Melee Online: Progress Report

[Morin0]

Ideally you'll be able to view the player's ping before playing with them. Also, it's not about a fast speed, but more about ping. You can test your ping to different servers across the US at http://pingtest.net

We're only sending a few bytes of data per frame, really, so that's hardly anything as far as connection speed. A few kb per second. The ping is what causes input lag, and most people have a good ping at least within their region.



Depending on the future of SSBPD, we might use their servers for ranked matches. This, however, is entering the realm of hopes and dreams as we haven't gotten even as far as to plan out a lobby system yet.

Smash 64 is ~55 KB/s I believe and trust me -- people still manage to lag. Keep in mind that this is through a server so technically the bandwidth demand isn't that great because of the server acting as the middleman. I believe p2p is a bit more demanding because it cuts out the middleman.

I'm not confusing internet speed with ping. Ping is only important for frame delay and isn't generally a good indicator of someone who lags. It's mostly geographical and internet routing (someone with 15ms can still lag like crazy). You would only care about ping if you don't want to play with, say, 5 frames so you would only play with people in your state or region to have the lowest ping possible. Internet speed helps a teeny bit but that's pretty much it.

Maybe Kaillera is just bad :S

 

[dkuo]

I had 21 ms ping with philly and 22 with brooklyn NY and i'm in central jersey, is that good?

that's like 2 frames. not bad

unless my understanding of ping is completely off

 

[The Star King]

^Yeah 2 frame delay on kaillera

@Morino People lag in 64 not because of bandwidth but because of packet dropping. IDK wtf this means but that's what I've always been told

 

[Morin0]

^Yeah 2 frame delay on kaillera

@Morino People lag in 64 not because of bandwidth but because of packet dropping. IDK wtf this means but that's what I've always been told

No, desynchronization is the result of dropping packets. You have a higher chance of desynchronizing if you're lagging, but dropping packets is not the direct reason as to why someone lags. If I start torrenting while playing online, I will start to lag and my ping will skyrocket. In that situation, torrenting is the reason why I'm lagging. Dropping packets is something that can happen because of lag.

But I don't think we have to worry about desynchronization here. According to the SSBMO plan, desynchronization is something that will not happen.

... I think

EDIT: Maybe bandwidth wasn't the right word, but your internet speed would have to be a bit better to keep up with the higher amount of packets being sent/received in p2p.

 

[Dan Salvato]

SSBMO will be P2P and not through a server like Kaillera. This will result in faster and more reliable connections. Melee desyncs so often because it is prone to tiny lag spikes caused by Dolphin. Along with button inputs, we sync data such as character position, velocity, and action state, so any desync will be corrected within ~5 frames.

 

[TheVeman3000]

So, how's the progress so far? Also, what will you be having to do next after possibly fixing the sync issues caused by Dual-Core mode?

 

[fatman667]

Is there going to be three different server lists for each version of the game? i.e. one server list for version 1.0 and another for 1.02 and etc. Or are they all going to be in the same server list or only 1.02 is supported?

 

[Morin0]

I believe 1.2 is only supported at the moment. Not sure if they will support other versions later.

Hopefully I can delve into this subject without getting an infraction, but aren't you guys making edits to the actual ISO so that Dolphin can stay in sync, right? So if that's the case, I'm assuming we would all be need the same ISO with the edits? If this is true, then I imagine support for other game versions will come whenever the same edits are made for the other versions.

Or maybe you guys will have a small executable that will automatically patch the ISO we already have?

 

[Dan Salvato]

I believe 1.2 is only supported at the moment. Not sure if they will support other versions later.

Hopefully I can delve into this subject without getting an infraction, but aren't you guys making edits to the actual ISO so that Dolphin can stay in sync, right? So if that's the case, I'm assuming we would all be need the same ISO with the edits? If this is true, then I imagine support for other game versions will come whenever the same edits are made for the other versions.

Or maybe you guys will have a small executable that will automatically patch the ISO we already have?

Correct, we will only be supporting v1.02 NTSC. The only patcher we will include with the game is one which will patch your ISO to v1.02. The modifications to game code I make will be inserted via Dolphin's AR code support, so modifying the ISO is not necessary for that.

We don't want to support multiple versions because it would be silly to fragment the community and have you only able to play against 1/2 the people, those which share your version. It makes more sense to put the entire player base into one group with the same game version.

 

[Massive]

No edits are being made to the ISO to sync games, nor will there be an such changes necessary. All pertinent syncing is being done at runtime with real-time memory edits (more or less AR codes).

We are doing everything based on the 1.2 image, which is the only one that will be supported. Other versions will not be supported simply because of sync issues. This does not eliminate the possibility of re-adding character differences from different versions back in via patches.

Whatever settings/game mechanics the server uses will be enforced on the client. Client side alterations to running game code will be superseded by whatever the server is running, and will probably cause desyncs.

 

[Sangoku]

I still don't understand the origin of lag. Why if someone else on the same internet connection as me starts downloading I will start to lag? Everybody keeps saying kaillera hardly uses any bandwidth, so it shouldn't be happening. Or? Packet drop causes DS, high ping causes high delay, but what about lag? I'm a computer/internet noob btw.

And is it only due to Kaillera, ie will it change with SSBMO? I mean if someone else is youtubing/browsing/whatever, will that make the game unplayable?

 

[Massive]

Lag is the time difference between the expected events and the actual events.

Internet connections are not constant, the data is being organized and shuttled around by a number of computers/routers before it reaches your machine. If the game packets are put on the bottom or top of the list to be transmitted, they may arrive later or sooner than they did the previous send.

The more bandwidth you are using from your connection, the higher the chance of your game packets getting stuck further back in the list. Everyone has a maximum amount of data they can send (usually much smaller than they can receive) and it ends up being the bottleneck for online gaming.

Even if you have a reasonably studly 1Mbps upstream, that translates to about 2.1KB/frame that you can actually send through your connection, total.
All internet usage all takes a slice out of this pie and can lead to your packet getting bumped to the next time the modem/router sends out a data load.

 

[fatman667]

Correct, we will only be supporting v1.02 NTSC. The only patcher we will include with the game is one which will patch your ISO to v1.02. The modifications to game code I make will be inserted via Dolphin's AR code support, so modifying the ISO is not necessary for that.

We don't want to support multiple versions because it would be silly to fragment the community and have you only able to play against 1/2 the people, those which share your version. It makes more sense to put the entire player base into one group with the same game version.

Well thanks for the info and I just hope that the patcher for the iso has more operating system support than the other one.

 

[Sangoku]

Lag is the time difference between the expected events and the actual events.

Internet connections are not constant, the data is being organized and shuttled around by a number of computers/routers before it reaches your machine. If the game packets are put on the bottom or top of the list to be transmitted, they may arrive later or sooner than they did the previous send.

The more bandwidth you are using from your connection, the higher the chance of your game packets getting stuck further back in the list. Everyone has a maximum amount of data they can send (usually much smaller than they can receive) and it ends up being the bottleneck for online gaming.

Even if you have a reasonably studly 1Mbps upstream, that translates to about 2.1KB/frame that you can actually send through your connection, total.
All internet usage all takes a slice out of this pie and can lead to your packet getting bumped to the next time the modem/router sends out a data load.

Thanks for the explanation. If I understood correctly, as long as I keep my ****ty connection, SSBMO will lag the same way kaillera does and I should increase my speed (down and up)?

 

[Dan Salvato]

Thanks for the explanation. If I understood correctly, as long as I keep my ****ty connection, SSBMO will lag the same way kaillera does and I should increase my speed (down and up)?

SSBMO might work a bit better than Kaillera because it's P2P, but if your connection is *awful* then you'll still have trouble. Down/up bandwidth is less important than ping, so see what you can do to improve your ping.

 

[Morin0]

SSBMO might work a bit better than Kaillera because it's P2P, but if your connection is *awful* then you'll still have trouble. Down/up bandwidth is less important than ping, so see what you can do to improve your ping.

If it's P2P, there's little to nothing you can do about your ping since it'll be determined by how far you are from your opponent for the most part. Smash 64 has P2P as well but is still riddened by its poor netcode so yeah, your delay will be much less compared to when you're connected to a server, it will generally run smoother, but it will still desynchronize. If all goes as planned, SSBMO will not

 

[Dan Salvato]

If it's P2P, there's little to nothing you can do about your ping since it'll be determined by how far you are from your opponent for the most part.

Yeah, I know, but there are small steps you can take such as improving your wireless signal, switching to wired, changing your internet service plan...

 

[zZz]

When can I look forward to using this? I want to send some money your way upon completion.

 

[Morin0]

Eh, that's mostly if you're trying to get out of your way to get a certain delay with someone that is just not possible. For example, I live in the west coast and if I wanted to play someone from the east coast, I should not expect low delay no matter how good my internet is and if I'm connected through ethernet. You can't defy the speed of light

The only real working solution that I can see is changing your ISP that has a different traceroute and see if that's better. But again, I doubt someone would change their ISP just to get slightly better ping with someone.

I think for most people the ping they get with the people they're going to play with (most likely in their own state or region) will be good enough. Which reminds me, will you guys include the option to spoof your delay? Kaillera's p2p has that option and it works if both yours and your opponent's internet connection can handle the heavier load. Also, the Kaillera client has a ping spoof and that works as well. It only works if you change it to something moderate. For example, if I get 6 frames, I can ping spoof down to 5. Anything below that and I will start to lag.

I'm constantly doing online gaming and there's a few other computers in the house that are being used and I do not lag. Sangoku, I'd invest in a better internet service plan like IE suggested or maybe a router that handles bandwidth more efficiently.

 

[Turnerfield77]

I know a lobbying system is in the works, but what about a friends list system? Will you be able to search for an IP address or have someway of connecting with regulars?

 

[Dan Salvato]

I know a lobbying system is in the works, but what about a friends list system? Will you be able to search for an IP address or have someway of connecting with regulars?

Ideally this will be possible, but we're not going to look that far ahead until we work out some of the fundamental issues holding us back.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=327118

 

[Massive]

I think we'll stick with 1.2.

We can patch 1.0 behaviors back in if it becomes a problem, but 1.2 fixes a lot of bugs that aren't apparent in regular gameplay. Honestly we'd have used PAL if there weren't so many character differences.

 

[Kaffie]

Would it be possible to make it easier to do the name entry glitch? Like having a specific buttom for it or something. Not that it's a huge deal, but with my very limited understanding of programming I imagine that it would be pretty easy to do.

 

[Dan Salvato]

Would it be possible to make it easier to do the name entry glitch? Like having a specific buttom for it or something. Not that it's a huge deal, but with my very limited understanding of programming I imagine that it would be pretty easy to do.

In order to start the game with one player? We will support that with no need to use a glitch. In fact, by the time we release, we likely won't be using Melee's native character select menu, but our own instead.

 

[strawhats]

Can't wait for this to be completed. It won't ever fully replace the interaction of human play, but it will make for an interesting development in the community (who knows online tutoring/tournaments)

kind of excited

 

[Eggm]

I'm gonna main ganon in melee online.

 

[Dan Salvato]

Anyone have experience in Unity?

 

[RFrizzle]

God I just want this **** to be done I'm so excited.

 

[Bones0]

I'm gonna main ganon in melee online.

ro fl

 

[Eggm]

ro fl

I'm serious, with 1 or 2 frames of lag, he is going to be top tier. Plus, ganon is fun.

 

[standardtoaster]

ganon is a wifi warrior

 

[Fuzzyness]

bedroom warriors on dat ganon

he may top fox

 

[Turnerfield77]

when this comes out, my xbox live subscription might as well disappear, because this is the only game i'll be playing online

 

[dkuo]

will playing dolphin on a crt monitor be comparable to playing a cube on a crt tv? <_<

 

[Dan Salvato]

will playing dolphin on a crt monitor be comparable to playing a cube on a crt tv? <_<

Most PC monitors have no input lag.

HDTVs have input lag because the image needs to be processed before displaying on the screen. PCs simply send raw data straight to the monitor, which is displayed immediately (5ms). This means there will be no input lag regardless of your monitor.

 

[ajp_anton]

Many LCD computer screens have LOTS of input lag in addition to the pixel response time. Except dedicated gaming monitors that are designed to be fast and low quality.
But the bigger, higher quality ones typically have about 20-30ms of lag, even if some of them have a gaming mode.

 

[Dan Salvato]

Many LCD computer screens have LOTS of input lag in addition to the pixel response time. Except dedicated gaming monitors that are designed to be fast and low quality.
But the bigger, higher quality ones typically have about 20-30ms of lag, even if some of them have a gaming mode.

Sorry, I stand corrected, I guess I'm just used to my gaming monitors, haha.

 

[Hm say soriah ya]

So this is still being developed right? You guys haven't updated your website since June. I thought I'd register here and give you some encouragement in the form of currency. If you finished this I'd be more than willing to shell out $50 for it.

 

[Dan Salvato]

So this is still being developed right? You guys haven't updated your website since June. I thought I'd register here and give you some encouragement in the form of currency. If you finished this I'd be more than willing to shell out $50 for it.

Thanks for the offer. Massive has been working on the engine recently. We haven't updated for so long because there hasn't been any real news to report, but we'll likely be updating soon. As for donations, we don't currently have plans to start taking money, because the project hasn't really cost anything yet. In the future, I might take donations to keep server costs at bay. But, we're not doing this with plans to pocket any money. We just want to play Smash with lots of people. :]