Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Pazx]

Hey, I haven't really used Smash boards much but I figure this is the best place for advice and I am planning on being a little active on this website. For reference I am a competitive player, I'm not the best but not the worst. My first tournament was Apex 2015, doubles only, and only made it to semifinals first bracket. I'm planning on beginning to attend local tournaments for experience.

Does anyone have any advice for:
-Fast falling from on stage to the ledge
-DI, I think I've known how to do this but sometimes I feel like its not coming out right, for example if I get knocked towards the left, do I want my joystick pushed top right?
-I don't really understand out of shield moves
-Is moving your shield necessary really?
-Another thing which really isn't tech is advice on approaching. I tend to be much more of an arieal fighter and I always get the stand there and shielding waiting for me to go in, I do grab them and stuff, not just aerials, but is there a good way to approach with this kind of play style?

Any advice or answers to this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

For the record questions like this probably belong in this thread.

Fast falling from stage to ledge: you cannot grab onto the ledge whilst you are holding down on the control stick. If you want to fast fall to the ledge you MUST not be holding down when in ledge snap range. It's all about timing.

DI: If you are hit left, hold right. If you are hit up, hold left or right. It's different in this game so I can't show you a good video.

Out of Shield (OoS): If you shield an attack that is your chance to counterattack. You usually have a small window of time to punish your opponent while they're in cooldown, so you try to use one of the quickest options. Your standard options are to let go of shield, grab (hold shield + press attack), dodge, roll or jump. Letting go of shield is meh because it takes a little bit of time before you can actually do anything after that, but both grabbing and jumping out of shield bypass that lag. Grabbing is self explanatory but jumping opens up a realm of possibilities. Obviously you can use any aerial attack once you're airborne but more importantly you can cancel your jumping animation before your character leaves the ground into an up-smash or up-special.

Angling your shield: not really important but it doesn't hurt.

Approaching: if your standard approach would be to dash towards and then jump + aerial, try these mixup options.

Dash Grab/Attack - don't jump, just run in and grab/attack. Grab if they usually hold shield against your aerial approaches.
Pivot Grab/Ftilt - run past them and do a pivot (turnaround) ftilt or grab. This is good against a shielding opponent, grab catches them if they hold shield and ftilt catches them if they drop it
Crossup aerials - use an aerial but aim to land behind the opponent so that they cannot grab you out of shield.
Fade back aerials - use an aerial while using your aerial mobility to drift backwards so you're out of range for some of their options
Tomahawk - jump, but instead of using an aerial land normally and grab instantly. Good if your opponent predicts an aerial and shields.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

I watched MySmashCorner video on Mewtwo this week, and the Jump Cancelled Up-Smash seems to be a rather good technique. I've done it those last days and did not notice anything different, not even Momentum being transferred. Am I doing something wrong?

 

[Lavani]

I made translation images for http://sixriver.web.fc2.com/ssb4/Character_data.htm for those having issues with the language barrier.

Spoiler: Tab 1

Spoiler: Tab 3

 

[san.]

I never used dtilt very much in previous games. Is the inability to turn around during dtilt's IASA frames exclusive to Smash 4, or was it in the previous smash games?

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

I watched MySmashCorner video on Mewtwo this week, and the Jump Cancelled Up-Smash seems to be a rather good technique. I've done it those last days and did not notice anything different, not even Momentum being transferred. Am I doing something wrong?

Anyone??

 

[Big O]

I never used dtilt very much in previous games. Is the inability to turn around during dtilt's IASA frames exclusive to Smash 4, or was it in the previous smash games?

I've noticed this as well and it is something I don't remember being in Brawl. You can walk forward and then turn around to get around that though.

The other really weird thing I noticed is that for some reason you can't Neutral B while your character is in a crouch or is getting up from a crouch. Since I liked using crouch as a feint when I want to punch people with counters, that took me a while to adjust to.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I made translation images for http://sixriver.web.fc2.com/ssb4/Character_data.htm for those having issues with the language barrier.

I'm merging the data here with the data already on smash boards (Dantarion et al.) for ZSS. If you can help with translating the 2nd tab as well, that'd be really awesome. Thank you!

 

[Lavani]

I'm merging the data here with the data already on smash boards (Dantarion et al.) for ZSS. If you can help with translating the 2nd tab as well, that'd be really awesome. Thank you!

Paralyzer
- Active (min)
- Total (min)
- Active (max)
- Total (max)

Side B
- Active
- Total

Up B
- Active
- Landing lag

Down B
- Total (no attack)
- Landing lag after attacking

 

[TheBardlyBard]

36 Seconds, im toon link, i dont know how i did it, but i did
kinda looks like a waveland

 

[TheAnomaly]

36 Seconds, im toon link, i dont know how i did it, but i did
kinda looks like a waveland

I've noticed that in this game in some situations certain characters can start dashing before their character model looks like it has landed and it has some weird momentum thing going on. I normally see it happen when I fast fall and try to dash right before I hit the ground. Hope that helped.

 

[NickRiddle]

You landed... and dashed...?

 

[NotAnAdmin]

That was just a landing into dash done really quickly.
I doubt that T. Link would slide that far from a waveland, his grip isn't that loose.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

How do multihit moves and staleness work? I've heared some conflicting things on the topic.

 

[Jaxas]

How do multihit moves and staleness work? I've heared some conflicting things on the topic.

It's way out of date (3DS days), but I'd assume that nothing has changed from my old research thread on it.
Basically, multi-hit moves are counted as one "attack", so they only enter the stale move queue once per attack use (that hits).

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

It's way out of date (3DS days), but I'd assume that nothing has changed from my old research thread on it.
Basically, multi-hit moves are counted as one "attack", so they only enter the stale move queue once per attack use (that hits).

Right on, thanks for the heads up. Could you tell me also how many slots there are on the queue perse? How many moves would I have to enter into the queue to completely freshen another?

 

[Jaxas]

Right on, thanks for the heads up. Could you tell me also how many slots there are on the queue perse? How many moves would I have to enter into the queue to completely freshen another?

It should say in the thread I linked...

Yeah:

• How many moves are in the Stale Move Queue?
  • There are exactly 9 moves in the Stale Move Queue.
  • Confirmed through fully staling a move, then hitting with X other moves, then testing the original move and seeing if the damage is fresh.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

It should say in the thread I linked...

Yeah:

Doi, didn't notice. Thanks on two counts now.

 

[Spirit Gun]

Does anyone know how this was possible, it happened to my friends a while back.

 

[John12346]

If you allow the opponent to land on solid ground after the break, and then you nudge them off the stage BEFORE they go into the "spinning stars" animation they'll make a complete recovery immediately.

 

[Shaya]

I think there may be avenues of research we need to look into for abusing the way the game interprets C stick + analog movements together for increasing speed/buffering in general.

A lot of people have mentioned recently about holding down + a c-stick aerial will auto fast fall (if you're past your apex) and I noticed that this will apply even if you do it pre apex if you're holding the c-stick down for "longer". May be crazy but I do think engine changes have occurred because I'm otherwise doing jabs or nairs with c-stick inputs on occasion that wasn't EVER happening prior to 1.06.

Another buffer trick I've spotted is (for example) during your dash, you press shield and c stick down and you'll buffer a spot dodge at the end of your dash animation. If you maintain the control stick forward you'll buffer a forward roll after the spot dodge after letting go of the c-stick.

 

[Daymaster]

I do believe I have found a new AT. On any stage with slopes, you can slide by fastfalling in to them with aerial momentum. Each character will slide different amounts based on air speed and fast-fall speed. Performing any action will quickly stop the slide. This can be used for retreating aerials or extra movement. The bigger the slope, the farther the slide is generally.. I call it "wave slopeing".

 

[Xermo]

I do believe I have found a new AT. On any stage with slopes, you can slide by fastfalling in to them with aerial momentum. Each character will slide different amounts based on air speed and fast-fall speed. Performing any action will quickly stop the slide. This can be used for retreating aerials or extra movement. The bigger the slope, the farther the slide is generally.. I call it "wave slopeing".

Not to crush your enthusiasm, but this is well known. A lot of custom stage makers utilize this with their works.

 

[Daymaster]

Not to crush your enthusiasm, but this is well known. A lot of custom stage makers utilize this with their works.

Sorry, I don't know what is known and not, I'm new to Smashboards. Thanks for letting me know.

 

[Deleted member]

Sorry, I don't know what is known and not, I'm new to Smashboards. Thanks for letting me know.

Even then, besides the custom stages, which of the currently legal stages does this works on?

 

[Daymaster]

Even then, besides the custom stages, which of the currently legal stages does this works on?

It works on Castle Siege, Halberd, parts of Dalfino, parts of Skyloftt and Lylat. Also Kongo Jungle if you consider that legeal. It is great for Falcon, Fox and other fast fallers/air movers, and is horrible for Jiggs and Kirby.

 

[NickRiddle]

Even then, besides the custom stages, which of the currently legal stages does this works on?

Lylat
Castle Siege
Delfino
Halberd

Just under 50% of the conservative stage list.

 

[busken]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7m0NHkmSDc

What do you guys think about this use for the turnaround f-tilt? I personally think they are exaggerating it and is character dependent since the slide and frame data can make it more effective. Do you guys think this is a potent approach/mix-up tool?

 

[Ffamran]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7m0NHkmSDc

What do you guys think about this use for the turnaround f-tilt? I personally think they are exaggerating it and is character dependent since the slide and frame data can make it more effective. Do you guys think this is a potent approach/mix-up tool?

Snow does this a lot from what I remember and he uses the body hitbox on Fox too which is pretty cool and pretty deceptive since people wouldn't think that Fox's body would hit anything while he's kicking like that.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Snow does this a lot from what I remember and he uses the body hitbox on Fox too which is pretty cool and openly deceptive since people wouldn't think that Fox's body would hit anything while he's kicking like that.

I fixed it for ya.

 

[busken]

Lol, I dont get it...Anyway is it a viable technique?

 

[yoshi8984]

Hm, does anyone else seem to get this thing where they tech but slide off of the platform like right after they do so? o.o

Something such as this.
(Unsure if it also could've just been Greninja pushing me off lol)

 

[NickRiddle]

Smash 4: Directional Influence (DI) Explanation
by BengalsRZ

 

[busken]

Smash 4: Directional Influence (DI) Explanation
by BengalsRZ

@ LiteralGrill
Put this stuff on the Smashboards homepage ASAP

 

[LiteralGrill]

@ LiteralGrill
Put this stuff on the Smashboards homepage ASAP

Do you see the front page? :O

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

How do I know whether I've done a perfect pivot grab or just a pivot grab? I think I might be perfect pivotting but I can only pull f-tilt and sometimes a grab within the movement.

 

[busken]

Do you see the front page? :O

i posted that an hour before you put in up anyway cool!

 

[vegeta18]

Okay so i watched the video by bengalz explaining smash 4`s DI, which im sure a ridiculous amount of people were wondering about in this game. I did a bit of further reading and seen a bunch of comments on this site and youtube, and had a few questions still.

1. are smash di, tap di and momentum cancelling still a thing in smash 4?
2. if hit upwards in a diagonal direction, do you hold directly left/right or do you have to hold down left/right?
3. what is the best way to die out of moves like a string of up tilits by characters like mario or fox?
4. what is the best way to di and get out of something like a continuous jab(ie. little mac or luma holding their jabs too long giving you time to get out of it)
5. when thinking about things like tap di, used to use both sticks in brawl, could changing your c-stick to tilts affect any of this?( i hope what i just said for this question makes sense if not just ignore it and answer the other ones lol)

 

[Lavani]

SDI still exists, I've pretty much dedicated my sig to informing people of that.

I'd type more on the other questions but

 

[MrTeddyBear]

Okay so i watched the video by bengalz explaining smash 4`s DI, which im sure a ridiculous amount of people were wondering about in this game. I did a bit of further reading and seen a bunch of comments on this site and youtube, and had a few questions still.

1. are smash di, tap di and momentum cancelling still a thing in smash 4?
2. if hit upwards in a diagonal direction, do you hold directly left/right or do you have to hold down left/right?
3. what is the best way to die out of moves like a string of up tilits by characters like mario or fox?
4. what is the best way to di and get out of something like a continuous jab(ie. little mac or luma holding their jabs too long giving you time to get out of it)
5. when thinking about things like tap di, used to use both sticks in brawl, could changing your c-stick to tilts affect any of this?( i hope what i just said for this question makes sense if not just ignore it and answer the other ones lol)

1. SDI/Tap DI still exists, but momentum canceling is gone.
2. Hold directly opposite to the horizontal direction that you get launched (ex. hold left when you get launched up-right)
3. SDI up and away from the string, and DI away (left/right) after.
4. Keep SDIing away from the hits (tapping away repeatedly for each hit)
5. I think that dual-stick DI is out for this game: the C-Stick would just override the inputs for the Control-Stick and the effect won't stack up like it did in Brawl.

 

[Hokuwokk]

What you guys think?? Wanted to show yall what i came up with. You think itd be escapable? In theory if someine were to roll you would just have to predict where they would roll and then perfect pivot the opposite way and catch them with a jab 1 or d tilt. Maybe some other options along those lines too. Would deff like some feed back.