Melee Online: Progress Report

[rawrimamonster]

Thanks for the offer. Massive has been working on the engine recently. We haven't updated for so long because there hasn't been any real news to report, but we'll likely be updating soon. As for donations, we don't currently have plans to start taking money, because the project hasn't really cost anything yet. In the future, I might take donations to keep server costs at bay. But, we're not doing this with plans to pocket any money. We just want to play Smash with lots of people. :]

AS DO I! I cant wait to unleash ten ***** on everyone.

Spoiler

being realistic its been 4-5 years since i've gone to a tourney, I just want to play ppl again damnit. at least i kept my good tech skill

 

[Hai Im Fearless]

I'm a programmer and best peach in FL, is there any way I can help?

 

[Massive]

I'm a programmer and best peach in FL, is there any way I can help?

Can you implement a way to CPU throttle between the video thread and the CPU thread in multithread mode like is done in single core mode? That's currently a limiting issue for online playspeed, as there are issues with input timing and frame limiting in multi-core mode. It's a known issue with the dolphin team and they're apparently out of ideas as well.

Additionally if you have any insights to sync random seed between instances that doesn't rely on network latency (time sync schemes are my current idea, but even they can be desynced based on packet latency) I'd love to hear them.

If you know anything about directX optimization or JIT compiler speed-ups that'd be great as well. Getting the game to run in single core mode at full speed would be a great workaround instead of fixing dual core throttle.

 

[Bones0]

Oh, well if I had known you guys were working on such trivial problems, I would have offered my services a while ago.

 

[Dan Salvato]

Lol'd hard.

But on a serious note, if you have experience with (or are willing to learn) the Unity engine then I am interested in your assistance.

 

[Bones0]

As soon as I get through Intro to Programming, I'll get right on that.

 

[Dan Salvato]

SSBM Online main menu track! http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/507733
Enjoy :D

 

[ZeldaFreak0309]

that was sick

why so talented InternetExplorer

Edit: dude the bass synth you used at the beginning made me realize the melee theme might actually be from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM5nOBgpDsQ i think they have the same chord progression

 

[rawrimamonster]

Everytime this is bumped I get hopes that you've made progress with the dualcore issue. Sucks that unity is a pain in the *** to learn as far as i've heard.

 

[KrIsP!]

That is sick IE, now I have something to pump me up while loading a match.

 

[Roysourboy666]

YOU GUYZ ( Massive and IE) ARE GODZ !!!!!!! We all cheer for your success in this INCREDIBLY HARD project !!! A new smash scene will arrive !!! I'm so HAYPE about this ! I just found out the project 2 days ago( I read all the progress made in the thread ) !! I wish you guyz great success( because luck , is , well, anyway) !!!
Looking foward to it !!
YOU GUIZ ARE ON PH1R3!!!!!!!!!

 

[Dan Salvato]

dude the bass synth you used at the beginning made me realize the melee theme might actually be from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM5nOBgpDsQ i think they have the same chord progression

I noticed that the first day I played Melee, lol. I've been telling everybody and I can't believe people don't make the connection. The melody in each song is very similar as well, though they diverge in the second half.

edit: Thanks for the positive comments on the song! Keep in mind the Menu, Lobby Room and Character Select will each have a different track.

Everytime this is bumped I get hopes that you've made progress with the dualcore issue. Sucks that unity is a pain in the *** to learn as far as i've heard.

I found someone who is experienced with Unity. Also, we're putting a hold on the dual-core issue for a little bit while Massive finishes the fundamental syncing algorithm. But, we do have a couple ideas on how to solve it.

 

[Turnerfield77]

I noticed the other post about the dolphin emulator; however, this seems like a more solid project. The work you guys are putting in is ridiculous so I imagine the end result will be quite a bit more stable

 

[Makkun]

Hey, all. I'm the guy from the Melee Dolphin netplay thread. Just popping in to let anyone know if they want a taste of playing Melee online (not to be confused with THIS Melee Online) that it's possible right now. Just follow the instructions in the thread I just linked. We also want people to try and find problems that our method may have. We'd love to use our findings to help this Melee Online project come to full fruition, as we're totally stoked about all the changes these guys are bringing to the table. Turnerfield is right, this Melee Online project is great, but we're hoping to kickstart an online Melee community. There isn't anything "unstable" or unsafe, per se, about using Dolphin to play online, but there are challenges and hurdles to overcome (most of these, Massive and IE are trying to fix with Melee Online anyway). Maybe it will even raise more interest in the official Melee Online project! When there is finally a release hopefully there will already be a network of online Melee veterans willing to play right off the bat.

 

[hectohertz]

hey ie can i get a shotout for helping out a little on the reversing

i mean i did like 1% of the work you did, but i found a cool memloc or two :D


nah but hope you guys are doing well, will hopefully help out again during christmas break

 

[Sixth-Sense]

Question: I'm a little confused between melee netplay and this melee online.....what's the difference? sorry for the ignorance.

 

[Makkun]

Sorry for the confusion :X Melee netplay just means using "vanilla" Melee and Dolphin's netplay function to play online. This Melee Online project is a little more involved. It seems they are actually changing Melee to be more optimized for online play. They're also adding things like true widescreen and HD 2D graphics.

 

[Dan Salvato]

Question: I'm a little confused between melee netplay and this melee online.....what's the difference? sorry for the ignorance.

Netplay is simply using Dolphin's built-in 'Netplay' feature to play Melee online. There are many issues with this:
1. You need a REALLY fast PC to play at full speed
2. The interface is garbage
3. You're likely to desync quickly, possibly even during the first match

SSBMO fixes all of these issues. We implement a custom data sync algorithm which keeps games synced indefinitely. We're going to optimize Dolphin for Melee so that even older PCs, and laptops, can play at full speed. Finally, we're doing away with Melee menus entirely; the entire game will have a custom interface for simple and pleasant navigation, along with many features not previously available in Melee. This includes connecting with other players in a lobby room, sharing custom content such as textures, and a Ranked Match system with your own player score. Essentially, SSBMO is the Melee we know and love, brought into the modern era of PC gaming.

 

[Massive]

New post on the blog, for all interested parties.

 

[Dan Salvato]

New post on the blog, for all interested parties.

I'm an interested party ;D

In other news, ssbmo.com is now the top result in a Google search for "melee online"!

Massive and I will be working hard on UI and optimization over the next while.

 

[KnitePhox]

sucks that you guys are hogging it when everyone wants to play, who cares if its not "done"...why not just let people try it in "alpha" or "beta" form..?

 

[C.SDK]

sucks that you guys are hogging it when everyone wants to play, who cares if its not "done"...why not just let people try it in "alpha" or "beta" form..?

They'll release it when they feel it's ready. I don't think the SSBMO team ever did say that they won't release a beta build so that people can try it out; they just haven't gotten to that point yet.

New post on the blog, for all interested parties.

This is great news!

Is the Dolphin build mentioned in the blog post readily available to download somewhere?

 

[Dan Salvato]

Yes, if you guys are eager to test out basic Melee netplay then download the latest Dolphin build from here: http://dolphin-emulator.com/download.html

We haven't released anything because it's not in a form which is convenient for people to play. We'd like to put together a decent UI before starting distribution.

 

[Massive]

sucks that you guys are hogging it when everyone wants to play, who cares if its not "done"...why not just let people try it in "alpha" or "beta" form..?

Have you ever had someone judge you based on a work in progress? You can't turn in a half page of a rough draft as a final paper and expect to do well, why should we be expected to give access to an unfinished alpha?

Some of the more recent updates by the dolphin team have rearranged our priorities pretty substantially, moving things forward by several months. If you're still impatient you can already play online successfully using the more strictly deterministic builds of dolphin (3.0 r650+), I say go for it.

 

[Makkun]

I just checked out the new blog post. Awesome! I listened to IE's "The Comfy Room" track and now I can say I'm totally stoked for new menus with custom tracks like this.

 

[Fuzzyness]

hype =) it'll help a lot of people get better

 

[L-J]

Also very hyped for this!

 

[JMC4789]

Netplay is simply using Dolphin's built-in 'Netplay' feature to play Melee online. There are many issues with this:
1. You need a REALLY fast PC to play at full speed
2. The interface is garbage
3. You're likely to desync quickly, possibly even during the first match

I don't think you're looking at the whole picture when saying this. In fact, I've actually heard contradictory statements from the Dolphin forums on what builds to use. Using 787 for Melee would just slow you down in comparison to 3.0. As Massive said, the netplay hasn't really changed all that much. If anything, by saying to use latest build, you're only pushing the system requirements even higher without much reason... you could just look at my results to see that.

1. Is going to be true even with your FPS codes; though they are great for those with computers three to four years old. I understand one of your goals is to make Melee sync with dualcore, but maybe a better solution would be to accept the high system requirements for now and get your system working without it.

2. Interface... as in Dolphin's menus? I'm going to guess that's what you mean at least, and respectfully disagree. The interface isn't easy if you're doing something as particular as Melee netplay, but for just using the emulator and trying out settings, it's perfectly useable and on par with any other emulator. If we hack Dolphin too far, we may lose the support of the devs, which is why code needs to be as version independent as possible.

3. While I know you've had problems with this, I've pulled people off the forums, setup dolphin, and on the very first try synced for 45+ minutes. There's even a video that was live streamed.

I do agree wholeheartedly with you on making things easier for people going forward. There are features that would be great and help people for using Super Smash Bros. Melee over the internet.

I really hope Melee Online works out, but when we seem to be getting completely different information from the Dolphin devs, including the fact one of the people I worked with AND synced a few rounds with on Melee's netplay is a reputable dolphin tester.

Edit: Yeah, the dolphin devs say you're more likely to get a desync with newer revisions and have recommended 3.0 before, right on their forums, just do a simple search.

 

[Dan Salvato]

1. We're going to be performing much more optimization aside from my FPS codes. Massive is dissecting the pixel shader as we speak. The codes are a last resort for those with a very low-powered PC. As for dual-core, it works fine starting with build 650; see point 3. However, we're also going to look into how pad data is sent, because a low pad buffer results in an enormous performance hit. The competitive players on this board will not settle for a pad buffer higher than 6.

2. We're building a custom UI from scratch. We won't be using Melee's menus nor Dolphin's. There should be no need for a tutorial or instruction set, as we will have an installer do all the work for you. Also, we'll be modifying Dolphin as little as possible to make pulling new builds painless.

3. Massive and I spoke to a couple lead Dolphin engineers who provided insight. Build 650 addresses Gamecube clock issues which have greatly enhanced emulator determinism. Starting from build 650, GCN emulation is far more deterministic, meaning the same things are likely to be happening on both clients. This is why we recommend later builds, and our testing agrees.

After testing and speaking with Dolphin devs, Massive and I agree with you that Melee is now playable via netplay, but the requirements are extraordinary and the overall experience is sub-par. However, we don't discourage people from trying it out and having fun.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

Netplay is simply using Dolphin's built-in 'Netplay' feature to play Melee online. There are many issues with this:
1. You need a REALLY fast PC to play at full speed
2. The interface is garbage
3. You're likely to desync quickly, possibly even during the first match

SSBMO fixes all of these issues. We implement a custom data sync algorithm which keeps games synced indefinitely. We're going to optimize Dolphin for Melee so that even older PCs, and laptops, can play at full speed. Finally, we're doing away with Melee menus entirely; the entire game will have a custom interface for simple and pleasant navigation, along with many features not previously available in Melee. This includes connecting with other players in a lobby room, sharing custom content such as textures, and a Ranked Match system with your own player score. Essentially, SSBMO is the Melee we know and love, brought into the modern era of PC gaming.

I can u-use m-m-my l-laptop :

You guys are on the same level as Ken to me respect wise...........and i love you both (no homo)

 

[nmn]

Hey guys, I'm very curious to see how exactly Dolphin is able to maintain sync on netplay with dual-core enabled. I have checked commits around the time of build '650' but there's not really much of interest.

Something that IS of interest: On Dolphin's git change list, there appears to not be a 650. 645 jumps straight to 651, and the revisions are subsequent in the git repo. If I had to make a guess, I would say 650 was based on the gx-optimizations branch, but that was merged in at 651 anyway.

Here's a list of them going backwards from build 651.

revision cf69e7ca8ad7 - build 651: Merge branch 'gx-optimization'

This branch reduces the number of useless state flushes in the video
emulation layer by checking whether a BP/XF change will have an effect
or not. Greatly reduces the number of GL calls per frame.

Thanks to degasus for his help!

revision 4131ca8d386e - build 645: Merge branch 'hires-tex-improvements'

revision 1bc5f41e40e6 - build 643: Fix a data endianness problem introduced by r7cccb4baa724.

revision c95baf614d26 - build 642: Avoid changing video state on useless BP writes

When a game writes the same value that was already configured to a BP
register, Dolphin previously flushed the GPU pipeline and reconfigured
the internal video state (calling SetScissor/SetLineWidth/SetDepthMode).

Some of these useless writes still need to perform actions, for example
writes to the EFB copy trigger or the texture preload registers (which
need to reload the texture from memory).

Can you please either link to a relevant build or changeset? At this point I'm skeptical that they were able to accomplish this. Dual core mode doesn't sync because game behavior can subtly change if the cores are not in lockstep. Putting them in lockstep while using multiple threads sounds like it would subvert the benefits. There are certainly ways to do it, but this is the first I've heard anything like this going into Dolphin.

 

[KnitePhox]

Have you ever had someone judge you based on a work in progress? You can't turn in a half page of a rough draft as a final paper and expect to do well, why should we be expected to give access to an unfinished alpha?

Some of the more recent updates by the dolphin team have rearranged our priorities pretty substantially, moving things forward by several months. If you're still impatient you can already play online successfully using the more strictly deterministic builds of dolphin (3.0 r650+), I say go for it.

never been judged that way, nope; and i doubt MOST PEOPLE would see it as a "final paper" if you clearly state that its in ALPHA/BETA form, but i see how SOME might view it as such, being hard-headed/ignorant to the terminology. not expected, would be awesome though

thanks for your work, much appreciated even with no release; lest this be some sort of huge crafty troll

Spoiler

in which case, bravo

i'm quite hype for this, because people with budget and old machines being able to play online = more people to play with. i wonder if there will be any kind of chat room like kaillera's server chat that everyone can use to chat with everyone while in or out of sessions

 

[Izuhu]

When you guys are done with a stable build where everybody can play, can you take the idea of maybe making a leaderboards system. That'll be pretty legit c:

 

[Dan Salvato]

Massive and I are requesting this thread to be locked. We will create a new thread when we feel the need to release new developments. Would a mod be so kind?