Melee Air dodge VS Brawl Air dodge! Discuss, which one should be in Brawl+?

[MBlaze]

I prefer Brawl Air dodge over Melee Air dodge in Brawl BUT, I think it needs tweaking. What I propose that we do is make a code that only allows one Brawl air dodge only BUT doesn't send you into a helpless state, just not able to Air Dodge again.

I don't think that Melee Air dodge belongs in Brawl because:

A. Gives very little momentum in air compared to Melee imo.

B. Invincibility frames don't even do much.

C. Areails last longer in the air in Brawl (Ex: R.O.B.'s N air, Mario's D air, Pit's N and U air, Snake's N and D air for example plus the stale move system.)

D. Complaints and criticism of "Melee 2.0" focus on the Melee air dodge and wavedashing and such.

Why my idea should be given a try:

A. Time for a new air dodge system.

B. Designed for Brawl unlike Melee Air dodge and suits the game better.

Ex: Say MK is off the stage and does the shuttle loop (Up B for those who don't know) and this hapoens a lot, with Melee Air dodge there's a great chance your dead no matter what you do if your that far off and it would give characters with multiple jumps dominance over those who do not.

C. Wavedashing is a hell of a lot simpler to do now and can be stacked.

D. Brawl is a slower moving game than Melee which means it's way easier to get hit with Melee's Air dodge because the moves have more of an opportunity to hit you.

E. Eliminates some criticism of Brawl+ instead of "go play Melee".

So yeah, if we can get the Single Brawl Air Dodge code, that would be great. My reasons ^^^.

Also if anyone could tell me how to add a poll that would be great, thanks.

 

[Barge]

I really don't think melee vs brawl in any form is allowed.

But Melees air dodge allowed wave dashing, lololol.

Edit: Are you talking about brawl+ air dodge or regular brawl air dodge. You might need to make yourself more clearer when choosing the title.

 

[MuBa]

Lol we definitely need a Smash Lab room asap. It seems like we're going to have to debate a lot on what should be the standard for Brawl+

Also when making threads like these, make sure you add a poll too so we can get a better head count on who wants what.

 

[Almas]

To be honest, I prefer MAD, but I think Brawl Air Dodge should be used. The amount of lines of code required for MAD is far too many, and with the other codes we'd like to see added, there simply won't be enough room. The benefits aren't THAT great in terms of gameplay (apart from nostalgia), and the cost is simply too large.

 

[storm92]

I'd actually prefer some kind of middle ground here. Either we fix MAD and add landing lag, or we somehow tweak the BAD so you can't spam it all day while we can keep the current increased emphasis on edgeguarding.
Possibly only one BAD, but you can jump/upB/attack after it?

 

[metaXzero]

Why are their so many vs. threads now?

 

[Problem2]

The Brawl+ community is trying to decide on what gameplay changes they want in effect. In order for Brawl+ to succeed, when to have a unified decision on rules etc, so we need to discuss all the possibilities extensively.

 

[MBlaze]

Lol we definitely need a Smash Lab room asap. It seems like we're going to have to debate a lot on what should be the standard for Brawl+

Also when making threads like these, make sure you add a poll too so we can get a better head count on who wants what.

I know this is going to sound nooby but I don't know where the option is at.

 

[Sean²]

I'd actually prefer some kind of middle ground here. Either we fix MAD and add landing lag, or we somehow tweak the BAD so you can't spam it all day while we can keep the current increased emphasis on edgeguarding.
Possibly only one BAD, but you can jump/upB/attack after it?

This.

Wavedashing is alright and all, but it has no place in Brawl. Seriously, it just feels awkward and is far less useful.

 

[metaXzero]

This.

Wavedashing is alright and all, but it has no place in Brawl. Seriously, it just feels awkward and is far less useful.

wut?

It's uses are the same as in Melee (though everybody now has a good Wavedash). It's far from useless. Really, the current lack of a decent Dash Dance make it MORE useful. And why wouldn't it have no place in Brawl?

 

[CommanderCody08]

I love wavedashing and the old air dodges, but I'm also fine with brawl air doging. They had to change some stuff in the gameplay and I like how air dodging is less of a commitment in brawl.

 

[metaXzero]

A middle ground would be fine though. Maybe something like your first air-dodge is the Melee airdodge and subsequent ones are Brawl's until you land...

 

[Sean²]

I don't think it has a place because it was a Melee thing, shouldn't we be trying to make it into a different, more competitive experience?

And I should've said that I don't find it as useful. It feels too slow IMO and when I see people use it, it just looks like there's always a better option.

 

[metaXzero]

I don't think it has a place because it was a Melee thing, shouldn't we be trying to make it into a different, more competitive experience?

And I should've said that I don't find it as useful. It feels too slow IMO and when I see people use it, it just looks like there's always a better option.

Melee's airdodge won't make Brawl Melee. And it does make Brawl more competitive by giving more options for securing victory.

And I think that's just you.

As I said in my last post, a middle ground (like the one I made) would be nice.

 

[MBlaze]

The middle ground in my opinion and what I've been suggesting before is that we make a code that only allows 1 Brawl Air dodge or something, that would own.

This code that I want made doesn't relate to the gameplay but I think it would be extremely appreciated if we got an addition to the unlimited time replay by allowing names to show up in the replays. If we were to get that, that would be just completely convenient.

 

[metaXzero]

How about having just 2 airdodges? First Melee's, then Brawl's, after that, you can't airdodge until you land again.

I just like the options that come from Wavedashing. lol

 

[kupo15]

I like brawls air dodge. MAD has no place in brawl. I don't see why no one likes BAD. IMO they perfected air dodging. The side effects wavedashing are unbalanced and horrible. I kinda wish we didnt get these great codes to distract me from my video lol.

 

[metaXzero]

How is wavedashing in Brawl "unbalanced and horrible".

And as I said, some people (like myself) like the options Wavedash brings.

Saw my middle ground proposal last page?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Don't shorten Brawl Air Dodge to
BAD
as it spells out bad....which is just itchin to be exploited.

Oh ****...I just brought it to light...crap.

but ya..Bradge is way cooler than Madge.
Madge is a waste of code.
Now...Melee Hookshot......heh...

 

[kupo15]

How is wavedashing in Brawl "unbalanced and horrible".

And as I said, some people (like myself) like the options Wavedash brings.

Saw my middle ground proposal last page?

You mean overpowered options. Besides, wavedashing lost several uses it had anyway. Ill let my vid speak for itself. Let me see if I can work on it tonight. I have the footage, just need to add voice and music.

Don't shorten Brawl Air Dodge to
BAD
as it spells out bad....which is just itchin to be exploited.

Oh ****...I just brought it to light...crap.

but ya..Bradge is way cooler than Madge.
Madge is a waste of code.
Now...Melee Hookshot......heh...

Please, id be more happy with this than MAD. I will never play with MAD because it is just that bad.
"Madge" is just a waste of coding your right. If you wanted to perfect MAD because of how imperfect and bad it is, you might as well only play with MAD since you won't have the space to include anything else. I think ppl should just give it up. There is nothing wrong with brawls air dodge system

 

[ChronoPenguin]

If the issue is punishing just add 4 frames to the air dodge lengths if possible, otherways suck it up =P.

also....what kind of music.
No sissy crap Kupo.

 

[metaXzero]

It lost several of it's uses yet it is overpowered.
Wut?

Your video better be kupo.....

 

[kupo15]

Back street boys....duh! jk

brawl music, some background stuff that works with my voice. Im going to have leaf and giza help with the first draft.

It lost several of it's uses yet it is overpowered.
Wut?

Your video better be kupo.....

Yes. It lost several uses, but the ones that stayed are overpowered. And my video better be....me?? ^_^

 

[metaXzero]

..............I meant to put "informative". -_-;

Well good luck on your video showing WD as "overpowered". Because I can't be convinced otherwise...

Also, you put your combo vids in the combo section of Brawl vids right (it's own thread)?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Back street boys....duh! jk

brawl music, some background stuff that works with my voice. Im going to have leaf and giza help with the first draft.

>.> I don't know why.

But ...uh....try Requim of Spirit.....as an intro =P

 

[SGX]

I definitely prefer MAD.

I think its entirely necessary until we get a dash dancing code.

It simply makes my playing experience more enjoyable having the ability to wavedash, and to be able to airdodge towards ledges.

 

[kupo15]

..............I meant to put "informative". -_-;

Well good luck on your video showing WD as "overpowered". Because I can't be convinced otherwise...

Also, you put your combo vids in the combo section of Brawl vids right (it's own thread)?

I think I may be showing you guys something you can do with wding that you never thought you could do with it. But yea, hopefully im done in a few days

>.> I don't know why.

But ...uh....try Requim of Spirit.....as an intro =P

Thats a good song. I think ill put it in the intro

I definitely prefer MAD.

I think its entirely necessary until we get a dash dancing code.

It simply makes my playing experience more enjoyable having the ability to wavedash, and to be able to airdodge towards ledges.

I guess if you want. I mean, I cant stop you obviously but I think dash dancing is a better code to replace wding.

 

[SGX]

Honestly I don't have a truck full of reasons why MAD would make the game more superior/deeper/more competitive, I just like it.

I feel like it gives me a greater element of control over my character which I previously did not have with normal air dodge.

If I had to choose one, I'd take dash dancing over MAD any day though. Lack of DD makes the game feel so clunky and awkward. I can't even tell you how excited I'll be when we get that code.

 

[kupo15]

Honestly I don't have a truck full of reasons why MAD would make the game more superior/deeper/more competitive, I just like it.

I feel like it gives me a greater element of control over my character which I previously did not have with normal air dodge.

If I had to choose one, I'd take dash dancing over MAD any day though. Lack of DD makes the game feel so clunky and awkward. I can't even tell you how excited I'll be when we get that code.

Understood. Then I guess we should get that after fixing the shields.

 

[Dan_X]

For one, I prefer auto L-caceling as logically speaking, it makes sense to use this over any other form of canceling.

Kupo, quite honestly, I'm surprised that you don't back wave-dashing in Brawl. You of all people seem as though you'd back it.

Melee Air Dodge (MAD) in Brawl

Pros:

-Can wave-dash into attacks, be it tilts or smashes, but it takes skill to pull off effectively.

-Better control over character in general. You can use wave-dashes to retreat from enemies.

-Unlike Melee, wave-dashing in Brawl has a near universal dashing distance, which actually works to balance wave-dashing.

-Approaches now have so many more options it's amazing.

-Adds to mind games as you can fake out enemies, by wave-dashing away then return for an unsuspecting attack.

-Can only dodge once in the air, then you fall to the ground (or off the stage). This is probably the single best change to Brawl's air dodge system. Brawl's air dodge system was mindless in that it was oftentimes safe from being punished. A person can air dodge numerous times in a row avoiding multiple attacks. In this respect, aerial pressuring is much more effective as you can pressure your enemy into dodging, after which you can punish him. To avoid this, he must be more aggressive in the air, fast falling, attacking you instead, or wave-landing.

-Can wave-dash onto the stage, from a hanging position. This is great because it adds a whole new level of depth with approaches from the edge.

-Aids comboing as a character can initiate a series of attacks tech-chase the enemy with wave-dashes, all the while attacking them.

-Every character can wave-dash...

Cons:

-Multiple wave-dashes can be stacked.... To alleviate this you could just make a tourney rule stating that you can't. It's very noticeable, so it's easy to spot. Also, it's not something that can be done accidentally. My friend and I play with wave-dashing and we never ever stack dashes, it's just stupid. With that said, it's really not a problem.

Conclusion:

In the end, how can you deny the usefulness of wave-dashing in Brawl? Sure it's not "needed" as characters don't need it to fall off the stage, grabbing the ledge. But who cares? This isn't about making the game more like Melee, as there's pleanty of things in Brawl that I like far more than Melee, and I'd never want that line to be crossed. For example I don't see why anyone would want to lessen the auto-grab (sweet-spotted) ledge grabbing, I think it's one of the better features of Brawl, that and the fact that you can grab the ledge while facing away from it. Wave-dashing adds depth and technical skill to a game that was otherwise devoid of it. This depth is undeniable as it's measured in options. With more options, more can come from any given scenario, and that my friends is a better game.

I don't see how it can "feel out of place" as an addendum I don't see how one can say that "Brawl's too floaty, Wave-dashing doesn't feel right." It feels perfect.

 

[storm92]

Meh, I've never liked Brawl's system of air dodging. It seems you can just use the ADs whenever, and it takes away a huge part of edgeguarding, which is (imho) one of the most interesting and competitive parts of the game. In Melee or 64 you could try to guardbreak, whereas Brawl it's almost not worth it to try because they can use AD unlimited times. Of course practically they'd never use it more than twice unless they had multiple jumps, but still.
The directional feature of MAD really is my favorite part, not WD'ing. I'd take DDing over WD any day, even if it means slightly less options all around. Sadly enough one comes hand-in-hand with the other, so we don't really have a choice.
I'd still prefer a middle ground.

Also at post above me, add under Cons how you can do anything immediately after WD'ing. I'm pro-MAD if we have to choose, but we need to make sure it's completely correct.

 

[Dan_X]

Also at post above me, add under Cons how you can do anything immediately after WD'ing. I'm pro-MAD if we have to choose, but we need to make sure it's completely correct.

That's not a con, it's a pro. It takes skill to pull off moves effectively when Wave-dashing... you can fall into a predictive pattern if you don't play smart. Every character can do this so.. what's the problem?

 

[kupo15]

the directional movement of air dodging in brawl compared to melee is really pathetic. It actually doesnt even feel like a melee air dodge imo. It acts like brawl with a pause. MAD kept you hanging for a while which is what you need.

That's not a con, it's a pro. It takes skill to pull off moves effectively when Wave-dashing... you can fall into a predictive pattern if you don't play smart. Every character can do this so.. what's the problem?

It is definitely a Con. This means that you have all of your options the frame after you press Z which means you cant get punished like melee. And its actually really easy.

 

[Dan_X]

the directional movement of air dodging in brawl compared to melee is really pathetic. It actually doesnt even feel like a melee air dodge imo. It acts like brawl with a pause. MAD kept you hanging for a while which is what you need.

The goal isn't necessarily to make Brawl Melee... I find the distance to be fine, no problems at all. It still works as an effective aerial dodge, you act as though MAD in Brawl doesn't work correctly... which isn't the case.

It is definitely a Con. This means that you have all of your options the frame after you press Z which means you cant get punished like melee. And its actually really easy.

This is so for every character though, you have the same options at hand that your enemy does. This adds more depth... Falcon can potentially wave-dash into a falcon punch, though that would still be more difficult, it's interesting nonetheless.

You make it seem easier than it is. Sure it's easier than Melee, but to incorporate wave-dashing, and all of it's sues into actually gameplay is actually quite difficult as it requires a wealth of muscle memory depending on what you're trying to accomplish with the wave-dash.

You have to admit the curve that wave-dashing n Brawl presents. For example, you could teach someone how to Wave-dash and they still wouldn't effectively use it nor would the efficiently implement it. It's simply not that simple.

 

[kupo15]

The goal isn't necessarily to make Brawl Melee... I find the distance to be fine, no problems at all. It still works as an effective aerial dodge, you act as though MAD in Brawl doesn't work correctly... which isn't the case.



This is so for every character though, you have the same options at hand that your enemy does. This adds more depth... Falcon can potentially wave-dash into a falcon punch, though that would still be more difficult, it's interesting nonetheless.

You make it seem easier than it is. Sure it's easier than Melee, but to incorporate wave-dashing, and all of it's sues into actually gameplay is actually quite difficult as it requires a wealth of muscle memory depending on what you're trying to accomplish with the wave-dash.

You have to admit the curve that wave-dashing n Brawl presents. For example, you could teach someone how to Wave-dash and they still wouldn't effectively use it nor would the efficiently implement it. It's simply not that simple.

Yes the goal isnt to make brawl melee, but with MAD, it kinda makes brawl like melee. Yes, MAD is terribly flawed in brawl. Your see in a couple of days why.

I know that wavedashing has a curve. It may be bigger than before since you have more movement options.

 

[Barge]

MAD and BAD are horrible names for the airdodges.
It gives Brawl+/Melee supporters another pun to make fun of brawl with.

 

[Dan_X]

MAD and BAD are horrible names for the airdodges.
It gives Brawl+/Melee supporters another pun to make fun of brawl with.

Who cares? It's the most obvious abbreviation. Call it whatever you want.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

I would have to say Brawl air dodge. If Brawl+'s goal is not to make this Melee 2.0, why take aspects from Melee?

I'm sure I just used terrible logic, but I really don't care >_>

 

[Starscream]

Every video I see of Brawl with wavedashing looks like Super Smash Bros on ice. It looks absolutely ********. It's way too long, about 1/3 the length of Final Destination and that's for everyone except Luigi. His are even longer.

 

[MBlaze]

UPDATED FIRST POST, GO SEE IT!