Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Thinkaman]

I would pay a very large amount of money to be able to assign neutral B (ignoring any stick input) to Z.

Lots of characters would like it, but Palutena and DHD would have a field day.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I found this video on Reddit, not sure if it's old news or not. (The fact that it was on Reddit means it probably is but oh well.)

The tl;dr is that when grabbing the ledge, there's a single frame of vulnerability before the invincibility frames kick in.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I imagine the positioning of that frame is different for every character, so going frame-by-frame would be excellent for it.

Also, here's my ledge-related stuff from earlier in video form--

 

[LionKeith]

I have crawled all over the internet looking for information about how to Nair with the Cstick.

While playing with my stick in smash, I have Naired and jabbed several times using the stick set to smash. All by accident.

Things people have told me that worked that I haven't seen replicated/been able to replicate (while set to smash):
Clicking the stick into the controller
Pushing the stick the opposite direction I am facing
Pushing the stick diagonally


What is the real method? There must be one. Has anyone figured it out?

 

[Thinkaman]

Pushing diagonally works on attack stick, but it's a narrow range.

 

[MrEh]

I found this video on Reddit, not sure if it's old news or not. (The fact that it was on Reddit means it probably is but oh well.)

The tl;dr is that when grabbing the ledge, there's a single frame of vulnerability before the invincibility frames kick in.

Hooray, I'm useful for once.

 

[StabbyStalfos]

I have crawled all over the internet looking for information about how to Nair with the Cstick.

While playing with my stick in smash, I have Naired and jabbed several times using the stick set to smash. All by accident.

Things people have told me that worked that I haven't seen replicated/been able to replicate (while set to smash):
Clicking the stick into the controller
Pushing the stick the opposite direction I am facing
Pushing the stick diagonally


What is the real method? There must be one. Has anyone figured it out?

This is my first time posting here, but I thought it important enough to comment on my experience doing a neutral air as Marth while using the C-stick. There are only two times where I'm able to do this. The first is during online matches where I try to do Marth's forward air on my opponent but a neutral air comes out instead. The only reason I can think to explain this is input lag and/or packet loss. The second way, that I've discovered to do consistently, is by dashing off the ledge of a stage and attempt to do a forward air flicking the C-stick. You have to dash and flick rather quickly without any delay at the ledge. For whatever reason my Marth always performs a neutral air every time I do this. Otherwise I don't see any other way of doing a neutral air with the C-stick set to smash.

For testing purposes, let me give you guys some background info so you can replicate it. I was able to do this while playing on the Pilotwings Omega Stage. I also use a Wii U Pro Controller.

 

[Shaya]

The second one is known since the 3DS and happened if you input a fair just as you were dashing off a stage IIRC.

 

[Lavani]

The second one is known since the 3DS and happened if you input a fair just as you were dashing off a stage IIRC.

I can verify this. Really annoying because it happens with ledge canceled attacks too, I kept getting unwanted nairs when I was testing combo potential for wizkick/warp ledge cancels.

Otherwise, what @ Thinkaman said.

 

[StabbyStalfos]

The second one is known since the 3DS and happened if you input a fair just as you were dashing off a stage IIRC.

Ah, I see. I wasn't aware of this in the 3DS version. I wouldn't really say I was good at tilts on the handheld.

One other thing I wanted to mention was that sometimes when doing forward airs using the C-stick without moving in the air, Marth sometimes hops forwards by himself. It's really random and it's impossible for me to replicate. I've tried holding down the C-stick and 1/4 circle motions. Is this only unique to Wii U pro controllers?

 

[Lavani]

Ah, I see. I wasn't aware of this in the 3DS version. I wouldn't really say I was good at tilts on the handheld.

One other thing I wanted to mention was that sometimes when doing forward airs using the C-stick without moving in the air, Marth sometimes hops forwards by himself. It's really random and it's impossible for me to replicate. I've tried holding down the C-stick and 1/4 circle motions. Is this only unique to Wii U pro controllers?

If you mean he starts moving forward when you input the fair, C-stick overrides the control stick inputs when set to smash attacks in this game. Setting C-stick to tilts should fix it, if you were wanting to use it for retreating aerials and the like.

 

[Empyrean]

I usually flick the c-stick fast enough so that I'm able to do retreating fairs while preserving most of my backwards momentum, but sometimes I experience the same thing @ StabbyStalfos is describing. It's kinda weird and I can't replicate it, Marth will just jump forward with fair, and holding back won't stop him or slow him down (despite the c-stick having returned to neutral). It happens most often when I repeatedly short hop fair, and sometimes with uair.

 

[StabbyStalfos]

What Empyrean is saying is what I'm talking about. It's really weird. No matter how I try to replicate it, it just seems like it's totally random. I haven't tried it yet on any other characters. Has anyone else experience this same issue with a different character?

Also, @ Empyrean do you use a Wii U Pro Controller or GC Controller?

 

[Empyrean]

What Empyrean is saying is what I'm talking about. It's really weird. No matter how I try to replicate it, it just seems like it's totally random. I haven't tried it yet on any other characters. Has anyone else experience this same issue with a different character?

Also, @ Empyrean do you use a Wii U Pro Controller or GC Controller?

A Wii U Pro.

 

[SuperSalamence]

Is there a guide to every character's frame data for their air dodges? Like the duration of invincibility, the IASA frame and the length of the animation.

 

[Thinkaman]

Is there a guide to every character's frame data for their air dodges? Like the duration of invincibility, the IASA frame and the length of the animation.

We currently don't have this information. Full-body invincibility is stored in the animation files (or some other external location) it seems.

 

[Give.]

This is my first time posting here, but I thought it important enough to comment on my experience doing a neutral air as Marth while using the C-stick. There are only two times where I'm able to do this. The first is during online matches where I try to do Marth's forward air on my opponent but a neutral air comes out instead. The only reason I can think to explain this is input lag and/or packet loss. The second way, that I've discovered to do consistently, is by dashing off the ledge of a stage and attempt to do a forward air flicking the C-stick. You have to dash and flick rather quickly without any delay at the ledge. For whatever reason my Marth always performs a neutral air every time I do this. Otherwise I don't see any other way of doing a neutral air with the C-stick set to smash.

For testing purposes, let me give you guys some background info so you can replicate it. I was able to do this while playing on the Pilotwings Omega Stage. I also use a Wii U Pro Controller.

The first situation is pretty intrusive. There are some matches where it seems every other c-stick input is a jab. I thought I was going crazy because I couldn't replicate it offline, so I agree that it appears neutral attacks on the smash setting only happen online.

The second situation I never knew about. Do you know if this can happen with a back air as well? I run off of the stage and back air quite a bit but I haven't had this happen yet. Seems troublesome nonetheless.

 

[StabbyStalfos]

The first situation is pretty intrusive. There are some matches where it seems every other c-stick input is a jab. I thought I was going crazy because I couldn't replicate it offline, so I agree that it appears neutral attacks on the smash setting only happen online.

The second situation I never knew about. Do you know if this can happen with a back air as well? I run off of the stage and back air quite a bit but I haven't had this happen yet. Seems troublesome nonetheless.

Yes, this also happens with Bairs with my Marth as well. I'm starting to wonder if this is some kind of bug unique to Wii U Pro Controllers.

Edit: I'm sorry I misread what you were referring to. I think it still works the same way. I was told this was a mechanic that's been in the game since the 3DS version. I was referring to when Marth sometimes hops forward when doing Fairs while attempting to jump in place. Bairs do the same thing too.

 

[Muro]

Is there any solution or work around for the c stick messing aerial momentum issue?

 

[smashkng]

Is there any solution or work around for the c stick messing aerial momentum issue?

All there is as of right now is setting the C stick into attack, which will make you tilt instead of smash attacking when hitting the C stick, but the C stick won't kill your momentum anymore. So you'll have to get used to that if you don't want to learn to hold the C stick for 1 frame.

 

[Muro]

All there is as of right now is setting the C stick into attack, which will make you tilt instead of smash attacking when hitting the C stick, but the C stick won't kill your momentum anymore. So you'll have to get used to that if you don't want to learn to hold the C stick for 1 frame.

Thanks man, I might just do that.

 

[Thinkaman]

Man, I wish the c-stick was better implemented. From Brawl it's two steps forward, two steps back.

 

[B0SHI]

Just wanted to share something I noticed, I don't know if anyone else has noticed it as well but certain characters can actually chain grab in this game to some degree. A good example is Mario, typically you can use Marios Dthrow once and even though
the enemy will be right in front of you, there is some delay nintendo added to make Chain grabs "Impossible". You can overcome this, however, by Dthrowing and then hitting neutral A to hitstun your opponent as well as return them to a standing position and hitting grab again, the neutral A (a quick jab) cancels the lag and the end of the grab preventing another grab, allowing you to quickly jab, grab, dthrow, quickly jab, grab, dthrow ETC. After some experimentation I have found that doctor Mario can do this as well with a down tilt instead of neutral A, and luigi with a forward tilt. Kirby can do a variant of this with Dthrow Neutral A as well but its harder to control because enemies can escape a lot easier from that move then mario, dr. mario or luigi's dthrows.
Toon link can Kind of chain Uthrows into each other, when you Uthrow with Toon link the enemies will get sliced with a slight backward momentum, you can Uthrow and turn with a pivot, and grab and Uthrow again. There doesn't seem to be a need with Toon link for a standard attack to do so. I do not think this is practical with typical link.

 

[Artmastercorey]

Just wanted to share something I noticed, I don't know if anyone else has noticed it as well but certain characters can actually chain grab in this game to some degree. A good example is Mario, typically you can use Marios Dthrow once and even though
the enemy will be right in front of you, there is some delay nintendo added to make Chain grabs "Impossible". You can overcome this, however, by Dthrowing and then hitting neutral A to hitstun your opponent as well as return them to a standing position and hitting grab again, the neutral A (a quick jab) cancels the lag and the end of the grab preventing another grab, allowing you to quickly jab, grab, dthrow, quickly jab, grab, dthrow ETC. After some experimentation I have found that doctor Mario can do this as well with a down tilt instead of neutral A, and luigi with a forward tilt. Kirby can do a variant of this with Dthrow Neutral A as well but its harder to control because enemies can escape a lot easier from that move then mario, dr. mario or luigi's dthrows.
Toon link can Kind of chain Uthrows into each other, when you Uthrow with Toon link the enemies will get sliced with a slight backward momentum, you can Uthrow and turn with a pivot, and grab and Uthrow again. There doesn't seem to be a need with Toon link for a standard attack to do so. I do not think this is practical with typical link.

Very cool

 

[Radical Larry]

Quick question, has anyone found out why Captain Falcon will go off stage with the opponent whenever Dash Grabbing on the ledge?

Like, he and the opponent are both dragged off the stage as he is pummeling them. Can someone tell me if there is or isn't a name for it yet?

 

[Lavani]

Not sure if there's a name for that, but Falcon isn't the only character that can do it. Pummeling lets you slide off the ledge and forces a grab break, I've seen it used by Meta Knights and Palutenas for nair stagespikes.

 

[Radical Larry]

Well, I think there should be a name for it by now, right?
I think Dash Grab Plummet or Grab Edge Fall? I don't know, but it needs a name if it doesn't have any.

 

[Shaya]

It's Edge Cancelling (much like air dodges, specials, etc). There's now newer instances of actions that allow you to do this.

 

[Radical Larry]

That's quite the mediocre name for it, if you ask me. But thanks a lot for informing me of what it was.

 

[Shaya]

Well you're literally 'cancelling' a move/action by using the engine's transition states between land/air in and around the edges of platforms or stages.

 

[B0SHI]

It seems Fox has the special ability of being able to ledge grab multiple times with the firefox up b move, the sweetspotting of the ledge with fox is very easy to accomplish making it a practical ledge guard tactic. I have achieved a couple kills with this technique and you can ledge hog opponents with lesser recoveries into missing the ledge with their up b recoveries. The last string of comments about the Falcon ledge mechanics brought this to mind, could be helpful for fox mains in a more competitive perspective.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

Sometimes when I perfect pivot, I end up facing the direction I moved towards instead of back towards my initial position. I'm almost certain that I'm not moving the stick in that direction to be causing my character to turn around. Can anyone tell why this is happening and how I reproduce it consistently?

 

[CarbuncleHero]

So I noticed pikachu's perfect pivot can let pikachu perform a sliding fsmash forward with pretty decent range. I tried it with a few other characters, none of them slid but only got very slightly more range over their SS fsmash, so I thought the slide was a pika-specific tech.

As it turns out, I've noticed two other characters get significant range with pp fsmash:
Bowser jr, but he doesn't actually slide even though he moves forward a lot (or maybe it's a quick slide), and
Shulk's buster, jump, and speed arts (the distance ascending in that order). Shulk's smash monado art get's as much as ss fsmash and no slide, and normal and shield arts do nothing. (This is wrong I just made mistakes; speed slides more, shield less, the rest slide the same.)

I haven't tested all of the characters so there might be other sliding fmashes.
Also, sliding reverse up/dsmash can be done as well by more than just these three characters using the same tech.
**I can't seem to post a link for visual reference but there's a link in the thread on the pika boards that has a few gifs nvrmd there was a workaround i hope that isn't against any rules...

 

[goatdude18]

How do I DI? What is it?

 

[Azazel]

If anyone is still confused about the buffering system, I'm here to clarify.

1) New buffering now limits the amount of buttons inputs to 1. In brawl you used to be able to do stuff like BDACUS or simple stuff like buffer a double jump > Aerial.
In this game you can't buffer DJ > aerial which can be frustrating, frame perfect Aerial > DJ > aerial is now very difficult.

You also can't buffer multiple directional inputs, So this inhibits the ability to buffer Dash attacks since an instant dash attack is
>(+)

Also because of this, if you attempt to buffer multiple inputs, different inputs have different priority,

Zair > specials > Zcatch/item toss > airdodge > attack > jump

Jump has lowest priority, if you attempt to buffer jump and attack: attack comes out
If you try to buffer Airdoge and attack: airdodge comes out
etc. etc.

2) You now buffer multiple actions from one input if it is instantaneous, Sheiks needles and Diddy's peanut popgun are good examples. or Links Zdropped bombs.

when you cancel Sheik's needles, since the cancel instantaneous, you also buffer an airdodge. But according to the chart I provided above specials and Items have higher priority than airdodge; therefore you can avoid doing an airdodge if you input a special as well, or if you have an item in hand, throw instead.
This means Sheik can bouncing fish to cancel needles.

Since Zdropping a bomb is instantaneous, Link will always buffer a Zair, but Zair has the highest priority so you can't beat it with another input.

Diddy kong is a special case since it is possible to avoid buffering an airdodge. His peanut gun has a quirk where you can Hold Shield even before you use peanut gun and it willl cancel peanut gun. Also the start up frames are longer than 10 frames, so if you hold shield before the buffer window, you're golden.

 

[Azazel]

I usually flick the c-stick fast enough so that I'm able to do retreating fairs while preserving most of my backwards momentum, but sometimes I experience the same thing @ StabbyStalfos is describing. It's kinda weird and I can't replicate it, Marth will just jump forward with fair, and holding back won't stop him or slow him down (despite the c-stick having returned to neutral). It happens most often when I repeatedly short hop fair, and sometimes with uair.

This is because jump actually gives you some momentum if you press forward or backwards, IE givng you distinct hops, Forward, neutral, and backwards hops. A good example of this is charizards sliding rocksmash.
C-stick is a macro for a direction and attack, but the new C-stick is no longer a 1 frame tap, it is for how long you hold the stick. So when you did the Fair, it gave you the jumping forward jump, instead of a retreating jump, or neutral jump.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Found this video on the intertubes earlier today. It's an official NOJ video showing off some basic and advanced techniques.

Linky.

Spoiler: Embedded Video

I don't understand a word of Japanese, but from watching the video and noting the inputs, I put together a list of the topics they seem to be discussing. Nothing a competitive player won't know about, but it's interesting that they're choosing to publicly show some of these off.

1. Kill in all 4 directions
2. Charging smash attacks
3. Meteor smashes
4. Item tossing
5. Down smashes hit both sides
6. Side roll, spot dodge, air dodge
7. Perfect shielding
8. Jump and grab OOS
9. Clashing attacks
10. Item catching
11. DI (!!!)
12. Teching
13. Getup actions: stand, roll, attack
14. Ledge actions: attack, stand, roll, jump
15. Short hop
16. Fast falling
17. Fast fall through platforms
18. Footstool jumps

 

[AnchorTea]

Does anyone else do this trick?:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9IMXTwdYnwU#

I've only seen only one person do this out of all the thousands of smash players I fought.

Im just curious if anyone else does this...

 

[Kofu]

Does anyone else do this trick?:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9IMXTwdYnwU#

I've only seen only one person do this out of all the thousands of smash players I fought.

Im just curious if anyone else does this...

It's fairly common, especially for moves that autocancel out of a low jump. You can do it with aerials other that NAir as well (Dedede's BAir and Ganon's DAir in Brawl are textbook examples). Most aerials don't auto cancel unless used immediately after jumping and rolling your thumb from X or Y to A is just the best way to do it. I can guarantee that even if you haven't noticed it, lots of players use it.

 

[-RedX-]

http://vine.co/v/OXv9wh5qYeb

What kind of magic is this?