Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[ItoI6]

i recall seeing a google doc with shield safety data (like certain move is -7 on shield or so and so) a while back, does anyone still have link?

+ the new shieldstun formula as well

 

[teluoborg]

ItoI6 you mean this one or that one ?

 

[Daymaster]

After a ledgetrump, exactly how many frames is it until the one who was trumped can act?

 

[Zionaze]

Been playing Zss and corrin and noticed that my paralyzer and DFS sometimes doesn't stun at all on hit. It looks like they superarmored through it. What causes this to happen?

 

[LancerStaff]

Been playing Zss and corrin and noticed that my paralyzer and DFS sometimes doesn't stun at all on hit. It looks like they superarmored through it. What causes this to happen?

Actual Super Armor, DIing the projectile down, maybe something with trample... What move was it?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

After a ledgetrump, exactly how many frames is it until the one who was trumped can act?

29. There's an excellent recap of ledge trump mechanics just on the previous page.

 

[David Viran]

Been playing Zss and corrin and noticed that my paralyzer and DFS sometimes doesn't stun at all on hit. It looks like they superarmored through it. What causes this to happen?

You might be trying to stun them twice in the air without them touching the ground.

 

[Zionaze]

You might be trying to stun them twice in the air without them touching the ground.

Yea after watching several replays it seems like thats what i was doing

 

[Daymaster]

The ledge grab frame is part of the 20 frame ledge hold. Ledge trump happens on frame 21, you input ledge get up/ledge drop on frame 22, and ledge get up/ledge drop happen on frame 23. There's also 2 frames before ledge hold where your character is reaching for the ledge and magnet handing towards it. This is also the 2 frame ledge vulnerability. It doesn't apply if you're grabbing the ledge from above.

Does this mean that once you gab the ledge, you can't do anything for 22 frames?
EDIT: NVM, I awnsord my own question.

 

[Masonomace]

Question: Is any of this frame data correct?


Jumpsquat: 6 frames
SH Air Time: 37 frames
FH Air Time: 55 frames
Doublejump Air Time: 55 frames
Hard Landing Lag: 4 frames(?)

Ledge Attack: Intangibility= 1 - 16 | Hitbox Active= 19 - 21(?) | Damage= 7 | FAF= 56
Ledge Getup: Intangibility= 1 - 33 | FAF= 35
Ledge Jump: Intangibility= 1 - 12 | FAF= 14(?)
Ledge Roll: Intangibility= 1 - 26 | FAF= 50



Jumpsquat: 4 frames
SH Air Time: 38 frames
FH Air Time: 54 frames
Doublejump Air Time: 59 frames
Hard Landing Lag: 4 frames(?)

Ledge Attack: Intangibility=1 - 21 | Hitbox Active= 24 - 26(?) | Damage= 7 | FAF= 56
Ledge Getup: Intangibility=1 - 33 | FAF= 35
Ledge Jump: Intangibility=1 - 12 | FAF= 14(?)
Ledge Roll: Intangibility=1 - 21(?) | FAF= 50

 

[HoSmash4]

What are the factors that determine whether a move will crossup a shield?

 

[I speak Spanish too]

What are the factors that determine whether a move will crossup a shield?

If they end up behind the opponent before shield stun wears off.

 

[Megamang]

So basically, natural movement of the move, how late you start the move when moving towards their shield, and the opponent's traction.

There are also times when you are SHing through someone's shield and you bair and it pushes them with the bair, allowing you to appear like you'll land in front but suddenly move them so they will (ideally) whiff a shieldgrab. This is mostly move dependent, more powerful bairs and less traction = a further push so more leeway.

 

[OrganicOrange]

Hi guys, I'm new to the competitive scene of Smash 4. While I was watching this video on YouTube, I noticed at 2:19 that Ranai survives Rosalina's meteor smash. Instead of plummeting straight down, he instead gets flung up and to the left of the stage in which he wall techs. How does he do this?

 

[Lavani]

Hi guys, I'm new to the competitive scene of Smash 4. While I was watching this video on YouTube, I noticed at 2:19 that Ranai survives Rosalina's meteor smash. Instead of plummeting straight down, he instead gets flung up and to the left of the stage in which he wall techs. How does he do this?

He doesn't get hit by the meteor. He gets hit by Luma, which is a 45° launch, and being behind Luma launches him toward the stage instead of away.

 

[OrganicOrange]

He doesn't get hit by the meteor. He gets hit by Luma, which is a 45° launch, and being behind Luma launches him toward the stage instead of away.

Oh, my mistake. I should've researched more into the move. Just automatically assumed that the down air is always a meteor smash. Thanks for the reply.

 

[Megamang]

Many meteors in smash 4 have this property, requiring a ,sweetspot' to spike. Some characters can utilize the horizontal launch of sourspots to net early horizontal kills offstage, when a spike wouldnt kill (like on a villager).

Just a small fyi and tangent, and a little terminology. Welcome to smash!

 

[Materialized JSON]

I want to use down angled ftilt cuz it beats every recovery snap in the game when timed properly :<

Could you crouch with c-stick in lower angle and wait then (assuming it's for bowser)?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Could you crouch with c-stick in lower angle and wait then (assuming it's for bowser)?

Nah cuz he starts crawling.

 

[Materialized JSON]

Nah cuz he starts crawling.

Apologies for my ignorance. Sadly, I also tried crouching and then rotating into lower angle for ftilt. If I do it reasonably fast (out of reaction) it would still come out as an fsmash (assuming that is what you are trying to prevent). I actually think the fsmashes come out since I over-rotated, but to control the rotation I also inevitably have to slow down the stick motion.
However, I had semi reliable success for c-stick down-angled ftilts on bowser. It seems if you could hit the edge between the diagonal and forward direction RELIABLY, then you would also performed the desired tilt. But again, that might not help with your case...
EDIT: nvm, it seems to be way more specific than just in between the two corners. I had much more success rotating from down to the adjacent corner than using c-stick afterwards.

 

[Megamang]

Youre probably better off just learning to do it with A plus direction IMO, a little practice and itll come easily.

 

[Fanttum]

With everyone so salty about 's counter I have some fresh math questions.

I'm speculating here, but let's say a fresh move hits the counter, then it gets it's counter damage multiplied, then it has it's own freshness bonus. Would then that damage be used in the knock back calculations?

Basically I'm wondering if the original damage gets modified 3 different.

 

[Shaya]

I've collected some data on using actions during hitstun. I tested this by using Pikachu's straight ftilt on another Pikachu at various percents. The number is the first frame you can use that action during knockback.

| 50% | 60% | 70% | 80% | 90% | 100% | 110% | 120% | 130% | 140% | 150%
Jump + Specials | 34 | 37 | 41 | 44 | 48 | 51 | 55 | 58 | 62 | 65 | 68
Aerials | 34 | 37 | 41 | 44 | 46 | 46 | 46 | 48 | 53 | 58 | 63
Air Dodge | 34 | 37 | 41 | 41 | 41 | 41 | 41 | 41 | 44 | 49 | 54

Is there any chance tumble mechanics may have been altered in this latest patch?
(We have a Marth telling us fast fallers can't air dodge out of down throw up air)

 

[Vipermoon]

(^ that isn't me btw guys. I don't believe in Dthrow)

While we're bringing things up, I was actually coming here to ask about rage. Did anyone make sure rage wasn't weakened? It feels like Marth's Uthrow isn't as strong with rage.

I'll test it myself but I'd like support.

 

[Masonomace]

While we're bringing things up, I was actually coming here to ask about rage. Did anyone make sure rage wasn't weakened? It feels like Marth's Uthrow isn't as strong with rage.

I'll test it myself but I'd like support.

The Shulk boards have a kill percents thread using Mario as the testing character for Rage at 0%, 50%, 100%, & 150%. We used no DI & had Mario display the Deadly Blow spark effect at the earliest percentage. I can test kill percents & get back with this.

EDIT: I don't see a change in Rage on my end. Shulk got that +0.5% damage buff to his tilts & aerials, so I used Fsmash uncharged angled up & with 100% Rage Shulk, I still KO'd Mario from center stage of Omega Gaur starting at ~84% (As in, Mario was at 84% before being hit).

At 150% Rage, Shulk's Fsmash uncharged KO'd Mario from center stage of Omega Gaur starting at ~85%. In the kill percent thread though, it shows Mario dies at 86%. Then again, we all used different methods of racking up percents such as Lucario pummeling, my Falco Burst Blaster method (1.05% fresh each bullet), etc.. So a 1% is very meh.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Is there any chance tumble mechanics may have been altered in this latest patch?
(We have a Marth telling us fast fallers can't air dodge out of down throw up air)

Marth could always Dthrow Uair light weight fast fallers exclusively, so I don't see a correlation.

 

[Shaya]

It wasn't real at kill percent, let alone past very early percents.
(Should've stated "and kills", mb)

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

It wasn't real at kill percent, let alone past very early percents.
(Should've stated "and kills", mb)

I suppose I could run some tests and frame count hitstun on pre-patch later tonight. I've looked at Marth's Dthrow to Uair in the past, you could true combo it from 0-80% on sheik using just the training mode counter. Of course, at those higher percents, they can hitstun cancel, and 80 wasn't quite high enough for the tipper followup to kill anyway. The move was slightly buffed in damage, but not enough that I expect it to make such an amazing difference.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Alright, I didn't make as many values as the Pikachu Ftilt test, because Marth's Dthrow has extremely low KBG (50) so I don't need to do the test every 10%, there would be so little variance. It also never fails to put the victim in tumble, so there's no enlightening point where we see the effects of hitstun cancelling as the opponent begins entering tumble. Here's the 1.13 Hitstun suffered when Marth Dthrows Sheik at 0/50/100% in training mode with no DI and is using the following options:

Double Jump (maximum hitstun): 43/48/53
Aerials: 43/46/47
Air Dodge (minimum hitstun): 41/41/41

Marth has 25 endlag after Dthrowing Sheik. This may have changed now that Sheik is a point lighter. The point where I start counting frames (for endlag and for hitstun) is the frame Sheik has sustained damage. Because this is a throw that only deals damage once on release, there's no hitlag frames you need to count around, but it's important I state where 1 is. And if nobody is around to do the 1.14 test, I'll do it in a few days. I've been keeping my Wii U from being updated on the off chance we catch a lead for some change in the update. And it's been 72 hours since that had last happened.

So, what's the deal with 41 frames of hitstun anyway? Is it just this game's version of the 13 minimum hitstun you suffered in brawl when air dodging? And we know there's a point where you have to suffer more than that even when air dodging, but the knockback has to be so large that you're put uncomfortably close to the blastzone.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Question: Is any of this frame data correct?


Jumpsquat: 6 frames
SH Air Time: 37 frames
FH Air Time: 55 frames
Doublejump Air Time: 55 frames
Hard Landing Lag: 4 frames(?)

Ledge Attack: Intangibility= 1 - 16 | Hitbox Active= 19 - 21(?) | Damage= 7 | FAF= 56
Ledge Getup: Intangibility= 1 - 33 | FAF= 35
Ledge Jump: Intangibility= 1 - 12 | FAF= 14(?)
Ledge Roll: Intangibility= 1 - 26 | FAF= 50



Jumpsquat: 4 frames
SH Air Time: 38 frames
FH Air Time: 54 frames
Doublejump Air Time: 59 frames
Hard Landing Lag: 4 frames(?)

Ledge Attack: Intangibility=1 - 21 | Hitbox Active= 24 - 26(?) | Damage= 7 | FAF= 56
Ledge Getup: Intangibility=1 - 33 | FAF= 35
Ledge Jump: Intangibility=1 - 12 | FAF= 14(?)
Ledge Roll: Intangibility=1 - 21(?) | FAF= 50

This is all correct except that the FAF for both of their ledge jumps is 13, not 14.

Alright, I didn't make as many values as the Pikachu Ftilt test, because Marth's Dthrow has extremely low KBG (50) so I don't need to do the test every 10%, there would be so little variance. It also never fails to put the victim in tumble, so there's no enlightening point where we see the effects of hitstun cancelling as the opponent begins entering tumble. Here's the 1.13 Hitstun suffered when Marth Dthrows Sheik at 0/50/100% in training mode with no DI and is using the following options:

Double Jump (maximum hitstun): 43/48/53
Aerials: 43/46/47
Air Dodge (minimum hitstun): 41/41/41

Marth has 25 endlag after Dthrowing Sheik. This may have changed now that Sheik is a point lighter. The point where I start counting frames (for endlag and for hitstun) is the frame Sheik has sustained damage. Because this is a throw that only deals damage once on release, there's no hitlag frames you need to count around, but it's important I state where 1 is. And if nobody is around to do the 1.14 test, I'll do it in a few days. I've been keeping my Wii U from being updated on the off chance we catch a lead for some change in the update. And it's been 72 hours since that had last happened.

So, what's the deal with 41 frames of hitstun anyway? Is it just this game's version of the 13 minimum hitstun you suffered in brawl when air dodging? And we know there's a point where you have to suffer more than that even when air dodging, but the knockback has to be so large that you're put uncomfortably close to the blastzone.

I've got you covered.

I'm assuming from what you said that you counted '1' on frame 15 of Marth's D-throw animation as that is the frame that damage is dealt.

Marth is able to act on the 25th frame if you count from 1 as indicated above. If what you mean earlier is that there are 25 frames of actual lag and that Marth was able to act on the 26th frame, then this is a difference as you predicted.

For the following, I will assume that you were talking about e.g. 41 frames of actual hitstun, with the first frame Marth is able to airdodge upon being frame 42, and so I'll follow that format.

Double Jump (maximum hitstun): 43/48/53
Aerials: 43/46/47
Air Dodge (minimum hitstun): 41/41/41

And it's all the same ^. So the only thing to change is Marth being able to act 1 frame sooner.

 

[Felth]

When a character stands from the ledge (Pressing the stick towards the stage) there's a specific time in which the character loses the invulnerability. I want to know if this time is the same for all characters, or if there's a table with the corresponding times for each character.

 

[Pazx]

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/LedgeGetup

Each character has 2 frames of vulnerability at the end of their ledge getup animation. It is different for each character.

 

[Vipermoon]

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/LedgeGetup

Each character has 2 frames of vulnerability at the end of their ledge getup animation. It is different for each character.

It's actually 1 frame of vulnerability cuz you know... FAF.... (see what I mean KuroganeHammer )

 

[Shaya]

Hmm, so basically, there may be up to 1 frame more leeway for Marth (and likely everyone else with weight based throws) for his throw follow ups against Sheik/Zero Suit Samus (maybe Rosa, Sonic too).

But this is still not going to allow Marth to get guaranteed follow ups from them for much longer, let alone at kill percent.

15 frames to follow up to 16 shouldn't be suddenly breaking the match up wide open.

 

[Vipermoon]

Hmm, so basically, there may be up to 1 frame more leeway for Marth (and likely everyone else with weight based throws) for his throw follow ups against Sheik/Zero Suit Samus (maybe Rosa, Sonic too).

But this is still not going to allow Marth to get guaranteed follow ups from them for much longer, let alone at kill percent.

15 frames to follow up to 16 shouldn't be suddenly breaking the match up wide open.

I can't see Marth, after you subtract jumpsquat, reliably Uairing people in a little more than 10 frames before they get their air dodge out.

 

[LancerStaff]

I think there was some kind of Smash 4 knockback calculator somewhere... Anybody care to drop a link? While I'm at it, I'm wondering how exactly the Sakurai Angle works.

Shaya Vipermoon
I'm pretty late for me right now but against Bowser I get 22 2 frame advances with Dthrow, max. Pre and post patch of course. Pretty sure it's just Sheik's weight. Also found my old 3DS that I thought my kid brother took and convinced my buddy to lend his copy of Smash until Bayogeddon is over so I guess I can test Marth stuff for awhile but we should keep it to the Marth forums.

 

[Locke 06]

Hi.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ssb4_esr/status/697295542158635008

First thought was that Pika's grab box was grabbing too far in front of her or she's too tall and the way she stands with her legs split causes a lack of hurtbox for him to grab.

But neither of those make much sense. Help pls.

 

[Pikabunz]

Hi.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ssb4_esr/status/697295542158635008

First thought was that Pika's grab box was grabbing too far in front of her or she's too tall and the way she stands with her legs split causes a lack of hurtbox for him to grab.

But neither of those make much sense. Help pls.

http://esports-runner.com/ssb4/bayonetta_bagu/

This site says something about part of Bayonetta's hurtbox moving into the z-axis when she shields. It happens with Pikachu, Ness, Lucas, Greninja, Pacman, Sonic, and Sheik.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Hi.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ssb4_esr/status/697295542158635008

First thought was that Pika's grab box was grabbing too far in front of her or she's too tall and the way she stands with her legs split causes a lack of hurtbox for him to grab.

But neither of those make much sense. Help pls.

Nah it's just b/c her legs are spread af so the grabboxes go between them when she's shielding lolol

 

[teluoborg]

Pikachu failing to grab someone because it hits too low ? Words can't describe how sweet this irony is to me.