NickRiddle
#negativeNick
Well, since you see Falcon clearly walking between the jabs... they could shield, and probably attack, during any of that...
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Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion
- Thread starter Shaya
- Start date
I mean i didnt test it out as much a id like to but i feel like if were executed fast enough MAYBE it could act as a jab combo like Fox's 1,2? Idk man itd be nice if someone could expand on this and see if it would be viable or not. Was pretty stoned when i thought of this lmao.
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
Well, since you see Falcon clearly walking between the jabs... they could shield, and probably attack, during any of that...
Check if it works without the dashing.
It's a neat technique, but i dont think it'd work on any human player. The CPU is clearly able to walk and tilt while you're attacking. Any human player could just press shield, and since the window is so small it'd probably PShield on accident, which either lets them get away or freely punish you.
It's a combo though as long as they aren't able to act afterwards. CFalcon is heavier than majority of the cast though, so it probably wont work on most players unless very early in %s.
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Duck SMASH!
Smash Journeyman
Hey guys.
Can someone do an ELI5 regarding Out of Shield options?
I know some of the basic options like roll, grab, and jumping OoS, but what about stuff like dropping through platforms without dropping shield, or jump cancelled techniques?
For example, as Bowser, I just drop my shield and up B, but I don't do any of the jump canceling stuff and it works most of the time anyway. Is there some significant advantage to jump canceling first?
Thx in advance.
Can someone do an ELI5 regarding Out of Shield options?
I know some of the basic options like roll, grab, and jumping OoS, but what about stuff like dropping through platforms without dropping shield, or jump cancelled techniques?
For example, as Bowser, I just drop my shield and up B, but I don't do any of the jump canceling stuff and it works most of the time anyway. Is there some significant advantage to jump canceling first?
Thx in advance.
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
Dropping shield takes time. If you up-b OOS using jump + up-b, you remove those frames, making it faster.
Pikabunz
Smash Hero
I want someone to explain exactly what vectoring is.
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
VI is when you shrink the horizontal distance you travel by holding the opposite direction you're launched.
Pikabunz
Smash Hero
How is that not DI? In Brawl, if I held towards the stage when getting launched, I'll live longer than with no input at all. I really believe vectoring isn't a thing.
Duck SMASH!
Smash Journeyman
DI controls the direction you fly to optimize your longevity and avoid reaching the blast zones. It doesn't actually subtract in any way from the knockback you receive.
Vectoring, however, does directly oppose the knockback.
Pikabunz
Smash Hero
How do we know we aren't surviving on just DI alone? Holding the opposite direction before you're launched does angle you up higher so you live longer. Where are people getting that there's reduced knockback as well, because I'm not seeing it.
Get hit by a move that sends you close to straight out, such as Fox D-Smash. Check holding toward the stage and holding away from it. Then you'll know once and for all, as the difference should be negligible if it's just DI.
Also, holding Up kills you earlier on a sideways KO move (like Sonic B-Throw) than not holding anything.
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Pikabunz
Smash Hero
DI will still factor into that. Also, I already did some tests with this using Wii Fit's downsmash. I die at 106 by holding left (towards the stage) and I die at 103 holding right (away from the stage). You're only living longer by holding left because it still angles you up a little higher while holding right just straightens it out more. If vectoring was a thing, then we would see a much bigger difference I think. Also, I lived longer by holding down (died at 111) and even lived at the same percent as holding left by holding down and away (died at 106) and holding up kills me earlier (97) than holding away.
If vectoring was a thing this wouldn't happen. According to the thread on vectoring, holding up should just move you up higher. Shouldn't this make you live longer since you're closer to the corner? But, it's obviously not doing that. When you're holding up, you do increase your knockback, but it's not because of vectoring.
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
VI and DI are different, as VI only affects horizontal KB.
In the 3DS days, holding up would make you die at the exact same % from a horizontal move, but holding in would make you live longer.
Get hit by DK's u-smash, pretty sure it still sends you straight up in this game... at least it did in Brawl.
Hold up.
Hold down.
Neither of those increase/decrease KB.
Clearly a difference.
Pikabunz
Smash Hero
The knockback increase/decrease from holding up/down doesn't affect vertical knockback, but it does affect horizontal knockback. This has nothing to do with vectoring though. You only live longer by hold in because you're not increasing your knockback from holding up.
Ulevo
Smash Master
In Melee and Brawl, you could only alter your movement by holding the analog stick perpendicular to your trajectory. In Smash IV, you alter your movement in any direction except for when you hold up or down and your trajectory is up or down.
Holding up never killed you earlier in Melee and Brawl. In this game it does because altering your trajectory does not alter the distance you travel unless you go almost completely vertical.
Pikabunz
Smash Hero
Holding up does alter the distance you travel though. Everyone has been saying that.
So here we have flight paths for DI'ing left, right, and no DI at all. Notice how they're all the same distance from Luigi when going in a straight line to him? Only your trajectory changes when holding left or right. There's no knockback reduction what-so-ever. Holding left only makes you live longer due to it making your trajectory higher. Now when we DI up...
There's a huge increase in knockback and a higher trajectory due to DI'ing up. The Jigglypuff in the middle has a slightly increased knockback than the other two because you're holding up higher than the other directions. The big knockback increase is what kills you earlier.
With DI'ing down there's a decrease in knockback in addition to a much lower trajectory. Again, the Jigglypuff in the middle has a slightly more reduction due to holding down further than the other directions. While the knockback reduction seems nice, you're still going to die early because of the lower trajectory bringing you closer to the blast zone. Although, in some situtations, DI'ing down can make you live longer.
So vectoring doesn't exist, but there's a different mechanic that affects your knockback distance depending on which direction you're holding. Holding up increases your knockback and holding down decreases it. It's as simple as that.
So here we have flight paths for DI'ing left, right, and no DI at all. Notice how they're all the same distance from Luigi when going in a straight line to him? Only your trajectory changes when holding left or right. There's no knockback reduction what-so-ever. Holding left only makes you live longer due to it making your trajectory higher. Now when we DI up...
There's a huge increase in knockback and a higher trajectory due to DI'ing up. The Jigglypuff in the middle has a slightly increased knockback than the other two because you're holding up higher than the other directions. The big knockback increase is what kills you earlier.
With DI'ing down there's a decrease in knockback in addition to a much lower trajectory. Again, the Jigglypuff in the middle has a slightly more reduction due to holding down further than the other directions. While the knockback reduction seems nice, you're still going to die early because of the lower trajectory bringing you closer to the blast zone. Although, in some situtations, DI'ing down can make you live longer.
So vectoring doesn't exist, but there's a different mechanic that affects your knockback distance depending on which direction you're holding. Holding up increases your knockback and holding down decreases it. It's as simple as that.
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This is what has always been known as 'vectoring'. There's just a lot of misinformation about it. I've had this as the definition of vectoring in the smash dictionary this whole time, only altering it slightly when the patch came in that removed it's influence over vertical knockback.
Ulevo
Smash Master
Ignore what I said when I said altering your trajectory doesn't alter the distance. I meant the opposite. Tired.Holding up does alter the distance you travel though. Everyone has been saying that.
So here we have flight paths for DI'ing left, right, and no DI at all. Notice how they're all the same distance from Luigi when going in a straight line to him? Only your trajectory changes when holding left or right. There's no knockback reduction what-so-ever. Holding left only makes you live longer due to it making your trajectory higher. Now when we DI up...
There's a huge increase in knockback and a higher trajectory due to DI'ing up. The Jigglypuff in the middle has a slightly increased knockback than the other two because you're holding up higher than the other directions. The big knockback increase is what kills you earlier.
With DI'ing down there's a decrease in knockback in addition to a much lower trajectory. Again, the Jigglypuff in the middle has a slightly more reduction due to holding down further than the other directions. While the knockback reduction seems nice, you're still going to die early because of the lower trajectory. Although, in some situtations, DI'ing down can make you live longer.
So vectoring doesn't exist, but there's a different mechanic that affects your knockback distance depending on which direction you're holding. Holding up increases your knockback and holding down decreases it. It's as simple as that.
This is interesting. I thought this mechanic in question is what was being aptly called vectoring? Or at the very least it was a part o the vectoring system from previous but the half that affects vertical knockback was removed in favor of partial DI.
Pikabunz
Smash Hero
But it really isn't. At least, what I described is different from how it was described in the vectoring thread. And why would people say vector towards the stage to live when holding in is not vectoring. Holding in changes your trajectory which is exactly what DI'ing does. People should still being saying DI to live, not vector. Also many people believe holding towards the stage reduces knockback because of vectoring when that doesn't happen at all.
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What can I say? At some point the understanding of the word changed but the word designating the effect didn't change (nor did the OP in the vectoring thread apparently), hence the widespread misinformation. Vectoring remained the word to describe the ability to control the distance of knockback received while DI remaining the word to describe the ability to control the angle you get hit. They are both separate mechanics and so it wouldn't make sense to use 'DI' to cover both; besides more is at work than the mere 'influence' over the 'direction' you get hit, so a separate word is needed. If it were up to me we'd choose a new word for 'vectoring', but it's not up to me.
Edit: I realise that the word 'always' in my previous post was misleading. -hyperbole etc.
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Pikabunz
Smash Hero
From the comments I read on the recent DI video, I can say that no one really understands what "vectoring" is. Some of the posts in this thread and even the video implied you get reduced knockback when holding towards the stage when that's not the case. But I guess all that really matters is that people know that holding towards the stage makes you live longer.
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I think that a lot of the issues arise because people think of the word 'DI' or 'Vectoring' as the one word to describe the influence you have over your character by holding the joystick in a given direction before or during being hit, when in fact it's a mixture of the two mechanics that just so happens to be controlled by the same input. It really is a mess of a system. It all got too complicated and so people started explaining it in practical terms (which I think was a mistake) e.g. "look, just hold towards the stage" - because most of the time (in relation to most knockback trajectories) this just happened to not be a terrible idea. However it only further spread the misinformation that DI or Vectoring were different words for the one mechanic.
kackamee
Smash Master
Just for the sake of clarity, I (and I think most people) think that vectoring reduces horizontal knock back, while DI just changes trajectory.
The way it was explained to me was that when your character gets launched, they get knocked back x amount. If you hold opposite to the launch angle, you are decreasing x (as long as the move knocked you left or right), thus not being knocked back as far. If you hold perpendicular to the launch angle, you are still knocked back x amount, you are just changing the angle itself to take a farther route to the blastzone, increasing your chance to travel x amount before hitting it.
The way it was explained to me was that when your character gets launched, they get knocked back x amount. If you hold opposite to the launch angle, you are decreasing x (as long as the move knocked you left or right), thus not being knocked back as far. If you hold perpendicular to the launch angle, you are still knocked back x amount, you are just changing the angle itself to take a farther route to the blastzone, increasing your chance to travel x amount before hitting it.
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Ulevo
Smash Master
I understand what @
Pikabunz
is saying. Essentially DI is still in the game exactly how it was in previous iterations. The only difference is that there is a new mechanic that overlaps with it that increases your knock back the more you angle the stick upward, and decreases your knock back the more angle the stick downward.
This would make senses given the results, as even though holding down does decrease your knock back, it is not as effective as holding towards the stage because hold down is still changing your trajectory in an unfavourable way like it would in previous games, cancelling out the benefits provided by the knock back reduction, while holding in is still an angle that is not parallel to the trajectory and does not increase your knock back at all via the new mechanics.
Pikabunz
is saying. Essentially DI is still in the game exactly how it was in previous iterations. The only difference is that there is a new mechanic that overlaps with it that increases your knock back the more you angle the stick upward, and decreases your knock back the more angle the stick downward.This would make senses given the results, as even though holding down does decrease your knock back, it is not as effective as holding towards the stage because hold down is still changing your trajectory in an unfavourable way like it would in previous games, cancelling out the benefits provided by the knock back reduction, while holding in is still an angle that is not parallel to the trajectory and does not increase your knock back at all via the new mechanics.
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Pazx
hoo hah
DI is still in the game exactly how it was in previous iterations except using survival DI for moves with primarily horizontal knockback will get you killed due to the addition of 'Vectoring'. Significant.
The way I think about it is to only ever attempt to DI/Vector/Whatever either left, right, or a downwards angle diagonally, this is something I found out myself testing Ness's bthrow. Holding up is never a good idea when it comes to survival DI... probably
Somebody in another thread did research on at which point holding up no longer increases knockback taken using bob-ombs but I can't recall who.
The way I think about it is to only ever attempt to DI/Vector/Whatever either left, right, or a downwards angle diagonally, this is something I found out myself testing Ness's bthrow. Holding up is never a good idea when it comes to survival DI... probably
Somebody in another thread did research on at which point holding up no longer increases knockback taken using bob-ombs but I can't recall who.
Let's say that I hit an opponent with with the same attack, and they both produce the same knockback despite the percent and rage differences. Is the hitstun the same? I'm curious if high rage, low percent attacks have the same followup potential as low rage, high percent attacks as long as the knockback is the same. I've always assumed that high rage, low % attacks produced less hitstun, but now I'm not that sure.
This question could also apply for horizontal vectoring. Are you in hitstun longer if you hold up+away where it increases your knockback, or shorter if you hold down and reduce knockback?
This question could also apply for horizontal vectoring. Are you in hitstun longer if you hold up+away where it increases your knockback, or shorter if you hold down and reduce knockback?
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DungeonMaster
Smash Lord
I can confirm everything is the same, at least for Samus, but I doubt that the rest of the cast have special properties. A combo that works in training mode can be readily translated to a combo in actual game so long as you use the appropriate rage and staleness math. Rage means -1% for every 10% damage on Samus and staleness is +2% for the first use and +1% for every use thereafter. It may not be perfectly accurate, but for all practical purposes it's *very* accurate, enough to land narrow range multi-hit combos at any level of rage. Note that Samus has primarily vertical combos, horizontal may have a slightly different math associated with them and I haven't fully tested it (because, well, I'm a Samus main). You can mostly ignore staleness as rage is the much bigger factor.
Here attached you can see my promised video showing how to use the math from the complete Samus combo thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-complete-samus-combo-and-string-list-and-knowledge-compendium.391853/
You can see for instance:
2:09 Villager is at 25 + 1 = 26%. Magic number is 29. It should land best circa 19, near the end of the range but connects. True combo, 42 guaranteed damage out of a single grab.
2:16 Lucina is at 16 + 10 = 26%. Magic number is 32. It should land best circa 23, prime range and it connects. Perfect example of rage mechanic understood.
All the details in the combo thread.
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Thanks! Very informative.
Ulevo
Smash Master
It has nothing to do with vectoring. Look at the Jigglypuff positions @
Pikabunz
posted. The reason the Jiggs is further to the right when holding right as opposed to neutral is because holding right changes the trajectory, exactly how it would in older games. It's altering the trajectory by about 15-20 degrees, and moving it more downward, thus Jiggs winds up closer to the blastzone. It is not increasing the distance Jiggs has flown.
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I was interested in the results and possible consequences of hitstun increasing or decreasing based on vectoring (holding up/down to raise/lower kb) so I tried it out. The test was using a move that hits 2 enemies with one holding up and the other holding down. I specifically tested DK in training mode using Giant Punch on 2 other DK's that taunt before impact to prevent movement/crouch canceling. Both victims could act at the same time despite the knockback difference, so the hitstun was the same and is independent of vectoring (perhaps hitstun is calculated before vectoring). I forgot try it at lower (pre-tumble) %'s, but at 50% and 75% there was no difference in hitstun due to vectoring.
While vectoring may be weird and not affect hitstun, experience tells me rage definitely increases hitstun. Hitstun is tied to knockback and rage's boost is proportional to the total knockback. Since hitstun is definitely affected by rage, I would have to assume that the answer to your first question is yes. The more base kb and lower the kb growth are, the more pronounced rage's effect on hitstun will be compared to damage (most obvious on jabs).
Pazx
hoo hah
I tested this with Ness's bthrow on Diddy Kong. Bair always increased the % required to KO him (mashing A lol) while Uair and Dair (+ fast fall) worked but only when using the C stick set to attack. Did you find out if fair/bair did anything when hit by attacks facing the other way?
ShuckleBoard
Smash Apprentice
I was wondering how to test out rage KO percents as rage is not present in training mode. The set-up I'm using is 99 stocks with Mario on FD and the character whose moves I'm checking. The main problem here stems from fresh bonus and staling. I haven't been able to find the number of hits a move needs to negate the freshness and act like it does in training mode. I have just been using Jabs and set knock back moves to reset the stale counter. Also the issue with stale move negation comes from the Freshness bonus coming back. Does 9 hits out of the 10 reset it to normal KB. Any Discussion/Help is welcome.
I often use the Handicap setting to test specific Rage percents.
ShuckleBoard
Smash Apprentice
Thanks Man that's going to save a lot time lol. Jabbing and Labbing was getting dull fast.
MonkeyArms
Smash Ace
I've seen a few people doing pivot up smashes lately, how do they do them?
Full technique "name", is Reverse Jump Cancelled Up Smash.
As you can "reverse aerial rush" and you can cancel jumps into up smash, the two together produces a pivot up smash out of a dash/run
While running right:
->-> as quickly as possible (but in that order).
As you can "reverse aerial rush" and you can cancel jumps into up smash, the two together produces a pivot up smash out of a dash/run
While running right:
->-> as quickly as possible (but in that order).
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2DDJ
Smash Rookie
I'm struggling to figure out perfect pivoting, I think I see how one PPs towards an opponent, but I always end up facing in the wrong direction - I am facing away from my opponent - which limits my options since the only ground moves that reach from this position are my d-smash, my u-smash (barely) and very rarely my u-tilt. When I try to turn myself around I just end up dashing past my opponent, what am I doing wrong?
MonkeyArms
Smash Ace
So I'm guessing I could hit left y up on the controll stick and A right? that seems easier than moving my finger all the way down thereFull technique "name", is Reverse Jump Cancelled Up Smash.
As you can "reverse aerial rush" and you can cancel up smash, the two together produces a pivot up smash out of a dash/run
While Running right)