Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[TheAnomaly]

So I'm guessing I could hit left y up on the controll stick and A right? that seems easier than moving my finger all the way down there

Yep. Just remember to not get carried away using it and generally only use it if your character benefits from the shift in the hitbox position(such as mario getting his invincible head closer to the opponent on startup of the move etc.)

 

[Valamway]

It's been a known mechanic since before the 3DS demo that there's a grab refresh timer, yes?
(I realized it personally while playing the Best Buy demo, at least)
In effort to remove chaingrab infinites, they (didn't put in Ice Climbers and) made it impossible to grab an opponent immediately after they are released from any grab, in any way.

But is it commonly known that there's a refresh timer for ledge grabs too?
Characters that can easily instant ledge grab can't do so multiple times right in a row, after performing a ledge action.
I only just realised this today, and tested it with multiple characters by performing a standard getup and attempting to buffer an instant ledge grab.
I would fall past the ledge every time.
But if I waited just a moment, I could regrab ledge.

I'm probably just late to the party in figuring this out, but I figured I'd ask here anyway.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

It's been a known mechanic since before the 3DS demo that there's a grab refresh timer, yes?
(I realized it personally while playing the Best Buy demo, at least)
In effort to remove chaingrab infinites, they (didn't put in Ice Climbers and) made it impossible to grab an opponent immediately after they are released from any grab, in any way.

But is it commonly known that there's a refresh timer for ledge grabs too?
Characters that can easily instant ledge grab can't do so multiple times right in a row, after performing a ledge action.
I only just realised this today, and tested it with multiple characters by performing a standard getup and attempting to buffer an instant ledge grab.
I would fall past the ledge every time.
But if I waited just a moment, I could regrab ledge.

I'm probably just late to the party in figuring this out, but I figured I'd ask here anyway.

It is known.
http://smashboards.com/threads/ledge-availability-and-why-tether-sometimes-doesnt-work.384628/

 

[Valamway]

It is known.
http://smashboards.com/threads/ledge-availability-and-why-tether-sometimes-doesnt-work.384628/

I figured. Thanks for the quick response!

 

[thehard]

What are the exact numbers for how long invuln. lasts on the ledge determined by percentage? I know in general more % = less invuln.

 

[Pazx]

What are the exact numbers for how long invuln. lasts on the ledge determined by percentage? I know in general more % = less invuln.

Has this been confirmed? So many people have tested for similar things yet I haven't seen conclusive results. I think Reflex did a lot of testing in regards to ledge getup invulnerability awhile back.

 

[Mr. Potatobadger]

I apologize if this question has already been answered.

Can someone explain to me exactly what a frame trap is? I'm confused on exactly what it is and what it means.

From what I gather, it seems like it's a fancy term for a true combo, but I'm like 90% sure that's wrong. I can't seem to find much around the web.

Thanks in advance!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

What are the exact numbers for how long invuln. lasts on the ledge determined by percentage? I know in general more % = less invuln.

I know that grabbing the ledge at 0% gives you up to about 60 frames of invulnerability, while being at extreme percents (150+%) seems to make it more like Brawl (~22 frames of invulnerability). I don't think anyone has hard and fast numbers per percent for just hanging on the ledge yet, though.

The amount of invulnerability you have due to this only matters while you don't do another ledge option; Ledge Jump, Ledge Roll, Ledge Climb, and Ledge Jump all have their own amounts of invincibility, and unlike past Smash games, leftover ledge invincibility doesn't carry over into other options.

I apologize if this question has already been answered.

Can someone explain to me exactly what a frame trap is? I'm confused on exactly what it is and what it means.

From what I gather, it seems like it's a fancy term for a true combo, but I'm like 90% sure that's wrong. I can't seem to find much around the web.

Thanks in advance!

A frame trap is a combination of moves that has a gap between them too small to punish, but "looks" unsafe. It's called a frame trap because it is based on the frame data of those moves. A simple example would be Sheik's F-Air on shield -> Jab or Ganondorf whiffing his low-endlag U-Smash and doing a tilt afterward; it encourages players to try to punish, but the following move would deal with the opponent before their potential punish would hit.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I feel like I've seen a list of Ledge Climb invincibility somewhere, but I can't find it. Anyone know where that would be?

 

[Lavani]

I feel like I've seen a list of Ledge Climb invincibility somewhere, but I can't find it. Anyone know where that would be?

The sixriver data had information for ledge options on tab 3.

Spoiler

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Do tethers still incur the single frame of ledge grab vulnerability when they get to the ledge?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So what it total affects how much invincibility you get?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So what it total affects how much invincibility you get?

Technically, since you're generally vulnerable two frames before IASA. If one character's animation takes 30 frames to finish and another character's animation takes 34 frames to finish, the first character would have two more invincibility frames, but the same amount of vulnerable endlag.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Technically, since you're generally vulnerable two frames before IASA. If one character's animation takes 30 frames to finish and another character's animation takes 34 frames to finish, the first character would have two more invincibility frames, but the same amount of vulnerable endlag.

Hmm ok.

But for lets say just holding the ledge, your percent and other factors will play into account, like how soon you regrab it?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Hmm ok.

But for lets say just holding the ledge, your percent and other factors will play into account, like how soon you regrab it?

Oh, I thought you were talking about the sixriver page Lavani translated.

Forget my last post; the amount of invincibility you get while just hanging on the ledge is directly proportional to what your percent is. The higher your percent, the fewer the amount of invincibility frames.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Oh, I thought you were talking about the sixriver page Lavani translated.

Forget my last post; the amount of invincibility you get while just hanging on the ledge is directly proportional to what your percent is. The higher your percent, the fewer the amount of invincibility frames.

Lol np.

But is it just this?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Lol np.

But is it just this?

As far as I can tell, how many times you've grabbed the ledge in x amount of time has no effect on how much invincibility you have, so long as you still follow the rule of "one ledge grab before putting your feet on the ground again."

 

[Mr. Potatobadger]

I apologize again in advance, in case this question has already been answered. And the question might be kind of nooby, I'm not sure.

Ok, so, people know the existence of slow running, right? This might be a really newb question. I've never seen or heard anything about it until today. And I still haven't heard anything about it. Is it just so obvious that no one really mentions it?

When you're running and you tilt the control back, you begin to run slower. It looks pretty goofy with some characters with a slouched running animation, like Little Mac or Marth. If you do a foxtrot and then tilt the control stick forward slightly, you run even slower. I've gotten Marth to run slower than his walk.

Until today, I had no idea this was a thing. I've never heard anyone mention it, and much less seen anyone use it. Because it honestly seems pretty useless. (and again, pretty goofy)

I do know that in melee, if you turn around from a dash you run slower. But this is pretty different from that.

Is there a term for this "Technique"? If so, what is it called and what is it used for, if at all?

Thanks in advance, and I apologize if this question is silly.

 

[Lavani]

It's a known thing, I actually asked that myself much earlier in this thread, haha.

It's worth noting that you'll run in place at ledges instead of running off them while doing it.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's around, fairly common Brawl knowledge. I don't remember there being a specific name attached to it.

The only competitive use I can think of would be to stall yourself from running off the ledge to bait an opponent's response. If you're trying to get off a platform or edge and do this, the opponent's Dash Attack or recovery might feel pressured to do it early.

Nothing of great note, though.

 

[Mr. Potatobadger]

Thank you guys so much for answering my questions!

 

[LancerStaff]

Just one of those burning questions that keeps a guy up at night, yaknow? Can you buffer a fast fall? Don't think you can, and it's making a technique very hard...

I think there may be avenues of research we need to look into for abusing the way the game interprets C stick + analog movements together for increasing speed/buffering in general.

A lot of people have mentioned recently about holding down + a c-stick aerial will auto fast fall (if you're past your apex) and I noticed that this will apply even if you do it pre apex if you're holding the c-stick down for "longer". May be crazy but I do think engine changes have occurred because I'm otherwise doing jabs or nairs with c-stick inputs on occasion that wasn't EVER happening prior to 1.06.

Another buffer trick I've spotted is (for example) during your dash, you press shield and c stick down and you'll buffer a spot dodge at the end of your dash animation. If you maintain the control stick forward you'll buffer a forward roll after the spot dodge after letting go of the c-stick.

Remember the whole "the C-Stick is broken" debacle? In previous games the C-Stick would input direction + A for just a frame and then pass control to the... control stick. Now, the C-Stick will input direction + A for a frame then input neutral + A when held down. Holding down & Dairing with the C-Stick always made you fast fall after the Dair, although going from control stick to C-Stick was changed to remove "smash tilts."

Funny... I didn't put this all together until just now. I remember experimenting with the different C-Stick options at release to experiment with how they effect Pit's arrows, and B and Tilts on C had a weak effect on arrows while Smashes were strong but only for a moment on top of stoping Pit. It's not some magical thing locking your character in place, it's just sending a neutral input so your character doesn't run off the stage when held down and it has priority over A and the control stick like usual.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I was screwing around with individual moves and found that Wario's D-Tilt appears to make his hand invincible to grabs for the entirety of the animation but not invincible to strikes. Testing with Kirby standing grab and Jab, where a powershield -> grab passes through his whole hand but Kirby's Jab hits where Wario's knuckles would be with no problem.

Is that common? I feel like my outstretched limbs get grabbed a lot on other characters (Mac, for instance). The move data pastebin (http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8) doesn't show partial invincibility on Wario D-Tilt.

EDIT: Same thing going on with Wario Jab1. I imagine certain body parts are just ungrabbable, then?

 

[Shaya]

Hands/Feet/Fingers are often intangible by "default".
If that resolves it, otherwise confused why jabs would be any different.

 

[Lavani]

http://sixriver.web.fc2.com/ssb4/Guard_Hitstop.htm

Apparently sixriver has a shieldstun calculator now, which calculates attacker hitlag, shielder hitlag, and shielder shieldstun, and has formulae for finding these three things. It also calculates frame (dis)advantage for using a move on shield. I have no idea how accurate it is, but it seems to match up fairly well with what I've observed.

The supposed formulae are:

Attacker Hitlag
(Attack Base Damage ÷ 2.6 + 5) x Hitlag modifier x Element modifier [1.5 if electric, 1 otherwise]

Defender Hitlag
(Attack Base Damage ÷ 2.6 + 5)

Defender Shieldstun
Attack Base Damage ÷ 2.56

A translated calc example using usmash:

Remember to add 7 frames of advantage if they need to drop their shield to punish!

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Lavani you sexy Luma you

Smooth Criminal

 

[deepseadiva]

Amazingggggg

Assuming it's correct

 

[thehard]

Now we just need a shield pushback calculator. I wonder how that could be done...?

edit: @ Mr. Potatobadger https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzNrFPM3stU

 

[Shaya]

Hmm, one thing that deters me from thinking it's 100% accurate, but from the testing I did, there seemed to generally be a minimum shield stun applied, much like Hit Lag.

But hmm, I have 3%/2f, 4%/3f and 6%/3.5f
Could've always messed things up myself, testing that **** was laborious and hard to feel consistent/concise with.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm trying to get concrete numbers for when the tip of Wario D-Tilt allows opponents to buffer an option before they would hit the ground.

It appears to be pretty simple (the vast majority of characters seem to be able to do so at any percent or not at all) but I'm getting weird values for characters who can do it only after taking a certain amount of damage.

Example: A Wario at 0% Rage D-Tilting Sonic. Sonic can buffer an option before landing at 67% and 76%, but not 71%. Why is that?

 

[Dr. Tuen]

http://sixriver.web.fc2.com/ssb4/Guard_Hitstop.htm

Apparently sixriver has a shieldstun calculator now, which calculates attacker hitlag, shielder hitlag, and shielder shieldstun, and has formulae for finding these three things. It also calculates frame (dis)advantage for using a move on shield. I have no idea how accurate it is, but it seems to match up fairly well with what I've observed.

The supposed formulae are:

Attacker Hitlag
(Attack Base Damage ÷ 2.6 + 5) x Hitlag modifier x Element modifier [1.5 if electric, 1 otherwise]

Defender Hitlag
(Attack Base Damage ÷ 2.6 + 5)

Defender Shieldstun
Attack Base Damage ÷ 2.56

A translated calc example using usmash:

Remember to add 7 frames of advantage if they need to drop their shield to punish!

This is rad. For my dyslexia reference... does this example mean that Mr. 'Dorf's opponent gets to act 11 frames before he does? (4 frames after shield drop?)

Also, do we know how to similarly calculate hitstun? It'd be nice to start investigating how long you have to act between hits of combos and such.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

This is rad. For my dyslexia reference... does this example mean that Mr. 'Dorf's opponent gets to act 11 frames before he does? (4 frames after shield drop?)

Yes, that's what it means.

 

[Shaya]

Shield pushback (?) and hitstun are knockback scaling.
Pre-tumble knockback scales up to 30 frames of hit stun (assuming it's the same as brawl). Pre-tumble knockback does not allow DI.

Reflex, legitimately sounds like you've got some sort of pre-tumble to tumble transition happening for Wario's dtilt?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Reflex, legitimately sounds like you've got some sort of pre-tumble to tumble transition happening for Wario's dtilt?

Wario D-Tilt is too weak to send people into tumble until extremely high percents.

 

[thehard]

Does shield pushback take into account character traction at all?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Does shield pushback take into account character traction at all?

Regardless of your traction, you can jump out of or drop your shield at the same time whether you're Luigi or anyone else.

You can effectively cancel any remaining shield pushback with a spotdodge or roll, for all it's worth.

 

[fox67890]

Has there been a definitive way mentioned to SDI multi-hit moves to get out of them? I'm aware that simply tapping the control stick rapidly away kinda works, but is there a better way? And on that note, how does the c-stick factor into SDIing in this game with its new mechanics? If the c-stick still works, does it matter if it's set to smash or attack?

Sorry for the stream of questions lol. But I'm seriously curious, and answering these questions would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Lavani]

What direction you SDI in to escape depends on the move, usually you want to go away or up but some multihits can be escaped by going down or even toward the opponent as well.

The C-stick overrides the control stick so you can't do dual stick SDI in this game, just use the control stick.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Is quarter-circle DI generally considered the most effective method of putting in multiple SDI inputs in a short period of time, or does the game require you to go back to neutral?

 

[Lavani]

I've been doing quarter circle and it seems to work quite well.