Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Comet7]

is shai dropping in this game?

 

[Tristan_win]

SO, I'm not sure if this is known or not but I found a differences between the 3ds and the Wii U. For whatever reason 'Max Launcher speed' unit of measurement is different going from a unknown unit of measurement to mph.

On the 3ds Sheik ftilt knock back was listed as simply 32 (used at 0% on mario) on the Wii U it's 13mph.

Edit: I have a American 3ds and WiiU with a American copy of smash4.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I messed around with clanking stuff a little bit earlier and it seems to be more complicated than damage. I had a Link Dash Attack (14 or 13%, depending on where you hit) clank with the back of a Link D-Smash (12-10% depending on where you hit) and they were able to shield on the same frame.

Peach Jab1 (2%) and Luigi Jab1 (3%) had Luigi shield a frame earlier, I think. Mario Jab1 (2.5%) and Luigi Jab1 (3%) were able to shield on the same frame.

Mario F-Tilt (7%) and Ness F-Tilt (10%) were able to shield on the same frame. Mario F-Tilt (7%) and the initial hit of ROB D-Smash (2%) were able to shield on the same frame.

 

[san.]

I messed around with clanking stuff a little bit earlier and it seems to be more complicated than damage. I had a Link Dash Attack (14 or 13%, depending on where you hit) clank with the back of a Link D-Smash (12-10% depending on where you hit) and they were able to shield on the same frame.

Peach Jab1 (2%) and Luigi Jab1 (3%) had Luigi shield a frame earlier, I think. Mario Jab1 (2.5%) and Luigi Jab1 (3%) were able to shield on the same frame.

Mario F-Tilt (7%) and Ness F-Tilt (10%) were able to shield on the same frame. Mario F-Tilt (7%) and the initial hit of ROB D-Smash (2%) were able to shield on the same frame.

I'd like to learn more about the inner workings of clanks. I learned a few weeks ago that Little Mac may just win out on a good number of clank-based situations, so it still confuses me how each duration is handled.

 

[Tristan_win]

I messed around with clanking stuff a little bit earlier and it seems to be more complicated than damage. I had a Link Dash Attack (14 or 13%, depending on where you hit) clank with the back of a Link D-Smash (12-10% depending on where you hit) and they were able to shield on the same frame.

Peach Jab1 (2%) and Luigi Jab1 (3%) had Luigi shield a frame earlier, I think. Mario Jab1 (2.5%) and Luigi Jab1 (3%) were able to shield on the same frame.

Mario F-Tilt (7%) and Ness F-Tilt (10%) were able to shield on the same frame. Mario F-Tilt (7%) and the initial hit of ROB D-Smash (2%) were able to shield on the same frame.

This is just a theory but it's possible that when attacks clink they don't give the same amount of lag to both characters, even if they used a attack with similar speeds.

 

[AnchorTea]

Somebody needs to explain this. Can anybody read the moonrunes?

I used google translate and this came up:

You can also this air 4 expression that defeat the C stick from wearing dash inertia to the Hey Hey Mr. found the ground 4 expression NB [way] C discard the attack NB → in the direction facing in the direction opposite to that stick + opposite

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I used google translate and this came up:

You can also this air 4 expression that defeat the C stick from wearing dash inertia to the Hey Hey Mr. found the ground 4 expression NB [way] C discard the attack NB → in the direction facing in the direction opposite to that stick + opposite

We already figured out it was just wave bouncing on the ground.

 

[AnchorTea]

We already figured out it was just wave bouncing on the ground.

Awesome.

 

[Big O]

I messed around with clanking stuff a little bit earlier and it seems to be more complicated than damage. I had a Link Dash Attack (14 or 13%, depending on where you hit) clank with the back of a Link D-Smash (12-10% depending on where you hit) and they were able to shield on the same frame.

Peach Jab1 (2%) and Luigi Jab1 (3%) had Luigi shield a frame earlier, I think. Mario Jab1 (2.5%) and Luigi Jab1 (3%) were able to shield on the same frame.

Mario F-Tilt (7%) and Ness F-Tilt (10%) were able to shield on the same frame. Mario F-Tilt (7%) and the initial hit of ROB D-Smash (2%) were able to shield on the same frame.

I think if the attacks have different Hitlag Multipliers, the one with the smaller multiplier will get less lag during clanks. The element of the attack might also change things.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Apparently clanks have worked the same in past games, and it has always been variable primarily based on the damage of your own attack. Use your F-Smash to clank and you'll be frozen longer than someone using their F-Tilt, etc.

 

[Phill-Bot]

I can't seem to find anything on specific timing to execute the B-reversal technique.... I end up doing a forward B all the time. Is it more about tilting the control stick rather than timing?

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I can't seem to find anything on specific timing to execute the B-reversal technique.... I end up doing a forward B all the time. Is it more about tilting the control stick rather than timing?

Its more about timing. You literally have to press the opposite direction you are facing as soon as you press B.

 

[Phill-Bot]

Its more about timing. You literally have to press the opposite direction you are facing as soon as you press B.

So should I try to press B a bit before the direction or at the EXACT same time?

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

So should I try to press B a bit before the direction or at the EXACT same time?

The first one.

 

[Loota]

Does someone have experience in airdodges locking your momentum (in the same way that smash c-stick does) usually right after getting out of hitstun? I haven't yet seen a mention of it but it's really starting to get on my nerves since I'm sometimes unable to move sideways after airdodging right after hitstun ends, leaving me totally helpless. It only seems to occur when the first action after hitstun is an airdodge which is used a lot to avoid followups, which is exactly the reason why this is so annoying. Why does this happen and is there a way to avoid it consistently?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Does someone have experience in airdodges locking your momentum (in the same way that smash c-stick does) usually right after getting out of hitstun? I haven't yet seen a mention of it but it's really starting to get on my nerves since I'm sometimes unable to move sideways after airdodging right after hitstun ends, leaving me totally helpless. It only seems to occur when the first action after hitstun is an airdodge which is used a lot to avoid followups, which is exactly the reason why this is so annoying. Why does this happen and is there a way to avoid it consistently?

I think it's because you are able to airdodge earlier than you can do other options (which was also the case in Brawl), including the ability to drift. When you do that, you have to wait until it's over to be able to use all your other options.

tl;dr--Either wait until you could normally drift or airdodge without the ability to drift. It forces a decision of commitment on you.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Double-post for relative importance--

All Ledge Attacks have at least one frame of vulnerability (likely two) immediately before the attack comes out. Some characters must be attacked with a low/forward hit due to their positioning (Mario is very low during his vulnerability, for instance; other characters aren't quite off the ledge yet), but a well-timed anything will beat a Ledge Attack, period.

All Ledge Jumps also seem to have a couple of vulnerability frames before other actions become available, with vulnerability generally starting right as their hands leave the ledge. This makes them vulnerable in largely the same area that Ledge Attacks are vulnerable, though the difference in frame data is often around ten frames (Ledge Jump vulnerable ~Frame 13, Ledge Attack vulnerable ~Frame 23).

If you have a lingering hitbox, you should be able to beat both options. Ledge Climb is vulnerable around Frame 30-35 (for two frames somewhere between that range, varies between character), so trapping Ledge Jump/Ledge Attack and trapping Ledge Attack/Ledge Climb are two separate, realistic options that people can use to cover multiple options at once.

I would make a general thread about it, but I hate using such vague terms as "around Frame 13." If I could record 60 FPS to get the frame data, I totally would (2 frames before Shield is when the vulnerability starts).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Shield doesn't activate on the first frame of the input but has exactly one frame of start-up lag for all characters. Is this already known? I haven't seen any mention of it so far and would be surprised if nobody noticed it.

Double-post for relative importance--

All Ledge Attacks have at least one frame of vulnerability (likely two) immediately before the attack comes out. Some characters must be attacked with a low/forward hit due to their positioning (Mario is very low during his vulnerability, for instance; other characters aren't quite off the ledge yet), but a well-timed anything will beat a Ledge Attack, period.

All Ledge Jumps also seem to have a couple of vulnerability frames before other actions become available, with vulnerability generally starting right as their hands leave the ledge. This makes them vulnerable in largely the same area that Ledge Attacks are vulnerable, though the difference in frame data is often around ten frames (Ledge Jump vulnerable ~Frame 13, Ledge Attack vulnerable ~Frame 23).

If you have a lingering hitbox, you should be able to beat both options. Ledge Climb is vulnerable around Frame 30-35 (for two frames somewhere between that range, varies between character), so trapping Ledge Jump/Ledge Attack and trapping Ledge Attack/Ledge Climb are two separate, realistic options that people can use to cover multiple options at once.

I would make a general thread about it, but I hate using such vague terms as "around Frame 13." If I could record 60 FPS to get the frame data, I totally would (2 frames before Shield is when the vulnerability starts).

There's a lot of things with ledges that seem to be janky [even though I really dig the ledge mechanics of smash 4]. Not only are Ledge Attack and Ledge Jump vulnerable during startup but some ledge grabs also lack at least 2 frames of invincibility during the ledge grab animation. Apparently this only seems to affect characters who grab the ledge with a teleport move but I don't think anybody actually bothered to test it. We definitely need frame data for the ledge mechanics. Regular get up from the ledge in particular seems to have remarkably good frame data compared to the ledge jump that seems to be the weakest option on the ledge.

 

[Shaya]

Shield doesn't activate on the first frame of the input but has exactly one frame of start-up lag for all characters. Is this already known? I haven't seen any mention of it so far and would be surprised if nobody noticed it.

I thought shields were 2 frames for a long time, but frame 1 jab testing gave us the indication that they still were.

Essentially, the animation is 1.25 frames before a shield comes up, although I think moves hitting at frame 1 will still hit a shield.
In brawl the shield shows up at 1.00 (or 0.75 frames of 'start up').

 

[Shadow Blitz]

I'd like to learn more about the inner workings of clanks. I learned a few weeks ago that Little Mac may just win out on a good number of clank-based situations, so it still confuses me how each duration is handled.

I know it isn't quite what you are looking for, but I actually had Jiggs dash attack beat my charged ike up smash. I was perplexed and tested it, it turns out jiggs dash attack has properties similiar to aerials. If the initial hit clanks with something the attack keeps going and you can get hit by the weaker part, so jiggs dash attack beats almost everything. I wonder if other ground attacks got properties like this.

 

[Big O]

Double-post for relative importance--

All Ledge Attacks have at least one frame of vulnerability (likely two) immediately before the attack comes out. Some characters must be attacked with a low/forward hit due to their positioning (Mario is very low during his vulnerability, for instance; other characters aren't quite off the ledge yet), but a well-timed anything will beat a Ledge Attack, period.

All Ledge Jumps also seem to have a couple of vulnerability frames before other actions become available, with vulnerability generally starting right as their hands leave the ledge. This makes them vulnerable in largely the same area that Ledge Attacks are vulnerable, though the difference in frame data is often around ten frames (Ledge Jump vulnerable ~Frame 13, Ledge Attack vulnerable ~Frame 23).

If you have a lingering hitbox, you should be able to beat both options. Ledge Climb is vulnerable around Frame 30-35 (for two frames somewhere between that range, varies between character), so trapping Ledge Jump/Ledge Attack and trapping Ledge Attack/Ledge Climb are two separate, realistic options that people can use to cover multiple options at once.

I would make a general thread about it, but I hate using such vague terms as "around Frame 13." If I could record 60 FPS to get the frame data, I totally would (2 frames before Shield is when the vulnerability starts).

As far as I can tell, Ledge Jumps are the same as in Brawl, but with the ledge grab invincibility frames no longer carrying over if you jump asap. Since you can't buffer actions during a Ledge Jump, it is very hard to actually confirm when the IASA starts. Basically they seem to be invincible until the IASA kicks in. If you had a frame 1 invincible air option and good timing, you could potentially get through meaty attacks.

I haven't tested other characters, but for DK Ledge Climb only has 1 frame of vulnerability. His Ledge Attack has a 2 frame gap of vulnerability before the hitbox comes out.

Shield doesn't activate on the first frame of the input but has exactly one frame of start-up lag for all characters. Is this already known? I haven't seen any mention of it so far and would be surprised if nobody noticed it.

Shields are still frame 1.

 

[Loota]

I think it's because you are able to airdodge earlier than you can do other options (which was also the case in Brawl), including the ability to drift. When you do that, you have to wait until it's over to be able to use all your other options.

tl;dr--Either wait until you could normally drift or airdodge without the ability to drift. It forces a decision of commitment on you.

Oh I see, I didn't actually know that airdodges came up faster than other options in Brawl too, at least it didn't lock your momentum there when buffered. This clears it up and makes it infinitely more bearable when I know the cause of it and thus making it only a simple decision. However, you got me curious on the frame difference between being able to airdodge and all the other things, has any data been collected regarding the subject? Thanks anyways!

 

[LiVeR]

Yet again another video of RED [...]

This time he's showing some kind of extra custom moveset of each character that didnt make it into the game or was removed (?).
He supposedly achieved this by some kind of cheat code/hack.

So he finally posted the second part of this weird (custom?) move collection.
Its mostly missing visuals and or sound again. Hoped that it was something bigger like actual new moves added to the game via some moonrune hacks.

Video Description:
チャンネル登録お願いします。
Miiファイターももしかしたらあるかもしれません。

Google Translate: Subscribe please.
Mii Fighter also might be and maybe.

 

[Big O]

I know it isn't quite what you are looking for, but I actually had Jiggs dash attack beat my charged ike up smash. I was perplexed and tested it, it turns out jiggs dash attack has properties similiar to aerials. If the initial hit clanks with something the attack keeps going and you can get hit by the weaker part, so jiggs dash attack beats almost everything. I wonder if other ground attacks got properties like this.

Some attacks are programmed to behave this way http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore2/. Basically if the attack parameter right before before shield damage is set to zero, when it clanks it doesn't proc hitlag or cancel the animation so you keep going. It can still be outprioritized if the damage difference is 9+ though. Attacks like Jigg's dash attack and DK's smash attacks have this property. I don't know if this was in Brawl, but it is a nice addition.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

This time he's showing some kind of extra custom moveset of each character that didnt make it into the game or was removed (?).
He supposedly achieved this by some kind of cheat code/hack.

So he finally posted the second part of this weird (custom?) move collection.
Its mostly missing visuals and or sound again. Hoped that it was something bigger like actual new moves added to the game via some moonrune hacks.

Video Description:
チャンネル登録お願いします。
Miiファイターももしかしたらあるかもしれません。

Google Translate: Subscribe please.
Mii Fighter also might be and maybe.

Hmmm... very interesting.
Btw, I think the second line on the video description says: "Maybe then Mii Fighter".... Or I'm pretty sure that's why it means

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Anybody got info on jump squat frames? Unlike in Brawl they look pretty similar for most characters.

 

[Tristan_win]

I've just got done doing a fairly indepth look into Rage with Sheik
http://smashboards.com/threads/a-tr...ntrol-them-sheik-rage-research-thread.385409/

I'm not sure if other characters are effect so little by rage but it's a good starting point in figuring out this effect.

edit: brain hurts from staring at numbers so I fix a grammar error.

 

[saviorslegacy]

So I just found an odd slide with Sheik. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJBlfOtRTgM
I have no clue how to perform it. It isn't inertia landing because I turned around. I also tried to use DK in training mode to push me with his body when I grab and it didn't work there either. I remember trying to input a grab towards DK, not away from DK.
Also, this is not just a normal walking grab, Sheik does not go that far.
Any clues?

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

So I just found an odd slide with Sheik. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJBlfOtRTgM
I have no clue how to perform it. It isn't inertia landing because I turned around. I also tried to use DK in training mode to push me with his body when I grab and it didn't work there either. I remember trying to input a grab towards DK, not away from DK.
Also, this is not just a normal walking grab, Sheik does not go that far.
Any clues?

Its kinda hard to tell, but maybe you perfect pivoted a grab?

 

[saviorslegacy]

Its kinda hard to tell, but maybe you perfect pivoted a grab?

No, because I would have turned and faced DK when I would have grabbed. Also, I slid in the video, you wouldn't do that with a perfect pivot.

 

[Shadow Blitz]

I have a question about stale moves:
To my understanding in Brawl most jabs and some "jab-like" moves that required multiple inputs had each individual hit count seperately on the stale queue. Ex: in Brawl if you hit with all 3 parts of MK's f tilt, then that counts as 3 seperate moves on the queue. Mario's 3 hits jab combo (again, all three hits landing) would also count as 3 moves on the queue. I think even Snake's f tilt counted as 2 seperate moves if both hit. Multi hit attacks did not count each individual hit as one move, and some attacks were "too fast" to count as more than one move (ex: wolf pummel and MK/Marth D tilt spam).

Has anyone tested these jabs and "jab-like" moves to see if they function similarly on the staleness queue in Smash 4?

Has anyone tested this yet?

 

[Shaya]

I've sat down and started recording character's rolls + invincibility, have about half of them thus far.
However I'd still need to sit down and go through them frame by frame to get the results, perhaps others are willing to help?

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ebzzi0o3gtqi73l/AADVW-2p2xTD1UkV33oqNnb0a?dl=0

I've gotten the first two rows of the character select screen, will get others as a result of progress / time.

rec.mp4 = Mario
rec (xx).mp4 onwards is in character selection menu order starting from Luigi.

These may not be 100% accurate in every instance, it seems sometimes single frames came through twice, shielding animations being longer than a single frame also hurts (you have to assume that the IASA of the roll is not the frame before shield, but 2 frames before).

I'm using Villager's custom trip sappling to test invincibility on rolls. The order of actions wasn't consistent at first but most are Back Roll > Forward Roll > Forward invincibility > Backward invincibility
Things like roll lengths could be ascertained, and depending on 'luck' how much invincibility one has from a trip

Either way, as a starter

Character | Back Roll | Forward Roll
Mario | 17 / 29 | 19 / 29
Luigi | 19 / 30 | 18 / 29
Diddy | 16 / 27 | 17 / 27

Other recorded characters: ()()
TBR:

If someone has any tips / suggestions for easy frame by frame inspection I'd be all ears. I currently use photoshop to export frames and it's vastly superfluous bar the part where I'm splicing together a gif of a single roll for gathering roll lengths at a later stage (if you want to also make said gifs, that would be cool).

If you want to contribute actual files and have a dropbox account let me know.

[start up invincibility is a lot easier to test or just spot yourself, most are probably 4 frames]

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Not to make this any more tedious, but invincibility on trip options would be great, too, with the ubiquity of Diddy (and sourspot Wario Dash Attack, obv). I totally won a set yesterday that involved me avoiding a Diddy Up-B explosion with "trip get-up in place" into a punish.

 

[Big O]

@ Shaya I know there are some like DK, Ganon, Lucario, and Villager boards that have this stuff already. Perhaps you could save some time doing only the characters that don't have frame data.

 

[Dinotard]

I still don't really understand the concept of DI.
How do I use it properly?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

This is a video on Brawl, but the concepts are largely the same; the flexibility in angle is not as big in Smash 4, though.

http://youtu.be/sNNe3aR5bGc?t=1m30s

Don't worry about the stuff before that timestamp, and Part 2 and Part 4 no longer apply to Smash 4.

 

[Dinotard]

I'm gonna have to give this a try when I go back to playing. I was told so many different methods I wasn't sure what would work. But this is video evidence, so I'm gonna go for it. Thanks for the link.

 

[Shaya]

@ Shaya I know there are some like DK, Ganon, Lucario, and Villager boards that have this stuff already. Perhaps you could save some time doing only the characters that don't have frame data.

Well I wouldn't want to do the frame data for every character as it is. But for people without capture cards, I'm sure the recordings can be used to find them out properly

 

[ZHMT]

Is the jump squat/startup frames posted anywhere? I've been looking for it and I'm just curious where it stands in the series and I suppose it effects play so its somewhat important.

Edit: Didn't see Gheb's post because I'm dumb, oh well, I'm curious of this as well. Some people tested characters on the 3ds version and a few boards have theirs already. Villagers was 5 frames airborne on 6, Lucarios is 4 frames and airborne on 5.

I'm guessing Fox, Sheik, and Greninja will be the fastest, wondering if its a 3 frame squat, probably is.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Ledge/Corner Pivot Dash Slide

That's what this fellow coined it as, but I it's one heck of a mouthful there.

All the same this looks like a fun technique to use, I wonder if there will be actual application for it. It's a shame that such few characters can actually use it away from a ledge.