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Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

Was your discovery something new or real?


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    238

DelxDoom

Smash Lord
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can someone explain to me why it's called "reverse aerial rush" and not something actually logical like "pivot jump"
 

TheReflexWonder

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can someone explain to me why it's called "reverse aerial rush" and not something actually logical like "pivot jump"
Names were generally first-come-first-serve, and this was found in the very beginning of Brawl's lifespan.
 

Opana

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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cktroIrZ5Tk

Just calling it skid boosting atm, come to a running stop at the ledge and using most specials across every character should produce similar effects.
Did more testing, not done yet but some things worth noting:

-Not every character can as I once thought, like Mac or Shulk

-Apparently using a special away then breversing it allows some specials to be used off the ledge. Even moves not reversible, like a fully charged FLUDD, were able to be used in this way by using it towards the stage then quickly pressing the other direction. This is fantastic for Mario as I don't think he can use it running off the stage and recover otherwise, offering a new range for his FLUDD. For now I will just call this reverse skid boosting(RSB), and will work on compiling a list while putting (RSB) next to ones where it is needed. Will get a vid demonstrating the FLUDD bit.

EDIT:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OsQjI-gvWkw

Can make a thread in a bit?

EDIT2: Apparently it can be done by using the special follow by pressing the difection towards the ledge, much easier than the reverse method for every special.
 
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Saltix

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Can anyone shed some light on shield mechanics in this game? The main thing that piqued my interest was my general inconsistency with pushing foes/getting pushed off of platforms/ledges, but while I'm trying to figure that out I'd also like to educate myself on the workings of shield health, regeneration and depletion, etc.
 

TheReflexWonder

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Can anyone shed some light on shield mechanics in this game? The main thing that piqued my interest was my general inconsistency with pushing foes/getting pushed off of platforms/ledges, but while I'm trying to figure that out I'd also like to educate myself on the workings of shield health, regeneration and depletion, etc.
Shield pushback is pretty significant, but you cannot be pushed off of an edge if you are currently shielding. If you drop your shield while you're still being pushed a good bit from a shielded attack (generally speaking, only by a strong attack), you'll fall off.

Shield stun appears to be the same or shorter than it was in Brawl.

Shield health seems to deplete passively faster than in Brawl, but it also seems to regenerate when not in use faster. As far as I know, shield health is the same from attacks, but many more attacks have added shield damage values than in Brawl, and the added passive shield drain has more of an effect during the split-second you're shielding a move, too.
 
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Big O

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Can anyone shed some light on shield mechanics in this game? The main thing that piqued my interest was my general inconsistency with pushing foes/getting pushed off of platforms/ledges, but while I'm trying to figure that out I'd also like to educate myself on the workings of shield health, regeneration and depletion, etc.
Whether or not you slide off an edge after blocking a strong hit depends on what you buffer OoS. If you buffer a grab, jump, or certain specials you will slide off. Buffering other things or waiting a bit for the momentum to weaken will prevent you from sliding off.
 

Lavani

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Certain specials involving movement can cause rather significant slides when cancelled by slopes. @DatRedYoshi posted about this with (Dark) Pit's sideB yesterday; I did some brief experimentation and found Captain Falcon's sideB 3 and, in a less similar vein, Robin's upB 3 can be used for this as well.

With the Pits/Falcon, you jump and immediately sideB away from the slope.


Not sure if there's a whole lot of use for this (can't act until near the end of the slide), but at the very least it's a neat little movement gimmick. I'd imagine more characters can do something like this too.
 
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Azazel

Smash Journeyman
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Could someone help me figure out optimal Pivot Grabs

By knowing the following
  • Skid canceled Pivot Grab: Slide the length of your skid whilst doing a pivot grab.
  • Roll canceled Pivot Grab
  • Dash Grab canceled Pivot Grab
  • Dash attack canceled Pivot Grab
You can combine them like this
  • Roll > Dash Grab > Pivot Grab
  • Dash attack > Dash Grab > Pivot Grab
I'd like to learn if the momentum gets compounded in a meaningful way if you do so

Also a quick tech for yall.

Instant Dash Grab canceled Pivot Grab: You do it so quickly that teh dust from dashing doesn't appear. Also it is super easy and consistent

:GCR:(dash) > :GCZ: (Dash Grab) > :GCCL: (Pivot Grab)

instead of :GCR: > :GCL:+:GCZ:

You don't need lighting thumbs to insta pivot grab.

The Dash Grab actually does boost the Pivot Grab, so the farther apart the input from :GCZ: > :GCCL: = a farther slide which you may not actually not want. If you don't slide far is can actually be used reach farther than your standing grab because of the increased range of pivot grab. I think teh most notable example of this is Donkey Kong. He has a poor standing grab compared to his amazing Pivot Grab range.

If you want the Insta Pivot Grab as short as possible do this non-Dash Grab variant

:GCR:(dash) > :GCCL: (this substitutes :GCL:) + :GCZ: (Pivot Grab)

It was like trying to do Insta Dash attack by :GCR: > :GCD:+:GCA: instead of simply :GCR: + :GCCD:
 
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Saltix

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Shield pushback is pretty significant, but you cannot be pushed off of an edge if you are currently shielding. If you drop your shield while you're still being pushed a good bit from a shielded attack (generally speaking, only by a strong attack), you'll fall off.

Shield stun appears to be the same or shorter than it was in Brawl.

Shield health seems to deplete passively faster than in Brawl, but it also seems to regenerate when not in use faster. As far as I know, shield health is the same from attacks, but many more attacks have added shield damage values than in Brawl, and the added passive shield drain has more of an effect during the split-second you're shielding a move, too.
Appreciate the answers everyone (forgot how to multi quote lol). After you all explained it, it definitely makes sense as to why I would tend to fall off edges. Also, I agree with you and Shaya; I believe that shield stun is definitely shorter in this game as compared to Brawl.
 

Big O

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Shield stun is like... half? of Brawl's, to give a rough guesstimate.
I don't think this is true. From what I can tell (I just started testing this out) shieldstun is the same as it was in Brawl.
 

mimgrim

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can someone explain the reason why it could be beneficial to switch your c stick, from smash attack, to just standard attack ? thank you
The main reason for most people is for more consistent control of you aerial attacks. With it set to Smash Attacks you have to flick the C-stick in like 1 or 2 frames of precision to be able to FF it or have control which direction you move while doing it (like retreating Fairs, for example). While with it set to Standard Attacks you can do attacks in the air with it just like in past games.
 
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Ayce God

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The main reason for most people is for more consistent control of you aerial attacks. With it set to Smash Attacks you have to flick the C-stick in like 1 or 2 frames of precision to be able to FF it or have control which direction you move while doing it (like retreating Fairs, for example). While with it set to Standard Attacks you can do attacks in the air with it just like in past games.
hey, thank you. sometimes when doing an aerial , I will accidentally Nair, while using the c stick. how is that possible ?
 

mimgrim

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hey, thank you. sometimes when doing an aerial , I will accidentally Nair, while using the c stick. how is that possible ?
When you hit it diagonally while it is set to Standard Attacks you will end up doing a Nair/Jab. That's the only way I know how to do Nairs/Jabs with the C-stick.
 

LawofDeath

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When you hit it diagonally while it is set to Standard Attacks you will end up doing a Nair/Jab. That's the only way I know how to do Nairs/Jabs with the C-stick.
Also can happen Diagonally with Smash set
 

TheReflexWonder

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I'm pretty sure you'll also get a N-Air if you try to buffer a C-Stick input out of certain states, probably because of the "only buffer one input at a time" dealie. For example, if you slide off the stage while doing a Rapid Jab, or certain OoS stuff.
 
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TheReflexWonder

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Nothing new since Brawl about footstool mechanics, as far as I can tell. I did learn that you could footstool someone out of any point in their grab animation and consequently cancel the grab's start-up.

 

Opana

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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nppl3THO5p0

So I accidentally did some platform cancel off rush with Morton by jumping as I passed through it, need help replicating and finding if it works other places though. Looks just like the Smashville on from Brawl imo.
 

STiCKYBULL3TZ

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Due to factors such as no aerial momentum from a run and slower air speeds, is tech chasing a viable option in this game or are they limited to certain characters or reads?
 

HeroMystic

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Usually if you have sourspots and Sakurai angles, you're capable of setting up a tech chase. This hasn't been something that is being explored though.
 

STiCKYBULL3TZ

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Gotcha. I didn't think so because I have yet to see any footage of someone really utilizing it. All I've seen are tech reads are platform tech chases
 

Opana

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Unsure if known but st the start of a skid before you skide you can input a special, or even wavebounce one if you're fast enough.
 

Luigisama

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Am I the only one who finds it difficult to edgeguard people who recover low now? With edgehogging gone and all, alot of attacks I know don't seem to be able to hit people grabbing the ledge (or at least from the characters I play, besides DHD's Fsmash).
You need a move that can trade with the up b or just learn the timing of each up b to trump to a follow up. You can even trump then get back on the stage to prevent you're opponent from getting on stage to avoid being hit, but punish them for grabbing the ledge since ledge invicibility has been removed from a 2nd ledge grab.
 

Azazel

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Donkey Kong, Bowser, and charizard have interesting Footstool animations. When they are footstooled, their heads roll and the opponents follow along. This allows characters with fast, forward facing aerials to connect after a footstool, such as luigi's Nair, Little Macs Nair, and Diddy Kongs Uair.

DK and Bowser roll towards the direction opposite of which their the footstooler is facing.
Charizard Rolls towards the same direction the footstooler is facing.

This allows for some sillyness such as
The first U-air is a set up, everything else is a combo. Don't worry this is not a true 0-death, that would be ridiculous, 0-death off-the-top kill on a place like FD and on a heavy character like DK? That would be beyond dumb. Training mode has no Stale move negation. Though it can on platforms. But hey, what who can't do that?
This may not be a combo , as in moves connecting during hitstun, at low percents, and Little mac has better Kill options at higher percents, but it is scary nontheless.

Pretty much any 3 frame aerial can footstool-scoop up these characters. Obviously notable ones are ones that can send them vertically or kill, like Luigi Nair, or Diddy Uair, or Little Mac Nair, Jiggly Puff Rest and Nair,
 
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GSM_Dren

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So I have a quick question, is there a difference between frame data from ledge getups (stand up, roll, jump, attack) at <100% vs >100%? They show the same animation, but I guess my eyes are too tired to see if there's a difference in speed. Thank you.
 

Azazel

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So I have a quick question, is there a difference between frame data from ledge getups (stand up, roll, jump, attack) at <100% vs >100%? They show the same animation, but I guess my eyes are too tired to see if there's a difference in speed. Thank you.
There is no Frame difference over 100% in this game. I heard there's less invincibilty as your percent scales up but i haven't tested/noticed it first hand.
Edit: Ithink it is the ledge invincibilty shortens as your percents go up
 
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Pogoshark

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Can someone offer some kind of explaination of what happened when I hit the platform?
To the best of my recollection, I tried to tech the landing, and then aftrwards I think I did a get up attack, hence me getting hit, but I still dont know how I slid from the platform onto the ledge.
 

Lavani

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I noticed that if you're hit while standing, you can't SDI down, even if you first SDI off a ledge or upward so you're airborne during hitlag.

Was this a thing in previous games?
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Can someone offer some kind of explaination of what happened when I hit the platform?
To the best of my recollection, I tried to tech the landing, and then aftrwards I think I did a get up attack, hence me getting hit, but I still dont know how I slid from the platform onto the ledge.
It's called an 'edge cancel'. Look it up in the smash dictionary.
 

TheReflexWonder

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I don't know if this was the case in Brawl, but footstools appear to have their own special buffering property that makes a Jump command cause you to footstool an opponent if they get in range up to 10 frames after you initially pressed Jump. This is completely unaffected by whether or not you have your mid-air jump(s) or whether or not you're pressing it during the cooldown of any other air command you can buffer another move after (this basically just means you can't buffer a footstool out of a Ledge Jump) You can't footstool anyone until the IASA frame of the current command, of course. It also doesn't seem to have a "fail" window and doesn't care if you're already holding a Jump command when you press Jump.

tl;dr--If your character is capable of footstooling someone within 10 frames of pressing Jump, you will do it, and as soon as possible. If you press a Jump command every 10 frames or faster, anyone that gets in range of your potential footstool will be footstooled on the frame they get in range as long as you keep pressing Jump repeatedly.

This could be a big deal for punishing people who consistently airdodge under the ledge before sweetspotting Up-B, since even if some airdodges only have two frames of vulnerability, this will catch it as long as you're in range during those frames. Apparently, airdodges are among the "unfootstoolable" commands, so if the opponent buffers via Attack or Special afterward, they can't be footstooled. :(

Still, since Ledge Jumps don't allow people to buffer commands out of them, this makes footstools a fine choice for punishing Ledge Jumps as characters with momentum-shifting moves. For example, Ganondorf can Down-B immediately afterward. This actually makes for a great way to cover multiple ledge options, as footstool -> Down-B beats Ledge Jump, and the low double-jump that happens when you're not in range lets you avoid Ledge Attack and punish both Ledge Attack and Ledge Climb (and, likely, a ledge hopped aerial for a spike KO!) if you're timing it to hit a Ledge Climb.

EDIT: boop

 
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bmaster77

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I read somewhere a few days ago that there is a way to RAR without having to do the initial dash animation? Does anyone know what I'm talking about and can elaborate more? Thanks
 

Azazel

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I don't know if this was the case in Brawl, but footstools appear to have their own special buffering property that makes a Jump command cause you to footstool an opponent if they get in range up to 10 frames after you initially pressed Jump. This is completely unaffected by whether or not you have your mid-air jump(s) or whether or not you're pressing it during the cooldown of any other air command you can buffer another move after (this basically just means you can't buffer a footstool out of a Ledge Jump) You can't footstool anyone until the IASA frame of the current command, of course. It also doesn't seem to have a "fail" window and doesn't care if you're already holding a Jump command when you press Jump.

tl;dr--If your character is capable of footstooling someone within 10 frames of pressing Jump, you will do it, and as soon as possible. If you press a Jump command every 10 frames or faster, anyone that gets in range of your potential footstool will be footstooled on the frame they get in range as long as you keep pressing Jump repeatedly.

This could be a big deal for punishing people who consistently airdodge under the ledge before sweetspotting Up-B, since even if some airdodges only have two frames of vulnerability, this will catch it as long as you're in range during those frames. Apparently, airdodges are among the "unfootstoolable" commands, so if the opponent buffers via Attack or Special afterward, they can't be footstooled. :(

Still, since Ledge Jumps don't allow people to buffer commands out of them, this makes footstools a fine choice for punishing Ledge Jumps as characters with momentum-shifting moves. For example, Ganondorf can Down-B immediately afterward. This actually makes for a great way to cover multiple ledge options, as footstool -> Down-B beats Ledge Jump, and the low double-jump that happens when you're not in range lets you avoid Ledge Attack and punish both Ledge Attack and Ledge Climb (and, likely, a ledge hopped aerial for a spike KO!) if you're timing it to hit a Ledge Climb.

EDIT: boop

Footstools are funny, if you Buffer a Footstool it will always be a Short hop footstool (Unless your opponent is doing an action that uninterruptible with a footstool, which always forces a full hop.) Even if you are holding the jump button
 
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Tristan_win

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Sheik tipper usmash killing percents with rage. Testing done on Diddy kong on Battle field side platform.

Note: I didn't take into account fractions of percents.

Usmash
0% Sheik 96% Diddy
38% Sheik 96% Diddy
39% Sheik 95% Diddy
45% Sheik 93% Diddy
50% Sheik 92% Diddy
55% Sheik 92% Diddy
60% Sheik 90% Diddy
65% Sheik 89% Diddy
70% Sheik 88% Diddy
75% Sheik 87% Diddy
80% Sheik 87% Diddy
85% Sheik 85% Diddy
90% Sheik 84% Diddy
95% Sheik 83% Diddy
100% Sheik 83% Diddy
105% Sheik 81% Diddy
110% Sheik 81% Diddy
115% Sheik 80% Diddy
120% Sheik 78% Diddy
125% Sheik 78% Diddy
130% Sheik 77% Diddy
135% Sheik 76% Diddy
140% Sheik 75% Diddy
145% Sheik 74% Diddy
200% Sheik 74% Diddy

This helps corrects our previous thoughts about how Rage scaled.
 
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Big O

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I've been doing some shieldstun stuff and I think some people would be interested in what I have so far. For moves that are not projectiles with 1.0x Hitlag Modifiers and non-electric elements, I obtained the following values for shieldstun. From what I can tell it is very similar to Brawl's shieldstun, but moves with higher damage seem to have a bit more.

Damage | Shieldstun
1-5 | 1
6-7 | 2
8-10 | 3
11-12 | 4
13-15 | 5
16-17 | 6
18 | 7
21 | 8
24-25 | 9
28 | 10
30 | 11
 
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