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Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

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InfinityCollision

InfinityCollision

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Messages
1,245
Been out of the loop a while, is it known that it's possible to significantly boost crawl speed under certain circumstances? I saw something about pivots and crawling in search but what I did was out of landing, not a pivot.
 
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Labernash

Labernash

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
1,674
TheReflexWonder said:
I believe if you buffer an aerial directly from some states, it "eats" the directional input. If you mash an aerial after falling off the stage from a Rapid Jab, you'll get a N-Air, even if you were holding a direction the whole time and even if you don't use the C-Stick.

I think something specifically C-Stick related is that if you're holding a direction and press a different direction with the C-Stick on the frame before an aerial could come out, it will negate all directions and give you a N-Air, too.

Of course, there's also the fact that pressing the C-Stick down and away will register as a Neutral-A input in general, but I figure that's not what you mean.
Click to expand...
Okay, very interesting! Thank you sir!
 
Dr. Tuen

Dr. Tuen

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@ TheReflexWonder TheReflexWonder You've been doing great work recently! Do you know if rolling on the stage, attacking on the stage, or standing up on stage also yield vulnerable frames (similar to the frames you showed a video for with respect to the ledge-jump option)?
 
TheReflexWonder

TheReflexWonder

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The ledge options are all pretty homogenized in terms of frame data. Unfortunately, there don't appear to be any significant weaknesses outside of using options that are fast or meaty enough to cover multiple options at once.

All Ledge Jumps all appear to take 12 frames to get to the IASA and are invincible for the entire animation, but you cannot buffer moves out of a Ledge Jump. My video shows Frame 13, the first vulnerable frame for each character.

Ledge Attacks hit for a single frame and it's usually between Frames 20 and 24, but the total animations all seem to end on Frame 55, and invincibility always ends three frames before the attack comes out.

Ledge Climbs are only vulnerable for a single frame at the very end of the animation, with the full animation lasting anywhere between 31 and 34 frames. If anything, that means if you have an attack that lasts for at least three frames, you can punish any Ledge Climb with the same one timing with enough practice.

Ledge Rolls appear to all have 49-frame animations, with invincibility lasting from Frame 1 to Frame 25-27 (slight variation depends on character; not sure if distance covered by that point is similar between them).
 
TheReflexWonder

TheReflexWonder

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Goodness, I wish I had a recording device that would get 60 FPS footage. The Ledge Climb animations are so misleading here and there. Captain Falcon plants his feet well in advance, for instance, and it throws you off.

I wish I had GIFs of every Ledge Climb into a buffered Shield held for a few frames, in normal speed and 1/2x speed. That would make punishing them on reaction so much easier for people.
 
⑨ball

⑨ball

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Tuen said:
@ TheReflexWonder TheReflexWonder You've been doing great work recently!
Click to expand...
Seriously. Much love for all the hard work.

TheReflexWonder said:
I wish I had GIFs of every Ledge Climb into a buffered Shield held for a few frames, in normal speed and 1/2x speed. That would make punishing them on reaction so much easier for people.
Click to expand...
Palutena and Miis also have very misleading ledge climbs as they about 10 extra frames when climbing. Same amount of vulnerability, but their animations are longer.

edit: This'll be obsolete once we get some solid gifs,and the dlc characters are missing, but for now...

​
:4mario:

Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4luigi:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4peach:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
32|1|1-31

:4bowser:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
35|1|1-34

:4yoshi:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility|
33|1|1-32

:rosalina:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4bowserjr:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4wario2:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4gaw:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4dk:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4diddy:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4link:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4zelda:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
33|1|1-32

:4sheik:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4ganondorf:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
33|1|1-32

:4tlink:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4samus:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
32|1|1-31

:4zss:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4pit::4darkpit:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4palutena:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
44|1|1-33

:4marth::4lucina:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
32|1|1-31

:4myfriends:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33|

:4robinf:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33|

:4kirby:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
33|1|1-32

:4dedede:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4metaknight:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4littlemac:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
32|1|1-33

:4fox:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4falco:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4pikachu:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
32|1|1-31

:4charizard:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4lucario:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4jigglypuff:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33|

:4greninja:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
32|1|1-31

:4duckhunt:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4rob:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
35|1|1-34

:4ness:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4falcon:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
32|1|1-33

:4villager:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4olimar:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4wiifit:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
33|1|1-32

:4drmario:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4shulk:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4pacman:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4megaman:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4sonic:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4mewtwo:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4lucas:
[There's a doorknob at your feet.]

:4miibrawl:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
44|1|1-43

:4miisword:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
44|1|1-43

:4miigun:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
44|1|1-43|
 
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D

Doval

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TheReflexWonder said:
Goodness, I wish I had a recording device that would get 60 FPS footage.
Click to expand...
I just saw your ledge drop video and I believe you do. The problem is that your video is interlaced. CRT TVs had 480 lines and displayed 60 frames per second, but they'd alternate between using the even lines and the odd lines. This effectively gave you 480 lines of resolution when the video was stationary while halving the amount of video data.

Your capture card's taking two frames at a time and merging the even and odd lines into a single image. That's where the comb-like artifacts in your video are coming from - you're seeing two different game frames zipped together. There's two ways of getting 60 FPS back:
  1. Separate the images so you end up with 60 half-frames per second. (Remember, the video only contains either the even or the odd lines of any given in-game frame.) The result will look squished, but you can shrink it horizontally by 50% to get the original aspect ratio back.
  2. Alternatively, you can intelligently fill in the gaps of each image using the previous and following frames.
Method 2 is best for "real" videos since it comes pretty close to reconstructing the original 480p video. However I prefer method 1 for frame data since I don't need the video to be large and it saves quite a bit of space. I've got some short Roy clips in Google Drive you can look at that I recorded with a $30 USB 2.0 capture card from 2004. (Note: the preview is blurry since it gets severely compressed by YouTube.) You can see they're a quarter of the usual size but very sharp and run at 60 FPS.

If you want I can write up how I deinterlace my videos. It's not particularly difficult.
 
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raymundoTheGod

raymundoTheGod

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Is there a list of Smash 4 general and advanced techniques anywhere? The One Smash Tech Tree is blurry for me. And I would rather a list than have to search
 
A_Kae

A_Kae

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raymundoTheGod said:
Is there a list of Smash 4 general and advanced techniques anywhere? The One Smash Tech Tree is blurry for me. And I would rather a list than have to search
Click to expand...
This isn't what you're looking for I think, but it does list some advanced techs.

As for a proper list, I don't know of any.

Is there something specific that you're looking for?
 
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busken

busken

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What is the melee equivalent of dash dancing in this game? Sometimes I dash then short hop backwards which is usually good.
 
Dagon97

Dagon97

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busken said:
What is the melee equivalent of dash dancing in this game? Sometimes I dash then short hop backwards which is usually good.
Click to expand...
Fox trotting is the unintentional replacement of dash dancing, it works really well in tech chase situations if they are in a corner and assuming your character has a quick dash speed. It is foxtrotting at different frequencies back and forth.
 
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A_Kae

A_Kae

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busken said:
What is the melee equivalent of dash dancing in this game? Sometimes I dash then short hop backwards which is usually good.
Click to expand...
A combination of dash dancing and fox trotting, (typically called dance trotting) has a similar use. But there isn't a direct equivalent.
 
busken

busken

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Dagon97 said:
Fox trotting is the unintentional replacement of dash dancing, it works really well in tech chase situations if they are in a corner and assuming your character has a quick dash speed. It is foxtrotting at different frequencies back and forth.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I do that the problem with fox trot back and forth is that your back dash is so vulnerable like once you hit the ground you need to wait like a frame or before you can shield. Also, projectiles can just hit you easily. But it's faster then dash short hop backwards.

EDIT: I saw this video on slide hopping some tech on youtube can't find it tho. It has some guy using Ike.
 
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Dagon97

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busken said:
Yeah, I do that the problem with fox trot back and forth is that your back dash is so vulnerable like once you hit the ground you need to wait like a frame or before you can shield. Also, projectiles can just hit you easily. But it's faster then dash short hop backwards.

EDIT: I saw this video on slide hopping some tech on youtube can't find it tho. It has some guy using Ike.
Click to expand...
Most projectiles are fairly reasonable to react to and you can shield/jump if need be but otherwise dashing outside your opponents space will put pressure upon your opponent and have them make a mistake.
 
busken

busken

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Jumping gives you more offensive options though, and easily dodges most projectiles.
 
Dagon97

Dagon97

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busken said:
Jumping gives you more offensive options though, and easily dodges most projectiles.
Click to expand...
I don't know about that a fox trot marth tipper fsmash or falcon fox trot to dthrow to knee sounds better...... idk with Ike though if that is what you are talking about.
 
busken

busken

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Dagon97 said:
I don't know about that a fox trot marth tipper fsmash or falcon fox trot to dthrow to knee sounds better...... idk with Ike though if that is what you are talking about.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the replies man, I like how responsive this thread is. I will mess around with grounded mobility options to see which one best fits my character selection, option select, and MU.
 
A_Kae

A_Kae

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Something to keep in mind about grounded and air movement is that most characters move faster when running than in the air.
 
cot(θ)

cot(θ)

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With c-stick set to attack, pressing diagonally will result in jab or Nair. However, with c-stick set to special, I can't seem to input a neutral b by pressing diagonally. Can someone confirm that this is impossible?
 
A_Kae

A_Kae

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TheAnomaly

TheAnomaly

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A_Kae said:
It seems to be: Slide towards edge, (by rolling, pivot f-tilts, maybe other stuff) and hold the analog stick in the direction of the ledge, (so if it's the left ledge, hold left, if right, hold right).

It doesn't seem to be particularly useful though.
Click to expand...
Characters with a forward facing aerial would love to disagree with you (yoshi nair, sheik fair). Being slightly closer to the edge when falling off is the difference between the attack sending them back away from the stage or whiffing because you missed their recovery path. Very situational. but very useful. As a yoshi player myself, I can tell you how frustrating it is to attempt to kill someone with nair and they get hit in the direction of the stage because i was too far away from the ledge
 
A_Kae

A_Kae

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How exactly is shield pushback calculated? It seems to be purely based on damage from my testing, but I can't be sure that there isn't some modifier that gives some moves more pushback than others.
 
TheReflexWonder

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A_Kae said:
How exactly is shield pushback calculated? It seems to be purely based on damage from my testing, but I can't be sure that there isn't some modifier that gives some moves more pushback than others.
Click to expand...
As far as I know, it's all dependent on damage (and whether or not you powershielded, of course). Added shield damage modifiers don't appear to affect it.
 
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vegeta18

vegeta18

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What is the best way to practice stage tech's and tech's after you've been smashed in smash 4
 
Dr. Tuen

Dr. Tuen

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I've combed through data and found that certain aerials benefit from waiting until their landing lag window is over. Here are two differentiating examples:

ZSS - nair
Landing Lag Window: 4 - 41
Landing Lag - 10
Last Hitbox Frame - 16

For ZSS, it's best to hit with nair and land ASAP. A frame-perfect version of that would have her landing on frame 17, incurring 10 frames of landing lag, and being free to move on frame 27. If she waited, she would wait until frame 42, incur fast fall landing frames (four, two if you are not fast falling) and be free to move on frame 46.

Fast Landing - Frame 27
Delayed Landing - Frame 46

This is the case for many moves. However, some play out like this...

Sheik - fair
Landing Lag Window: 5 - 10
Landing Lag - 10
Last Hitbox Frame - 7

For Sheik, landing just after the hitboxes are out looks like this: land on frame 8, incur 10 frames of landing lag, and be free to act on frame 18. However... if she waits until her landing lag window is over, it looks like this: land on frame 11, incur 4 frames of fast fall landing lag, and be free to act on frame 15.

Fast Landing - Frame 18
Delayed Landing - Frame 15

Which is... obnoxious. Sheik doing this to people on shield means that any OoS option that's 4 frames or shorter are invalidated (some shield stun/shield lock frame shenanigans apply). And that is, in fairness, assuming perfect play on both player's part.

SO!

I've been told that this is week 1 Sheik stuff, but I couldn't shake that this could be looked at further. So I parsed out every character's aerials based on sixriver's data [REF 1] and found that somewhere on the order of 106 aerials fit this bill. Granted, some fit numerically but do not fit practically. ZSS' dair is a good example. Technically it has a "landing lag window" but really, an attack forms at her landing and she incurs the... half second (ish) lag anyways.

This was done before the patch though, so I have to wait on another data dump. sixriver seems to have added the DLC characters to his (her? I don't know this person) database, so it may be updated. If I can confirm that or get a dump from @Thinkaman I can re-do this number crunch and post it, if people are interested.
 
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David Viran

David Viran

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Tuen said:
I've combed through data and found that certain aerials benefit from waiting until their landing lag window is over. Here are two differentiating examples:

ZSS - nair
Landing Lag Window: 4 - 41
Landing Lag - 10
Last Hitbox Frame - 16

For ZSS, it's best to hit with nair and land ASAP. A frame-perfect version of that would have her landing on frame 16, incurring 10 frames of landing lag, and being free to move on frame 26. If she waited, she would wait until frame 42, incur fast fall landing frames (four, two if you are not fast falling) and be free to move on frame 46.

Fast Landing - Frame 26
Delayed Landing - Frame 46

This is the case for many moves. However, some play out like this...

Sheik - fair
Landing Lag Window: 5 - 10
Landing Lag - 10
Last Hitbox Frame - 7

For Sheik, landing just after the hitboxes are out looks like this: land on frame 7, incur 10 frames of landing lag, and be free to act on frame 17. However... if she waits until her landing lag window is over, it looks like this: land on frame 8, incur 4 frames of fast fall landing lag, and be free to act on frame 12.

Fast Landing - Frame 17
Delayed Landing - Frame 12

Which is... obnoxious. Sheik doing this to people on shield means that any OoS option that's 4 frames or shorter are invalidated (some shield stun/shield lock frame shenanigans apply). And that is, in fairness, assuming perfect play on both player's part.

SO!

I've been told that this is week 1 Sheik stuff, but I couldn't shake that this could be looked at further. So I parsed out every character's aerials based on sixriver's data [REF 1] and found that somewhere on the order of 106 aerials fit this bill. Granted, some fit numerically but do not fit practically. ZSS' dair is a good example. Technically it has a "landing lag window" but really, an attack forms at her landing and she incurs the... half second (ish) lag anyways.

This was done before the patch though, so I have to wait on another data dump. sixriver seems to have added the DLC characters to his (her? I don't know this person) database, so it may be updated. If I can confirm that or get a dump from @Thinkaman I can re-do this number crunch and post it, if people are interested.
Click to expand...
Wait, I'm confused. Why does sheik land only one frame later with the auto cancel window when the auto cancel window comes out 3 frames after the active frames?
 
Dr. Tuen

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David Viran said:
Wait, I'm confused. Why does sheik land only one frame later with the auto cancel window when the auto cancel window comes out 3 frames after the active frames?
Click to expand...
Because I'm awesome at math! I fixed it. Turns out she gets a 3 frame benefit. A separate calculation regarding the on-shield hit was done to determine her viability vs 4 frame response options.

Thanks for the catch!

Edit - I also made it so the example characters land one frame AFTER their hitboxes end. This decouples this phenomenon from the frame sync phenomenon (aka "Frame Cancel" ... I stand by the name I use).

Edit 2 - Interestingly enough, if Shiek hits on the first frame of fair, frame 4, and then lands on frame 5... she gets to act on frame 16. So, hitting on and earlier frame and landing ASAP is another way to cut off frames. I can investigate that separately... again, when I have fresh data to mine.
 
Last edited:
AnchorTea

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Something just came across my mind...

What exactly makes something an AT? Could an AT just be called a Technique? The more I think about it, it seems like certain AT's where called AT's just because they where called that at first.

Or i'm just slowly going crazy...
 
A_Kae

A_Kae

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AnchorTea said:
Something just came across my mind...

What exactly makes something an AT? Could an AT just be called a Technique? The more I think about it, it seems like certain AT's where called AT's just because they where called that at first.

Or i'm just slowly going crazy...
Click to expand...
What people call an 'AT' is super arbitrary. There's nothing that really makes an AT different from other stuff.
 
AnchorTea

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A_Kae said:
What people call an 'AT' is super arbitrary. There's nothing that really makes an AT different from other stuff.
Click to expand...
So I can say that...

"This D-throw into F-Smash combo is an AT!"?

That seems odd...
 
Kofu

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AnchorTea said:
So I can say that...

"This D-throw into F-Smash combo is an AT!"?

That seems odd...
Click to expand...
This is my two cents but there aren't many true ATs in Smash 4. The way I see it, an AT would be an input that goes beyond the normal movement options/button inputs and would not normally or feasibly be done in average, casual play. Sometimes the inputs are faster than normal and require frame perfection (or close to it), other times they just combine inputs in an odd way.

Wavedashing in Melee is a good example of an AT from unusual inputs. I believe it was discovered by accident, but air dodging diagonally into the ground to get a momentum boost while keeping all standing option open is not something I'd call typical. DACUS, while it has a straightforward name, is also odd and required a set of particular and fast inputs. Not all ATs are useful, though. Ganon's Super Jump in Brawl is an example here. If you had used up your double jump and airdodged so the animation ended one frame before you landed, then buffered a jump input and a DSpecial input, he would fly very high in the air. Unfortunately it takes time to set up and then you have Ganon higher in the air he was meant to be without his double jump (though fully able to act otherwise).
 
TheReflexWonder

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How does "partial" pressure affect (S)DI? For example, if I get hit by Fox's U-Smash and I hold Left/Right at half of its maximum amount (as in, it would cause my character to walk slowly, instead of walk at full speed/run). Is it incremental or is it just a no effect/full effect thing?
 
A_Kae

A_Kae

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TheReflexWonder said:
How does "partial" pressure affect (S)DI? For example, if I get hit by Fox's U-Smash and I hold Left/Right at half of its maximum amount (as in, it would cause my character to walk slowly, instead of walk at full speed/run). Is it incremental or is it just a no effect/full effect thing?
Click to expand...
I'm almost certain that tilting works the same as holding all the way for SDI and DI. As long as you move the stick far enough to actually register as an input.

I don't suppose we know how rage works yet? I haven't seen any discussion on it recently, so I assume not.
 
Last edited:
Ixisnaugus

Ixisnaugus

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This was talked about a while ago in this thread, but I'd like to ask about the clashing/clanking mechanics in this game again because again I failed to find an archived post detailing how it works specifically, if it exists. I'd like to know what values determine how much frames one receives during "clash lag", or whatever it is we call the animation when a clash happens. Someone said the amount of frames of lag received is determined by the "power" of moves, but I'd like some elaboration if this is the case. Does the calculation come from the percent dealt by the move used to clash? How exactly is the amount of lag frames received calculated? Is it a difference between numbers of the moves clashing, so something like "X characters move dealt 4% damage and clashed with Y characters move which dealt 5% damage, so X character receives 1 frame of additional lag due to the difference in damage dealt by the clashing moves", or is it something more complex than this? Or if percent isn't a factor, is it base knockback, or something else entirely?
 
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