Melee Netplay - The Future is Now (New and improved!)

[Dan Salvato]

Yes it does >.>. I just tested it.

Is there some other option that causes desyncs? Because simply enabling dualcore on build 651 will cause desyncs in Dolphin.

I'll do further testing in optimal conditions later on tonight... if you're right, it really does change everything. Here's to hoping!

Disable Idle Skipping, and use LLE Audio. Those are, I think, the only two factors that affect determinism. But, Fuzzyness and I had an extended play session without desyncing.

 

[JMC4789]

Alright. I'll try it with idle skipping disabled, dualcore on. Thanks. I'm not sure how much idle skipping is worth, though, because idle skipping is fine to use in older builds, but dualcore isn't. I'll do some testing with NMN later.

 

[nmn]

Tested 3.0-782 JIT64 DC LLE Audio, Same computer, Idle skipping off, Dual core on, same config, same memory card... and immediately, the RNG is desynced, and causes the two players to desync.



I don't know what to say. I didn't even get a match in before it had a problem.

Edit: It says 782, but the official revision for it is 791, according to the website. Their build system is confusing. I probably didn't rerun cmake or something. In any case, it is the latest code, as I've verified, the only differences are ones I needed for it to compile with GCC 4.7.

 

[rokimomi]

Rokimomi: You need to just hold enter through them all for right now. Dolphin's cheats for Melee are broken. AFter you get through them all it'll work as intended and you can enter in new cheats without errors.

Oops, sorry for double post, forgot how I was the last person to post when going through the thread and making sure all the questions were answered.

Thanks, didn't see at first that the AR codes it was popping up were different codes.

Also, all this talk about audio settings, is turning the audio completely off not an option to avoid the desyncs?

 

[Izuhu]

We should take the first step by executing the obvious by getting rid of any background processes that'll probably interfere with the CPU during online play. For example browser, programs , and etc. We'll also have to specify the best max resolution to play online with because playing at a high, max, or full-screen resolution is guaranteed to cause lag.

 

[JMC4789]

You can! Select the HLE audio option and on the bottom where it has audio backend, select no audio output. That will allow you to sync with other players using no audio.

And, Internet Explorer, I tested Dualcore on, Idle Skipping off, along with hte rest of my settings I use for syncing in older versions, and it desynced immediately over LAN. Could you provide some video on how to set it up and it working please?

As of now, I can confirm to everyone that dualcore being on will cause desyncs on ANY build of dolphin. If you're using completely non-random characters, you may be able to do a round or two without problems. But, that's the very maximum that you will get out of dualcore. If you're looking to play extended rounds with any character on any stage without fear of desync, I don't care what build you're on, you cannot use Dualcore.

Because resolution relies on the graphics card. Providing your graphics card is good, you can crank up the resolution as high as you want without slowing down the game. Everything else relies on the CPU, so 640x480 and 1080p will result in very little difference in FPS for most people. Though, it is recommended you try to run it without netplay first to see if you can stably do 60 fps at a high resolution.

 

[Dan Salvato]

It seems everybody is getting mixed results. Fuzzyness and I very successfully remained synced in dual-core while Massive and I constantly desync regardless of settings and build.

Fuzzyness and I tested RNG under dual-core and it worked just fine.

 

[JMC4789]

Then you can't say it syncs... just because two computers luckily sync for a few rounds does not mean you can say dualcore works. That's irresponsible at best.

The reason we say our settings work is because EVERY computer we've tested it on has been able to sync without ANY issues whatsoever.

Could you show a video of your setup and recording with Fuzzyness, I'd love to try and mimic between all of my computers and see if maybe two testers could sync out of luck as well.

 

[Fuzzyness]

So why is it LLE gives me frame rate slowdown randomly, where as HLE works completely fine?

ah xaudio 2 doesnt work well with LLE it seems

 

[nmn]

LLE is bound by the CPU emulation timings, which is why it is deterministic. To my understanding, HLE skips the DSP microcode emulation and instead tries to imitate the code at a higher level. The audio DMA period seems to be ignored with HLE: it probably polls for audio whenever the system buffer runs low.

In other words, LLE puts more stress on the CPU emulation because it causes there to be shortly fired interrupts (a rate of 4khz, if I'm not mistaking.) Offloading some work to another thread helps a bit, but it will never be as fast as HLE.

I think it is possible to do HLE and have netplay sync, but it requires some code to be rewritten, and I need to understand more about the GCN, and how Dolphin emulates DSP (both in HLE and LLE) before I can embark on such a task.

 

[Fuzzyness]

I got 2 clean games out of my friend who lives in UK using LLE + DSound, dual core, idle skipping on 60FPS

the random factor was desynched after the second game, we tested it after second and it came up with a different random char result on each screen.
It desynched completely on the 3rd game

So if we kept resetting every game or two games we'd get clean games . If SSBMO idea works then it'd save a lot of time of having to reset the emulator and everything and go through debug automatically.

It's a shame this emulator refuses to stay in sync longterm currently

 

[nmn]

Well, did you invoke any 'random' behaviors, e.g. Game and Watch's hammer? It seems that sync is maintained until something random occurs. I haven't done exhaustive research on why dual-core causes unpredictable behavior on our two computers, but the only noticeable side-effect is the fact that the RNG does not sync, and apparently it can also fall out of sync during load screens (but doesn't always.)

I'm testing on the same computer, so I'd like to think that the tests are pretty "clean."

edit: Sorry, I posted before you edited. Yeah, being able to resync is a good idea, and I hate to duplicate code, but I'm highly interested in attempting to implement this feature myself. If it's desyncing only between rounds, and nixing randoms is enough to make dual core work for this game, that would be possibly solvable. At the same time, though, the important thing is that we can play right now, with any character, only issue being the CPU tax of single core. This is what our thread is all about.

 

[Fuzzyness]

yeah it only desynched AFTER we did the random thing actually

which means peach + G&W prob wont be usable LOL

 

[Makkun]

I got 2 clean games out of my friend who lives in UK using LLE + DSound, dual core, idle skipping on 60FPS

the random factor was desynched after the first/second game, we tested it after second and it came up with a different random char result on each screen.
It desynched completely on the 3rd game

So if we kept resetting every game or two games we'd get clean games . If SSBMO idea works then it'd save a lot of time of having to reset the emulator and everything and go through debug automatically.

This is what I thought. It's what I posted in the OP:

"Dualcore has to be off for long-term syncing (this is recommended by Dolphin when you start netplay). With Melee, I can almost guarantee the first match will sync even with Dualcore on. But it's almost guaranteed it will then DEsync at the second round, unless you're using two non-random characters on a non-random stage (Battlefield or FD without Peach's turnips or G&W's hammer, for example)."

So it IS true that you can play with Dual Core on without desyncing, as long as there's no random elements?

 

[Fuzzyness]

I believe so Makkun =) so no Peach + G&W + Random Select

it only desynched with IE too after I picked up a peach turnip and got a stitch first time

I have a pretty reasonable computer, and it doesnt seem to run very nice stilli in single core? I did all the settings you recommended
It really only works *REASONABLY* with the 30fps code but not amazing

 

[JMC4789]

If you just turn dualcore off you could play whatever you wanted without issues. Well, other than slowdown if you have an old computer.

Also, you don't need a build newer than 650 to do that, in fact, it's faster to use 3.0 if you're just going to sync like that

 

[Dan Salvato]

JMC, I recommend you talk to the Dolphin engineers on IRC: #dolphin-emu at EFNET (irc.umich.edu)

 

[leffen]

I cant get the 30fps code to work q_q. It says its active but i dont notice anything

 

[JMC4789]

I'm not a big coder, so I didn't go. But, NMN did, and, he's organizing what they said right now

 

[voorhese]

I am very interested in this! I have actually owned a usb item that allows me to use ps1/2 xbox OR gamecube controllers on my PC (I may still own it). If this works, and it has a couple frames of lag, sure it will be a little annoying but will help immensely with breaking local metagame syndrome imo and help players improve on their mental play! (unless of course we can get PERFECT gameplay in the future, then it will be the most amazing thing of ALL TIME)

after informing mango of this thread, he responded with "I CANT WAIT TO **** ARMADA ALL DAY"

 

[JMC4789]

When doing 3 or more players, it can be a lag fest, if it's person to person, you'll probably get 1/10th of a second or less of lag. I usually get 3 frames of lag when playing people from other states.

 

[nmn]

JMC, I recommend you talk to the Dolphin engineers on IRC: #dolphin-emu at EFNET (irc.umich.edu)

Listen. We're not interested in a "he-said-she-said" debate. I went onto #dolphin-emu on EFnet. From what I can tell, you got your information from somebody who was not a Dolphin developer, and they were simply trying to get you to leave. The only build they mentioned was 678, one that improved save states. That's it. No relevant improvements on 650.

I don't want to stir the pot any longer. We have had exactly 0 failures to synchronize with our settings, even across the globe, and multiple with your suggested settings. If you are genuinely having syncing issues with our recommended configuration and build, we are sorry for you, but others here can confirm that our setup has worked fine for them across multiple matches.

We don't want drama. Please don't spread false information in our thread, and definitely do not bother the Dolphin developers over this issue any further. They are busy enough as it is.

 

[fatman667]

I cant get the 30fps code to work q_q. It says its active but i dont notice anything

IE and Massive makes their AR codes specifically for Melee V1.2, so make sure you have 1.2 or else it PROBABLY won't work.

 

[Izuhu]

Our 30 FPS hack is not available for consumption yet, sorry. I have no compiler environment for Windows or OS X (I'm working on Windows right now, I'll need to put thought into OS X. Hackintosh is hard, and last I did a proper hackintosh was 10.6.)


Let's hope so, but in the meantime I remain skeptical until further information is posted. I know it's possible, but they're saying it works with vanilla Dolphin, and I have not reproduced that behavior.

Try to avoid using dualcore, because if you use dualcore it will desync. Using the 30 fps hack will allow you to get similar performance as dualcore, but, both players need to be using the hack. And then, you need to make sure you set your FPS limit to 30, last I checked.

Our framerate hack isn't ready for release yet, but when it is, you'll be able to use the hacks without messing up audio.

This one million times. The codes you were using most likely doesn't work.

 

[Jonny Westside]

I've got a problem with getting the game to recognize that there are two players. So my friend and I have enabled the second port on our emulators (3.0-787) and we get on netplay with the 30 FPS code on the 1.02 version of melee. Once were on the CSS my friend (who is hosting) can't see me at all when I move or choose a character, but I can see him do everything aside from playing.

Apparently when he continues on to stage selection I am left behind on the CSS while he fights a CPU lol Can anyone help me with this controller dilemma?

 

[JMC4789]

Does it work without the codes?

Anyway, assuming it doesn't, have you made sure in the GC tab within the configuration panel that you both have two controllers selected? If not, the emulator won't recognize that there are multiple players over netplay and will not send inputs from the second player.

 

[Jonny Westside]

Does it work without the codes?

Anyway, assuming it doesn't, have you made sure in the GC tab within the configuration panel that you both have two controllers selected? If not, the emulator won't recognize that there are multiple players over netplay and will not send inputs from the second player.

Alright we fixed that. Now our main issue is syncing with each other. We're both using the same version game but I think our memorycards are a bit different. I tried clicking on the link provided in the OP but the link is broken for some reason.

is there anything else that might desync a match?

 

[JMC4789]

if the link is broken, you can always send each other your memory cards, you don't have to use ours. As long as the two memory cards are the same, it doesn't matter what they are.

Other important settings include:

Dualcore set to off (Location, Configuration panel)
DSP set to LLE OR HLE with no audio backend. (DSP settings panel)

If you need more information on settings and getting speedups, try going to the first post. We recommend using older builds because they are faster, but you shouldn't have syncing problems with newer builds according to our research.

 

[Jonny Westside]

if the link is broken, you can always send each other your memory cards, you don't have to use ours. As long as the two memory cards are the same, it doesn't matter what they are.

Other important settings include:

Dualcore set to off (Location, Configuration panel)
DSP set to LLE OR HLE with no audio backend. (DSP settings panel)

If you need more information on settings and getting speedups, try going to the first post. We recommend using older builds because they are faster, but you shouldn't have syncing problems with newer builds according to our research.

We're trying version 305 and it's giving us an AR Code error. It says the line of code is incorrect or something and it keeps going on and on about it. The windows won't stop and I'm forced to close the emulator. I'm running on 64bit while my friend is on 32bit, still the same problem.

 

[JMC4789]

I'm sorry about that error in the build, but if you hold enter all the way through it, eventually it will stop whining and let you enter the code. Try the build without the code even if it's slow and see if you guys can sync.

We'll probably change our recommended build soon considering how many people are using AR codes. But yeah, holding enter will eventually brute force your way past the errors and you can enter the speedup codes.

The reason it does this is because Dolphin's action replay codes are setup for another version of Melee and it doesn't recognize that there are multiple versions yet; at least that's my theory. At least in the older build. Or action replay codes may just be broke period in that build... it's not something we thought to test our first time through.

 

[KnitePhox]

goddamn, barely got home, **** emergency work


feel free to put the link of my vid in the op, NOW i will upload on youtube so it will stay permanently on the web etc....

UNLESS anyone wants to play version 1.02 vs/with me RIGHT NOW..?

 

[JMC4789]

Sorry KnitePhox, I can't play tonight, unfortunately, got classes early in the morning. We need to Smash64 and Melee again soon though! Hopefully you'll find someone to play.

 

[Jonny Westside]

It also deletes the AR code I create for 30fps.....D:

 

[JMC4789]

Oi, stupid build; I didn't anticipate it to act like this. You can try a newer build from the Dolphin site, the build you were using with the settings I recommended or you can try an older build like 3.0 with the settings. I honestly don't know what to say about build 305 except that we will be finding a better build soon.

 

[Jonny Westside]

Heh well we managed to get a game going without desyncs on 3.0-787 with the recommended settings and dual core off. very slow framerate but we expected it since my friend was using a really crappy computer. ugh this 30fps was suppose to fix that right? Like help out bad computers to run the game

Edit: Find me at http://xat.com/dabessdi if you guys wanna play

I'm TheDukeofNukes on the chat, please change your name when you get there if you are assigned a randomly generated username and ask for me. Thanks

 

[King Funk]

For all Europeans here, I'm currently creating a Windows Live group just like the Smash64 one for Online Melee. I'll post the link to it very soon. Get hype!

 

[Makkun]

I'll be re-organizing the OP and including a more comprehensive configuration guide over the next day or so. I can't believe how quickly this is taking off! Soon we'll have a community of online players!!!

 

[Dr Peepee]

oh my gosh what is going on here what

 

[JMC4789]

Oh, nothing much, we're all just successfully playing Melee using Dolphin's netplay.

 

[rokimomi]

Dunno how much of an influence you guys have on the dolphin devs, or if this exists already, but is there a way to export and import settings so you don't have to spend time checking if both players are running the same configs?