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Meta Knight 3.5 General Discussion

Thane of Blue Flames

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I wrote up my thing

I'd love to know what people think
I have too much of a hard-on for 3.5 dair to agree, sorry :/

I understand it was an amazing mobility option but that divekick felt hella off to me, like I was missing an attack or something when fighting.

Look at this way: 3.02 MK multi-tasked Jiggs, Marth and Sheik's jobs all at once, with some crazy mobility mix-ups thrown in top such that he was better then all of them at their playstyles. The 3.5 was a Sheik removal and making MK more focused on positional advantage, spacing and edge-guards, like a slightly worse Marth but with wings.

I know it must suck to have to learn what is now a fundamentally different and largely altered character but MK 3.02 was too good at not being pinned down while being able to corner most of the cast, even with 3.02's crazy recovery bar. To a large degree it was necessary.

Genuinely sorry for the loss of Dimensional Cape stuff though. It was cool.
 

Kappy

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I found the funniest Dimensional Cape thing and recorded it because of how godlike it is (along with a couple other funny things that 3.5 MK has). They're all really detrimental and useless, but eh, it's funny nonetheless. LOL. I'll let you guys know when the vid's on YT.
 

9bit

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I have too much of a hard-on for 3.5 dair to agree, sorry :/

I understand it was an amazing mobility option but that divekick felt hella off to me, like I was missing an attack or something when fighting.

Look at this way: 3.02 MK multi-tasked Jiggs, Marth and Sheik's jobs all at once, with some crazy mobility mix-ups thrown in top such that he was better then all of them at their playstyles. The 3.5 was a Sheik removal and making MK more focused on positional advantage, spacing and edge-guards, like a slightly worse Marth but with wings.

I know it must suck to have to learn what is now a fundamentally different and largely altered character but MK 3.02 was too good at not being pinned down while being able to corner most of the cast, even with 3.02's crazy recovery bar. To a large degree it was necessary.

Genuinely sorry for the loss of Dimensional Cape stuff though. It was cool.
I actually really like the new d-air, I even mentioned it in the post. But I had to make note of the loss of mobility from the old d-air.
 

Chesstiger2612

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To me it seems as if the wavedash length/speed is the same but a general change converts it into longer lasting momentum, at least I noticed if you follow up with a jump those seem to have more horizontal momentum for several characters.

Autoland nair still works (I posted it in May and still no one uses it, MK mains slow on the catchup as it seems).

Up-air DMG is buffed but the midair jumps were nerfed. The result should be you should use less mid-air jumps because combos won't connect and you have a hard time landing. But with the buffed up-air the basic air juggle should most likely be:
up-air (one or two times, don't use all your jumps)->nair/bair.

If you are quick you can do sh up-air dair it is really good.

The momentum conversion rates from dashinto short hop are still really high so basic nair strategies should still work fine, although you might need to time your nair more accurate.
@ AlmightySo AlmightySo
Some more details:
Basically you have a guessing&reacting game in neutral.
MK often has slight advantages because he has a enormous boost grab and great dashdancing, so both advantages for your approach game. His shield size can make anti-approaching a bit risky, together with the fact he can't wall out opponents simply.
You don't have a weapon as the shine though, and your aerials aren't safe by timing...
That leads to the conclusion you generally want to approach, but a bit carefully.

As @victinivcreate1 already mentioned, this means you want to rely on your movement options, while mainly threatening boost grab, JC grab, nair and down-tilt. If they like to shield, go for boost grabs more often (bigger range) while you should rather JC grab if you are not so sure because its less punishable. You can also threaten a boost grab from a range where they can't punish, bait out there spot dodge and grab after that. An underrated/underused tool is also to dash behind them if they like to shield/spot dodge/roll because any attack OoS will need longer (shieldgrab isn't avialable now).

A tool your opponent can use is a ground move to anti-approach your movement&grab game. Another issue can be that grabs will often lose to a WD back OoS. Because of this, you also need other moves in neutral. I mainly recommend nair, it is fast and together with your horizontal movement from the full jump/short hop it should reach your opponent in time. If you space it "normally" it is easily shieldgrabbable though. You have three options to make your nair safe:
Full jump autoland (on platform nair), which does only require a platform and is really tough to deal with, WD back OoS is your opponents hope here because it has not that much horizontal momentum. You can fall through the platform very quick again and try to land -> grab or do a nair on the back of their shield.
Then crossup nair (dash shorthop nair) beats WD OoS because it sticks out a hitbox over much horizontal distance. To make it safe on shield, you need to start it when close to your opponent (so you will crossup) which makes it vulnerable to an early aerial OoS. Well-timed spot dodges are also a problem, without the shieldstun the bair OoS does well for many characters.
The fadeaway nair (press back in the last jumpsquat frame, nair, hold back) also needs to be started close so it can lose to early aerials OoS. If they react right they can WD back OoS which gives you just a little pressure advantage, if they stay in shield you are very close to a guaranteed grab.
A last trick about nair shield pressure is to fake out the "normally" spaced nair on shield while not doing the nair, they will shield to do a shieldgrab and you can land and grab them, a socalled tomahawk grab. Start mixing in normally spaced nairs now because they will think you won't put out a hitbox to get the faster landing.

There are two more cases to review: They want to pressure you... You have many possibilities to stop their running in, the one I prefer is dash in SHFFL fadeaway fair (do it as the nair just with a fair) because fair has multiple hitboxes catching different timing possibilities. If you are forced in your shield you still have shieldgrab, nair OoS, up-B OoS, WD OoS, and even Cape OoS. As general rule it is pretty hard to go aggressive enough to force a non-passive MK into his shield without having to take huge risks.

The last thing (if they are mobile characters too probably the best) is too also use movement to bait out and punish moves. Here my advice is to not fall into predictable patterns, not throw out slow moves and if you throw any moves out, only if you are convinced they will hit. You need to be on point with your movement, too. The best moves to "catch them" is f-tilt (learning pivot and runcancel f-tilt helps here really) when they end up being close more often, if they stay more spaced but still in d-tilt range this is your number one move, nair is multifunctional and retreating fairs if you want to read an offensive tendency, and grabs if they shield or stay where they are too often. If they throw out moves always shield when you have gone in the most and quickly wavedash back to continue the movement game.

Ledgecanceling up-bs gets even more important as the zero lag cancel doesn't work anymore.

Most dash short hop nair confirms lead into DACUS if they DI down/to the sides, otherwise up-air->nair should work.

Boost grabs are also still really strong, definitely worth replacing normal dash grabs with.

F-tilt cancel->anything is worse, and while it doesn't effect the f-tilt1->2->3 directly, it does indirectly. With the cancel slow enough to react to, there is no mindgame between the full combo and the cancel anymore (or at least a mindgame with probabilities bad enough you shouldn't try it). The opponent can wait for the combo to end and grab afterwards and grab inbetween if you wait long enough for the cancel. F-tilt can't be spammed as much now. That also affects the threat of pivot f-tilts when dashing back, the option being worse allows your opponent fearing it less and playing a more confindent ground game.

Most important: MIDAIR JUMP LESS! Dair was never a free landing and in some ways overused but now that option isn't even available.

Other characters projectiles are worse, and that makes up for the nerfs (without the MK nerfs he would be too good including the proectile nerfs).

Counterpicking and stage-banning has to be adjusted in regards to the lack of the old dair.

@victinivcreate1
If you drop perfectly you have 30 frames of invincibility. From my tests a perfect waveland touches the stage at at frame 9 so you are left with 10 frames of special landing animation and have still 11 frames left:
F-tilt (3) and Dash attack (4) is easily doable.
D-smash (6), d-tilt (6), up-tilt (if you ever need it in that moment lol; 7), up-smash (8) affords some precision.
Nair (inner 7; outer 9), up-air (9), fair(10), Cape(7) and up-b(8) afford great precision
I was also told 31 frames were left initially, so that would result in 12 remaining frames.

I'm confident MK is in the solid mid of the cast still.
 

9bit

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OK so what do we do after d-throw now? Is d-throw still the go-to option (I'm noticing up-throw to d-air is good)?
 

Hinichii.ez.™

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I'm sticking with MK through all of this. But I'm not happy with the DThrow nerf. I loved tech chasing with MK, now it's been nerfed hard. :(. Also, his wavedash definitely feels longer.
Just go to FoD
Unless you on FoD
Do no dthrow at %
If that's a slow character you can try it and like Dsmash or something
I don't really use till the mid - higher %'s
Unless FoD
 
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Chesstiger2612

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Down-throw at lower %s, then there are 2 ranges for up-throw where you can up-throw->followup in one and at a bit higher percents up-throw->jump->followup. At high percents just go for the best stage positioning, and choose the respective throw.
 

trash?

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DACUS is fun, new dair is fun, new MK is fun

old MK was boring and relied on a single mobility option, this one's so much cooler and likely just as top tier because now top MK players will remember he has other options other than 3.0-dairing and DCing around for once

also, dair destroys spacies, it's great
 

Hinichii.ez.™

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I only liked the old dair b/c I didn't have to deal with **** when trying to get back to the stage. Oh and uair to dair was baller af. Mk didn't rely on it tho, but it did by pass the ability for someone to keep you off the ground.
 
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MegaAmoonguss

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I just discovered (I'm sure others have as well, but I want people to know about it!) that when hanging on the ledge, you can let go, air jump, d-air, and re-grab the ledge. Nice.
Pretty good space coverage too. You can do that with b-air as well, it just covers a little higher up and isn't quite as fast.
 

MegaAmoonguss

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OK so what do we do after d-throw now? Is d-throw still the go-to option (I'm noticing up-throw to d-air is good)?
The one thing I've figured out so far is d-throw to f-tilt. It's pretty handy, gets some nice damage and sets up for a fair or nair depending on their DI.
 

MegaAmoonguss

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Oh and uair to dair was baller af.
Oh so also this could possibly be a thing: up-air -> dair -> IDC

I was trying to get it to work in the lab but it's a bit hard with the IDC frame change and the ending lag of the dair. I think it's possible though, it just seems very situational. But if you manage to pull it off it would be so stylish lol
 

Hinichii.ez.™

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I've got some situations where I have gotten a down b from uair>dair

What do you guys think about using it in tech chases? Kinda like sheik, but it acts differently.
 

Espi

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Guys, use pivot D-Smash. It's pretty good. I've been using B-Throw more often.
 
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trash?

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fyi: meta knight's DACUS is prolly the best DACUS in the game because, since his usmash is multi-hit, it covers several situations in one move
 

AlmightySo

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Time for me to learn how to dacus before 2:00(aka time i have to leave to make it to 3.5 local)
 

Espi

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I wouldn't say his DACUS is the best in the game by a long shot, since you usually have to catch your opponent with the first hit.
 

MegaAmoonguss

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On a similar not to the video @ Kappy Kappy posted, I've found a weird thing that happens while trying to DC to the ledge from onstage. Usually if you just go from an approximate distance (a wide range works, pretty easy to hit, the circles underneath the platforms on BF are perfect spots to go from), MK will slide off the edge and grab the ledge, and it works fine in 3.02.

I've always found myself holding into the stage while doing this to make sure MK doesn't just slide off and fall down weirdly and then have to jump back up because he never grabbed. However, if I do this in 3.5 and I'm just barely too far out, MK will hit the edge of the stage and then slide back about a BF platform distance, and it looks really funny. Super punishable though, so now I've just been RAR empty short hopping onto the ledge instead of DC out of run.

Also, if you do it too close and don't "edge cancel" to slide off the stage, MK will just DC off the stage and go into freefall and you die. Welcome to 3.5 :p
 

Kappy

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LOL I just tried that ledge DC thing out; it's amazing! I've found how to taunt people in 3.5 with MK now.
 

MegaAmoonguss

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Which one, the weird slide? I gotta figure out how to do the stuff you did in that video haha, it's just precise spacing though I guess.

RIP MK edge cancels
 

9bit

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Playing around with Down-B.

For recovery, it sucks to the edge from pretty far away, but that might be a global thing. Now that it goes farther it almost functions like a decent "normal" Up-B. And the end of it is really weird. The control you have over the little extra boost at the end has some applications I'm sure... just haven't figured them out yet.

You control how far it goes by first pushing Down-B and then waiting before holding a direction. So you can sweetspot from above the ledge with that.

If you do Kappy's DC "edge bounce" thing but don't hold up you get a nice momentum boost across the stage.

That's all I got for now. Interesting stuff.

Going in to freefall after edge cancelling the attack is BS and should be fixed in the bug patch, PMDT
 

JABS

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Control Stick can be used to shift your momentum out of DC at the very beginning of the exiting animation.
 
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Jolteon

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To shed a little insight on MK's changes, he was simply far, far too strong for 3.5's environment after other global character changes to burst movement, combo breaking potential, recovery redesigns etc. had happened. As a character that particularly excels in punishing people who are above him by denying them the ground, is very potent in off-stage situations and whose excellent dash dance game was indirectly made much better by toning down projectile strength in neutral, 3.5 was shaping up to be the exact kind of environment that plays into MK's core strengths (excellent dash dance/ground mobility, relatively safe normals, capitalizing on and maintaining positional advantage). Keep in mind that, while a vast majority of his change list has toned him down quite considerably, 3.5's environment does a lot to greatly improve his relative strength.

In the interests of not totally gutting MK's core strengths and what makes him a fundamentally strong character, we decided to tackle other areas instead ("trimming the fat"). As MK had all the basic, fundamental tools necessary to compete in a 3.5 environment, it was a matter of trimming down excessive areas to make sure he fit within 3.5's scope.

The changes were intended to address a few choice areas: 1) Adding on a little more commitment onto moves that were extremely difficult to punish 2) Toning down his recovery by making lag punishing/gimping him much more feasible, preserving MK's highly flexible recovery but also greatly increasing the reward of actually punishing his recovery 3) cutting down extra movement options that made him extremely difficult to pin down in conjunction with his already stellar ground mobility 4) making him considerably worse in bad positions (juggle states/off-stage situations etc.) and 5) focusing his punish game around maintaining positional advantage.
 
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MegaAmoonguss

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Thanks for the insight! This can definitely be useful info, and I bet everyone appreciates the you took your time to explain certain nerfs that were made!
 

BluntedMask

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Yo MK can still tech chase like a boss. On certain characters at zero % off of a dthrow, they are forced into such a terrible position. They basically have to buffer something or they get grabbed. You can react to this **** so easily.

Plus the new dair is so amazing, you can edgegaurd anyone you want now. Also for some reason jab feels faster, might just be me though.

One more thing are the buffs to nair. Before with the almost non existent ending hitboxes you could barely and unreliably tech reset someone. Now you can cover multiple tech options plus a no tech with nair since it lasts a tad bit longer.

Anyway, downb changes suck, dthrow after 20% isn't as free on tech chases(Still pretty free though) and you can't get a free recovery anymore. Loving the new Knight.
 

Thane of Blue Flames

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I am in love with this character

I mean he just feels like was made to throw things offstage and dare them to come back

I keep SD'ing I mean I kinda suck with his recovery but once I get some practice I'm to map taunt to X and just yell COME everytime I go offstage for a dair gimp

That's the real new MK tech right there if none of y'all can do that in tournament why do you even play this character
 

Hinichii.ez.™

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I am in love with this character

I mean he just feels like was made to throw things offstage and dare them to come back

I keep SD'ing I mean I kinda suck with his recovery but once I get some practice I'm to map taunt to X and just yell COME everytime I go offstage for a dair gimp

That's the real new MK tech right there if none of y'all can do that in tournament why do you even play this character
I play mk because he is Freddy's left nut with a butter knife
 

Thane of Blue Flames

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Which taunt should I be using for this madness?
Up-taunt ("COME") and side-taunt ("FIGHT ME") both work. Telling your opponents you step their game up as you block their recoveries better than Sonic can.

Remember to purposefully select the "COME BACK WHEN YOU LEARN HOW TO FIGHT" victory screen to completely destroy your opponent's mindset going to the next match.
 

9bit

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The new f-air leads really well into d-air or n-air for gimps.

I still think d-air's hitboxes are a little too small / short in duration, but damn is it a sexy move.

Tournament winner d-air edgeguard lolol

 
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MegaAmoonguss

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I have a few issues with ledge hop d-air personally. The thing is is that it isn't very powerful. Say you're doing this to Fox. You will literally have to hit him with d-airs until he's at 170% in order to gimp him.

Much more often for certain characters (including spacies), after a back throw for example, I'll find myself jumping down as fast as possible and intercepting them while in up-b charge up or mid flight. If I don't have time to do this, I might go to the ledge and d-air once, but then since they just start the up-b as early as possible after that, I'll just do a ledge getup and then edgeguard with b-air, n-air, or anything more powerful then d-air.

If you do manage to get far offstage, I've found d-air can be a great gimping move from there. Basically acting like f-air but with a different range and it's a little more reliable to send them forward as opposed to behind you. Although they did fix a lot of the issues with f-air sending people behind you in 3.5, it's much more consistent in making them go forward as opposed to 3.02 (thank god).
 
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