Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[BCE]

theres any rule about when a Up B will pass trought the ledge or when the char will instantly grab the ledge ? i can think otherwise that this is random -_-

 

[Shaya]

We haven't been able to spot the command in the data we have now,

but in Brawl there was a flag in all recovery moves which indicated when a move was capable of grabbing a ledge.
For Marth, his dolphin slash attack/recovery started frame 5, but the flag that allowed him to grab the ledge is from frame 8.
So in other words, could not grab the ledge between frames 1-7.

So yeah, it's different windows. Plus there's also a "grab box" which needs to overlap with the ledge first before it can happen.

Holding "down" will make you pass through ledges.

 

[ThisIsIt]

on the wii u version if you input normally what you would do you for a b reversal in the air but instead with the grab button you can do a sliding backward standing grab. the input is the same as a regular pivot grab but the timing is a bit more strict and this one only works when standing still. pretty interesting since some characters slide different lengths than others + some characters have different lag frames on their standing vs running grabs.

 

[Dissent]

Item Tilting: Down+C-Stick Forward with item in hand produces a forward tilt.

It didn't exist in Brawl, but smashing with an item did (Which also conveniently works still).

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Heyo, I had an interesting thing occur, but cannot test it without extra players... which I don't have. Anyways, here's what went down: I (ZSS) was playing one of the event matches and was playing vs Robin and Mega Man. I was at about 15% and was struck by el thunder, then by Mega Man's uair. The result? ZIP~ Straight up to instant death.

I don't know if it has to do with stun state (el thunder) and wind boxes (Mega Man uair) that create this, but maybe someone can check it out and see if the result can be replicated.

 

[XalchemistX]

The Smooth Lander badge auto L-cancels. The stats is different for each one, so a +3 version of the badge is best. The decreased stats can be neutralized with another item.

This could be a new approach for more competitive matches

 

[Pazx]

Hey Shaya, would a thread containing true combo data for each character be acceptable for this section? I've compiled data for ~10 characters so far through my own testing and I've noticed some of the boards have plenty of information regarding strings and combos (Greninja, Pit) and some have almost none whatsoever. A single thread with information for each character (and links to already established threads in certain character boards) would help develop underused characters and make this information we seem to care so much about far more accessible. Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask, I thought I should ask before I made a thread in case you'd prefer my findings in the competitive impressions thread or on each specific character board.

 

[Shaya]

I think helping those character boards individually would be better!
Going to be hard to have combos/strings lists for every character in a single topic.

 

[Ilandria]

Hey, I have a quick question about a tech I'm able to do whenever I want, but I don't understand what is causing it to happen... I'm hoping someone could explain the mechanics behind this for me or point me to somewhere that explains it (I've done some searching but I really don't know the terms I'm looking for so I had no luck).

I've only tried this with Robin (3ds and Wii U) but it seems like it's probably a universal thing. Basically if you do an aerial b-reversal (or even the usual b-reversal input, but in the wrong direction) immediately before you land, when you hit the ground your character will roll almost instantly in whatever direction you did the reversal, as if you did a standard shield-roll after landing just without any landing lag...? For the life of me I can not figure out why using that input causes a roll, and on top of that why I can't do it with side-b, up-b, down-b, or any a-attacks.

Sorry if this info is easy to find for the more experienced!

 

[Dekar173]

Hey, I have a quick question about a tech I'm able to do whenever I want, but I don't understand what is causing it to happen... I'm hoping someone could explain the mechanics behind this for me or point me to somewhere that explains it (I've done some searching but I really don't know the terms I'm looking for so I had no luck).

I've only tried this with Robin (3ds and Wii U) but it seems like it's probably a universal thing. Basically if you do an aerial b-reversal (or even the usual b-reversal input, but in the wrong direction) immediately before you land, when you hit the ground your character will roll almost instantly in whatever direction you did the reversal, as if you did a standard shield-roll after landing just without any landing lag...? For the life of me I can not figure out why using that input causes a roll, and on top of that why I can't do it with side-b, up-b, down-b, or any a-attacks.

Sorry if this info is easy to find for the more experienced!

you're rolling because it's a charge move.

 

[Funtroon]

Can someone tell me of what exactly is a pivot grab and how to perform it? Also, I'd like to know the difference between a normal standing grab and a pivot grab in terms of properties.

 

[the great gonzoles]

did anyone see the glitches for smash wii u

 

[erico9001]

Using the right analog stick set to Smash attacks restricts movements on land and in air while the stick is pressed in a direction. It also stops tap jumping, pressing the A button, and grabs (puts up a shield instead). You can do neutral B but not any directional B attacks, suggesting that the inputs of the joystick in any direction are completely blocked out.

However, if the right analog stick is set to plain "attack," the only thing that is restricted is tap jumps (up B does work). You are free to move in the air as freely as you want while pressing down on the c-stick. Unfortunately, there is an issue with having it set to "attack," and that is for some reason when pressing left midair it sometimes does your N-air instead of doing your Bair or Fair. It is only when pressing left though, which is odd.

I only tested this with the Pro controller and gamepad - not gamecube

Was this previously known? It could have some implications for how people play the game.

 

[Hon Si Zi]

Is there a place with comprehensive frame data? I keep getting linked to this database site that I have no idea how to read when I look into it.

 

[kataridragon]

I kinda have a specific question.

In training mode after a spike/meteor into the ground where the cpu fails to tech will the computer get up on the first possible frame?

Some specifics:
Mid damage, air to air hit, small bounce, character lands on back.

Thank You in Advance!

 

[LawofDeath]

Is there a place with comprehensive frame data? I keep getting linked to this database site that I have no idea how to read when I look into it.

The only one that exists around here (from what I know of ) is the landing lag frame data. Note that some may be outdated since update/Wii U version.

http://smashboards.com/threads/all-character-landing-lag-frame-data.371503/

 

[Shack]

Is there any footage online yet of some of the melee pros playing like Ken, KDJ, etc?

 

[C4-]

Using the right analog stick set to Smash attacks restricts movements on land and in air while the stick is pressed in a direction. It also stops tap jumping, pressing the A button, and grabs (puts up a shield instead). You can do neutral B but not any directional B attacks, suggesting that the inputs of the joystick in any direction are completely blocked out.

However, if the right analog stick is set to plain "attack," the only thing that is restricted is tap jumps (up B does work). You are free to move in the air as freely as you want while pressing down on the c-stick. Unfortunately, there is an issue with having it set to "attack," and that is for some reason when pressing left midair it sometimes does your N-air instead of doing your Bair or Fair. It is only when pressing left though, which is odd.

I only tested this with the Pro controller and gamepad - not gamecube

Was this previously known? It could have some implications for how people play the game.

I believe in brawl when specials were set to c stick you could do the neutral special by pushing the c stick at any 45 degree angle for example pushing the c stick right in between up and foward would allow you to do the neutral move, maybe this can be applied to your situation ?

 

[LawofDeath]

Is there any footage online yet of some of the melee pros playing like Ken, KDJ, etc?

I suggest you watch this thread where videos are listed; http://smashboards.com/threads/gameplay-videos-of-each-character-1-04-videos-only-please.376378/

There are some videos of Hungry Box for example.

 

[hariooo]

So why is everyone so excited about pivoting and fox-trotting if those mechanics are so technically demanding that they'll inevitably be a technical barrier to casuals? I thought that was one of the primary concerns that all moves should be easy and intuitive to the benefit of playing smarter.

Especially the stuff where dash dancing (a simple left right left right) is now some bizarrely complex multiple pivot thing and people are going crazy about it.

 

[Shaya]

Well... there's a difference between glitches (DACUS) and expanding upon intended mechanics (directional air dodging: i.e. wave dashing).
The game can be as technical as it wants to be. At the very least what we're achieving in those 'technical areas' is consistent and makes sense.

Otherwise be careful with the wording, you're sounding like you're trying to be an aggressive ****ter.

 

[Shack]

So why is everyone so excited about pivoting and fox-trotting if those mechanics are so technically demanding that they'll inevitably be a technical barrier to casuals? I thought that was one of the primary concerns that all moves should be easy and intuitive to the benefit of playing smarter.

Especially the stuff where dash dancing (a simple left right left right) is now some bizarrely complex multiple pivot thing and people are going crazy about it.

Everyone is excited because it adds a new element of mobility to the game. DD and Pivots allow you to perform moves from a dash which opens up more mind games. It also helps create some depth considering almost all fighting games have soem kinf od advanced techniques that require practice (SF4 has Focus Attack Canceling, MvC3 has wave dashing and all kinds of set ups, etc.)

Also, no one is forcing you to use advanced techniques. If you want to play casually with friends, then you most likely wont even realize that AT are there anyway. They will only have an impact on tournament level players who like to play competitively.

 

[hariooo]

Everyone is excited because it adds a new element of mobility to the game. DD and Pivots allow you to perform moves from a dash which opens up more mind games. It also helps create some depth considering almost all fighting games have soem kinf od advanced techniques that require practice (SF4 has Focus Attack Canceling, MvC3 has wave dashing and all kinds of set ups, etc.)

Also, no one is forcing you to use advanced techniques. If you want to play casually with friends, then you most likely wont even realize that AT are there anyway. They will only have an impact on tournament level players who like to play competitively.

And we've gone full circle.

 

[Shack]

And we've gone full circle.

How so? Are your questions not:
1. Why are people hyped over Perfect Pivots and Dash Dancing?
2. Wasn't the game was created to "intuitive" aka no AT?

1. People are hyped because it gives more mobility which makes the game more fun by opening up more options.
2. We don't fully know because they still have short hop fast falling and air moves that auto cancel which is a technique that beginners have a lot of trouble with, but add to the complexity of the game. We also have For Glory 1 on 1 mode which is on Final Destination with 2 stocks and no items for people who want to play seriously.

Is your question still not answered?

 

[hariooo]

Well it was a rhetorical question really. Half the people who like Smash 4 go on and on about how they're more intellectual and now they don't have to spend 10 years training their tech skill to beat people they're smarter than but inevitably there's AT's people go crazy for anyway.

 

[Shaya]

Well it was a rhetorical question really. Half the people who like Smash 4 go on and on about how they're more intellectual and now they don't have to spend 10 years training their tech skill to beat people they're smarter than but inevitably there's AT's people go crazy for anyway.

That's a load of bull **** and you're exaggerating what any "intellectual" has said. You're blinded by a bias that's excruciatingly toxic, even if every post you make isn't of seedy nature; shape up or ship out. The game is as it is, it isn't going to change and getting continually more upset (or whatever emotion you're feeling) at the more widespread consensus agreeing on a particular strain of logic that you do not comply with is just wasting people's time.

This room isn't for complaining. You can have a circle jerk of people who dislike the game in another part of the website / your inner circle on facebook.

 

[hariooo]

I'm not exaggerating at all. That's the spirit of many posts on this board and if you're complaining about the circlejerk then you should lay off the self-righteous posts of who belongs where.

 

[Shaya]

If you haven't noticed, we have standards set for this section which Smashboards management have agreed to. We're not here for repetitious mind numbing complaining. If you're not capable of much else, no you don't belong here and I'm very willing to enforce that.

If there's some sort of "melee is bad, smash 4 for lyf, smash 4 is better in every way!" stuff being proliferated around here (I haven't seen much/any) then I'll act harshly upon it too, as the conversation in itself doesn't produce anything but angst. We're here to understand, learn and get better at Smash 4. To the extent of which understanding permits cross over conversation is a shady line, but if it's the same person with the same reasoning making virtually the same post over and over at the antagonism of others they don't agree with then vision gets much clearer.

We can talk about this further in PMs if you would like to. But otherwise, comply/reject, the result of either is already set.

 

[hariooo]

Is this supposed to be you making a public example of me? If you wanted to deal with this through PM's then you would have PM'd me. Don't make a public proclamation of how reasonably you want to deal with this when you're the one who started out by calling me an "aggressive ****ter". You're behaving the worst in this thread so far. I suppose the standards enforced for posts from someone like you is higher (read: actually lower).

 

[Smooth Criminal]

If you have the temerity to sit there and make all these passive aggressive remarks about the state of these boards/this game in particular, then a moderator has every right to come in and tell you what's up. It's incendiary/inflammatory/loaded/you get the ****ing idea.

You probably should have read the mission statement that's stickied here in this part of the forums. I think it explicitly says something to the effect of not condoning the kinda behavior you're espousing at the moment.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Nargacuga]

I see everyone saying this, and I'm sorry, I'm new to the smash competitive scene, but what is an AT?

 

[Shaya]

An "Advanced Technique", you can find a lot of definitions for terms here

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-smash-dictionary.374538/

 

[rED023b]

Are people using fight pads in tournaments, or is it illegal? I want to use one because I can't find an affordable Gamecube adapter.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I don't see why you wouldn't be able to.

Smooth Criminal

 

[rED023b]

I thought TOs didn't like classic controllers because of wireless interference or something

 

[Smooth Criminal]

The one you linked was wired, tho'. Wasn't it?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Epok]

The Smooth Lander badge auto L-cancels. The stats is different for each one, so a +3 version of the badge is best. The decreased stats can be neutralized with another item.

This could be a new approach for more competitive matches

Actually there is a Smooth Lander Brawn Badge that is a set value that works on every character. It can take as low as 15-20 min to unlock.

 

[rED023b]

The one you linked was wired, tho'. Wasn't it?

Smooth Criminal

No, it wasn't.

 

[BSP]

Can someone tell me of what exactly is a pivot grab and how to perform it? Also, I'd like to know the difference between a normal standing grab and a pivot grab in terms of properties.

A pivot grab is when you're dashing in one direction, input a grab, and input a turnaround immediately after. If you do it correctly, your character should immediately turn around and grab.

Compared to standing grabs, pivot grabs tend to have more range with less ending lag, and some of them come out quicker than their standing grab counterparts. For example, with Pac Man, if you pivot grab, the beam comes out much quicker than if you do a standing grab.

 

[san.]

I'm astonished if this hasn't been mentioned yet, but DACIT is still in. can go the full length of Smashville with it. However, I can only get it to work with an upthrow. I couldn't get it to work with a forward or back toss like in Brawl. EDIT: After many tries, I got it to DACIT with a forward throw! It's very hard to do with him.

This is DACIT:

However, can throw forward + slide with DACIT (does upthrow animation, bomb goes forward. Normal forward thow is easier) with a decent slide and no lag.

Also may have "discovered" a useless tech. If you have an item in and and pivot+DACIT simultaneously, you slide forward without throwing the item! Unfortunately.. your character is stuck doing nothing for 1-2 seconds for some reason.