Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Lavani]

Standard getup is a little over 30 frames for most if not all characters and has one vulnerable frame at the end of it. To my knowledge, the player's percent has nothing to do with the amount of invincibility.

 

[Pazx]

IIRC it's 2 vulnerable frames at the end, and being at a higher percentage means your ledge-hang invulnerability runs out sooner but it doesn't affect getup options. I may be wrong but this is my understanding.

 

[Lavani]

IIRC it's 2 vulnerable frames at the end, and being at a higher percentage means your ledge-hang invulnerability runs out sooner but it doesn't affect getup options. I may be wrong but this is my understanding.

Sixriver's frame data only mentions one vulnerable frame for every character I've looked at. Picked eight characters at random before posting this and all were listed as 1-33 invuln, 34 vulnerable, 35 able to act with the exception of Peach who has 1-31/32/33.

You're right about the ledge hang mechanics to my knowledge.

 

[Ixisnaugus]

Thanks for the responses, I'll go with what you say @ Lavani until proven otherwise.

 

[Yikarur]

I can confirm as well that Yoshi has 1 frame vulnerability on his get-up. It's probably the same rosterwise.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I tested how far above the ledge each character is immediately after a Ledge Drop (pressing Away or Down when on the ledge). I know that making the most of this seems iffy/situational, but perhaps characters who can leave a lingering hitbox at the right height can trap opponents (Robin Forward-B? Samus Down-B? Some aerials on characters with high horizontal aerial mobility? *shrugs*). All the characters not affected by this may have a little more safety on a ledge drop than they previously thought.

As an aside, any character not listed is too low to hit with anything that isn't significantly below the ledge (like doing an aerial past/below the ledge), and every character that is holding the ledge without ledge invincibility can be hit by the average D-Smash or D-Tilt.

Characters that can be hit with most attacks (the average F-Smash, for instance): Bowser Jr., Dr. Mario, Luigi, Mario, Mega Man, Mii Brawler, Mii Gunner, Mii Swordsman.

Characters that can be hit by moves parallel with the ground (the average D-Smash or D-Tilt, for instance): Charizard, Duck Hunt, Greninja, Little Mac, Lucina, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Marth, Olimar, Pac-Man, Peach, R.O.B., Rosalina, Sonic, Toon Link, Villager, Wario.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

There are situations where attacking an opponent's shield with an attack will cause you to fall off the ledge. I know that this is the case with many Rapid Jabs, but other stuff...? I can't seem to replicate this with other moves, though I'm pretty sure I've done it accidentally before. Anybody else know what I'm talking about? I know it was in Brawl on powershields sometimes...

 

[AzureAsteroid2]

anyone know exactly what rage does? I know it goes up to 150% and that it increases knockback but is that it?
does it scale along with moves or does it just add to the base knockback?

 

[Pyr]

There are situations where attacking an opponent's shield with an attack will cause you to fall off the ledge. I know that this is the case with many Rapid Jabs, but other stuff...? I can't seem to replicate this with other moves, though I'm pretty sure I've done it accidentally before. Anybody else know what I'm talking about? I know it was in Brawl on powershields sometimes...

From the Luigi boards:
http://smashboards.com/threads/traction-negater-shieldstun-momentum-shuffling.403808

I am sure all of you have read the tip that says something like "Shieldstun Shuffling: Input a direction while your shield is being hit to move slightly in that direction", and like me thought that that was just talking about how you can move your shield around to prevent shield stabbing. However, this really does affect your momentum. This means you can almost completely negate shield pushback. This partly explains why a run to shield sometimes negates shield pushback and sometimes doesn't. With this i have been able to punish even things such as Fsmashes on my shield with extreme punishes like a standing grab or a standing up b OOS.

To do it, you have to press the direction before you press shield, otherwise you will roll. So for instance what you would do is run forward, keep holding forward when you run into shield, and then keep holding forward while shielded. This is extremely useful for Luigi with his traction problems usually making it hard to punish strong moves OOS unless you perfect shield(which is dangerous against strong moves, especially with online lag). I think we should make this known to all the Luigi mains here, as even though some people may say "lol i knew about this ages ago", most people don't know about it.

Maybe there is some sort of correlation?

 

[LimitCrown]

I thought that shieldstun shuffling was another name for Shield DI. I don't know whether shieldstun shuffling affects the attacking character as well as the defending character.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

From the Luigi boards:
http://smashboards.com/threads/traction-negater-shieldstun-momentum-shuffling.403808

What does this have to do with the attacker falling off of ledges? Does it affect the opponent you shield against, too?

 

[Pyr]

What does this have to do with the attacker falling off of ledges? Does it affect the opponent you shield against, too?

It's a theory, and not something I think many, if any, would have tested.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I never really thought about it, but testing various percentages shows this fact to be true (and it makes logical sense):

When you're magnified near the blast zone, you take constant damage, rather than the game just rounding up after x amount of time. If your percent is 30.9%, it'll roll over to 40% almost immediately after going into the blast zone, whereas 30% would take noticeably longer for the percentage to "respond."

 

[LightLV]

According to wiki, Rage starts at 10%, ends at 200%, max rage is 2x knockback. + 0.1x knockback per 10% damage.

It's most likely a scaling knockback increase, but i dont know.

 

[Ixisnaugus]

Actually, what causes your opponent to be pushed off ledges when shielding? It doesn't happen as frequently as it did in Brawl, but we know it can. What has changed? Does the aggressor have to use a move with enough shield pushback? Does the defender have to drop shield immediately? I see it happen more often when the defender attempts to drop shield and perform an action like a jab.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

What has changed? Does the aggressor have to use a move with enough shield pushback? Does the defender have to drop shield immediately?

It's the both of these. There has to be enough shield pushback where dropping a shield causes you to keep sliding, and you have to drop your shield in the first place. The main change from Brawl is that you cannot slide off an edge with your shield up now.

 

[Ixisnaugus]

Ah I see, thanks, that explains a lot.

 

[Jrzfine]

So I was messing around with footstool combos this morning...
Is it common knowledge that a footstool followed by a meteor smash cannot be teched? If not i'm considering making a thread about it, as it seems like something people should know. Example:

Try it yourself if you'd like, I have tried and failed to tech that dair about 50 times.

 

[Pikabunz]

I remember someone saying you can't tech meteor smashes if you're laying on the ground. I don't think it's common knowledge though.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Is Automatic SDI still in this game, where holding a direction before going into hitlag freeze gives you one SDI input in the direction you were holding? Also, can you SDI any throws?

I ask because I have this weird situation that I can't do reliably, but I can replicate maybe one out of five tries as Wario in Training Mode. I've done it as Jigglypuff and Wario at high percents; I can seem to get it to happen between 100-200% in both Versus and Training (with minimal Rage in Versus; I think Falcon was at 23%). Not sure about lower percents, and never in the slow-motion Training settings.

Anyway, if Captain Falcon is below a Battlefield platform and does a B-Throw so that Jigglypuff/Wario would pass through the platform (just park Falcon underneath one of the yellow platform edges), and Jigglypuff/Wario DI Down and Away (~45-degree angle), they'll just act as if they were pushed off the platform and be able to act immediately after taking the damage. They'll still incur some horizontal knockback, but it's significantly less than normal; at around 100%, you'll still move past the ledge, but not by much. I haven't been able to tech what appears to be a bounce off of the platform, but that might just be because I can't get this to work reliably...

I must've done it just now at least 100 times and I'm not any closer to figuring it out. Does it have to do with Falcon B-Throw's release point? The gravity on Jigglypuff and/or Wario? Does the point of animation before Falcon does a B-Throw affect the victim's height at the initial throw point?

 

[Lavani]

Automatic SDI is still a thing, I'm not sure about throws and it'd be a chore for me to test on 3DS but this sounds really interesting.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Made a quick video example. It shows what normally happens when DI-ing Down/Away, and then the phenomenon that inexplicably happens sometimes when you do the same thing.

 

[Lavani]

Hmm

Try it DIing straight down. It looks to me like you might be getting a right SDI on the launches and a down SDI on the platform landings. If that isn't it then I think it might just be a strange inconsistency with platforms.

It also wouldn't surprise me that you couldn't get it to work at slower settings, the change in effective framerate causes some inconsistencies (Shulk uthrow v 0% Shulk will set him standing on Battlefield platforms on x1 but launches normally on x1/2, for example)

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I've tried it in various different (S?)DI configurations. Holding straight Down and holding straight Away don't seem to do anything. I get it sometimes while attempting quarter-circle DI between Down and Away.

In the video example, I'm definitely just holding a 45-degree angle well in advance; unless going from 46 degrees to 44 degrees does something weird with SDI (like getting two SDI inputs in quick succession, as you're suggesting), I don't know how this would be related to multiple inputs.

 

[Lavani]

Welp, I dunno then. Times like this I wish I had a Wii U ;_;

At the least, here's some slowed-down gifs of what's happening right after the bthrow. Maybe someone else can figure it out, though it really looked like different SDI directions to me.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

As an aside, when I say Away, I mean Left in these instances. Away from the Falcon post-throw I can get it to happen in either direction and on either platform.

 

[Ulevo]

How does port priority work in Smash Wii U?

 

[thehard]

There is none.

 

[Azazel]

P1 has the highest priority. I think. just training mode and use press L to get input at the same time. tto test for yourself

any circumstance that can't be resolved normally
Grab vs Grab
FootStool stun animation vs shield (or anything else that cannot be interrupted by a footstool),
cutscenes such as KO punch vs KO punch.
sudden death and dying at the same time
etc

 

[Ulevo]

There is none.

Is this confirmed? Are all instances where port priority previously applied now void? If so, how do the rules apply?

test for yourself

I did not ask the question so I could be directed to go figure it out on my own time.

 

[Monkley6]

It's the both of these. There has to be enough shield pushback where dropping a shield causes you to keep sliding, and you have to drop your shield in the first place. The main change from Brawl is that you cannot slide off an edge with your shield up now.

Wow... This is going to save me a lot of trouble. I thought it was just really finicky why people were not falling off after railing them at the edge.
Based Reflex.
Not sure where to look so I'll just ask here... What's the standard time to drop shield without any shield stun?

 

[Lavani]

Not sure where to look so I'll just ask here... What's the standard time to drop shield without any shield stun?

11 frames of minimum shield hold time, 7 frames to drop shield.

Allegedly.

I've never gotten around to verifying that despite how long we've been saying it, now that I think about it.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

So is meteor cancelling still in SSB4? I was under the impression that there was no meteor cancelling for the past six months, but someone on the wiki said that they've seen someone do it, so now I don't even know anymore.

 

[Wa_Black]

Why don't we have frame data on shield. On hit doesn't really matter too much, would be useful, but it would just be icing on the cake. But I think frame data on shield is pretty important information to know. I would love to know what am I after block or perfect shielding shieks fair or link's neutral air.

On the ground, getting the data should be simple, but for aerials, you would need to find the shield stun of the aerial and then the frames would depend on where, while in the air, they landed the move.

I have a capture card if anyone would be down to help me get this data.

 

[NickRiddle]

So is meteor cancelling still in SSB4? I was under the impression that there was no meteor cancelling for the past six months, but someone on the wiki said that they've seen someone do it, so now I don't even know anymore.

It isn't.

 

[Gawain]

Why don't we have frame data on shield. On hit doesn't really matter too much, would be useful, but it would just be icing on the cake. But I think frame data on shield is pretty important information to know. I would love to know what am I after block or perfect shielding shieks fair or link's neutral air.

On the ground, getting the data should be simple, but for aerials, you would need to find the shield stun of the aerial and then the frames would depend on where, while in the air, they landed the move.

I have a capture card if anyone would be down to help me get this data.

While I agree that this would be amazing data to have, and is pretty much a staple in every fighting game, I don't think the news would be too happy for Smash 4 haha. Very little is actually safe on shield excepting for spaced aerials from characters like Sheik. I think its just a combination of that it's hard data to compile and that it probably wouldn't give us much to work with.

 

[Lavani]

There's a japanese shieldstun calculator that also calculates frame advantage. The formulae it uses may be a bit off/are unverified, but seems to line up well with everything I've used it for.

Post I made about this awhile back:

http://sixriver.web.fc2.com/ssb4/Guard_Hitstop.htm

Apparently sixriver has a shieldstun calculator now, which calculates attacker hitlag, shielder hitlag, and shielder shieldstun, and has formulae for finding these three things. It also calculates frame (dis)advantage for using a move on shield. I have no idea how accurate it is, but it seems to match up fairly well with what I've observed.

The supposed formulae are:

Attacker Hitlag
(Attack Base Damage ÷ 2.6 + 5) x Hitlag modifier x Element modifier [1.5 if electric, 1 otherwise]

Defender Hitlag
(Attack Base Damage ÷ 2.6 + 5)

Defender Shieldstun
Attack Base Damage ÷ 2.56

A translated calc example using usmash:

Remember to add 7 frames of advantage if they need to drop their shield to punish!

 

[Wa_Black]

While I agree that this would be amazing data to have, and is pretty much a staple in every fighting game, I don't think the news would be too happy for Smash 4 haha. Very little is actually safe on shield excepting for spaced aerials from characters like Sheik. I think its just a combination of that it's hard data to compile and that it probably wouldn't give us much to work with.

I was thinking more for evidence of true punishes, so that instead of going for a grab, I could f-smash or whatever. I'm pretty sure the pros already know what they can punish with what through experience, but I lack that experience and since there is no indication of whether or not the opponent was or wasn't blocking I have no idea what's a true punish and when I try to replicate online, I can't get consistent results because of latency.

There's a japanese shieldstun calculator that also calculates frame advantage. The formulae it uses may be a bit off/are unverified, but seems to line up well with everything I've used it for.

Post I made about this awhile back:

Thanks I'll be sure to use that.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

It isn't.

Okay, that was what I thought. Thanks.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Played around with powershield stuff just now. I'm pretty positive I know how it works now; not sure if this was already known, but I seem to remember people questioning it. After trying different hitlag multipliers in-game, counting frames, and using the Japanese frame advantage calculator (which appears to be accurate regardless of powershield!), here's what I came up with--

When you powershield an attack, you incur the same amount of hitlag freeze AND shieldstun as you would while shielding regularly, but even though you have shieldstun, you aren't pushed back at all. After shieldstun, if you drop your shield as soon as possible, you can cancel your shield drop animation with a Special, Attack, or Jump command, even if that action is buffered. You cannot cancel the shield drop animation with Shield (you weirdo) or non-Jump movement via the Control Stick (like dashing or crouching). You also cannot buffer a roll during shieldstun, in case you were wondering.

In Brawl, it was just the same amount of hitlag freeze, while shieldstun was completely negated.

If you're still holding Shield by the time both hitlag freeze and shieldstun are finished, the shield acts normally after that point. Dropping your shield takes seven frames, buffering Attack gives you a grab, buffering Jump lets you jump out of your shield at the normal time.

Long story short, the benefits a powershield gives are negating the slide (but not the "stun") associated with blocking an attack and preventing you from having to wait seven frames to use an Attack, Special, or Jump input if you drop your shield as soon as possible.

Combined with the fact that you can only buffer one command at a time in Smash 4, this makes powershielding significantly less advantageous than it was in Brawl, since incurring shieldstun means you get worse frame advantage no matter what. It makes aerials out-of-shield really hard in comparison to Brawl, too, since you cannot press Attack in advance, and varying amounts of shieldstun makes it tricky to get reliably.

The good news, however, is that you can still do any grounded attack via buffering, with the exception of Dash Attack (because you can't cancel shield drop with a dash) during hitlag freeze and/or shieldstun. You can do a Jab, any tilt, any Smash, or any Special by pressing (or holding, if you prefer) the command at that time. Just make sure you let go of Shield by the time shieldstun is over.

EDIT: Hey, a video on exactly what I just said--