Meta Knight 3.5 General Discussion

[Espi]

I haven't really played 3.5 with people yet. Been playing a LOT of Melee. I was only messing around with Allstar and Stamina mode

 

[9bit]

I don't think it was changed but for some reason I'm finding it easier to hit with reverse F-air and B-air.

Also debug mode is amazing. On the 3rd frame after re-appearing from DC, hold Up and A and frame advance weeeee

 

[Popertop]

Yo guys.

Below is some wishful thinking regarding what may happen to Meta in future updates

So I think the only things I'd change from 3.5 meta onward are-

Shuttle Loop glide angle 45-50 (or 55 if you are feeling generous)

DC no freefall, and you can't attack out of it, but you can airdodge out of it. (kind of like a ghost 4th jump, enables some ******** gimp shenanigans)

Nado has higher KBG on the final hit so it can kill at percents they should be dead at anyways, also take away the lag on an edge cancel (still need to test if you can do this in 3.5)

Dair will probably get tweaked, I think it is probably strong enough to leave alone, but I have trouble getting used to the lag when using it onstage (I am probably using it wrong)

/wishful thinking

Anyways, I should be recording some videos with 3.5 tech soon.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I think I found something on up b.
If you go for an up b edge cancel... When you start gliding, make mk pretty much go straight down before hitting the edge. I could act out of that a lot sooner. It felt almost like it did in the previous version.

 

[9bit]

OK, new "combos" GO

Low %

• Grounded opponent
  • D-air or f-air into d-smash, d-tilt, f-tilt, dash attack, grab... lot's of stuff
  • D-throw: If they are at landing-prone-% I like to walk forward a few steps or wavedash after the throw, for tech-chasing. Then you shield if they getup attack, dash forward if they roll away, turn around if they roll in, and jab (F-tilt) reset if they do nothing. You should also be able to get a DACUS sometimes.
  • Up-throw into d-air

Gimps

• Off-stage
  • F-air to n-air or another f-air is great
  • Still trying to work in d-air. Seems to be best to hit them when they're right below you, it sends them farther than hitting with the sides.
• You are ledge-hogging
  • Release-aerial-jump d-air into another aerial if you get the weak hitbox

 

[Jolteon]

Outer hitbox stats: 6 dmg/15 BKB/105 KBG/55 angle
Inner hitbox stats: 9 dmg/15 BKB/105 KBG/40 angle

So yeah, for gimping/killing purposes the inner hitboxes are optimal. They're also great for setting up tech chases or sending opponents off-stage. Outer hitbox's weaker hit/higher angle are amazing for setting up for followups off stage, at higher percents or on survival DI.

 

[-Ran]

Hey Jolteon,

Do you know if the hitboxes for the F-tilt are intended to not match the animation?

 

[Jolteon]

Hey Jolteon,

Do you know if the hitboxes for the F-tilt are intended to not match the animation?

Currently unable to check the hitboxes on a Wii to see what FTilt is like, but nothing was unintentionally changed between 3.02 and 3.5 regarding hitboxes to my knowledge (his sword scales with his model size). The exception would be his Brawl Dair, which is slightly smaller than the sword slash graphic.

 

[-Ran]

Currently unable to check the hitboxes on a Wii to see what FTilt is like, but nothing was unintentionally changed between 3.02 and 3.5 regarding hitboxes to my knowledge (his sword scales with his model size). The exception would be his Brawl Dair, which is slightly smaller than the sword slash graphic.

I know that in 3.0 his ftilt wasn't perfect to his blade, but it seems that since MK is larger, it is now -really far off.-

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

You also might be having Marth-esque debug mode issues where the move looks off due to lack of interpolation and (especially this) Z-axis shenanigans. MK has a lot of Z-axis moves which can throw you off visually.

 

[leekslap]

So is this thread gonna replace my thread or wut? If it is, then I think it warrants a sticky.

 

[-Ran]

You also might be having Marth-esque debug mode issues where the move looks off due to lack of interpolation and (especially this) Z-axis shenanigans. MK has a lot of Z-axis moves which can throw you off visually.

Unfortunately...

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

What characters do you guys think, will be problematic for the homie?

 

[Espi]

Hey Jolteon,

Do you know if the hitboxes for the F-tilt are intended to not match the animation?

I'm also seeing it. I guess PMDT forgot to do that or something.

 

[leekslap]

What characters do you guys think, will be problematic for the homie?

R.O.B., Mario, Samus, and apparently Tink are pretty bad. Maybe Link or Marth?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I don't know about mario. A lot of hardship, came from things that have been nerfed. ie fireball, up b wall jump, dair and dthrow. The up b wall jump nerf, weakness mario recovery greatly, on any stage that isn't a pillar. So now, he's pretty susceptible to being gimped. The dthrow got mk to around 40% and had a free follow up. I don't think mario can do it anymore(?) At the same time, mk lost his dthrow and grab range. I think mk could have this MU in his favor.

The rob MU 'seems' like it was before. Stay low and you're fine. It's a lil harder to challenege robs recovery tho.

I dif think samus would still be a bad MU. Sonic could still be hard. Maybe a few others could be hard as well, I'd have to think about it.

I don't know what changes link has so I dunno. I don't know TINK

I don't know Marth. Guru seemed to handle it fine.

 

[Espi]

Fox MU has definitely shifted into Fox's favor in 3.5 imo. In 3.02, one of the main things MK had against Fox was D-Throw. Now he doesn't have that option, so combo starters and followups are harder to come by. MK also lost a jump in the transition to 3.5, so gimping also becomes harder. Shinespike becomes more prominent with the jump/recovery nerf too.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I kinda figured spacies got harder

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Towards the tip of dtilt, there's no hitbox. And is dair hitbox correct? Looks a lil weird going towards the sword. There's nothing there and sword is kinda still in motion and stuff.

 

[SpiderMad]

Someone do everything in this. Or just SH Uair Bair twice in a row.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Someone do everything in this. Or just SH Uair Bair twice in a row.

If I claw, I can do that stuff. But, I don't normally claw. Does those even have any uses?

 

[SpiderMad]

@ Hinichii.ez.™
Lots

They all Autocancel besides Nair
http://smashboards.com/threads/understanding-auto-cancels-and-iasa-concerning-up-air-bair.332160/

Double aerials are good for shield pressure, and CC

You shouldn't have to claw, his jumpsquat is short enough to almost press X and A at the same time with your thumb rolling right to left over them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeLklmmYyNk#t=41

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

@ Hinichii.ez.™
Lots

They all Autocancel besides Nair
http://smashboards.com/threads/understanding-auto-cancels-and-iasa-concerning-up-air-bair.332160/

Double aerials are good for shield pressure, and CC

You shouldn't have to claw, his jumpsquat is short enough to almost press X and A at the same time with your thumb rolling right to left over them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeLklmmYyNk#t=41

I'll try pressing A instead of switching my grip, then I'll get back to ya.

 

[SpiderMad]

Just make sure you're getting the Up-air close to frame perfect, which you would practice the autocancels for, then just time the 2nd aerial (usually people press it too early) and use the c-stick for it except with Nair of/c (which you'd want to start with Double Uair or Uair Fair, then the hardest is SH Uair Bair)

 

[Popertop]

Those are really easy to do if you use Z for aerials (secret tech because you can also use Z to L-Cancel)

 

[9bit]

Has anyone experimented with setting all of the D-pad buttons to B for better Tornado height? I'm getting at least 50% more height while exerting much less effort now.

Still gotta get used to the muscle memory of moving my right thumb to the d-pad quickly and accurately, but so far I am loving the results.

I didn't footstool anyway.

If I can train myself to go back to Z for grab I could set X to footstool, but 1) I hate the Z button and 2) I'm waiting to see if footstool is amazing enough for MK to start trying to incorporating it into my play. Also lazy.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Might be an option for me, having footstool on X. Honestly I don't need all my taunts, I barely taunt.

 

[9bit]

I'm getting like 95%+ of max/perfect height and distance now. So sweet.

This is only re-enforcing my thoughts that Tornado is the go-to recovery move now. It doesn't take your jumps away when you use it* and it goes by far the farthest and highest.

Unless you need to grab the ledge, that is.


* Clarification: MK's Up-B and Down-B take away all your aerial jumps as soon as you use either move. Neutral-B and Side-B do not. That means, if you were to say use 1 aerial jump, then your Up-B, and you got hit out of your Up-B without touching the ground, you would have zero aerial jumps to help you recover now, and you'd be forced to use a B move to recover.

However, if you had used Tornado after only 1 aerial jump and you got hit, you can now use your 2 remaining aerial jumps (or just 1 if you want, and save the last one!) and then do another B-move to recover.

The only thing Tornado lacks is an easy ledge-grab, otherwise it is MK's best recovery option most of the time. If you want/need to quickly grab the ledge, you want to use one of his other moves, depending on the situation. And grabbing the ledge (or edge cancelling) is important now because of the increased landing lag on all his B moves.

But for height, distance, and aerial control, you just can't beat Tornado now! (If you set your D-pad all to Special.)

 

[SpiderMad]

Do it and record yourself
http://smashboards.com/threads/giga...d-breaker-v3-5.339825/page-1477#post-18397740

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Do it and record yourself
http://smashboards.com/threads/giga...d-breaker-v3-5.339825/page-1477#post-18397740

You mean as practice or to prove ourself or to see it is possible?
Because I know it is possible.

 

[SpiderMad]

You mean as practice or to prove ourself or to see it is possible?
Because I know it is possible.

Prove yourselves

And give me information on people's average difficulty on stuff

 

[Kappy]

The only one that's actually difficult is SH Uair -> Bair (at least for me, but I've never bothered practicing it because SH Uair -> Uair is usually superior in every situation). I'd record myself but I've used SH Uair -> Uair and SH Uair -> Nair in almost every tournament set I've played. LOL. Sh Uair -> Dair is useless but easy to do, SH Uair -> Fair is now useless (was really good in 3.02) but also easy to do.

 

[9bit]

SH Uair -> Fair is now useless (was really good in 3.02) but also easy to do.

I'd actually be interested to hear more about this

I mean about its uselessness

 

[Jolteon]

I'd actually be interested to hear more about this

I mean about its uselessness

The high BKB on fair1 and fair2 in 3.02 made it ideal as a conversion against opponents at lower %s, 3.5 fair1 and fair2 both use WDSK to make it link into fair3 better (like Falcon's nair) which gives it much lower KB in general, means it's way worse at lower %s as a result where higher KB moves naturally work better as combo conversions. I think Kappy means that there are just better aerials to combo with at lower %s when at a ground height, primarily I can think of uair (40 bkb+vertical angle) and nair (30 bkb).

 

[IonescoBasco]

It's been months and MK still seems not as special or useful. I miss maining the little guy.

 

[Kankato]

Hello Smashboards. Are there any Meta Knight mains posting tech and stuff to help a noob git gud?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

This contains some decent information. But getting good is often mostly fundamentals, so practice and in-depth understanding of the game can help more than learning tech.
Feel free to ask questions about MK.

 

[Kankato]

Feel free to ask questions about MK.

I have a lot of questions:
What are MK's effective ranges?
What are some effective ways to pressure shields?
Does he have any tech traps?
What are the general structures of MK's combo game?
What should every MK main be able to do?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

If, by effective range, you mean the range of the hitboxes, check in debug mode, it is better than any explanation. If, by effective range, you mean at which range MK is especially effective, he can't really outspace opponents (except for a few like Sonic) so you should rely on staying outside of both ranges or inside of yours, where you often have faster attacks. You can mindgame your opponent in guessing the wrong one of those. When grounded in neutral, the ranges of f-tilt, d-tilt and grab are key, while when trying to catch approaches with an aerial the nair and fair range will often matter.
The obvious and unhelpful answer is grabbing. Using nairs with little nuances (crossup, retreating, full jump or short hop) can be safe on shield if you "guess" right how to use the nair this time, and catchs them offguard if they don't shield. Using two aerials in one short hop (in theory up-air->anything is possible but up-air->up-air and up-air->nair are most practical) provides good shield pressure. Spacing f-smashs on the opponents shield is safe on cooldown, and if you are sure the startup won't get punished it also provides a little frame advantage window if you hit their shield.

Spacing f-smashs in neutral is a bit double-edged. They probably won't hit, and you probably won't get punished. The idea of te strategy is that you gain a little neutral game advantage if you hit their shield, because it forces them to get of the shield somehow and iirc you also get a little frame advantage. The opponent gets a little frame advantage if it doesn't hit. Those frame advantages shouldn't be underestimated, even if they don't get a guaranteed followup.

MK has very good techchase tools. His f-tilt can reset, nair normally hits even knocked down opponents, his dash speed is fast and the boost grab's range is also very good. Just use everything you can implement here, techchasing is not relying on a few setups but on the entirety of the moveset applied in a frame-advantage situation.
The combo game is structured in the following way: The "juggling" aspect about MK is strong, he can keep opponents in the air with his up-air. Don't forget how many jumps you have left to finish the multiple up-air juggle into something with horizontal knockback to extend the advantage into a stage position or even potential edgeguard advantage, I've seen it so many times that a MK up-aird over and over and then gave them a free landing because he was out of jumps. The edgeguarding and the techchasing, as previously mentioned, are not that setup-dependent with MK and often build a bigger part of his combo game than the guaranteed followups. Combo starters are throws that can give you DI traps, nair and up-air, and, very important, the d-tilt, which obviously has the advantage that you do not have to commit to a jump to try to get that combo starter in. Up-smash also works but is hard to get in neutral. Often you can extend combos with your "weird" burst movement moves up-b, dash attack, side-B (rare case), or down-B, if anything else wouldn't have worked. Normally, try to hit them with a move like nair, bair or d-smash to end the combo because the horizontal knockback will help to sustain the pressure.
I don't think you could clearly categorize into things every MK main should be able to do or not. It is a continuum, just try to get better with the techskill over time. For MK, high precision on simple techskill is important, a little more advanced are the sh double aerials, ledgecancelling aerials, autolanding the nair, the dash-crouch-dance (longer dash-dancing by crouching out of your run, dashing again and then being able to dash-dance again instead of the slow turn animation), some OoS options and the DACUS. A very hard but useful thing is being able to pivot tilt quick and consistently, only then you can use down- and forward-tilt to their true potential.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

So what are your go to options for combos against a spacie? Once d throw knocks down, it appears to get much easier if you can reaction tech chase, but what do you use to get them to those percents. Throw followups in general would be helpful. Been doing some labbing for a secondary and Meta Knight feels like he might work.