard Mk.

The best situation it's a little below Mk, so you can U-air him or N-air him.

Or Bait a reverse shuttle loop.

 

[Rob_Gambino]

Tornado is a pretty good option to defend but, but it's not unbeatable 100% counter. They can cancel the glide when they see the nado and punish. If you're pretty far away from the stage, they can shuttle loop back towards you and you'll eventually be in free fall. Even when nado hits, many times you'll be punished for more than you gave. (Definitely glad you said that though, definitely an option).

While I realize this is not a primary means of edgeguarding with mk, I do know that I've been ***** with off stage glide attacks in OH. Also, I just watched those sets Jem mentioned earlier and several times they started the glide to edgeguard, but usually cancelled it before the hit. I believe there's definitely a purpose behind it, just trying to figure what would be going through their heads in those situations.

From what I've gathered gliding allows mk to move faster horizontally through the air faster so it's easier to try and catch someone falling as fast as they can while trying to get back down to the stage. They don't want to allow their opponent to be below/above at an angle so they could hit them out of glide, be wary of tornado, and that's about all I got.

I'm pretty sure most of the time I got hit by it, is cuz back at those tournaments I didn't really glide to get back to the stage quickly when recovering. I'd be stuck jumping really slow from the lower corner or occasionally falling from the upper corner and they'd cut off my aerial angles.

I'm hoping someone else has more insight, because more often than not I lose these battles.

 

[Jem.]

you can do two things when someone is sharking. the best is just to run and shark them back, because they have to go on stage first. eventually someone will do something. at kill percents if you have very good timing, GSL is amazing too. It'll make them second guess themselves on sharking you.

 

[Gonzalo Barrios]

Tornado is a pretty good option to defend but, but it's not unbeatable 100% counter. They can cancel the glide when they see the nado and punish. If you're pretty far away from the stage, they can shuttle loop back towards you and you'll eventually be in free fall. Even when nado hits, many times you'll be punished for more than you gave. (Definitely glad you said that though, definitely an option).

While I realize this is not a primary means of edgeguarding with mk, I do know that I've been ***** with off stage glide attacks in OH. Also, I just watched those sets Jem mentioned earlier and several times they started the glide to edgeguard, but usually cancelled it before the hit. I believe there's definitely a purpose behind it, just trying to figure what would be going through their heads in those situations.

From what I've gathered gliding allows mk to move faster horizontally through the air faster so it's easier to try and catch someone falling as fast as they can while trying to get back down to the stage. They don't want to allow their opponent to be below/above at an angle so they could hit them out of glide, be wary of tornado, and that's about all I got.

I'm pretty sure most of the time I got hit by it, is cuz back at those tournaments I didn't really glide to get back to the stage quickly when recovering. I'd be stuck jumping really slow from the lower corner or occasionally falling from the upper corner and they'd cut off my aerial angles.

I'm hoping someone else has more insight, because more often than not I lose these battles.

Ok, let me see if this works for you:

If they glide and cancel it you have two choices:

If he's above, U-airs/bait a reverse Shuttle Loop

D-air beats shuttle loop/N-Air too.

You don't go offstage with nado, You do it on the edge to rack up easy damage if they try to grab the ledge with Shuttle loop from below.

If they start gliding towards you, just go lower and chase with U-airs, if they try a Nado or Drill Rush, use a reverse shuttle loop inmeadiatly (you will trade hits) and the other Mk will probably Die

Grab the ledge and use a Invincible Nair/Reverse Shuttle Loop if they glide near the edge.

Chasing with U-airs a gliding Mk it's really safe, if they air Dodge you can use N-air or bait a reverse shuttle loop.

I use this when they use that to recover And I face a lot of dittos at tournaments. Maybe I'm not understanding your point of view? If not I'm sorry.